Why the assumption

[Emma England]

Why do many people assume that cd's are gay?

If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones.

I am straight myself. Yes I admit, I do look at gg's in both a sexual and beauty way.

[Amelie]

Why do many people assume that cd's are gay?


I am the one that causes this. Whenever I go out to clubs and bars, I tell everyone that CDs are gay. And throughout the years I have told this to many people, so I guess I am to blame for this horrific tale that has destroyed so many straight CDs lives.



If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones

Well, first off, you can't go into every gays mans head and see why he likes the things he does, just like there are many diferent kinds of CDs, there are different kinds of gay men, some might actually be into guys who wear women's clothes, I have met quite a few of these guys. Anyway there are Bi guys who like t-girls. How does one know if a gay guy is totally gay, maybe he is bi.

[EricaCD]

I think this has to do with a broad (misinformed) social stereotypes: Many people still equate male homosexuality with effeminacy. So when they see a man expressing a feminine image, the (false) syllogism is gay=effeminate, CD=effeminate, thus CD=gay.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I am the one that causes this. Whenever I go out to clubs and bars, I tell everyone that CDs are gay. And throughout the years I have told this to many people, so I guess I am to blame for this horrific tale that has destroyed so many straight CDs lives.

We knew it was all your fault... :D

Seriously, it's part of society equating "unmanly = feminine = gay." Remember as boys we'd tease the weaker boy about being gay long before we had any idea of what homosexuality was. Likewise, we'd also tease them about being "girls." (For what it's worth, a number of folks in the gay community also have "sissyphobia" from what I've been told and don't react well to fellow gays who are more effeminate.)

Also, the only cross-dressed men that public usually sees are drag queens, who are usually gay (although some are TG or TS, and a few are even straight), so that becomes their point of reference.

And, for some women, the reason they get glammed up is to attract a man, so they just assume we must be doing it for the same reason (that question has been posed several new GWs here) -- despite the rather obvious point that Amelie made about how wearing a dress usually isn't the best way to turn on a gay man.

[Sally24]

I'd have to say the obvious reason is they look at crossdressing as a sexual thing, not a gender thing.

If you look at it from a sexual perspective, why does an apparent female dress well or provocatively in public?.....To attract men.....if you are attracting men, then they assume you want a romantic/sexual relationship with a man.....if you want a sexual relationship with a man (and you are a male) you must be.....gay. From that perspective it makes some sense. Unfortunetly, they are making many assumptions in that line of thought.

[kathy gg]

Emma, um, some cd's are gay. Some cd's a bi-sexual. Some cd's are bi-curious. Some cd's are into other cd's. And then some cd's are straight {but obviously not narrow}.

I remember ages ago Triess used to have a stastistic that something like 80% of cd's were straight. But my personal feelings... I think that the margin between 100% straight {only into women regardless ofthe clothing you have on} vs all the other stuff is probably 20% are 100% straight. And every body else falls something in that 80% catagory.

I think the crossdressers who are only into women have become the minority. Hence the ones who are this way feel obligated to constantly point out how 'straight' they are. I think one's actions and such say more than protesting how "straight" one is.

And I think Amalie explained it best, what do you call a man who only likes tg's but won't date other men? Is he gay too? According to many who post on here their gender has nothing to do with what is between their legs, so if that is the case then those cd's are het too. hmmm?

And what about a gg who is into cd's too? ALot of cd's like to assume we are "lesbians".

Honesty, I really don't care if Joe Nobody on the street thinks "cd's" are gay. The only cd I have to worry about is the one I am married to and I know what he likes. People will ultimatly assume things based on nothing but thin air. Why let the opinons of strangers even matter. Most people on this board usually know enough not to make those assumptions, so why let what others think {outside of the community} bother you?






Why do many people assume that cd's are gay?

If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones.

I am straight myself. Yes I admit, I do look at gg's in both a sexual and beauty way.

[~Kitty GG~]

Because its so foreign to them.

A non-CDing man doesn't understand why you'd want to be a girly.. so you must be gay.

A GG doesn't understand why you want to be girly unless it was to get a man.

The world is uninformed.

We very seldom hear Gender & Sex differentiated.

Add in the gay drag queens, the effeminate gay stereotype, and the fact that there are gays and bis in EVERY group of people.. and I would not wonder why they assume gay.. But expect them to make that assumption.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[Sky]

If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones.

Well, I guess I should be glad I'm not passable, that must be why some guys -guys, not gays- are still interested in me... :tongueout

Emma, the only sure thing about using the word "surely" is that you are sure to find lots of exceptions to the rule. If there is any rule at all.

And by the way, many guys who date tgirls, and many tgirls who date guys like me, prefer being called bi, not gays.

[Vivian Best]

Why do many people assume that cd's are gay?


I am the one that causes this. Whenever I go out to clubs and bars, I tell everyone that CDs are gay.

Seriously, I think it is the lack of knowledge and information. I think we tend to be thrown in with gays because they are more vocal and visible and it's handy because they don't know what else to do with us. I think if CDrs were to come out as the gays/lesbians have we could change that assumption. Personally, I think it will be a long time coming because most CDrs are one item dressers, underclothes dressers and etc. We do not have the motivation to be accepted that the gays have had over the years.

Vivian:rose2:

[ava_bruna]

all you need do is define GAY, if it fit's, SO WHAT???? I myself had a bf who I had fun with and learnd that im not gay, but so what? we had mutual fun and for me it was exciting,but I dont think im GAY, Bi YES!!!! so be what you want and if you enjoy it, !!**** GREAT~~~***

OOoppsss, here we go again:(

[Eugenie]

Why do many people assume that cd's are gay?
Well... Perhaps one reason is the old caricature that was made of Gay men as being effeminate as for example in "La Cage aux Folle" movie, and in many other movies or theater plays.

If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones.
There is some truth in that. Many gay men are looking for "male looking" partners. It is easy to see that on the cover pages of gay magazines. There is even a subgroup of gay people who resent the "effeminate" image given to gays so uch that they become almost homophobes towards those homosexuals who are indeed effeminate... By extenssion some really dyslike us CDs...

Finally, as far as being "straight" I believe that it is difficult to be one hundred percent sure that one is totally straight. I thought I was but faced with a specific situation I realized that I was at least Bi...

:hugs:
Eugenie

[Sky]

If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones.


There is some truth in that. Many gay men are looking for "male looking" partners.

Sorry, Eugenie, but I'm getting a bit peeved about some preconceived notions which seem to run rampant in our community. And since we complain when the "majority" shows how little they know about us, we should make an honest effort to understand ourselves for starters.

Many gay men look for male looking partners. Many go the extra step and look for the old leathery Tom of Finland style. Many others look for princess-like tgirls in lace and frills. And many couldn't care less about what their partner wears. "Many" is a word with, well, many interpretations. At least you did not say "surely" like Emma did.

You could rephrase the previous paragraph replacing "gay" with "straight", "lesbian" or any word of your choice. And extend the description to cover as many wardrobe tendencies, lifestyles or looks you want.

Don't stereotype. I have dated guys who are bi, not gay, and don't want to be called gays, while some others indeed are gay and that does not seem to be an issue between us.

[suzanne claire]

Since crossdressing as a female is not in accordance with the traditional male role,it is easy to identify it as a gay trait.Society does not understand what or why we do crossdress,so it is simple to assume that we are gay..

[Kathrynn]

Hi Emma!
My name is Kathrynn, and i am a Gay, TRANSGENDERED crossdresser. I have been wearing womens clothing since i was 5 years old. And have continued to do so ever since. I think gay crossdressers, are the minority in this forum. I have been reading most all of the posts, and for the most part many of you have wonderful supporting S/O's. I don't agree with the thought, that gay crossdressers dress for sexual gratification. I think that most are as i am transgendered. And i know a lot of us are not real feminine looking. if you want check out my picture in the profile page. I am not really a pretty girl but i am not bad. Not trying to be nasty, but i am better looking than other pictures that i have seen.
Thankyou for thread and letting me give my thoughts.
Kathrynn

[HaleyPink2000]

I have a very nice Gay couple as my friends.:D He's very Male, and She's a M2F CD. She is 100% beautiful and passes big time. You'd never know She was a Man. They have been together 11 years. Married and everything. But both are Genetic Males. As was said Gay people " Male or female " are as diverse as any other culture, people.0.02

Kathrynn:

BTW your georgeous! Nice to meet you over the forum!:happy:

[Gurly]

Unfortunately certain stereotypes will probably never be broken and equating a man dressed as a woman as ALWAYS gay is one of those. Some people will believe what they want, no matter what. Otherwise, it would be easy to come out for those of us that are still in the closet. As John Lennon said, " I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together". (Actually that has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to quote the Beatles 'cause I think they're cool!)

[trannie T]

Most people are not familiar with crossdressing or crossdressers. The only crossdressers they have seen have been on Jerry Springer. They then are able to make the connection between being a crossdresser and being a raving fruitcake. There are few if any heterosexual crossdressers in the public eye. As there are so many of us hopefully someone will come out of the closet and present a positive image to the public.

[Khriss]

.. Ideas, preconceptions, + negative experiences ....
...turned towards needs for justifiable "beliefs" ...go figure !?
add some denial of fear (s)...
truth , is ......?

[JoannaDees]

I would think it's because you are trying to look and behave like a woman. And women like men. Why do women dress as they do at times, well, especially in the form that cd's so often take? To attract men. It's all part of the territory, just accept it and go on, take no never mind.

[jenni_xx]

Hi Emma

To be honest, I'm not too bothered whether anyone thinks I am gay or not because of my crossdressing. What I am truly bothered about is being accepted first and foremost as a crossdresser. Homosexuality seems to be, not just tolerated, but much more accepted in today's day and age (which naturally is a good thing). But with crossdressing, I'm not so sure that it has been accepted to the extent that homosexuality has. For example, you don't hear of many people who are asked to leave a shop because they are gay. But we hear of many people's experiences where they are treated negatively, to the point of being outcasted, simply because of their desire to wear feminine clothing. This is something that bothers me a great deal.

I'm not gay. If a person thinks I am, and has based this presumption upon my crossdressing, then it is up to me to put them straight (excuse the pun). I think others on this thread who have talked about crossdressing = femininity = being gay have it spot on. The key to changing this stereotype for me lies in making people understand crossdressing more. And that means us bringing crossdressing out in the open more. If every crossdresser (which I've heard is 10% (rough estimate) of the male population were fully open about their crossdressing, then can you imagine the diluting affect that would have on society if every 10th man they saw, in the street, in a club, in a bar, in work, in their circle of friends, etc etc, wore a dress? I think that people would get so used to this to the point of it never being an issue for them. And could you imagine how successfully wiped away the stereotype of crossdressers being gay would be if 7 or 8 of those crossdressers were seen with a girlfriend/wife on their arms? In short, the route to acceptance and understanding, lies in exposure.

Admittedly, I say all this with the knowledge that I am not (yet) confident enough to openly display my crossdressing in public on a continual basis. I suspect that most crossdressers on this forum (and in the world more generally) are exactly the same. But who else can we rely on for us to change the misconceptions about crossdressers other than ourselves? In this respect, it could be argued that we only have ourselves to blame for not educating the public conception about crossdressers to the extent that it needs to be educated. But, and I say this with my hand clasped firmly against my heart, I am getting to the point whereby I am getting sick and tired of hiding away my true identity from the world. It is frustrating personally, and above all else, I just shouldn't have to.

[Sky]

" I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together". (Actually that has nothing to do with anything, I just wanted to quote the Beatles 'cause I think they're cool!)

She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(pre-1966 Beatles are not so quotable)

[Sophia Rearen]

I was watching the HBO special on the Bunny Ranch in Nevada. The first client they showed was a CD. The woman that hosted his party was shocked to learn that he was a heterosexual, that he only liked women! After they had sex she complimented his knowledge and skills. A small victory for us, perhaps? A was dumbfounded that a professional in the trade had no idea about crossdressers.

[Brianna Lovely]

Maybe that's one of the main reasons for society’s non-acceptance of CDers.

Maybe if more of us were willing to just be ourselves, "a man in a dress", people would get used to seeing us for just that.

But, if you dress, put on makeup, breasts, and a wig, then you're pretending to be a woman and right now, that's not accepted behavior.

[Julia Cross]

Brianna,

I have believed this for a long time. I think the biggest difficulty people have with crossdressing is the pretending/deception. And I realize why we do pretend, it does seem natural that if you are going to dress in a women's clothes, why not behave like women, maybe we subconsciouly think that is what is expected. But unless you can pull it off 100% then most people will see you as trying to be something you are not and add to that the obvious and people will put up their gaurds.

Why does dressing mean that you need to change your voice, your mannerisms, your demeanour, everything about you. Some change will naturally come wih the change in apparel, walking will be altered by the shoes, as will it by the skirt or dress. Posture by the tightness of ones outfit. The way you pick things up by your manicured nails and the list goes on. But not everything needs to changed over, voice, other mannerisms, and certain personal details not so obvious.

I feel acceptance would be easier to achieve if we could find a happy medium between being the person we are while wearing what we enjy wearing. You don't see women changing their voices or mannerisms just because they are wearing jeans and a sweatshirt, and yes when they are dressed up in heels they also change their walk.

I love to dress up, but I think my GF isn't as alarmed by it because she still sees the man she loves behind the clothes. I sound like me, I walk like me, I smell like me and other than a change in clothing, I am still me.

I realize there are many degress of dressing and reasons why. So obviously my observations do not apply to everyone. And each of us has our reasons and our own needs and desires when it comes to dressing. But in general, I feel acceptance is somewhat hindered by the percieved deception by non crossdressers.

Julia

[Eugenie]

Sorry, Eugenie, but I'm getting a bit peeved about some preconceived notions which seem to run rampant in our community.

Many gay men look for male looking partners. Many go the extra step and look for the old leathery Tom of Finland style. Many others look for princess-like tgirls in lace and frills. And many couldn't care less about what their partner wears. "Many" is a word with, well, many interpretations. At least you did not say "surely" like Emma did.

I'm sorry that my comment hurt your feelings. I was trying to be moderate in my expression. Being in touch quite often with a group of active advocates of the Gay community belonging to ILGA (International Lesbien and Gay Association) I am conscious of the need to avoid discriminatory stereotypes.

The observation that "many" gay men prefer male looking men to effeminate looking men is not derogatory. The advocates I meet tend to be in that category. I agree though that "many" is quite imprecise.

As I said in my post the fact that some gays would like to make this the only politically correct way to be gay is indeed derogatory and even discriminatory. It is explainable as they want to reject the poor image of the gays given by popular medias (fictions or documentaries) Image of gays being all effeminate (remember "La cage aux Folles"). This is of course also wrong. But criticising those who like to be effeminate or x-dress is discriminatory.

I agree with you though, there are many ways to be gay. All are as respectable.

Note that I had a similar discussion with my own daughter who is gay. She was saying the same thing "One must have the freedom to express how one choses to live his/her sexual orientation". She was disapproving the gays "integrists" who criticise other gays because they look effeminate or dress as women.

Likewise there are many ways to be a X-dresser and all are respectable.

Love.

Eugenie

[Sky]

Thanks! The clarification helped a lot.


The observation that "many" gay men prefer male looking men to effeminate looking men is not derogatory.

Indeed I wasn't looking at it from the "derogatory" point of view. I just thought it was a too-wide generalization, a bit fuzzy around the edges.


I agree with you though, there are many ways to be gay. All are as respectable. (...) Likewise there are many ways to be a X-dresser and all are respectable.

That was exactly my point and I'm glad we agree on it.

Too bad we are cool now, because I was going to ask for an apology in the shape of a ticket to Southern France... you have all year long the weather we have two or three months if we're lucky... if that's not discrimination I don't know what is. :p

:love: ,
Sky

[Gurly]

She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah.
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(pre-1966 Beatles are not so quotable)

No, but it still sounds great!!

[JoannaDees]

Maybe that's one of the main reasons for society’s non-acceptance of CDers.

Maybe if more of us were willing to just be ourselves, "a man in a dress", people would get used to seeing us for just that.

But, if you dress, put on makeup, breasts, and a wig, then you're pretending to be a woman and right now, that's not accepted behavior.

From my experience, that route begs to be called "gay". This is just some ear rings, tight jeans, women's shoes. Hard to hear, but it does trigger, "Just WTF ARE you trying to portray?" Inexplicable, it's just what I want to wear.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Maybe that's one of the main reasons for society’s non-acceptance of CDers.

Maybe if more of us were willing to just be ourselves, "a man in a dress", people would get used to seeing us for just that.

But, if you dress, put on makeup, breasts, and a wig, then you're pretending to be a woman and right now, that's not accepted behavior.

Yes and no.

I think the "pretending" aspect probably does freak some people out. OTOH, I've generally had few problems while out and I think that's in part because people understand I'm presenting my as ifI were a woman, so they're willing to treat as I were one. So I'm not really challenging the gender binary.

To be honest, even in San Francisco, I suspect I'd attract more attention if I was clearly mixing gender appearances. I'm not talking about a gender neutral or androgynous style of dress that some people here in fact do, nor overt gender f*cking (like wearing a cocktail dress and combat boots). I'm talking about things like, wearing full make-up and dangly earrings with my normal guy clothes, or wearing a man's t-shirt and peasant skirt -- both things I might actually do if I were a little braver and society were a bit more accepting.


Hmm.... For the upcoming Gay Pride parade it might be a fun experiment. Yeah, it might draw attention, but I'd hardly be the most outlandishly dressed person there.

[Amelie]

Marlena my post here is not meant as an answer or attack of your post.

I know that everyone should do whatever they want, they should be free to go to places that they feel comfortable at.

But one thing that I don't understand is, many straight CDs go to gay bars and gay pride parades, and then some of these Cds then complain or write threads that they are unfairly called being gay.
I know that gay clubs are safer for straight Cds, but if you want the stereotype to end, then maybe straight Cds should start going to primarily straight clubs or at least go to a mixed enviorment.
Sometimes straight CDs help reinforce the stereotype that all or most cds are gay.

Also I read on this forum where people say that cds need to achieve acceptance from society. Then it will be mentioned that the gays have gained so much more acceptance than Cds. Well if this is true, then why is being called gay a bad thing, one would think that if gays have so much more of societies acceptance and that Cds are considered gay, then Cds should have this similar acceptance from society.

Anyway, why is it so bad to be called gay, even if you aren't.
I mean, sometimes when I meet people, some of them think that I am straight, because some people know that most cds are straight. But it doesn't bother me when someone thinks that I am straight. I don't write threads on why do some people call me straight. It doesn't change my views of people, I don't hide because people think that I am straight. I don't wait for all the people of the world to understand who I am in order to live my life. If some people think that I am straight, well so what, life goes on.

[Lisa Golightly]

Well said Amelie.

[Priscilla Ann]

I know that gay clubs are safer for straight Cds, but if you want the stereotype to end, then maybe straight Cds should start going to primarily straight clubs or at least go to a mixed enviorment.
Sometimes straight CDs help reinforce the stereotype that all or most cds are gay.



Well, as for me I don't go to straight or mixed clubs en femme because I don't want to be the ugliest approximation of a woman in the place. As a matter of fact, I went dressed to a straight club one Halloween and the first thing a guy said to me was "You make an ugly woman." Geez, I was old enough to be his mother but I think I would have felt better if he had said...."Are you gay?"
I have always wonder if I could answer that question...." I haven't decided yet. I'll get back to you later, okay?

Amelie, is the reason I keep getting asked "Are you gay?" .....I knew it...I just knew it!!!:D

[ava_bruna]

You heard the saying before, " If it feel's good do it? or "If the shoe fit's" the shoe one leave's a question in my mind. do we HAVE to be what we THINK we are? why not just enjoy it and" DO YOUR THING ". I act out almost every morning to with my wife sitting beside me havig her coffee, all I say is how much I enjoy myself, she could care less so why not do it?, Im Bi if that make's any difference, I sometime's think maybe im Gay, but so what? there is room on this earth for us all. " Dont knock it unless youve been there and didnt like it." " AMEN":)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Agreed. Well said, Amelie.

[Brianna Lovely]

Yes and no.

I'm talking about things like, wearing full make-up and dangly earrings with my normal guy clothes, or wearing a man's t-shirt and peasant skirt -- both things I might actually do if I were a little braver and society were a bit more accepting.

There have been some interesting replies to this thread.
I've only recently pulled together the nerve to go out. Ok, maybe just thrown all caution to the wind. (and yes, I'm old enough to be someones grandma)

I've gone out with full makeup (no other fem stuff) and gone to WalMart and some other stores, during the day time. I'm getting ready to go out in a skirt and tank top. The only debate I'm having is whether to go in semi-guy mode, or full fem mode.

If it makes any difference, I'm gay, but don't think that has anything to do with my dressing.

[ava_bruna]

this is it for me, why is it that ppl cant accept the fact that WE ARE WHAT WE ARE? and if they dont like it, screw you.~~~****, you want to call me something? CALL ME Gay, Bi, st8, perverted take your pick!!!!

[ReginaK]

Why do many people assume that cd's are gay?

If a cd was passable, then surely a gay man would not be interested as they are more likely to look at masculine men rather than femme ones.

I am straight myself. Yes I admit, I do look at gg's in both a sexual and beauty way.

Because women's clothes are feminine. The archaic institution of psychology equates effeminacy in males to homosexuality. Why? Because only feminine is attracted to masculine in their vision of a proper, binary society.

[Julie Avery]

With regard to the original question:

Long after I had ample reason to understand that mtf CD's came in all sexual persuasions, I had my first workplace encounters with several ftm CD's.

I assumed they were lesbian.

I don't know why, but it was a really strong assumption - I mean, I never even thought twice about it, for the four years I worked for the corporation I'm talking about.

The people in question weren't part of my own workgroup, just in the same building, so the only time I saw them was in the halls, elevators, smoking lounge, and we never interacted. I never got to know better. Only in the few months since I've participated on this forum have I come to realize how stereotypical my own assumption was, and how it exactly mirrors the assumptions many people (innocently, naively) make about mtf cd's.

So I can understand how people make this assumption about mtf cd's.

[ReginaK]

I know that gay clubs are safer for straight Cds, but if you want the stereotype to end, then maybe straight Cds should start going to primarily straight clubs or at least go to a mixed enviorment.

You're right. They are safer. But until they allow guns in the club, i'm not going anywhere near a straight club dressed as a woman.


Also I read on this forum where people say that cds need to achieve acceptance from society. Then it will be mentioned that the gays have gained so much more acceptance than Cds. Well if this is true, then why is being called gay a bad thing, one would think that if gays have so much more of societies acceptance and that Cds are considered gay, then Cds should have this similar acceptance from society.

A straight person accepted as a gay person isn't really being accepted for who they. It's erroneus acception. Kinda like taking an award you didn't win.



Anyway, why is it so bad to be called gay, even if you aren't.

Because at the end of the day, straight, crossdressing men are still men. And a lot of men (not all) hate having their sexuality questioned.