Male Privilege

[CaptLex]

My support group was recently discussing "male privilege" and I'd like to get others' opinion on it here. This question is open to all members. Specifically, I'm interested in hearing whether you think it's real, a myth, important or irrelevant in your own lives, and whether it affects you in any way as a CD, TG, TS or GG (or even if you identify as none of these).

To start things off, and in case you're not sure what I'm asking about, here is the Wikipedia definition (edited):


Male privilege is a term used to describe the rights granted to the male population in society on the basis of their biological sex. The female, transsexual, transgender, and sometimes the gay male populations, are usually denied these rights, but females may have other rights not granted to males. For these purposes in cases alleging discrimination, "sex" is usually preferred as the determining factor rather than "gender" because it refers to biology rather than socially constructed norms which are more open to interpretation and dispute.
Here is the full link for anyone wanting to read more about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_privilege

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Transman Raven Kaldera had some thoughts on the issue (http://www.cauldronfarm.com/writing/feminist.html) (see #2 in his essay).

I've got some thoughts as well, but it's late, so they'll have to be for later.

[Lovely Rita]

Well I believe that in the case of clothing, which seems to be my obsession, ladies have the scale tipped in their favor. They have been able to dress in men's clothing since I can remember. I had to sneak around in my sisters nylons and hi heels knowing that it would just not be accepted. Happily today I have a wife who gets turned on by my fem side and so I am doing better.

[Kimberly]

I'll begin by stating the obvious...

This is an incredibly complex issue, with many avenues of discussion and many different viewpoints. I'm glad you want to hear from people regarding this matter, and this is just my view of world at this precise moment, on this precise day. Things change. Viewpoints change. As will mine, if you ask me again in a week's time. :o

I see male privilege quite openly in my environments. At school I saw it, in the street I saw it, in social occassions I have seen it.

As the article says, this is deeply rooted in our society, with women being different from men - complimentary, it says. The "sex" is primary to this. Start and finish. Women are needed, physiologically, to carry children -- and so are revered as such in traditional society. Foward thinking has propelled women into roles they would not have been in 50 years ago. A friend of mine is going to be a plasterer's labourer over the summer... £150 a day. I don't know a single male friend who will be earning that much over the summer. She is transcending expectation... or is she?

Within my group of friends she is "butch", "the bloke", "one of the guys..." She is famed for it. She knows about who I am and what I do, and so we joke to each other... sometimes calling each other "bloke" and "girly-boy"... It's a joke. But sometimes I wonder, is it?

On the one hand, we may be satirising our "roles"... other times I wonder whether we know we shouldn't be what we call each other... deep down we know we should be our perscribed "role." I'm talking about "sex", yet again. What we are, biologically -- that we cannot deny.

Men have the upper hand in this society because of many factors, but it begins and ends with "sex." Men are typically stronger, fitter, have better staminer, and therefore have FREEDOM. Women are the carers, the teachers, the family providers, and most of all - they give birth. When everything is broken down, we are here to have sex, and multiply. Men, can make a child and leave. They don't have to bare it for nine months... and that is shown in modern society still: single mothers. And so - due to this: men leaving -- everything else comes from this. The ability to sleep around, to be macho, to have better freedoms socially and physically. Society is therefore geared toward masculinity: business predominently.

I hate that. I want to transcend that. I should not have to be told at birth, even before, what role I play in life. Whether you carry our child, or I carry our child. I look at women, see their anatomy, and think - "WHY can I not have that? WHY am I being denied that? What MADE me this way?"

Transcendance. Something we can strive for - but something we can never accomplish.

[Deborah]

Male privilege oh yes it exists. There are men who thrive on it too probably.
I don't seem to have it though and that probably has something to do with the reason i'm here lol.

Like Kimberly says though...i'd find more joy in having the female anatomy and having children then being "privileged"

[Kimberly]

Like Kimberly says though...i'd find more joy in having the female anatomy and having children then being "privileged"
I suppose what I mean is the ability of choice. Maybe not choice...

The problem is words: they can mean lots of things. ;)

I don't want to be either male or female. The ability to share my being with both.

What strange, twisted, ideological BS...

Oh well. :evil:

[Jennaie]

I guess I don't seem to see a lot of "male privilege" in my life, and perhaps that is due to my lack of education, I don't know. Currently, I am going to school and will be out in 1 year resulting "hopefully", in a better job. I have applied for jobs in the past that I did not get because the company was actually looking to hire a minority or minority female, or just a female.

I certianly don't feel that I get better service anywhere just because I am male. I do think that females who are very attractive get treated better and get better jobs than myself or other females who are less attractive, but then, the better looking males have advantages over me with the females, I believe.

On a personal level, I treat everyone as I would want to be treated, regardless of sex, appearance, sexual orientation, or any other factors that somehow seem to cause people to treat them differently.

I am a people watcher in a big way, and it often astounds me how cruel and self centered people can be as adults. I often wonder why they still act like they are in elementary school.

[Holly]

Lex, thanks for asking this question. I find it facinating that, "the grass always seems greener on the other side." I think a lot of it has to do with perspective. If you define priviledge as responsibility for providing for your family, being drafted to fight in a war you don't believe in, having to surpress your feelings because, "men just don't do that," being expected to do the "grunt" jobs, accepting the mundane in clothing choices, etc., then I have indeed enjoyed male priviledge. I don't for a moment, believe by virtue of being born male that my life was priviledged in any way. On the other hand, my observation over the years has been that the female sex has been granted priviledges unavailable to me. Women are generally revered for their ability to produce babies. Women have a tendency to pamper themselves and take care of their bodies. They can color their hair without anyone raising an eyebrow (and their eyebrows are prettier than ours, too :happy: ). They can employ color and patterns and designs and texture in their wardrobe and be complimented for it. A guy will have his masculinity questioned if he tries to do the same.

What it all boils down to, I suppose, is if it is important to you and you can't have it, then it's a priviledge someone else has and you don't. I respect the FtM's here for their drive and desire to chase their dream and I hope the male priviledge for you is all you hope it to be. It's a bit of a disappointment for me, but, hey, I'm a MtF who dreams of what it would be like to be a girl and I'm sure the ideal of my dream would fall miserably short of the day-to-day reality of what being a woman is all about. Still, I would cherish the opportunity to experience the priviledge of being female.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Again, it's late, so I'll have to beg off for yet another day.

But the interesting paradox is that while male privilege definitely exists for men collectively, men individually often don't feel like they've got it. Peter Stearns' "Be A Man!: Males in Modern Society" gives a good run-down of the insecurities men have felt over the past two centuries.

[CaptLex]

Thanks to all who responded - and thanks for the link, Marlena. Raven Kaldera's essay was very revealing, and not just on this subject. From the responses so far I would say that "privilege" (male, female or otherwise) is in the eye of the beholder. Interesting that most of the respondees (is that a word?) are MtF (thanks for being the exception, Lex). I was hoping to get more feedback from FtMs and GGs as well. Oh well . . . :p

[Kieron Andrew]

male priviledges eh??? i think i must be one of those lucky guys!!!, it seems guys confide in me for all those really confidential things and girls also do too but in a way that they are so obviously treating me as a guy!, im welcome in the guys room where-ever i go! hmmm what other kinda priviledges do you want to know about??

[Julie Avery]

Back around 1977, when disco was all the rage, a friend (who was also a professor, and quite the radical) pointed out to me that I felt very free to interrupt women when we were having discussions. I, on the other hand, would have felt (and still feel) that a woman who interrupts me is being extremely rude.

I think this is an example of "male privelege."

[Kimberley]

I am going to take a more anecdotal approach to this if you dont mind.

I think it is all around us but I have to wonder if it isnt something (we men) just dont grab for ourselves?

I for one am introverted so I am often dismissed in conversation with men (at least when I am so inclined to engage them which is rare.) Perhaps it is my own perspective of 'men are such bores' that comes across.

I also get similar dismissal from many women, so in that regard I dont feel any priviledge. I believe most women (who dont know me) see someone who is not the stereotypical male so I am brushed off.

However, where there is a commonality I am usually treated with equality by either sex. There are exceptions to this but then I am usually the one to put an end to it because I am uncomfortable with the priviledge role. I hesitate to say this is a sex/gender thing. I prefer to think it is my own value system of unconditional equality combined with my personality.

Even growing up I always held this same value. So the girls saw me as "less" than the other boys and the boys often held the same opinion. So I dont think I ever really enjoyed the "priviledge" and to be honest, I dont think I particularly want it.

Hope this helps Cap'n.

Now a small question for Lex. I thought you were generally accepted at college by the guys. Do you ever get any sense of priviledge in their company? Just curious.

:hugs:
Kimberley.

[caffine]

the way i see it is that if you dont dress for the gender we are an outcast.i think that is wrong and society should except us as we are.
i deal with a lot of people evry day and there attitude sucks toward us.just be carefull on who you tell.

been there and it can be painfull------loseing friends and family.

[Scotty]

Men, can make a child and leave. They don't have to bare it for nine months... and that is shown in modern society still: single mothers. And so - due to this: men leaving -- everything else comes from this. The ability to sleep around, to be macho, to have better freedoms socially and physically. Society is therefore geared toward masculinity: business predominently.


Then you get into the child support issue and that freedom and macho-ism goes out the door, but sure the TIME is still free.......but emotions are not, money is not unless you work under the table to survive.

I could write the book on how to survive this, I should......I love writing and I'm good at it........

[Billijo49504]

Yes, men have many privledges that women don't have. Men can fart, belch and spit, and that ain't lady like.:happy: They can also tell someone to F%&*^& off, and get away with it. And when was the last time you saw a bunch of girls trying to piss their initials in the snow.
On the other hand, girls have a few thing that men don't have. They know if we are going to get any, before we get to the door....BJ

[sparro]

It's because society are a bunch of losers with boring lives....... maybe not.

Until just recently, things seems to be going really great for ladies. Abortions and rights and equal pay and all.

Recently, I was watching a rerun of my old favorite politics show (it's a satire of politics, anyway). There was a women giving a speach about how women have done a lot of changing over the past millenia, with equality and all that shaz. It's the men in the world that need to change because they've been the same this whole time. It's not REALLY true, but there deffinetly is truth to it. As much as I have a distaste for uber-feminism, really, women can't ever stop fighting, or they'll lose ground again.

As for crossdressers, transgendered and transexual people, well, that's a whole other ball game (like, hockey, or something, which is like, with a puck. CRAZY). Our inequality springs out of intolerance for difference, and generally gender role ideals. There's a stigma attached that doesn't even come with being homosexual. It's a whole different kind of deviance; showing dissatisfaction for your gender, or gender play, which always makes everyone nervous. You are a poser in your current state, and out of place with your anatomical sex. Really, I don't think it's comparable with female inequalities for that reason. I think trans people have their own set of needs, though, in a way, perhaps their own privileges. *shrug*

Wow, piece together my argument, I can't find my THESIS!

[Wren]

*sigh*

Geographically varied. Large city in North America a far cry form a lot of other places. But the fact that if anything is ever done well, like say an award winning script, I assume it's written by a male. It makes me question my upbringing by this society and my own moral fibre.

I would go on but it would end with me banging my fists against the table. I get to heated about the inequality in this little world of ours.

*Crying in the rain, in the darkness, on a cold day* Why can't we all just get along?

[Kimberley]

Sparro and Wren... a lot of pent up anger guys. There are ways to use that constructively.

Sparro... I am assuming you are a Canadian. I agree in part with your assessment of Citizen Stevie. What you are seeing is only the tip of the iceberg. If you really want a good look, dig into his past and particularly the National Citizens Coalition. Man, he is one scary dude. He makes Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal.

As to his "changes". These are human rights not just women's rights. To make some of these proposed changes would require changing the Charter and that isnt going to happen. The Supreme Court have already ruled and all he can do is invoke the notwithstanding clause. To do so would be political suicide and he knows it.

He has a hidden agenda but needs a majority to effect the changes he wants. We can only hope and work to prevent that. That is where you can use your anger constructively.

:hugs:
Kimberley.

[Wren]

Sparro and Wren... a lot of pent up anger guys. There are ways to use that constructively.

Yes, I do a lot of knitting. Manly ain't it.

Seriously though I'm just one of those passionate arguers. Even if I don't give a shaz about the subject. Maybe it's University doing funny things to my head. Besides apathy and indifference are the destruction of our society.

[sparro]

Sparro and Wren... a lot of pent up anger guys. There are ways to use that constructively.

Sparro... I am assuming you are a Canadian. I agree in part with your assessment of Citizen Stevie. What you are seeing is only the tip of the iceberg. If you really want a good look, dig into his past and particularly the National Citizens Coalition. Man, he is one scary dude. He makes Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal.


I was never actually angry while posting that. I usually do just get pretty passionate, as Wren does, when I'm arguing a point.

I know quite a bit about our.. no, I refuse to believe he is a leader of any sort. I'm a political science major. x_x

[privateperks]

Just from what I've seen in my own life - I'm not sure that it's "male privilege" so much as the "ole boys club," but in academia a woman is still often seen as a bit of a curiosity. Something along the order of a performing/talking dog really and expected to fetch the copies and coffee. And in stand up comedy, a man has the advantage imo because women are just not considered funny everywhere and not expected to talk about some things in public. And don't even get me started on the construction industry.