Ignorance About Crossdressing

[Melanie R]

Today I just happened to see a thread on the www.christianity.com board under the heading of Morality and Ethics and Crossdressing Husband. Visit this site and you quickly begin to see how much work we have to do in educating people in the church, ministers and counselors. We hope that many will see the documentary on Women Married to Crossdressers when it airs on the WE, Women's Entertainment channel in September in the "Secret Lives of Women" series. Most in organized religion do not know the difference between sex and gender and are convinced that crossdressing is not acceptable behavior.

Hugs,

Melanie

[Jodi Lynn]

I know that my wife is very involved in church. And when she found out that I crossdress she told me I was mentaly ill. It seems that she told the pastor and that was what he told her I am, so that is what she belives. I have tried to get her to read some papers and to get her to learn but she is very closed minded about the subject.

[Tamara Croft]

Just visit the Religion forum and the Depression forum on this site and you can see the same thing there.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

You aren't going to change their minds, they have an absolute belief in their own "rightness". It's all black and white. I'm a D&D player, we've had similar issues and trying to convince the evangelicals they were wrong on D&D simply did not work. You can try all you want, but it's an exercise in futility.

The smart thing would be for all those closeted evangelical CD's to come out to their churches, and then leave them to find new ones. IMHO any T-person who is a member of a T-person hating denomination is contributing to their own opression and is part of the problem. There is a lack of self acceptance and some self hatred among that set of CD's.


Veronica

[Gurly]

Give it up if you are going to try educating the church/ministers about crossdressing. They will never see the light. Maybe a few individuals but as a whole they will never accept crossdressing as anything less than mentally ill or possibly even evil.

[kwebb]

I'm not wrapped tight enough or nearly as self assured as you Melanie. Reading that will only cause more hate to show up in my life. I work with these "super apostles" daily and they have recently run me off the job with their hurtful comments about tg.

Don't know how much longer I can stand it.

[Darlene Rochelle]

Most evagelical and fundmentalist Christians see everything as Black & White. If The Pastor says so,it's Truth and you dare not dispute it. It is definately that way here in the Bible Belt of Chattanooga0.02

[Elsie GG]

Hey folks -
There are churches that are affirming of who-ever comes through their doors. At the United Church of Christ that I attend, we have a couple trans-gender women, and gays and lesbians, and cross-dressers (although people don't realize it). They have even voted at the national conference to support gay and lesbian marriage rights. If you search on Open and Affirming you will find references for affirming churches. Some churches in one denomination may be more open than another.

If you want some interesting reading try John Shelby Spong. Spong (who is a retired episcopol bishop) in his book Sins of the Scripture, goes in depth on why the scriptures are mis-interpreted, in support of birth control, women's rights, gay and lesbian rights, etc.

Sometimes we try and stereo type groups and organizations, but remember organizations, just like people, are unique.

[Connieminiskirts]

I have been through this kind of discussion with a few "pastors". I was raised in the 'Mormon' church but have not been to church at all anywhere for several years. Trucking kinda lends a hand in that of course.
But as in these meeting with church people, whether Mormon, Baptist, Christian, Presbeteryian, or what have you they all quote the same passage of scripture,, Det. 5:22! " A man is no th wear that of a woman" and vice-versa.Which is okay except that when they do so, I point out the rest of what it say's, such as 'when you build a new house, your to put a handrail around the roof to keep people from falling off, or your not supposed top plant more than one kind of seed in your garded(vineyard), and your not suppose to wear linen and cotten together. etc etc. To which EVERYONE of these people, (and yes I do mean all religeons), has stated is "Well that was just form the Jew's at that time. And I asked them all "Well if all these "comands" were just for the Jew's back then, Why are you so intent on saying that THIS ONE verse is the ONLY one that is to be enforced? When did God change the Rules?
This most always gets the person to either stare at me blankley and mutter a "well I don't know" or else I am asked to "Please leave my church".. TO which I reply, "I thought this was GOD'S church, I sure didnt see your name on the sign outside" I have yet to get a response to that.

But in the long run, I do agree that the minds of people are made up and thats that. Such as my wife has a friend who's pastor told her that "Mormons" are evil devil woshippers and you can tell them by sight! "They all have RED eyes that glow in the dark!!!"

Hmm You can tell Crossdressers by sight too! We all have horns and long pointy tails and claw feet!!!!

Sorry but I get a little carried away. Didnt mean to offend anyone if I have. Bye

[trannie T]

We do some really strange things in the name of the Prince of Peace. Makes one proud to be an athiest.

[michellecd9999]

As a Christian, I have surfed many sites looking for answers. One good site is http://www.themarriagebed.com
They have a more realistic view of sex and sexual things. I have posted a few things there to educate as well. Most Christian sites associate CDing with homosexuality and adultry. As long as one keeps faithful to one's wife I don't know what sin is being commited!
Michelle

[LaSirenaBella]

You aren't going to change their minds, they have an absolute belief in their own "rightness". It's all black and white. I'm a D&D player, we've had similar issues and trying to convince the evangelicals they were wrong on D&D simply did not work. You can try all you want, but it's an exercise in futility.


Oh, let's not go there. Until last year, my mother still thought I was depressed in the ninth grade because I started playing AD&D. Never mind my parents were fighting and working on getting divorced.

:mad:

[AngelAshley]

I really hate it when christians and other religios groups try to inflict their warped views on me... I had some dude come up to me while I was up in London the other day, I was dressed in a short white skirt & white top... and was asking me stuff like, why was I locking myself out of God's kingdom, and God won't accept you into his kingdom dressed like that. So I just responded, well if god can't accept me for who I am, then maybe I don't want to live in his kingdom. Besides, according to what I know about christianity, god created me like this, so it's his fault in the first place.

My friend who I was with had less tollerence, she just told him to f**k off.

[michelle-h]

There are some churches that are more tolerant than others. The Episcopal Church spreads a message of tolerance and God's love. We are definitely more accepting than any other mainstream churches that I know of. There is also a national support group within the church for the GLBT community. It is called Integrity, and has chapters all over the US. Here's the website for anyone who is interested. http://www.integrityusa.org/ I don't have a chapter here, but that may change if I have anything to do with it.

There are some openminded churches out there, and I think they just want to help us get closer to God, without condemning us to Hell. Just my 0.02 .

Michelle-H

[~Dee~]

There are lots of organisations that seek to change peoples views and speak as though their ways are the only ways.
Nowadays its not just churches, but they do seem to be everywhere .. so they tend to be the ones we think of when we think of these sorts of organisations.

but, ive met some people who were very tolerant even though they are religious ... and then there are some who just are totally nuts in my mind and they would Never change their mind.
One person i went to school was very religious.. his head churchy guy had told his flock that Buddhists were evil because as they meditate they are actually controlling evil spirits and making them kill people ...
:straightface:
huh?

but no matter what you said to him, thats what he now believes.
some people have an open mind and some have such a closed off mind that they just cant see whats real or terribly false.
i dont think that its the organisations per se .. as there are some that do preach about understanding and unity and umm .. other good stuff ..
but some people seem to think that excluding others makes them somehow much more divine.

i am no way religious .. but ive come to understand that these people who believe dead set in being faithful ... they tend not to want to change their minds .. not ever .. never .. nope.
not unless the head churchy guy is going to come and tell them its allowed.
and you dont become head zealot overnight... you are carefully sculpted in your beliefs for this to occur.
so in that way i dont think that education is really going to help ..
steering clear is the only way i can see that you will get any good outcome.

for all i know they must think im possessed by a evil female spirit .. and thats whats making me do all this ..
and the last thing i need is them pounding on the door asking if ill succumb to an exorcism. :rolleyes:

afterally .. these are their solid beliefs .. find those that are able to have an open mind ... and leave those that have a more firmer stance to their own beliefs ...then they can be happy in their faith and we are both happy.
you dont want them trying to shatter your beliefs of dressing and such .. i dont think theyd look at education in any less of a way.

mind you, those with an open mind are fun to debate religious stuff with. :happy: and you dont come away as some kind of mentally ill evil person.

[Sophia Rearen]

Hey folks -
There are churches that are affirming of who-ever comes through their doors. At the United Church of Christ that I attend, we have a couple trans-gender women, and gays and lesbians, and cross-dressers (although people don't realize it). They have even voted at the national conference to support gay and lesbian marriage rights. If you search on Open and Affirming you will find references for affirming churches. Some churches in one denomination may be more open than another.

Sometimes we try and stereo type groups and organizations, but remember organizations, just like people, are unique.

As a follow up; http://i.ucc.org/LiveYourHope/OpenandAffirming/tabid/156/Default.aspx

[Sophia Rearen]

I really hate it when christians and other religios groups try to inflict their warped views on me... I had some dude come up to me while I was up in London the other day, I was dressed in a short white skirt & white top... and was asking me stuff like, why was I locking myself out of God's kingdom, and God won't accept you into his kingdom dressed like that. So I just responded, well if god can't accept me for who I am, then maybe I don't want to live in his kingdom. Besides, according to what I know about christianity, god created me like this, so it's his fault in the first place.

My friend who I was with had less tollerence, she just told him to f**k off.

Two different and effective responses. Well said, the two of you.

[~Kitty GG~]

The thing about religion is that RIGHT is whatever the individual believes is written in the pages of their holy book.

No matter what the religion or the faction within the different religions.. The book is what they're trying to follow. And so it goes to interpretation.

But for us or for anyone to say they are wrong.. how can we make that judgement? If they believe their holy book says that the faithful must only eat bananas. Then to be faithful they MUST do that.

We could show them all manner of scientific research saying that a diet of only bananas is harmful.

Its about faith. And if someone has faith in their religion then they follow it to the word. They're looking for the reward that's given to the faithful.

Now why would someone be faithful unless they believed their holy book was 100% right and their deity was omnipotent? They wouldn't. And so what ever opinions or even facts that earthly man can show the faithful just won't stack up to what their deity tells them in their holy book.

So... in the end I find its silly and counterproductive to try to change someone's deeply held personal beliefs & morals.

I think that its much better to be respectful to all people. And to not hitch myself to someone that shares beliefs or morals that I can't or won't live up to. Or to someone who can't or won't live up to the beliefs and morals that I hold.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[corsetedgirl]

They struggle to understand people dressing in the other sexes clothes but seem happy to follow what boils down to tricks and stories from thousands of years ago from a book that should be in the fiction section of the library.
We have no need to educate them, forget them. :straightface:

[Sky]

They struggle to understand people dressing in the other sexes clothes but seem happy to follow what boils down to tricks and stories from thousands of years ago from a book that should be in the fiction section of the library.
We have no need to educate them, forget them. :straightface:

Ummm... not sure about that. I'm an agnostic myself, but giving up on educating the believers means to shut the door for those who are both cd's and believers. Or, if you prefer, force them to choose sides.

[ChristyCD]

As a Christian, it hurts to see so much self-righteousness.

Matthwew 7:2-4

For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

We are all human, and we express our humanity in different ways. Just like there are different types of CDers, there are different types of Christians, too.

The only thing we all have in common is that we are human. We all have faults and shortcomings. Some people are a little better at dealing with their own faults. Still, others deal with their shortcomings by pointing out a "bigger" shortcoming with another person.

If anything, being a CDer has helped me to become more compassionate person. I am not concerned about what you do, but what kind of person you are.

I'm sure this debate has been going on for as long as can be remembered, and I am pretty sure it will continue.

Keep up the fight, girls...let's educate them one at a time!

[Melanie R]

The thread on the crossdressing husband was closed by the board. When we asked the reason here was the answer:

Thank you for taking the time to email me.

Our Community is not the ideal platform to forcefully promote the acceptability of homosexuality and/or cross-dressing.

It is for this reason that the thread was removed.

Unfortunately, as a result of this activity, we must restrict your involvement in discussions related to the following topics under our right reserved under #20 of the Terms of Service.
http://l.salemweb.net/CommunityTermsOfService

Restricted folders and/or topics:

Homosexuality

Cross-dressing

Sincerely,

Fritz
Manager of Communities

We as well as others were trying to help this wife who was struggling with her husband's crossdressing. We were promoting education but obviously they only want statements condemning the acceptance of crossdressing and as expected they equate crossdressing with homosexuality. This board is part of the largest "Christian" broadcasting network in the world and is visited by thousands daily.

Melanie

[WendyCD]

In terms of tolerance, compassion, understanding and forgiveness there is more christianity here on this forum than many places. The Ten Commandments didn't say anything about what clothes you wear or having fun.

Instead, they tell us to love your neighbor, be honest and true to your spouse, etc... There are alot of posts here that are written by people who are trying to do just that.

It's hard, for those crossing between genders, and for their spouses, to always do the right thing for each other. But if your heart is right and you try, you can be forgiven. IMHO

[Kimberly]

It's even got a "men with long hair" thread... bashing them!!

That's disgusting. Organised religion can just suck my .............

No, I'm not going to say it. Don't wanna get banned now. :)

A great man once said: "Without religion we have bad people doing bad things, and good people doing good things. With religion we have bad people doing bad things, and good people doing bad things."

Judgemental. Very Jedgemental

[unclejoann]

Both CNN and FAUXNews had stories about 666 the other day because they equated June 6, 2006 with 666. So long as the leading news sources for the masses cater to the dumbing down of America we cannot expect tolerance from the fundamentalists (christian or any other type).

For anyone interested in a history of the macho male dominated world I recommend "The Chalice and the Blade" by Riane Eisler. It gives a very good history of the early church and the suppression of gospels that didn't fit what the government was willing to embrace as a religion. Within 200 years of Jesus' death, his message was reversed to intolerance.

[LaceyDee]

When it comes to topics such as this, I am very glad that I am an athiest. The church , in my opinion, teaches hate. Whatever happened to "love thy neighbor as thyself"?

Don't get me started...........................!!!!!

[VeronicaMoonlit]

We as well as others were trying to help this wife who was struggling with her husband's crossdressing. We were promoting education but obviously they only want statements condemning the acceptance of crossdressing and as expected they equate crossdressing with homosexuality. This board is part of the largest "Christian" broadcasting network in the world and is visited by thousands daily.

Melanie

What else did you expect? Look all the discussion on various boards and whatnot on faith n' crossdressing by those CD's who just happen to be evangelical is a waste of time/effort. Just quit the denominations and become unitarians or atheists or something. Cut your losses and run. :-)


Veronica

[Teresa Amina]

Just quit the denominations and become unitarians or atheists or something. Cut your losses and run. :-)Veronica

Life is too weird to be an atheist, but there are many alternatives to X-tianity. You can't convert totalitarians to liberals, be yourself, but somewhere else.

[Lilith Moon]

I went along to take a look at that website.

I happen to have an interest in evolution science so naturally took a look at some relevant forums. They are not only ignorant about human gender and sexuality, they are agressively ignorant about science, especially evolution.

One message, for example, said this:
"I don't understand evolution and, as a Christian, I don't want to understand it"

Depressing site :(

[Kimberly]

Depressing site :(
Severely so...

Just makes me angry.

[MistyCD]

The Religeous Right wing is neither!!!!

There was an interesting article in the newspaper yesterday about some religeous right winged group in Kansas called the Westboro baptist Church (WBC)that goes out an protests whenever a gay person dies. Seems they have a new twist...they are protesting at funerals for vets who die in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan saying they are dying because God is punishing them for homosexuality in the USA... what a bunch of s**t...
******************************************
OPERATION HERO ALERT:


Funeral Services for Seargent Evan Seam Parker
Counter-Protest of WBC
Wednesday, 11/2/2005*
South Haven Public School - South Haven, KS





OPERATION HERO is spreading word of a planned picket by Westboro Baptist Church
during the memorial service of Seargent Evan Seam Parker.
Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church will be picketing during the
funeral service for Sgt. Evan Seam Parker on Wednesday, November 2 in South Haven, KS.
This anti-Troops/anti-war "liberal" hate group will be protesting
from 1pm - 2pm outside the High School where services are being held.
The funeral service is scheduled to begin at 2pm, so Fred and his protestors are
purposely protesting during the time when most people will be arriving for the services themselves.


Please show your support for this hero!

*****************************************



I personally think the whole WBC should be deported to Iraq.

sorry for my rants....but that really burns me up !!!

Misty

[Kimberly]

I heard about this extreme example.

Sorry girls - but only in America...

[Olivia]

To hell with organized religion. That is the source of more hatred, self-righteousness, prejudice and judgemental so-called "christians". One may be a spiritual person without playing along with those Bible-thumping devil-dodgers who place their faith in the "word of God". Yeah right. The Bible was written by men-ignorant, primitive men-and their interpretation of what is right and wrong. Hold firm to your own faith and beliefs. You are just as right as "they" are. Hold your head up, Olivia.

[ReginaK]

Calling them ignorant is giving them too much credit. People like them who refuse to even listen to multiple sides of an issue are flat out stupid.

[Joanie]

This Westboro Baptist Church thing celebrating the death of soldiers is absolutley revolting! I am a Christian and can not imagine any Christian I know openly taking part in anything like that! With all due respect, are we sure of the validity of this article, that this is accurate and not simply an internet myth?

Please don't judge an entire faith by a snippet of information like this. I need only look at the aftermath of Katrina, the countless church groups that were there. The church I worked with took requests from homeowners to do everything from clear debris in yards, to remove flood damaged walls and replace them, etc. All done, of course, at no charge There is so much outreach to people and good that goes on in the name of Christ--our church is involved in a mission to Tanzania-shipping and installing basic infrastructre material like water pipes to channel clean mountain water into a village, thus eliminating the need for people to take chances drinking from river water that contains fecal matter from animals. And don't forget the Christian's Children Fund out of Richmond, Virginia-$25.00 a month to help a child in need. This list could go on and on but I think the message is clear. Any Christians who advocate hate at this WBC group apparently does are vastly outnumbered by those quietly trying to improve the lot of their fellow man and woman.

[Taffy]

You aren't going to change their minds, they have an absolute belief in their own "rightness". It's all black and white. I'm a D&D player, we've had similar issues and trying to convince the evangelicals they were wrong on D&D simply did not work. You can try all you want, but it's an exercise in futility.

The phrase, "like teaching a pig to sing," comes to mind. It wastes your time and annoys the pig...

Taffy

[Katiegirl]

I have found this thread interesting and in the the religious discussion group we too have discussed this subject many times

Melanie R and any others if you want to see those threads could I suggest you join that group and view some of those threads.


0.02

[tori-e]

This is very funny. Thanks for making me smile!:D




Testiculos habet et bene pendentes

[tori-e]

I'd just like to add that I recently came out as TS to two significant people in my life. I was a bit concerned because they are very strong Catholics. To my surprise, they have been amazingly supportive and though they are strong Catholics they recognize that love and tolerance are an important part of their beliefs. Regardless of if the official party line is to try to fix the likes of us.

[Kimberly]

I'd just like to add that I recently came out as TS to two significant people in my life. I was a bit concerned because they are very strong Catholics. To my surprise, they have been amazingly supportive and though they are strong Catholics they recognize that love and tolerance are an important part of their beliefs. Regardless of if the official party line is to try to fix the likes of us.
I've done this too... A couple I'm friends with, one is catholic, whilst the other traditional protestant, and they're both quite happy about it!!

Good friends :hugs:

[Holly]

Is it just me, or does this thread contain a high level of intolerance to people of faith in general and Christians in particular? I always thought that as transgendered people, we were more sensitive to the destructive force that intolerance brings with it. Just as we all do not wish to be judged by the action of a few of some of the more, shall we say, flamyboyant members of our community, we should be the last people to jump to condemming people with beliefs different from our own. Would you like to be judged on the basis of the antics of Dennis Rodman? It is just as wrong for us to condemm people of faith on the antics of a relative few.

Holly
Moderator, Religious Discussion Group

[VeronicaMoonlit]

Is it just me, or does this thread contain a high level of intolerance to people of faith in general and Christians in particular?

It's mostly in response to the hatred shown to the TG community. Some of us have had bad experience dealing with evangelicals/conservatives. If they want to hate me, fine, but not being a Christian, I will not turn the other cheek and walk away.

I am not a member of the Religous forum here for a reason, most TG religous forums are full of conservatives agonizing over reconciling their faith with their CDing. I think that's futile, they should just quit whining, quit their churches and be done with it. Why support the offering plate of your own oppression? Anything else is a waste of precious time.


Veronica

[Ms. Donna]

Is it just me, or does this thread contain a high level of intolerance to people of faith in general and Christians in particular?
I think it a reaction to the lack of tolerance or even the attempt at understanding the TG community gets from the 'church' as an institution.


I always thought that as transgendered people, we were more sensitive to the destructive force that intolerance brings with it.
Which is why we are able to spot it so well - even when disgused with supposedly good intentions.

Need an example: look up Exodus International. Also, have a look at the thread Found On Way To Other Things (http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32283) over in the TG/TS forum here.


Just as we all do not wish to be judged by the action of a few of some of the more, shall we say, flamyboyant members of our community, we should be the last people to jump to condemming people with beliefs different from our own.
These are not the actions of a few, these are national and international organizations - out to save us from ourselves - all in the name of God.

Go ask the Vatican their views on this. Q.E.D.


It is just as wrong for us to condemm people of faith on the antics of a relative few.
Not a relative few. Christianity as a religion and the church as an institution thereof does not teach tolerance and acceptance of the transgedered any more than they do so of gays. We are not accepted or tolerated - we are pitied. We are told that we are sinners, that we are violating God's law. We are talked down to, preached to - told how we need to be 'saved' lest we burn in hell. :evilbegon:


I am genuinely happy that you have resolved being TG and your relationship with God: it works for you and that's great. But please don't pretend that 'the church' is this all accepting entity expressing unquestioning tolerance because we both know it's not now the case nor has it even been. Just look the holy wars and the inquisition. Q.E.D.


God and I... We don't see eye-to-eye on a lot of things.

Let's just say that we have agreed to disagree.


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Wendy me]

this thread is closed as we are not going anywere with this now...