Maybe I deserve it???/Our discussion (Follow up)

[Ms. Donna]

So last night, my wife and I are watching "So You Think You Can Dance" and 'Jamie' came on. She described herself (after her performance) as a 'gender chameleon' - living sometimes as a man and sometimes as a woman. I gave her a lot of credit for being so open about herself on television. Anyway, we're watching, and my wife comes out with "Is that a guy or a girl?" Already I could feel the knot on my gut. After she asks again, I tell my wife, "Well, you'd have to ask her."

My answer did not go over well as I got a disapproving look from her.

Jamie completed her performance, explained herself and was told that she will not be moving on to the next round. As she is leaving, my wife says to me, "That's what you need, to meet someone like that. Maybe you'd be happier."

Why does she say crap like this? Doesn't she realize how much that hurts me?

Or maybe that's the whole point - she does it because she knows it hurts me.

The super-brief background: I told my wife about myself before we got married - to the extent that I understood myself. She was accepting enough and we had some fun with it. Then, I found out that I really didn't know myself as well as I though. While not as big a surprise as her not having known anything, the results of this were quite 'stressfull' nonetheless.

This isn't something we have fun with anymore. While she is accepting, I think she views it as a necessary evil at this point. She said to me many times that she probablly made a mistake and really has no business being married to someone like me - I get 'mistaken' as a girl often enough when we are out and I know that it bothers her. And yet with all of this, most of the time, though, she tells me she loves me.

It's not like this is a secret and it's not like she pretends she doesn't know. She's just not interested in really trying to understand this. She views half of this as nonsense and the other half as 'my problem': she didn't sign up for this - she feels that there are other more important things in life that she needs to be concerned about.

Every so often, she'll show some interest. I have been working on a book and she asked to read it. There was nothing in there that she didn't already know and she read 'most of it' - I don't think that she actually finished it. :( Her overall opinion: I don't move through life as easily as she does. No sh*t! Her suggestions to me were to make it more like a novel - more interesting 'characters'. I had to explain that as a memoir, its not supposed to be a work of fiction. :sigh: I had hoped that maybe by reading it, it would spark some discussion - maybe some additional interest... Nada. :(

Which brings me back to my question: why does she go out of her way to be hurtful? My answer to her question as to Jamie's 'gender' was a valid one: I don't know how she identifies her gender. If my wife actually understood this stuff, she wouldn't have been so annoyed by my answer.

If she understood me, she wouldn't make the comments she does.

I supposed she feels justified to some extent - life with me has been less than easy. While I was 'finding myself' some eight or so years back, I was not quite the ideal husband as I was less than supportive to her then. Selfish, self absorbed and self loathing - that was me. It seems I'm still paying the price and, in all likelyhood, I will be for the rest of my life.

I'm at a point where I accept myself: who I am and what I am - and I'm not ashamed of it. For me, it was no easy task - I spent close to 24 years of my life hating myself and pretending to be something I wasn't. I spend two solid years coming to terms with all of this. I'm finally comfortable with myself - odd as that self may be.

All I want is a little happiness for myself: not a lot - just a little.

Am I asking for so much? Am I making my wife's life that miserable that she can't just let me be? Every day, I feel just ever so slightly more worn down: eventually there'll be nothing left.

I understand and espouse the importance of communication, but there seems to be a lack of it here at home - at least with respect to this topic. I feel like the cobbler's children.

Which, I suppose, is the answer to my question. If I were answering this, I'd be telling myself to sit down and talk with my wife.

If it only were that easy...

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Stephenie S]

Yes dear,
You are asking questions that you should be asking your wife. It may very well be she did not intend to be hurtful, but she does deserve to know how you feel. If you want her to know, you have to tell her.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[~Kitty GG~]

If my wife actually understood this stuff, she wouldn't have been so annoyed by my answer.

If she understood me, she wouldn't make the comments she does.

I understand and espouse the importance of communication, but there seems to be a lack of it here at home - at least with respect to this topic. I feel like the cobbler's children.

Which, I suppose, is the answer to my question. If I were answering this, I'd be telling myself to sit down and talk with my wife.

If it only were that easy...

Love & Stuff,
Donna

She doesn't understand. So really the q is "why not?"
And are both of you gonna just keep on like this?
Might not be easy.. but its not the hardest thing in the world either.. imagine she had a terminal illness. Would you both work to understand that? And find the best way to manage it..

Things aren't always easy.. but they are often very simple.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[Marla S]

This sounds sad, but familiar.
I don't know if talking about "the issue" here is the key. It can't harm but I wouldn't expect to much of it.
You already opened the door, she looked though, but obviously didn't go through - and maybe never will.
That's something tons of literature and arguments can't force.



Why does she say crap like this? Doesn't she realize how much that hurts me?

Or maybe that's the whole point - she does it because she knows it hurts me.
Probably both of it and I'd add another.

You don't realize that she is hurt and wanted to tell you this.


Maybe the reason for it is something totally different, but as people tend to blame the most obvious she assigns it to "the issue"

Well, I have no advise, but feeling similar (and helpless) right now.

Wish you the best.

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Kitty,

She understands it 'enough' to know that this is not some choice on my part - to know that I have lived with this all my life. While a 'deeper' understanding would be nice, I think the issue is on a more fundamental level: being with someone 'like me' is just not something she really wants out of life.

The problem, for me, is the mixed signals: sometimes she's OK with it all (or seems to be) and other times it seems to really bother her. I guess (know) it's the somewhat 'ambiguous' nature of my appearance. I believe that if I were a 'traditional' crossdresser, it would be easier for her: I'd be a 'man' publicly and a 'woman' in the off hours. Instead, she has me. :(

Things aren't always easy.. but they are often very simple.
Very true. Thanks! :)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Rikkicn]

I'm sure you'll get lots of interesting and useful advice here. Mine comment is that NO you don't deserve it. Our partners are the ones we should be able to look to for support and understanding.
If what you get is hurt instead then it might be best to rethink your relationship and find someone who will love you no matter what.
I wish love, happiness and joy,

Rikki

[Ms. Donna]

You don't realize that she is hurt and wanted to tell you this.

I know she's hurt. All this came to a head when she was 5 month pregnant with our second daughter.
Emotionally I should have been there for her - I wasn't.
Physically I should have been there for her - I wasn't.

I fu*ked up and have no one else to blame other than myself.

Payback truly is a bitch.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[bredalee25]

Maybe the two of you should talk to a therapist and get an impartial view on this. Ask your wife if she would at least talk to one. Maybe she needs the help and you don't. Maybe if she could talk to someone alone about this she could come to terms with it. I know there's alot of maybes in my advice but it's the only term I know to use in this case. I myself am still in the closet as far as my gf is concerned the rest of my familt knows about my dressing. She knows that I dressed before and thinks i've stopped.

ttfn

[~Kitty GG~]

So she understands, but she doesn't understand.

You weren't there for her, now she's not always there for you.

Is this how both of want things to continue forever and ever, amen?

If not then why aren't the two of you working on the issues? Counselling.. Communication..

Just ignoring the elephant doesn't make it go away. You've already come out to her. Its not like you are afraid to do that for fear of losing her. So why not find out what she missing in the relationship. Letting her know what you're missing. And finding a way to manage both of your unique personalities? If its something that you just CAN'T or WON'T give eachother, then that's an answer too.

You have this forum to vent in.. What outlet does she have?

What future goals and dreams do you share?

When you look back in ten years time what will you think of your life?

We don't always get what we deserve. Working toward a solution is always more productive then feeling sorry for what we don't have.

You're not just sitting here whining and blaming her. You're looking for solutions. I admire that!

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[DonnaT]

No one deserves to be hurt, whether intended or not. Been there and got the virtual bandaid to prove it.

Not being there to hear the tone of the conversation makes me wonder why she said: "That's what you need, to meet someone like that. Maybe you'd be happier."

Was it because of how you answered her question or was it because she believes you are no longer happy to be with her?

If my wife had made that kind of comment I would have immediately responded with, "No, I'm happy with you because I love you!"

You didn't mention how you responded, other than that it hurt you. It doesn't matter to us here how you responded. It only matters to your wife and yourself.

If she thinks you are unhappy with the relationship and wasn't responding to the tone of the converstion, you need to let her know your true feelings. All of them. Likewise, she needs to let you know hers. Talk to each other, and listen.

[Sophia Rearen]

The super-brief background: I told my wife about myself before we got married - to the extent that I understood myself. She was accepting enough and we had some fun with it. Then, I found out that I really didn't know myself as well as I though. While not as big a surprise as her not having known anything, the results of this were quite 'stressfull' nonetheless.

This isn't something we have fun with anymore. While she is accepting, I think she views it as a necessary evil at this point. She said to me many times that she probablly made a mistake and really has no business being married to someone like me - I get 'mistaken' as a girl often enough when we are out and I know that it bothers her. And yet with all of this, most of the time, though, she tells me she loves me.

It's not like this is a secret and it's not like she pretends she doesn't know. She's just not interested in really trying to understand this. She views half of this as nonsense and the other half as 'my problem': she didn't sign up for this - she feels that there are other more important things in life that she needs to be concerned about.

I'm at a point where I accept myself: who I am and what I am - and I'm not ashamed of it. For me, it was no easy task - I spent close to 24 years of my life hating myself and pretending to be something I wasn't. I spend two solid years coming to terms with all of this. I'm finally comfortable with myself - odd as that self may be.



Hi Donna,
Maybe she is just trying to understand herself? Is her tone and questioning just a part of the process?

[Ms. Donna]

So she understands, but she doesn't understand.

You weren't there for her, now she's not always there for you.

Is this how both of want things to continue forever and ever, amen?

If not then why aren't the two of you working on the issues? Counselling.. Communication..
Because 90% - 95% of the time, things are OK. As I said, she (seems) fine about most of this most of the time. It's the little digs now and then that do it to me. It's almost like a reminder - don't get too comfortable.


Just ignoring the elephant doesn't make it go away. You've already come out to her. Its not like you are afraid to do that for fear of losing her. So why not find out what she missing in the relationship. Letting her know what you're missing. And finding a way to manage both of your unique personalities? If its something that you just CAN'T or WON'T give eachother, then that's an answer too.
True enough. I already know part (most) of what's missing - she wanted a 'man' and she got me. It's not that she doesn't love me - I know she does - but I'm sure that given the opportunity to go back and do it again, she wouldn't be doing it with me.

I guess the other part is plain old fear of the truth. Fear of hearing her say it to me again what she did eight years ago, and still not knowing what to say back to her.


You have this forum to vent in.. What outlet does she have?

What future goals and dreams do you share?

When you look back in ten years time what will you think of your life?

We don't always get what we deserve. Working toward a solution is always more productive then feeling sorry for what we don't have.
What will I think of my life...

Compared to other possible lives: it sucks - it always has and always will. Being trans amounts to a cruel joke played on unsuspecting kids. We go through life with the equivalent of a 'Kick Me' on our backs until we die.

I'll look back and realize that all things considered, it wasn't that bad - not the best - but not bad.

As to getitng the life I deserved - I suppose that's all a matter of perspective.



You're not just sitting here whining and blaming her. You're looking for solutions. I admire that!
See, that's the thing: I don't blame her at all. I'm trans, not her. I'm the one not comfortable in society, not her. I'm the one who seems to be constantly 'finding' themself, not her.

And when we met and married, I'm the one who appeared to be something I was not... not her.

Blaming her I'm not. But whinging I am.


I know we need to talk - but for all my insight, advise and such, bog knows I can't seem to do it.


Am I a hypocrite or what... :(


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Ms. Donna]

Not being there to hear the tone of the conversation makes me wonder why she said: "That's what you need, to meet someone like that. Maybe you'd be happier."
I think she thinks that that's what I want - that being with someone 'trans' would make my like easier - happier.


You didn't mention how you responded, other than that it hurt you. It doesn't matter to us here how you responded. It only matters to your wife and yourself.
I've learned to let her make her comments and move on. I suspect that she's completely forgotten about it by now. Me... Well we know what I'm doing.


If she thinks you are unhappy with the relationship and wasn't responding to the tone of the converstion, you need to let her know your true feelings. All of them. Likewise, she needs to let you know hers. Talk to each other, and listen.
I know - believe me, I know. Like I posted to Kitty, I just haven't worked up the intestinal fortitude to revisit my life from eight or so years ago.


Hi Donna,
Maybe she is just trying to understand herself? Is her tone and questioning just a part of the process?
Haven't heard from you in ages - I thought you bailed on us!

She understands herself - and me - well enough. In the list of 'life priorities', being 'involved' with my trans-issues just isn't in the top half of the list.


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[bobbipoet]

Was it because of how you answered her question or was it because she believes you are no longer happy to be with her?

If my wife had made that kind of comment I would have immediately responded with, "No, I'm happy with you because I love you!"

You didn't mention how you responded, other than that it hurt you. It doesn't matter to us here how you responded. It only matters to your wife and yourself.

I agree with DonnaT - she could very well have been fishing for a response from you - she might be unsure of what you are thinking and poking - poking hard - to find out.

Could be she is afraid your response might have been "yeah, you are right, that would be better" when what she is really looking for might have been "no, i dont need that, i want to be with you."

While the question might have been hurtful, i would suggest you ponder whether your response (or lack thereof) might also have been hurtful - to her.

[~Kitty GG~]

Because 90% - 95% of the time, things are OK. As I said, she (seems) fine about most of this most of the time. It's the little digs now and then that do it to me. It's almost like a reminder - don't get too comfortable.

If most of the time, things are only OK.. That wouldn't be good enough for me.



True enough. I already know part (most) of what's missing - she wanted a 'man' and she got me. It's not that she doesn't love me - I know she does - but I'm sure that given the opportunity to go back and do it again, she wouldn't be doing it with me.

That fine.. but she's stayed with you.. So why not find out why. Find out what you have to work with. What you can make better. Find out why she does the little digs. Something must set them off. I'm advocating both of you learning about the other and learning to understand.




I know we need to talk - but for all my insight, advise and such, bog knows I can't seem to do it.


Am I a hypocrite or what... :(


Love & Stuff,
Donna

No, you're not a hypocrite. You're trying to work things out.
Hang in there :hugs:

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[kittypw GG]

Ms Donna,
I am sitting here at my desk beside myself with tears and grief for your situation. I can so relate to your situation. Have you ever heard of the saying "hurt people hurt people"? I think a little of that is going on. You said you were not there for her during her pregnancy? That would hurt a women straight to the core. It is one of the most emotional times in a women's life. You let her down and you have acknowledged that. But is that enough? I can't really put my thoughts into words that would do my feelings justice.
I read your side of things and I feel deeply for you and I think that my hubby could have written your words exactly. I would never want him to feel this way but yet sometimes I can't help myself nor the way that I feel. The difference in my situation is that some of my husband's bad behavior continues and is not in the past. Most of the hurt gets blamed on the crossdressig but my rational mind knows that it is other issues realted to human nature. (selfishness, obsession, anger, self esteem etc)

When your wife made the comment "That's what you need, to meet someone like that. Maybe you'd be happier" To me this is a cry for help and a testiment to her self esteem. It sort of says that she believes she is not good enough or at least feels that way. For someone to continue to dwell on the crossdressing issues like she does, must mean that she places a lot of her own happiness in your hands. This is just not fair to you. I would kill for my husband to be as interested in self discovery and be as articulate about his feelings as you Donna. Your wife needs to walk down your path to her own self discovery. Once she fullfills herself and highers her own self esteem she will be more able to hold her head up in her own right and realize that you don't make up who she is. You are supposed to compiment eachother not be responsible for eachothers inner happiness. I think that my husband places at lot of responsibility on me for his happiness and it is an unfair burden. When I pulled back because of the weight of it he felt that I had changed. I pulled back because it couldn't go on the way it was forever. I was loosing the me I have alway been. I hope this is making sense.

I do think that your wife needs to seek some therapy. She needs to take a look at herself and discover the beauty within. Once she realizes that peace and happiness comes from within then she can look you in the eye as a equal and you can start to compliment eachother. She needs to give up the past and move forward. (myself included, us gg's want to hang on till our knuckles turn white) You need to help her Donna. Break the patterns. Start a revolution. Be her hero but insist that she move forward with helping herself.
Good luck and :hugs: Kitty



Jamie completed her performance, explained herself and was told that she will not be moving on to the next round. As she is leaving, my wife says to me, "That's what you need, to meet someone like that. Maybe you'd be happier."

Why does she say crap like this? Doesn't she realize how much that hurts me?

Or maybe that's the whole point - she does it because she knows it hurts me.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Ms. Donna]

I am sitting here at my desk beside myself with tears and grief for your situation. I can so relate to your situation. Have you ever heard of the saying "hurt people hurt people"? I think a little of that is going on.
Please don't be in tears on my account - that wasn't my intention. :(

I'm familiar with "hurt people hurt people" and I know that there is some of that at work here.


I can't really put my thoughts into words that would do my feelings justice.
FWIW, that about sums up what it's like when we try to explain how it feels to be Trans.


Most of the hurt gets blamed on the crossdressig but my rational mind knows that it is other issues realted to human nature. (selfishness, obsession, anger, self esteem etc)
Very true. When I was seeing my therapist, she told my wife and I (yes, we did a few couples sessions) that same thing: most often, the issues are not about crossdressing, but manifest themselves as a result thereof.


When your wife made the comment "That's what you need, to meet someone like that. Maybe you'd be happier" To me this is a cry for help and a testiment to her self esteem. It sort of says that she believes she is not good enough or at least feels that way. For someone to continue to dwell on the crossdressing issues like she does, must mean that she places a lot of her own happiness in your hands. This is just not fair to you.
I don't think that's it. See, she doesn't dwell on it. I'm sure that she only thinks about it when it winds up 'In her face' so to speak. See, even today, we have been out - nothing special - and no comments, no looks - and I'm no different today than any other day. There's just been nothing to trigger her more 'deeply rooted' annoyance at all of this.


I would kill for my husband to be as interested in self discovery and be as articulate about his feelings as you Donna.:o Thanks. However, too much deep thought and introspection brings with it it's own issues: e.g.this thread. Q.E.D.



You need to help her Donna. Break the patterns. Start a revolution. Be her hero but insist that she move forward with helping herself.
My wife follows a pattern not unlike that of her interaction with her mother - and she knows she does this. They have an 'uneasy' relationship and she will sometimes slip into the same M.O. With me - unconsciously it seems. Yea, she has some issues, but not as deep as you read into them. I have known her now about 23 years and have a prety good read on her.

What we need to do is have serious heart to heart. We need to be honest as to where we see each other in one another's lives. I suspect we're not that far part - otherwise we'd not still be together.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[kittypw GG]

Please don't be in tears on my account - that wasn't my intention. :(

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Donna,
I was in tears more because you touched that feeling in me that makes my husband feel like you. I am so sad sometimes at the hurt that we have put eachother through. We are struggeling, as well, to find some way to be happy. One should not have to sacrifice all for the other. I didn't want to make you feel that I pity you. I just related to your plight. Thanks for sharing Donna. When people share their stories we all grow a little. Kitty

[Ms. Donna]

I am so sad sometimes at the hurt that we have put eachother through. We are struggeling, as well, to find some way to be happy.

Sartre is quoted as saying "Hell is other people." - to a large extent he's right. We do cause eachother a lot of hurt - both unintentionally and intentionally. I hurt my wife, not just by 'not being there' for her eight years ago, but by not being who she thought I was - who she was counting on me to be. Like I said, she didn't sign up for this but this is what she got - and at the end of the day, the 'blame' falls on me. She didn't 'push' me into being trans or 'drive' me to crossdress: no, this is alll on me - no way to pass the buck even if I wanted to.

I have a bad habit of dwelling on things - looking for more meaning then there really is. This could be the case here. Yesterday was fine: did our things, the girls went off to a sleepover at a friends house, and the wife and I went out, rented a few movies, hit the gorcery store for a bit and went home to have dinner and watch a movie. No looks, comments - none of the nonsense. All was well - as it is most of the time. But for me, the every so often comments can undo all the 'no problems' times in a flash.

I've come to see it as her way of 'coping'. Even before all of this, when we would fight, she would say nasty things. Over time, I learned that I cannot take to heart what she says when she's mad and she's told me as much herself. It's when the comments come 'out of the blue' like the other night that they cut fast and cut deep - and leave me hanging, waiting for the other shoe to drop. And even though I've rationalised it as a coping mechanism (isn't it wonderful how we can rationalize anything to ourselves) it still hurts nonetheless. :(

So much for rationalizing...


I didn't want to make you feel that I pity you. I just related to your plight. Thanks for sharing Donna. When people share their stories we all grow a little.

I can be hard on myself and when I look at some of my 'problems' in life and then look at what other go through - people in truly bad situations - mine pale by comparison. I didn't take it as pitty as mine is far form a pitiful life.

I believe - no, I know - that I'd not be where I am today were it not for sharing in the experiences of others - good and bad - and sharing my own. Outside of each other, there is no 'support' system to which we can turn: no self help books (not that I'd buy them anyway :p), 12 step programs, etc. It's just us - trying to get through this life as best as we can.

Thanks (to all) for caring and sharing.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Joy Carter]

Your an intelligent and caring person Donna you have shown that here. So you made a mistake in the past whoop-tee-do, why waist time on it come to terms with her because this will only get worse until she realizes what she'd really doing to the both of you. My SO went out on me when the kids were small It was an issue for a few months but I forgot about it and moved on. I can say that was the hardest pill I ever had to swallow. Love her to death "AND STUFF" ! :D

[Ms. Donna]

Last night, my wife and I were watching Brokeback Mountain. I didn't really want to watch it - gay themed movies just aren't my thing. But, she picked out the movie so we put it on. About 20 min in, when they decide to 'get it on' in the tent, my wife - surprised - asks "What are they, gay?" I stop the movie and ask her, "You're kidding, right?" It seems that for all the press the movie received, she never picked up on the fact the the main characters were gay and that the movie was about their lifelong relationship and struggles together. So, we watch the movie, with her joking about it now being the 'gay cowboy movie'. I ask the to please knock it off, which she does.

It was a good movie and I can see why it won the awards it did. As I watched it, I know that I got something very different from it than my wive did. She, of course, identified with the wife of the one character who was gay: how hard it was for her discover that her husband was like this. Like I didn't see that coming.

Me, I saw people who had to hide who they really were, who had to 'pretend' to be people that they weren't. People who in the end either wound up dead for being true to themselves, or living painfully alone.

Were we watching the same movie? :(

At the end, my wife asks me, "Did you like it?" I told her that I thought is was a good movie. She then said something with respect to the main characters and 'my people'. This is a term she uses a lot: 'my people' meaning anyone gay, lesbian or trans living an 'alternative lifestyle'. Well, that was the springboard - unintentionally - for a discussion.

I'll not go into a blow by blow of our brief talk Saturday evening but here the gist is the same as it's always been: it's embarasing to be out with me - to have people refer to us as 'ladies'. And to her, much of this comes across as nonsense.

The following is most of a PM I sent to another member here as it sums much of this up pretty well:


See, on a day to day basis, we really are fine. I don't 'dress up', I don't go out at night or on weekends, and my girls (8 & 12) are quite used to daddy - after all, they have grown up with me as I am. Most of the 'CDing' factors simply are not there as an issue. What is there is the "I married a man - not a... whatever!"

It might almost be easier if I did the 'dress up' thing as there might be a clearer line of demarcation between Gary and Donna. Instead, what my wife has is someone who is straddling the line, as it were. And what I would like to think is 'acceptance' is probably, in truth, more tolerance than anything else.

It's not like we have a bad relationship: we don't. But every now and again, seemingly out of nowhere, will come a comment - usually accompanied by a look of disgust. It's as if she has built up a head of steam and needs to release it - then afterwards, we back to normal.

I don't pretend that this is easy and I do not blame her for feeling the way she does. You can find posts from me made in 1998 where I say the same thing. If anything, I'll defend her right to not accept this (how twisted is that?) She is just as 'entitled' to be happy as anyone else.

When things were really bad about eight years ago, I thought to myself "You know what buttons to push - if you really want to be 'cut free', you can do it." The thing is, that isn't what I wanted then or now. But I can't help but wonder if it wouldn't have been the right thing to do - for her. She would have hated me and I'd probably not get to see my kids, but maybe - in the long run, she would have been happier. And now, I almost wish she would get fed up and kick my ass to the curb - again, more for her own sake then anything else. But at this point in our lives (both 42, married for 19 years this year) it's not likely.

I take all the blame in this - they're my issues, not her's - I should have known better than to get into a relationship. By the start of college, I had already resolved myself to the fact that I'd never meet someone: then I did - and she actually liked me. Bad mistake on her part. Transpeople should come with warning lables: "Volatile contents inside - subject to change without notice."

She told me that what she does is tolerate all of this - that she copes with it and hopes it doesn't get worst - that it is what is and that she really has no other choice. We touched upon a few other points - with nothing new discussed (same talk we've had in the past) and then went upstairs for the evening.

This morning (Sunday), we wound up continuing our discussion - and I spend most of it crying (I can be such a pussy at times.)

I took from her something she can not get back - the joy of giving birth to our second daughter. When I should have been 'a husband' for her, I wasn't. I have no excuse - mitigating circumstances maybe - but an excuse... I f*cked up big time and cannot undo it. She told me that if I wasn't there in the past, is all likelihood it will happen again. She's hurt - she has a right to be hurt. She feels she deserves better - and I agree. As I have said, she didn't bargin for this and I've not made it easy.

When I asked her if realized that the comments - no matter how seemingly inconsequential - really hurt me, she acknowledge that and apologised. I don't think she tries to be hurtful, but that's how it comes out sometimes.

We discussed a bunch of stuff - some releated, some not. We ended the way we always do, with her telling me she loves me. I ask her, "Why?" - I thought that given the conversation it was a valid question.

She told me, "Because you're my sweetie - and I just do."

And so, we are where we have been and most likely always will be. I don't know how healthy this is for either of us, but for the most part, we're happy - and neither of us is willing to let go of the other.

In the end, that has to be worth something.

Love & stuff,
Donna

[Joy Carter]

Donna thanks for the update I can relate to your problem but in my case she can't even speak of it with out going into a big cry. She is obviously hitting you with the big stick when she comes out with the comments, typical of the species. Women always have to be reminded that your there for them and if your not just once then there is always hell to pay. They are selfish in that they want it their way and if you fit into the mold that's fine but if you don't well I don't need to go into it. Can't say it enough but than to talk and talk some more. I have one at home still and if and when he leaves I hope I can find some freedom, I have waited for so long I need to be myself and finances what they are they will not allow me to go off privately to be me. So maybe she is scared about the children, this should be for most in your mind because they will always be there till the end of your days weather they love you or hate you. So now is the time to be there for them they will some day leave and hopefully you two can reach some common ground.

Much Love and Respect Joy Carter

[Kate Simmons]

Hi Donna, All things considered, I think she looks at your femme self as competition for your attention, time and investment. The same as my wife looks at Ericka. Richard

[Momarie]

Donna thanks for the update I can relate to your problem but in my case she can't even speak of it with out going into a big cry. She is obviously hitting you with the big stick when she comes out with the comments, typical of the species. Women always have to be reminded that your there for them and if your not just once then there is always hell to pay. They are selfish in that they want it their way and if you fit into the mold that's fine but if you don't well I don't need to go into it. Can't say it enough but than to talk and talk some more. I have one at home still and if and when he leaves I hope I can find some freedom, I have waited for so long I need to be myself and finances what they are they will not allow me to go off privately to be me. So maybe she is scared about the children, this should be for most in your mind because they will always be there till the end of your days weather they love you or hate you. So now is the time to be there for them they will some day leave and hopefully you two can reach some common ground.

Much Love and Respect Joy Carter
"Typical of the species"
Just EXACTLY what kind of species are you referring to?

[Ms. Donna]

More talking and more crying on my part - I haven't gone through this in years: it sucked then and it sucks now. :(

We both cleared the air a bit on some relatively unspoken topics: e.g. her comments and how they effect me. She has also explained her motivation behind them. Yes, sometimes they are said to be hurtful, but what drives it is her frustration at having to be subjected to this. It's more the situation than it is me - even though I am the cause of the sutuation. The other motivating force is a genuine desire for me to be happy. She is not completely off base with the idea that being with an other trans person - someone with whom I could relate and who would understand at an innate level what it is I feel - what it means to be as I am. Her question was more along the line of thinking out loud than a poisoned barb.


She is obviously hitting you with the big stick when she comes out with the comments, typical of the species. Women always have to be reminded that your there for them and if your not just once then there is always hell to pay. They are selfish in that they want it their way and if you fit into the mold that's fine but if you don't well I don't need to go into it.

While I can see how you might cultivate that point of view, I have to stick up for my wife here. I did let her down - at a time when she needed me to be, above all else, a husband to her. She's hurt and has a right to be. Like I said, I took from her something she can not get back - the joy of giving birth to our second daughter.

We all have expectation of our spouses. Why is it right to expect them to change for us, but not for them to expect us to change for them? Talk about selfishness on our part! They're expectations are no less valid than our own.

We all need to read Kathy's reply to Why don't most GG's accept us ? (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=448962) Her's is the most spot on answer to this. We all should print this out, post it in plain sight and read it daily - especially before dumping on our wives / girlfriends / whatever.

We do this to them. We bring the baggage. We dump it on them. And then somehow it's their fault? Seems we've lost the plot along the way.

I truly feel as transpeople (and this may or may not exclude the self-defined 'regular' crossdresser) that we have no business marrying straight, heterosexual women. Even if we're up front with them. I found out today that even though I told her about wearing women's underware before we were married - even though she came to know I would 'dress up' and go out - even though I had managed to integrate many items of women's clothing into my wardrobe: until I told her about being transgender, she had no idea. It really was a shock to her. It's not fair to them - and it's not fair to us. We set both sides up for disappointment.

I don't blame my wife - I never have and never will. Nor an I mad at her - I never have been and never will. I made a choice - against my instincts - to allow my self to be loved by someone with whom I had no business getting involved. Now, we are both in this situation. She allows - and quite rightly - that it is usually good: and it is. But when it's bad... Well, thankfully those times are relatively few and far between: unfortunately, this is one of the few.

She says she wants me to be happy and I believe her. In fact, she's never said otherwise - even when it really bad. Now is not a really, or even marginally, bad time.

I'm in a funk and I need to pull my ass out of it because right now, the only one feeling bad is me.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[CaptLex]

Donna,

Lord knows I'm no expert in relationships so please take my advice with a grain of salt, but I feel the need to comment on some of the things you have said and I hope some of my words will at least bring some comfort (if not actual help).

First of all, I understand when you say that you don't blame her, but I really, really wish you would also stop blaming yourself. In my experience, blame and guilt tend to distort things, sometimes to the point that we can't find a way to fix things because we can't get past the guilt.

Yes, I know you screwed up with her (with the birth of your second daughter) but, as you pointed out, you can't change the past, so all you (and she) can do is move on from it and make an effort not to repeat past mistakes. Please, please, please, forgive yourself already and move on. Guilt is useless. Blame is useless. It changes nothing. It fixes nothing.

Secondly, I could be completely off-base here, but maybe when she makes comments like "your people" she's feeling a bit left out because perhaps she wants to understand it and have it be something you two can share, but she doesn't see how. It also sounds to me like when she made the comment about what "you need" she was asking for reassurance from you.

As you should know from hanging out with females most of your life, women have a different language and it's rarely direct. It's like a coded message that you have to decipher sometimes. She may have been looking for you to reassure her that you don't want someone like you, and that she is all you want and need to be with (even if it sounded like something else to you).

Lastly, as others have said, it sounds to me like you two could benefit from counseling. I think it's great that you guys are able to talk and get things out in the open, but it also sounds like you've reached an impasse and need someone who can see things more objectively. It seems like there is a lot of hurt between you both, but it also seems like there is still much love there, so wouldn't it be worth it to try and resolve things and end the hurting?

Just my 0.02 I really hope things work out for you.

[sokimberly]

Please forgive me for butting in.

First, you did something a long time ago. It has been acknowledged. She needs to forgive you. You need to forgive yourself.

Second, when she married you she knew as much about you as you knew about yourself. She still married you. After nineteen years she knows as much about you as you know about yourself. She is still there, therefore she needs to accept you (a true caring loving acceptance is the beginning of "negotiation" where mature adults can have different needs and still find a happy middle). You need to accept yourself. There should be no shame in you. There is NOTHING wrong with you. She should not be shamming you. She needs to take responsibility for her decisions.

Even if it takes time, these things need to be non-negotiable.

P.S. Please believe me, I know real life is not this black and white (or is it?)

Wishing peace in your anxious heart,

Kimberly

[kittypw GG]

Hi Donna, All things considered, I think she looks at your femme self as competition for your attention, time and investment. The same as my wife looks at Ericka. Richard

Sorry Ericka I don't want to be a bitch but it is sooooo much more than competition for attention. :eek: Just like it is soooo much more than just the clothes. If it is easier for you to think that superficially then I guess you must. This is about love, hate, anguish, distrust, hope, dispair, longing, respect/disrespect, deep sorrow......................wounds, healing, soul searching, changing thought processes, acceptance, fitting into the world, struggles most people don't have, feelings that you don't know what to do with, self hatred (most of us gg's struggeling have felt this, we want to love but what is our barrier?) I could go on but my eyes are blurry from tears.
Kitty

[Ms. Donna]

First of all, I understand when you say that you don't blame her, but I really, really wish you would also stop blaming yourself. In my experience, blame and guilt tend to distort things, sometimes to the point that we can't find a way to fix things because we can't get past the guilt.
It's not so much blaming myself as it is accepting responsibility. I am who I am - she had no part in making me this way. She is also entitled to want what she wants - that need not be that same thing I want.

For me, it's acceptance of the reality of the situation.


Please, please, please, forgive yourself already and move on. Guilt is useless. Blame is useless. It changes nothing. It fixes nothing.
Noted. If you knew me long enough, you'd find out that I'm good at emotionally kicking the sh*t out of myself - something I've not yet learned to stop when I get to feeling this way. I can dig up posts from eight years ago than sound much like this thread. Old habits die hard.


Secondly, I could be completely off-base here, but maybe when she makes comments like "your people" she's feeling a bit left out because perhaps she wants to understand it and have it be something you two can share, but she doesn't see how. It also sounds to me like when she made the comment about what "you need" she was asking for reassurance from you.
Her feeling 'left out' is more about my spending time here - on line with cyber-people as opposed to with her and the family. She has a point as I do tend to withdraw: I've never been a social person. As for needing reassurance, it's actions - not words - which which will make the difference.


As you should know from hanging out with females most of your life, women have a different language and it's rarely direct. It's like a coded message that you have to decipher sometimes. She may have been looking for you to reassure her that you don't want someone like you, and that she is all you want and need to be with (even if it sounded like something else to you).
While it's true that women do have a language unto themselves at times, my wife is not one to be obtuse. I've reassured her that I don't want 'someone else' - her comment, as I said, was one more of observation and has some validity to it.


Lastly, as others have said, it sounds to me like you two could benefit from counseling. I think it's great that you guys are able to talk and get things out in the open, but it also sounds like you've reached an impasse and need someone who can see things more objectively. It seems like there is a lot of hurt between you both, but it also seems like there is still much love there, so wouldn't it be worth it to try and resolve things and end the hurting?
Agreed. She mantioned about me going back to see my therapist (which I am considering) and I mentioned that perhaps we shoud see someone as well. She's not too keen on the idea at the moment but we'll see what happens.


First, you did something a long time ago. It has been acknowledged. She needs to forgive you. You need to forgive yourself.
It's more than just the one incident. There have been other things - not many - but others. Truth is that as a rule, none of this is held over me. But push the right buttons, and they wiggle their way back to the surface. And the thing is, there isn't anything she has done on par. In the game of tit-for-tat, I lose from the start.


Second, when she married you she knew as much about you as you knew about yourself. She still married you. After nineteen years she knows as much about you as you know about yourself.
There's knowing and there's knowing. What she knew in the beginning was that I was a little bit different - nothing awful - just different. I knew there was more, but thought it was 'going away'. Later on, when things kicked up a bit, she was still like "ok, this isn't so bad." However, as time went on, and more and more 'stuff' made its way into my day to day life, we started to have fihts now and then where she would ask me - point blank - "Do you want to be a woman?"

How does a married 'man' answer that question to his wife? Does he say "As a matter of fact, yes I do want to be a woman." ... No, he lies - to her and to himself. To answer truthfully would be to lose the one thing - the one person - in his life he never expected to have. He lies until even he himself believes the lie - despite feelings to the contrary. He lies to hold on to the only thing in his life which makes him feel normal.

The answer to the question as to whether we are selfish. Q.E.D.


She is still there, therefore she needs to accept you (a true caring loving acceptance is the beginning of "negotiation" where mature adults can have different needs and still find a happy middle).
She doesn't need to do anything. She has the same right to want what she wants as I do. I would like her to be unconditionally accepting, but I cannot compel her to do so.


You need to accept yourself. There should be no shame in you. There is NOTHING wrong with you.
That part I have covered: I spent two years getting there. I accept myself and have no shame regarding who I am and what I am.


She should not be shamming you. She needs to take responsibility for her decisions.
She knows this and does take responsibility for her actions. She knows (we both do) that ours is far from an 'ideal' situation - but how many of us here (or people anywhere) have an ideal situation? We do our best until our best isn't good enough anymore. Then it's time to fish or cut bait.

By and large, this is a cyclical thing with us - we have had this discussion before and probably will again. While it's not what she would have wanted, she is willing to tolerate/accept the majority of this because she loves me. I'm willing to work with her as best as I can because I love her. It's a bit on the disfunctional side, but no moreso than most other CD/TG relationships.

We're in a low part of the cycle - and this just needs to run it's course which it seems to have done more or less.

Love & Stuff,
Donna