My first sexual harassment

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I was at a department store yesterday en femme looking at purses and behind me and I hear: "<mumble> <mumble> baby..." and then in my peripheral vision I see Creepy Guy walk past. I didn't really catch what he said, but the intent was clear.

OK, what an ***hole.... but he keeps moving to the edge of the purse department. Only then, a minute later he circles back and walks up next to me. "This is nice," he says, gesturing toward a purse. "Yes, it is," says in my best I'm-not-really-interested-in-talking-to-you tones. Family shopping nearby looks up. Creepy Guy walks off. But a minute or two later he comes up again behind me and mumbles something that I assume he thinks is going to make me hot and wet. This time I just ignore him.

I go look at a display in the aisle just outside the purse section and I find something that I like. Creepy Guy walks up and mumbles something again. "Go away," I tell him bluntly. "Are you a man?" he demands. "More than you'll ever be," I think, but I figure now is not the time for a snappy comeback. Instead I give him my best I'm-gonna-****-you-up stare and say: "Go. Away. Now." Creepy Guy finally gets the message and scurries off before I tell him that I'm sure his friends would be amused if he got his *** kicked by a guy in dress.

Fortunately, the check-out counter was 10 feet away, so if things had really escalated I could've yelled for store security. As it was, I just went over there bought the purse (in part figuring Creepy Guy wasn't about to confront me while I was in line) and did make sure on the way out to check that he wasn't waiting for me.

All-in-all, definitely an eye-opening experience. I was about the same size as Creepy Guy if it ended up getting physical, but I can only imagine what it's like if you know the guy harassing you is bigger and stronger.

[livy_m_b]

You handled it very well, Marlena! And the fact that he had to ask says he couldn't be sure and that staying in role was exactly the right response. He'll never know for sure!

[BlueKat]

Interesting, but I'm not sure this could be defined as sexual harassment.

[Kate Simmons]

Wow, this guy had no style at all. Now if he said , can I buy you lunch or something, that may have worked better. I'd probably have said: "May I help you?" or "Excuse me?" or something like that. I would want to see what the guy wanted. Some of these guys are about as suave as a cue ball. Anyway, I think you handled it pretty well. Myself, I always have a good left hook waiting for the occassional smartass but I won't belabor this as I don't want to be accused of being aggressive again. Once again, I think you handled it well. Ericka

[RikkiOfLA]

Interesting, but I'm not sure this could be defined as sexual harassment.

Depends who you ask. In California, legally it's not. Legally, sexual harrassment has to be more than just speech--job discrimination, violence, touching, etc. But when I trained on the crisis hotline, we were taught a very simple definition of an obscene phone call: if the call makes you feel uncomfortable, i.e. cheap and dirty inside, it's sexual harrassment. We all know words can be powerful. So, IMHO, by that broader than legal definition, that was sexual harrassment.

Marlena, welcome to the world of women. :mad:

[Zelda Noe]

Hi Marlena :wave2:

How awful...I would have blown my cover...for sure. You seemed to handle the pressure well concerning the circumstances. I would have been a nervous wreck and ended up leaving the store. My heart rpm level would have probably been over 10,000 (a little race speak).

I'm soooooooooo glad you are safe.

Thanks for sharing this with us here on the Forum..we all have so much to learn about being in public.

Maybe you should consider going out in pairs...not that you couldn't handle yourself physically if you needed. Just seems safer.

With much concern, Dandy :happy: :thumbsup:

[kathy gg]

First off...Marlena, I am really bummed to hear that happened....but as you go out more en femme and enjoy doing regular stuff you will see that sadly these things do happen. It is just one of the more unpleasant things women deal with. I usually am most shocked when I have had inappropriate comments made towards me, I have found it does not matter if you are leaving the gym wearing your yoga pants and hair in a ponytail, if a guy is going to be gross he will. Wedding band or not...it happens. And apart from hiding out at home...it is just one of the more unpleasant parts of being a woman.

Now BlueKat...........................

Umm, would it have been "sexual harrassment" if he grabbed Marlena or attacked her by her vehicle?

I am sorry Blue Kat, but to me and most women sexual harrassment is a sexual overtone/gesture/remark/touching that is not welcomed or wanted.

Marlena was shopping at a store, not at a bar, not on a streetcorner and not 'wanting' or asking for this attention.

Sorry to sound so huffy, but do women have to be physically grabbed or assaulted before guys classify it as "sexual harrassment"? By your statement I wonder?

And I think the same goes for females, if you think I am about to go on a rant about female harrassment only, I'm not. Trust me I 'had' {emphasis on past tense} a female friend who used to completely come on to men at the most inappropriate times and make the most sexual comments and stares and try to do what ever she could to get a reaction or comment from men. It was downright gross some of the things and gestures she would make.

So trust me, i don't think sexual harrassment is something 'male' exclusive. But there are times and places where mild and friendly flirting can happen....but to me a department store shopping for a handbag is not one of those.

THis behavior is not welcome by most gg's I know and as we can see not welcome to Marlena either.

Sincerely'



Interesting, but I'm not sure this could be defined as sexual harassment.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Yeah, it's one of those -- I don't claim to know what "being a woman" is like but I now better understand some of the experiences women have -- experiences. It's one thing to know about it intellectually and another to experience it. And yeah, it sucks. And the next guy I see harassing a woman better watch out...

Dandy, I'm not gonna let one jerk keep me from living my life (if I did, he's won), but I will be more aware of the other steps I could've also taken. I got a bit of good advice elsewhere:


never hesitate to let someone know what's going on - esp if you think there's some risk of someone following you out of the store/bar/wherever, because then at the very least, you can say, "look, i already told the clerk some jerk was following me, & she's getting security."

you can say that even if she isn't, too - but he might call your bluff, too. better you make a nuisance of yourself for safety's sake.

Going out en femme just means being a bit more security conscious -- something you may not ever had to think about en homme (that's the sort of thing feminists mean when they talk about "male privilege.")

[BlueKat]

Umm, would it have been "sexual harrassment" if he grabbed Marlena or attacked her by her vehicle?
I am sorry Blue Kat, but to me and most women sexual harrassment is a sexual overtone/gesture/remark/touching that is not welcomed or wanted.
Was a direct sexual remark or threat made? If it was, I missed that part.
I would say this is more along the lines of some rude smartmouth jackass spouting off. But, hey, maybe there was more to it.

[~Kitty GG~]

Was a direct sexual remark or threat made? If it was, I missed that part.
I would say this is more along the lines of some rude smartmouth jackass spouting off. But, hey, maybe there was more to it.

I think you missed a bit:


Creepy Guy walks off. But a minute or two later he comes up again behind me and mumbles something that I assume he thinks is going to make me hot and wet. This time I just ignore him.


I say sexual harrassment.

Sorry you had to experience it, Marlena. And sorry that its so common.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[kathy gg]

Hi BlueKat,

I think Kitty posted a direct quote...but I think the point of Marlena's post, {although not a word for word account of the incident} was she felt uncomfortable and felt 'harrassed in a sexual way". Was it equalivalent to the kidn of sexual harrassment which one would press charges on..I doubt it. But bottom line she felt targeted and uncomfortable and had sexual remarkds pointed at her.

I won't disagree with the creepy guy also being a smartmouth jackass though.

All I know is if I had a dollar for everytime I felt "sexually harrassed" I would have over a $1000 easily. No, not harrassed enough to "press charges", but enough to make me worried, feel uncomfortable or to feel violated.

I don't think most men or tg's have to give much thought to feeing harrassed sexually until it happens. I am sure some crossdressers might feel "flattered" but I can tell you all I have ever felt was creeped out and or scared for my safety. And as you can see by my picture, I am just an average female. I am not model beautiful and I have found most times where I have felt harrassed or worried were times when I was very modestly dressed and not in situations which warrant a sexually charged "pick-up" line. I won't bore you with particular incidents, but knowing it can happen is something most of us realize is part of the world being a female. In most cases the men are larger than us and in most cases if someone wanted to "have their way" chances of me actually fighting the person off are not huge. It is a fear which I think most aware females are smart to realize is a reality. And I think a post like hers shoudl be a wake up call to any who go out. Be careful use caution and get some help if need be.




Was a direct sexual remark or threat made? If it was, I missed that part.
I would say this is more along the lines of some rude smartmouth jackass spouting off. But, hey, maybe there was more to it.

[BlueKat]

I am sure some crossdressers might feel "flattered" but I can tell you all I have ever felt was creeped out and or scared for my safety.
Kathy:
This is an interesting observation of yours, and I believe that you're right on the money. I believe some CD's (certainly a small percentage) even crave or would seek out this kind of attention. I guess this is a good example of how much we all vary, even within our own community. That puzzles me, but I don't want to get too off topic here.
I think some guys (such as this a$$clown) when they think they "read" a CD in public, assume that all CD's out in public are seeking male attention.
I think it's also interesting to note that Marlena lives in the SF Bay area, which one would think would be safer than other areas. I guess you never know.

[Jillian310]

Hoping not to put too fine a point on it, but harassement of any type, including sexual, has a legal definition that is more stringent than what one may feels is 'harassement'. Ergo, behavior that one feels may be harassement may not rise to the legal definition. In this case, a rose by any other name is not necessarily a rose.

[Kerry Owens]

Pure and simple...harassment if not more threatening, and when you are a woman that can be deeply frightening, most men are stronger than we are, and we are vulnerable like it or not.

[Zelda Noe]

Hi Again Marlena :wave2:

Sorry for any misunderstanding concerning my statement...

My femme side mentioned you going out with another person to feel safe as a lady...

My male side says to beat the c--p out of this guy if he touches you...even so I don't blame you for staring him down and saying to get out of your face.

Now I think I understand that old saying, "male chauvinist pig"...not that I don't like masculinity, just this guys attitude.

Just wanted to make that distinction...it's obvious you CAN take good care of yourself...

You go girl!!!

Hugs, Dandy :thumbsup:

[trannie T]

This is why I carry pepper spray in my purse. It's cheap, legal and effective. Although this case would not have warranted its use having it handy gives one a good feeling of security.

[Butterfly Bill]

Welcome out! You look like you'll be able to handle anything else that comes in the future. Cool head gets you thru.

[paula]

most man still living in the stoneage :mad: :rolleyes:

[bredalee25]

Well I think you did the right thing in letting him know you'd kick his *** if he didn't move on. If more women gg's that is would stick up for themselves there would be less harassment and rape in this country. Yes I know there are some cases where you are taken by surprise and can't defend yourself against an attacker. I just wish creeps like that guy didn't exsist at all but they do. If I were out enfemme and encountered a creep like that i'd probabally break caracter and drag his butt outside and open a big can of whoop*** on him thats just my0.02

ttfn

[azure]

Excellently handled! Keeping yourself grounded, keeping calm and not saying the first thing that comes into your head, even if it does sound cool, is really important. The key is to behave like your meant to be there. Im glad you left with your confindence and focus intact, well done!

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

One other lesson to keep in mind is don't be afraid to make a scene -- which in fact was the next step I had in mind. I'm sure he probably assumed I didn't want to call attention to myself. But if I'd said loudly "Quit bothering me" -- or better yet, "No I don't want to sleep with you, you creep!" (particularly dropping my voice into its deep resonate mode) --I'm sure that would've have sent him running.

Alternatively, if I'd have a camera in my pursue, I might've gotten it out and taken a picture of him -- which I could him told him I was going to take to security. (Obviously, this only would've worked because I was in the middle of a department store.)

The main thing is to refuse to act like a victim and do unexpected things that will throw them off their stride. For example, I realized that one other thing I did unconsciously was to step toward him, which is asserting dominance through body language (just like you'd do with a dog).

BTW for you GWs, that's one example of a whole "language of aggression" that men use among themselves. Kind of hard to describe because its something we usually do at a subconscious level (sort of like "the nod" (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29742) men give each other) but it's something we're well aware of. (Along those lines, if I'd wanted to escalate to getting physical, I knew which buttons to push to get him to take a swing at me.) I'm sure you're attuned to the "language of aggression" men use toward women, but knowing "man-to-man language" could be useful in responding to a threat (part of that responding in an unexpected way). But that's probably another discussion....

[kittypw GG]

Congradulations Marlena, Welcome to the intimate world of women. It is not fun being the object of someone's sexual fantasy. It is so nice to talk to men only to have them stare at your breasts while they are talking to you. It is obvious that they have not clue what you are saying. They think that you are under such a privilage to have such attention. And what a bitch you are for being so ungrateful: ( He is a man and he is interested in you. You should be in awe of his masculinity). Did he call you a dike since you did not find his attention attractive? That is the usual response from these types. I think that you have graduated to the level of women, how does it feel? Nice huh?:thumbsdn: :thumbsdn: Kitty


I was at a department store yesterday en femme looking at purses and behind me and I hear: "<mumble> <mumble> baby..." and then in my peripheral vision I see Creepy Guy walk past. I didn't really catch what he said, but the intent was clear.

OK, what an ***hole.... but he keeps moving to the edge of the purse department. Only then, a minute later he circles back and walks up next to me. "This is nice," he says, gesturing toward a purse. "Yes, it is," says in my best I'm-not-really-interested-in-talking-to-you tones. Family shopping nearby looks up. Creepy Guy walks off. But a minute or two later he comes up again behind me and mumbles something that I assume he thinks is going to make me hot and wet. This time I just ignore him.

I go look at a display in the aisle just outside the purse section and I find something that I like. Creepy Guy walks up and mumbles something again. "Go away," I tell him bluntly. "Are you a man?" he demands. "More than you'll ever be," I think, but I figure now is not the time for a snappy comeback. Instead I give him my best I'm-gonna-****-you-up stare and say: "Go. Away. Now." Creepy Guy finally gets the message and scurries off before I tell him that I'm sure his friends would be amused if he got his *** kicked by a guy in dress.

Fortunately, the check-out counter was 10 feet away, so if things had really escalated I could've yelled for store security. As it was, I just went over there bought the purse (in part figuring Creepy Guy wasn't about to confront me while I was in line) and did make sure on the way out to check that he wasn't waiting for me.

All-in-all, definitely an eye-opening experience. I was about the same size as Creepy Guy if it ended up getting physical, but I can only imagine what it's like if you know the guy harassing you is bigger and stronger.

[CharlaineCadence]

First off...Marlena, I am really bummed to hear that happened....but as you go out more en femme and enjoy doing regular stuff you will see that sadly these things do happen. It is just one of the more unpleasant things women deal with. I usually am most shocked when I have had inappropriate comments made towards me, I have found it does not matter if you are leaving the gym wearing your yoga pants and hair in a ponytail, if a guy is going to be gross he will. Wedding band or not...it happens. And apart from hiding out at home...it is just one of the more unpleasant parts of being a woman.

Now BlueKat...........................

Umm, would it have been "sexual harrassment" if he grabbed Marlena or attacked her by her vehicle?

I am sorry Blue Kat, but to me and most women sexual harrassment is a sexual overtone/gesture/remark/touching that is not welcomed or wanted.

Marlena was shopping at a store, not at a bar, not on a streetcorner and not 'wanting' or asking for this attention.

Sorry to sound so huffy, but do women have to be physically grabbed or assaulted before guys classify it as "sexual harrassment"? By your statement I wonder?

And I think the same goes for females, if you think I am about to go on a rant about female harrassment only, I'm not. Trust me I 'had' {emphasis on past tense} a female friend who used to completely come on to men at the most inappropriate times and make the most sexual comments and stares and try to do what ever she could to get a reaction or comment from men. It was downright gross some of the things and gestures she would make.

So trust me, i don't think sexual harrassment is something 'male' exclusive. But there are times and places where mild and friendly flirting can happen....but to me a department store shopping for a handbag is not one of those.

THis behavior is not welcome by most gg's I know and as we can see not welcome to Marlena either.

Sincerely'


As a former law enforcement officer both civializn and military I have to so much agree with Kathy on this. It is sexual harrasment. weather if it was from a man or a woman.

[Joy Carter]

Sexual harassment involves someone who is one an employee or some one who under the supervision of another or a fellow employee. So making unwanted comments of a sexual nature, threats, cartoons of a sexual nature. Or coercing a subordinate to do something of a sexual nature under threat of loosing their job. Or even repeatedly asking one for a date when they said no would be S H, not some perv unknown to the victim such as happened here. If a stranger touched her in a sexual way it would be sexual imposition if he grabbed/touched her in a private area it would be gross sexual imposition. If he just grabbed her by the arm it would be assault, so state law says in Ohio. I was a government employee and we had training on this subject for four hours every year. And no this is not all that the law says it's rather long and involved. Me I would have said "What Are You Going To Say When You Tell Your Friends A CD Beat You Up ?" Oh you can use my line any time! :Punch:

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Did he call you a dike since you did not find his attention attractive?

I suspect he had another epiphet in mind...


I think that you have graduated to the level of women, how does it feel? Nice huh?:thumbsdn: :thumbsdn: Kitty

It sucked. It's one thing to be aware of it intellectually and another to experience it first-hand. Oh BTW, while I didn't mention it in my original posts, Creepy Guy's comment were to the effect of how much he'd like to do me (he was mumbling, so I didn't catch every word). I'd say that counts as sexual....

BTW GWs, since you're probably facing a size and strength disadvantage, the thing to remember if things get physical is to fight dirty and respond disproportionately (i.e. don't be afraid to go for the eyes, put a fist/elbow in his throat, a knee in his crotch or break some fingers). It's all about ending the attack ASAP.

[kittypw GG]

Oh Marlena,
I can't tell you how many times I have had my boobs fondeled in a crowd. Men think that they are just intitled to take whatever they think that they want and you better like it or you are some friged bitch or obviously gay since you don't adore this kind of attention. Thank God these types are not the majority. That stupid jerk would be lucky if someone like you would ever in a million years pay him some attention. You go girl! You took one for the team. Too bad you had too. kitty


I suspect he had another epiphet in mind...



It sucked. It's one thing to be aware of it intellectually and another to experience it first-hand. Oh BTW, while I didn't mention it in my original posts, Creepy Guy's comment were to the effect of how much he'd like to do me (he was mumbling, so I didn't catch every word). I'd say that counts as sexual....

BTW GWs, since you're probably facing a size and strength disadvantage, the thing to remember if things get physical is to fight dirty and respond disproportionately (i.e. don't be afraid to go for the eyes, put a fist/elbow in his throat, a knee in his crotch or break some fingers). It's all about ending the attack ASAP.

[Khriss]

... vulgar behavior with sexual overtones sounds like harassment to me..
endured likely by GG's the most but happens to every gender. In drab... I have experienced being "hit on" by rather creepy gay guys a couple of times..the fact that they made me feel very uncomfortable,even frightened by their forwardness did'nt seem to bother them at all... go figure...
...that type of behavior qualifies the term "perv" to me....like a physical crime , just waiting to happen...

[Toni]

You did very well Marlena and of course it was harrasement, I was harrassed by a gang of middle aged women shouting, screaming and banging on the roof of my car a few weeks back so I know just how frightening these things can be, especially if you're only small and really not that way enclined to defend yourself. I wonder if this A***hole would have approached a manly looking woman (And there are a lot of them) with the same questions and remarks? Just because you might be a man wearing ladies clothes is no reason whatsoever to ask that lady for confirmation. You reacted with tact and dignity so don't let these b******s grind you down and certainly don't let them put you off dressing and going where you want to.

[Alison Michelle]

BTW GWs, since you're probably facing a size and strength disadvantage, the thing to remember if things get physical is to fight dirty and respond disproportionately (i.e. don't be afraid to go for the eyes, put a fist/elbow in his throat, a knee in his crotch or break some fingers). It's all about ending the attack ASAP.

Well said Marlena, even if you never take a defensive course, think about how you would defend your self. Going over a maneuver in hour head is about as effective as doing it in a class you just need to do it repetitively. A jerk like this won't have his "boys" tucked away so a quick pop with your knee will distract him. :Punch: Hope I am not to far off topic.

[Shelly Preston]

Hi Marlena

Sorry you had to go through this experience.
It's one thing to strike up a conversation in a store but quite another to make inappropriate comments.

This is harassment and is totally unacceptable.

It sounds as though you handled the situation extremely well.

I hope you never have to go through this again. :hugs:

[ronda]

in most states or courts if you stand or sit to close to any person if you speak to that person and they respond telling you they are offend and you continue it is then sexual harrastment and you are creating a hostile enviroment. 0.02
sorry that you had to put up with such an ***hole in a store but you handleed it very well and by the way you good in your avtar

[~Kitty GG~]

Well I think you did the right thing in letting him know you'd kick his *** if he didn't move on. If more women gg's that is would stick up for themselves there would be less harassment and rape in this country. Yes I know there are some cases where you are taken by surprise and can't defend yourself against an attacker. I just wish creeps like that guy didn't exsist at all but they do. If I were out enfemme and encountered a creep like that i'd probabally break caracter and drag his butt outside and open a big can of whoop*** on him thats just my0.02

ttfn

I found your comments extremely offensive.

Thank you very much for blaming the victims of sexual harassment and rape and probably every other form of harassment and abuse, for the crimes.

You might want to consider that we can not "break character" and suddenly become men in skirts. We are women. Its not always an option to fight back. Its not always prudent to fight back. We often have children to consider and protect. Even when we fight back we still run a higher chance of being the ones hurt in the end.

Plus then we have to face those who place the blame on us.

disgusted
~Kitty~

[kittypw GG]

I found your comments extremely offensive.

Thank you very much for blaming the victims of sexual harassment and rape and probably every other form of harassment and abuse, for the crimes.

You might want to consider that we can not "break character" and suddenly become men in skirts. We are women. Its not always an option to fight back. Its not always prudent to fight back. We often have children to consider and protect. Even when we fight back we still run a higher chance of being the ones hurt in the end.

Plus then we have to face those who place the blame on us.

disgusted
~Kitty~

:yrtw: Thanks Kitty, very well said indeed!!!

[Paula Rae]

Hey Marlena,
You handled that well, you are quite a lady.
Great looking avatar too. :thumbsup:

Ricki B

[Kerry Owens]

Thank you, Kitty, that said just what I was thinking.