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VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 06:18 PM

It's way past time the CD community stood up and took responsibility for it's own acceptance. Not just piddly little university outreach here and there I'm talking major shit here.

I'm talking not hiding in the closets any more, whether personal ones, or larger ones.

I'm talking about not hiding from the SO's. It's frickin 2006 people and we've known for decades that hding is bad, but some of us still keep on doing it.

I'm talking about having enough pride to buy your makeup in the drugstores/chemist/M&S/Wal-Mart/Target/department stores like anyone else rather than paying a premium for overpriced stuff from some CD boutique. Same goes for clothing.

I'm talking about not making excuses while shopping or when someone asks why you shave your legs. No "it's for the wifey" no fake little shopping lists, no "I'm a bike rider"

I'm talking about being out in broad daylight rather than walking to the mailbox at midnight or just driving en femme without actually getting out of the car.

I'm talking about standing up against bigotry and standing up for yourself. If a group you're in is anti-TG, then for goddess sake quit and tell them why. If someone says a nasty slur, call them on it. If something gets printed in your local paper, write a rebuttal.

No ones going to hand you acceptance on a silver platter, you have to fight for it, work for it.

"But where I live (Texas/Arkansas/Rural Scotland) is full of rednecks and hooligans, Veronica"

Pooh on that, do something to change it. Stand together with likeminded people against them. Form alliances, speak out, embarass them, do whatever it takes to let them know that you will not tolerate bigotry. And no they won't beat you with a stick, that's hyperbole.

If there's not a group near you, form one. I'm trying to do that myself, it's hard, yes, but we have to do it.

And finally if someone asks you if you're a CD/TG, answer them simply and truthfully.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.
Yep, that's my name, it's pronounced Ron-duhl not Ron-dell.

tvgirl4fun

06-10-2006, 06:25 PM

I've always said the best type of advocacy you can do is to go somewhere "dressed". And I mean, the regular (non LGBT) places and events, where you get to intermingle with the general public. Jaie

~Kitty GG~

06-10-2006, 06:38 PM

Yesssssssssssss

That's what I've been saying!

When Blacks fought for their rights it wasn't only the ones in Washington and way up North where the climate was more Black friendly (as if there was anywhere friendly for them then..) If they'd have used the excuses I've heard here.. They'd still be in segregated schools and only the janitors in office buildings.

When people see the first few CDs or meet the first few TSs out and about they will probably stare. They will probably giggle. But that'll get old fast. If you see a couple a day its no longer a novelty. Its normal. And everyone is much too self-involved to really care what you're wearing once you're no longer a novelty.

Wouldn't be nice if SOs and children just thought it was normal?

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

Sarah Rabbit

06-10-2006, 06:39 PM

Christina Nicole

06-10-2006, 06:41 PM

Go ahead. Some have much to gain and little to lose. Some have little to gain and much to lose. Falling in the latter category, I wish you well. Good luck!

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

Toyah

06-10-2006, 07:32 PM

Go ahead. Some have much to gain and little to lose. Some have little to gain and much to lose. Falling in the latter category, I wish you well. Good luck!

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

With you all the way on this Christina Nicole.
I really dont get the we must make a stand thing, OK if you are TS you have a very fair point but if you are a guy in a dress it really is not a lifestyle thing its just a bit of fun and if it isnt then WTF you doing it for.
Its fun enjoy it but dont get carried away that everyone will say yes OK thats OK because they wont.
Take care where you go dont be confrontational, and if you are happy at home stay there its safe and not upsetting anyone

Joy Carter

06-10-2006, 07:43 PM

VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 08:05 PM

VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 08:07 PM

Unfortunately arrogance is running rife in the community. My family knows about Sarah and that was a big step. You lead the charge Veronica and I'll be right behind you (Ducking the tomatoes):D

Sarah R. :bunny:

No, don't wait for a leader, become one in yourself. Because leaders can't be everywhere and sometimes one must stand on their own.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

Karren H

06-10-2006, 08:20 PM

I guess if I was only thinking of myself I'd do exactually that. But guess what? I have a family that counts on me to provide for them! And I love them more than life it self. So by being selfish I could destroy the lives of my wife and kids? I think not! Family first and Karren is secondary !! So I wish you well in your idealistsic dream that your going to force everyone of accept your lifestyle!!

And BTW. I buy all my fem things locally and don't make excuses for my purchases, trying heels on while wearing a business suit, holding dresses up to check for length, trying on dress and skirt at lunch, plus shopping enfemme! But I don't see that as a big deal anyway. Its what I like to do!! And when I'm out enfemme and get read I could care less what other people think! I have the right to wear what I want. But I draw the line if it were to impact my famiyl!!

Love Karren

VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 08:28 PM

VeronicaMoonlit,
What's with you and militancy?

You call this militancy? This is nothing. This is small beans compared to what other discriminated against people have done.

Do you ever smile and enjoy?

Yes, but sometimes action is needed.

"I'm talking about not hiding from the SO's. It's frickin 2006 people and we've known for decades that hding is bad, but some of us still keep on doing it." Do you have an SO? If so, have you made your stand?

Nope I'm single, but for damned sure I'm not going marry some socially conservative woman in hopes that living with her would cure me and then tell her after 30 years of marriage and then whine about how she's not accepting.

Any woman that I'll date will know by the third date. I can't hide the long hair, the earrings, the shaved body hair, the women's wristwach.

I did tell my mother, father and sister......14 years ago. I told my best friend and his wife about 5 years ago. I told my hair dresser. I've told many a shopgirl. and if anyone directly asks, I'll tell them too.

Girl, if you want to be the Susan B. Anthony of crossdressing, I say go for it!

There already was a Susan B Anthony, depending on who you ask it's either Magnus Hirshfield or Virginia Prince.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 08:32 PM

With you all the way on this Christina Nicole.
I really dont get the we must make a stand thing, OK if you are TS you have a very fair point but if you are a guy in a dress it really is not a lifestyle thing its just a bit of fun and if it isnt then WTF you doing it for.

Peter Oiler. Google it.

Do you want to be fired for CDing at home? No? Then don't you want laws protecting your civil rights? Yes? Then you've got to fight for them. Now you may be thinking, "I'll just stay very deep in my closet, no one will know."

Is that good for your mental health to do that?
Is that good for CD's as a whole to do that?

Take care where you go dont be confrontational, and if you are happy at home stay there its safe and not upsetting anyone

That's the problem with the past generations of CD's concentrating on being safe in their closets. Don't you want things to be better? Don't you want the next generation to have it easier than we did? Something has to be done.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 08:34 PM

The only bad part of a movement is that there will be bodies lying in a row, having been outed at work and having to retire early was not in my financial planning I fine but will have to stay in the work force longer that I would have. I'm willing to do what I can but not at the price of loosing.
0.02

So? Why aren't you fighting for legal protections in the workplace for TG/CD people. With those you wouldn't have to worry about your livelyhood.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

JMO2

06-10-2006, 08:40 PM

OK, lets think about this logically,
1. Tomorrow I will wake up and put on whatever I want.
1. My SO all but sends me to the lions.....
2. I go out and go into a local store.
2. Being in a small town they think I have gone insane and the guys in the store want to kill me.
3. I decide to go to work dressed.
3. I am fired from my job and all but put out on the street.
Now, I am a closet crossdresser and do not intend to even think about some of the items mentioned. Good in theory but in real life....give me a break.......:tongueout

(I do not mean to put anyone down just stating my opinion, sorry if I have offended anyone)

VeronicaMoonlit

06-10-2006, 08:41 PM

I guess if I was only thinking of myself I'd do exactually that. But guess what? I have a family that counts on me to provide for them! And I love them more than life it self. So by being selfish I could destroy the lives of my wife and kids? I think not! Family first and Karren is secondary !! So I wish you well in your idealistsic dream that your going to force everyone of accept your lifestyle!!

Excuse me, but aren't you the Karen Hutton who crossdresses at work in the bathroom? Are you thinking about your wife and kids when you do that? Aren't you the one that went from clear mascara to brown at work? The one whom it seems wants to get caught at work?

It's not my lifestyle, it's who I am, it's who you are too.

But I draw the line if it were to impact my famiyl!!

yes, but if there were laws protecting TG/CD folk then you wouldn't have to worry would you? So why don't you fight for such laws.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

maid phylis

06-10-2006, 08:43 PM

Christina Nicole

06-11-2006, 02:26 PM

I really dont get the we must make a stand thing, OK if you are TS you have a very fair point but if you are a guy in a dress it really is not a lifestyle thing its just a bit of fun and if it isnt then WTF you doing it for.

Well, that depends. Two TS sisters I know well. One is entirely passable, the other is totally non-passable as women. The first is married, raising her adopted children and other than her immediate family, no one knows her past. The other one is out as a TS and an advocate. I know a lot of "stealth" TSs. Once they transistion, no one knows and they don't say anything. Life for them, is much easier that way. They just want to be women, they don't want to be warrior women.

What is more important than your freedom and dignity as a human being?

Exactly my point. Being TG ranks pretty far down the list for me. Husband, etc are far more important. Earning a good living to support my family well is more important. Freedom and dignity are measured and gauged differently by each and every person. Being labeled as a "crossdresser" while "fighting for my rights" would not enhance my freedom or dignity. What it would do is exactly the opposite. It would restrict my freedom, wear down my dignity, decrease my earnings, and erode the respect I've worked long and hard to earn from my peers and clients (no to mention friends, family, and neighbors.) There would be little gains in compensation in return. I have no interest in running around as a guy in a dress.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

kaitlin

06-11-2006, 02:46 PM

Hello, I have read this (these) posts and I agree and disagree. I would love to be able to dress and act the way my heart desires anywhere and at any time but...I can remember a time when I would have joined in kicking a gay or crossdressed person. Now I am happy to say I am above that and I AM A CD! I also have many gay and TG/CD friends and love them all. But I also know that the stories of bodys being found on the side of the road and people who just become "missing" are true and no matter how much you push, someone will there to push back! Times will change and we will just have to enjoy what we have and let things take there natural course. Kaitlin

~Dee~

06-11-2006, 02:57 PM

I think its a good idea and you obviously have a lot of conviction driving you.

Personally i dont quite get the people who seem to think you need some kind of reality check ...
afterall .. how could you possibly think that the world would accept you .. why, you'd be fired from your job, kicked out of house and tossed to the curb.

but ... umm, you do know that there are people who are currently living this life?
i mean .. im not fulltime yet .. but everyone in my world knows about me and ive not been tossed to the curb ..
i have a wonderful marriage .. my whole school (students, teachers and office workers) are rooting for me and ask for reports each time i see them .. i do dress when i go to work, and nobody has ever said anything bad in the slightest.

so ... before conclussions are jumped to .. i think its worth remembering that there are lots of people who are living this life with pride and im pretty sure they are happy with it.
i know i am..

ill be there in that picket line :happy: so count me in.

Sophia Rearen

06-11-2006, 03:10 PM

Wow, good debate you've started, Veronica. Thank you. The times, they are a changing. Can we not see it, because we are so close to it? Veronica is pushing for overdrive. Nothing wrong with that. Karren, may be in forth gear. Nothing wrong with that. The closet crossdresser is in first. Again, nothing wrong. I, myself, may be in fourth and about to shift to fifth. The rest of us fall somewhere between first and fifth. The important thing is, we don't find reverse.

Marla S

06-11-2006, 03:24 PM

What is more important than your freedom and dignity as a human being?
Freedom and dignity. And I'd like to add peace, health, family and friends.
It is a pity that these things often don't fit together.

You call this militancy? This is nothing. This is small beans compared to what other discriminated against people have done. ... and still do. It is a legend, that racism has died out; it's a legend that homosexuality is widly accepted. Maybe it is not PC anymore to be intolerant in some countries (areas, districts), but the vast majority of the people still is.

Only because you have a black secretary of state doesn't mean that blacks, whites and other etnic groups are treated equalliy ... you should know.

So, a CD-revolution is a romantic dream IMHO, as it is a dream that all homosexuals would stand up against intolerance (a minority does).

Go the slow way and the one that is approriate for you.
A little bit more boldness couldn't harm, though.

Kate Simmons

06-11-2006, 03:33 PM

I understand what you are saying Veronica and agree with you. There is just one problem here--people. I was a member of Renaissance but left after a few years as they were moving too slow for me. Most of them are content with having "tea parties", talking about wigs and makeup going to Southern Comfort and the whole "nine yards". A big thing where I'm from is the Pride Parade in Allentown PA coming up this month. Getting them to agree on something in principle is one thing, getting them to follow through is something entirely different. My home was open all Winter for any girls who wanted to visit, I got a total of 3 maybe. You have to realize that most people are dedicated to their familiy and when things come up, fail to that. I can't blame them really, frustration of not being able to be your femme self notwithstanding. I, like yourself , attempted to start a local group but the interest and committment just wasn't there. I really can't fault people for that as most are closeted anyway, I have to respect that in others, as I myself was basically closeted for 54 years. In my dotage(!), I finally got some gonads to just be myself but have learned rather sadly perhaps, I have to "fly" or "fall" on my own. What you say is attractive but really seemingly unattainable to most and a "dream" at best. I, personally, don't care what people think of me as I have to be myself. I do care about my family, however, and have to care about their feelings somewhat whether I like it or not. That doesn't mean I'm going back to the closet, no way! What is does mean is that I take things a day at a time. I've earned whatever freedom of expression I have as Ericka by myself. I paid for it with my sweat and tears and cherish it. From my perspective however, it seems to be an up hill battle and if you don't take the "bull by the horns" youself, no one is going to do it for you. I've learned the value of putting forth an effort but the committment needs to be put forth by each one individually, otherwise your triumph has no meaning and you are riding on the coattails of someone else's accomplishments. I'm really hoping things will turn around for the TG community and time will tell. Until that time, we have to make or break it on our own more or less. I love all my brothers and sisters on the forum here regardless. It makes things a little easier to "swallow" when you can talk to friends about things. Take care, Ericka

Ms. Donna

06-11-2006, 03:56 PM

I think that people are not getting the bigger picture here.

This is not about rights for crossdressers - nor is it about rights for the Transgendered.

This is about the right for anyone to be who they are without the fear of persecution and ridicule. This is about the right to not be told who we are by those other than ourselves.

If you don't want to be out, then don't. But do not oppose those who are and want to be recognised for who we are, and not who others thing we should be.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Maria D

06-11-2006, 04:06 PM

It's not really the bad things that hold people back, it's the fear of the bad things. You can't be sure you'll lose your job, your wife and kids, your friends, and then be tied to a tree upside down and taunted with ice cream, can you? But the fear that it might happen stops enough people to keep CDs a visible minority. WE know there are trillions of CDs, and a CD army could take the world if it chose, but most people never see a CD in their life. How can the invisible want rights or to be accepted?

I'm no warrior princess, it was 25 years before I got the courage to tell even one person, let alone a website like this. But since then, as I've discovered that the world doesn't hate me, it got easier. I am quite happy being a visible TS, not just to further the cause and stuff, but because it suits me as a person to keep my history.
The point is though, that I project an awareness field to the people who know me; hundreds of people, literally, who'd never seen a TG person before, have now done so, and been made aware that they are not freaks but normal people. It's a small field, but the more people who are made aware of the issue, the better.
I'm not afraid anymore, that's the thing. That doesn't mean that there's nothing to be afraid of, I know of a council worker who was fired last year for being CD, using another reason for the sacking, but the point is you have to fight this, with every last drop of blood, if you want the future to be better. If you are happy with your lot and wish Veronica to shut up, fair enuogh. There were probably plenty of black people who wanted Marten Luther King to shut up and stop rocking the boat. That's fair enough; it just means that they'd give to their children what they suffered. MLK gave them something better.

Just my thoughts anyway :)

Marla S

06-11-2006, 04:06 PM

Ms. Donna

06-11-2006, 04:29 PM

This is about the right for anyone to be who they are without the fear of persecution and ridicule. This is about the right to not be told who we are by those other than ourselves.
Broadly speaking, this right is an illusion.

There are islands of acceptance which you can try to expand.

It's not an illusion, it's a goal. And I'm under no assumption that it is an easily attainable goal or even one I will get to see achieved. However, it should not deter us from striving to reach that goal - to lay the foundation so that one day it can be attained.

This, to me, is a far better course of action than selfishly sitting back and letting it be someone else's problem. Issues which effect one group of people effect all people at some point.

It's time to be the hammer, for we have been the anvil for far too long...

It's not really the bad things that hold people back, it's the fear of the bad things.
. . .
Just my thoughts anyway :)

:iagree: 100% :thumbsup:

Love & Stuff,
Donna

tgnikki

06-11-2006, 04:55 PM

Hello Sisters..I with Ericka on this one..I will not not go back in the closet..I have kept Nikki in the closet too long..It cost me my marriage, however, my children have come to know Nikki very well..My children love Nikki, and they have accepted her with love and understanding..Yes, it is a world that most people do not understand, however, we need to work together and educated the world on Transgender issues..I love being a girl and look forward to the day when I can be free of the hate toward us girls..Take care and live for each day that you have..

Love, Nikki

Bernice

06-11-2006, 10:08 PM

It's not really the bad things that hold people back, it's the fear of the bad things. You can't be sure you'll lose your job, your wife and kids, your friends, and then be tied to a tree upside down and taunted with ice cream, can you? But the fear that it might happen stops enough people to keep CDs a visible minority.
:iagree:

I also agree wholeheartedly with VeronicaMoonlit, and admire her courage, however, I lack that same courage myself. I'd rather be her heavily-armed escort in drab, than risk everything myself. That's how much I fear the expected hostility. May I please have an M16 for EACH hand, and some effective Kevlar underwear and helmet?

None of that changes the fact that VeronicaMoonlit may well become our emancipator. I certainly hope so. She should not have to do this alone.

There is some increased level of safety in numbers, and her points are all well considered (and expressed). Still, too many of us are isolated wimps. I wish we could learn to trust each other enough to share personal information more readily, and to organize a mass movement. I wish we were more inclined to answer VeronicaMoonlit's magnificent call to action, and give her enough support to make this happen.

Wishing won't make it happen.

Veronica, I salute you! I nominate you for wing commander, or commander in chief, or whatever! But before I enlist for active duty, can you first teach me how you come by all this courage?

VeronicaMoonlit

06-12-2006, 02:13 AM

Interesting responses truly from all.

I'm not anyone special, or brave or courageous. I feel scared, afraid, lonely and in doubt at times. I cry many times I'm no mighty leader or warrior princess forged in the heat of battle. I am just one person, muddling my way through my life as best I can.

But I do want to make things better. I want the next generation of t-folk to have it better than I did. In fact I want the ones alive today to have it better each and every year. I try to do what I can. There's things I have done, things I haven't done and things I should do. I understand fear, in some ways I'm a coward. I often do not know what to do or where I'm going, but I know something needs to be done.

My call to action wasn't just a call for marches and parades, though they have their place, it was more a call for lots of little things to be done. Little things add up to big things, like a snowball rolling down a hill. We need to be more out, more open, more vocal. Use our voices, make them heard. To have pride in who we are. To work alone as best we can and work together too. inaction and apathy are our foes, but even the smallest action is valuable.

And yes, some things are very scary, but sometimes we have to do scary things and fight our fear. I am no Emancipator, but I will try to participate in some small way in our emancipation as a group.

"Once more into the breach...."

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.
--
I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,
Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:
Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'

William Shakespeare, Henry V Act 3, Scene 1

stephanie100

06-12-2006, 02:51 AM

GO Veronica but as i have said before this has to be world wide not just USA/UK
PM me girl lets talk
Steph

jenni_xx

06-12-2006, 03:08 AM

I admire you for expressing what you have in this thread Veronica. I strongly agree with your reasons for doing so. I myself posted a comment on this board a few days ago that in essence said the same thing. I do believe that if all crossdressers were strong, courageous enough to be out in the open, then this would (eventually) have a diluting affect upon society in general. If every 10th man is a crossdresser (like we are lead to believe), then seeing one out of every 10 men in public in feminine attire would (I believe) lead to people in general becoming exposed to crossdressing which would naturally lead to a greater interest, understanding, and acceptance of crossdressing as a whole.

Having said this, I did find your posts quite aggressive, and the stance that you are taking to be quite confrontational. Taking such a confrontational, aggressive stance would, in my opinion, be a mistake. I don't regard us crossdressers as aggressive people, and thus taking this stand would ascribe this very connotation to crossdressers in general, which is surely a bad thing. On the other hand, I greatly admire Eddie Izzard for example, who laces (expuse the pun) his crossdressing and his overall demeaner with comedy, and as we all know, getting people to laugh is one sure fire way of getting those people to like them.

I do believe that slowly and surely society is becomming more and more acceptable in nature as time goes on. For this reason, I remain a tad perplexed by your comment of wanting the next generation of t-folk to have it better than I did. Trust me, this will happen anyway, just as you have had it better than the t-folk who went before you.

I have had the courage to come out to my girlfriend, who has been absolutely fantastic and responded in a way I could have only ever dreamed of. But I have not, nor do not possess, the courage to come out to other friends, at work, or towards my family (at least, not yet anyway). My father is an older generation than I, and thus holds many old-fashioned values. Regarding work, in all honesty, while there is no reason for me not to tell my work-colleagues about my crossdressing (I don't think I would lose my job over it), equally there is no reason for me to tell them either. And only yesterday, while sitting outside a bar, enjoying a few drinks and some food, one of my female friends pointed out a "girl" who looked like a man, which naturally lead to a conversation about "those tranny-whatever-they-are-called-type people" which wasn't exactly positive in nature. My girlfriend, who was sat next to me, firmly grasped my leg - an unspoken sign of reassurance between the two of us ensued (which I greatly appreciated) - but neither of us said a word that in any way contradicted with the negativity that was spewing forth from the lips of the people with whom I was surrounded. Does that make me a hypocrit? Am I weak for not standing up for who I am? Yes I, probably am. But that is the nature of the beast I'm afraid. I am a sensitive person, I am feminine in my outlook, which therefore means that I am naturally passive, and these are qualities which I believe the majority of cross-dressers share. They are in and of themselves good qualities, and they are qualities that you, Veronica, are asking us to cast aside in your call to get us to stand up and fight. In other words, while I do share in your ideological quest for acceptance, I am not prepared to deny the traits that make up who I actually am in order to gain this acceptance. For some reason, a radical, extremist tag which would be ascribed to such a stand-up-and-fight attitute just doesn't sit well with who we are or what we represent. I guess what I am saying is that we need to find another way in our goal for acceptance...

Sandra

06-12-2006, 10:47 AM

I've always said the best type of advocacy you can do is to go somewhere "dressed". And I mean, the regular (non LGBT) places and events, where you get to intermingle with the general public. Jaie

Great answer.

Veronica, my SO has done most of what you have said in your thread, she is 24/7 CD not TS and is out there in the public, if more girls did this then "joe public" would accept more and see that you are normal .

Melanie R

06-12-2006, 12:33 PM

Veronica,

I am with you all the way. Peggy and I will be seen nationally in September on WE as the advocates for our community. The public will see Melanie at home and out in public. All of the suggestions provided by members of this board recently were addressed in the script of this documentary. Yes, we will face repercusions in our community. We will lose friends and family members but so be it. There may even be threats to our lives as has happened before. Hopefully we will also educate many. Melanie as well as many other members of our community will walk with our TG float for the 14th year in the Houston Pride Parade on July 24th. A TG , Phyllis Frye, this year is the Grand Marshall of the parade - a first in the US - and yes, we are in redneck country but proud of who we are. Last week one of our community who is a police sargeant came out to the Houston Police Dept. that he was having SRS and would be beginning the real life test as Julia in the next two weeks. The Houston Police Dept. is standing behind Julia all the way but the comments on all the local radio talk shows show how ignorent the public is. Our Houston TG community is standing behind Julia all the way.

Hugs,

Melanie

EricaCD

06-12-2006, 02:39 PM

Hi! First let me say I salute the girls here who have resolved to bring about an increased degree of acceptance for the CD/TS/TG community. I wish you all well in your endeavors, but I will not be joining you by outing myself fully and insisting that society take note.

First things first: In this matter I make an enormous distinction between a garden variety crossdresser (such as myself) and a TS/TG/fulltime CD. I understand perfectly that in the case of truly transgendered individuals, the right to determine your own gender identity should be an imperative. For such individuals I can see the parallels to the civil rights movement. Not necessarily so for "ordinary" crossdressers. As Erica my choice of attire and appearance is, of course, limited by social norms with which I do not agree, but for me this is not tantamount to society denying me a fundamental right!

Therefore, when I look at the risk/reward balance of insisting on social acceptance of my fem side, well to put it simply this is not the fight for me. Sorry to not be able to be of more overt assistance, and I trust that my occasional forays out and limited exposure to the non-CD world will help advance the cause of acceptance in a modest way.

A final word of suggestion: Our more activist friends might want to think through the implications of creating a "you're-with-us-or-against-us" mindset in relating to those of us who do not intend to leave our closeted existence behind. This thread began to develop a nasty tilt in that direction for a little while. The fact that we do not share your sense of urgency in bringing about social change, and may therefore not be prepared to risk jobs, marriages, family relationships and friendships, does not mean that we are cowards.

Final note: I for one absolutely do NOT believe that a cd, by virtue of remaining in the closet, hinders the advancement of social acceptance of crossdressers. By way of example, all of us here draw comfort, self-confidence and inspiration from this forum, which is largely comprised of closeted CDs!

I was going to say "Just my $0.02" but this turned out so long I'm gonna make it "$0.03". Or does the price go down the longer it gets - I can never remember....

Erica

Sophia Rearen

06-12-2006, 02:50 PM

Well said Erica. In essence, why would a cd, who is content with 10% of the time being "her" want to risk 100% of "his" life? Makes sense. However, there are other girls, and I'm not exactly sure how many, so I'll be careful with words, that are wanting and desiring to be more than a closet CD. So, Veronica is offering words of inspiration that may help some.

~Dee~

06-12-2006, 02:58 PM

i dont think that there is anything eternally wrong with being closeted .. the only time that i dont like that kind of situation is when its hurting someone at the same time.
if you are happy and joyful being in the closet, i dont see any problem with that in the slightest. just be careful of the splinters. :happy:

if people do want to go out and about and they want acceptance then the truth of the matter is that something needs to be done about that.
i think that the best way to have that happen is to get out there are educate people .. i dont think people need to preach and wave their arms around on the street ... just getting out there and meeting people and having them understand a little more once you leave, its all a step forward.

its not like its going to change in a week or two .. but i do think that the attitude will slowly change.

midwest GG

06-12-2006, 03:19 PM

Well Veronica, as a SO of a CDer, I am ok with his CDing. However, we did talk about it, and there is no way that we want our children to be affected by her dressing in any way, shape, or form. If that means that he has to hide it forever, so be it. Our first concern is our children's happiness and thier wellbeing with piers. Someday is along time away, but, someday they can know, just not at the ages of 8, 5, and 4 years old. That is not fair to them. My SO also doesn't want anyone else to know. Maybe he is a hypocrit, but, we just worry about us, and not anyone else. Most times, if you try to push your views on someone else, it just comes back to bite you in the butt later. There is always going to be discrimination, no matter how hard the world trys to fight it. Gays have been trying to change outlook of the community for many many years, and there are still millions of people out in teh world who don't want to know, or see it. That is their own opinion. I think it is great for CDers to go out into public feeling comfortable with themselves, but in a high class town of 1200 people, that will never happen, at least in my lifetime. That's ok though. Part of the excitement is hiding it anyway! I love having our "closet" relationship that no one in the world knows about!
I am not trying to affend anyone, just telling you our view, that's it!

Ms. Donna

06-12-2006, 07:09 PM

Based on my personal experiences, Dawn's comments are fairly representative of the general attitudes I've encountered with regards to this topic. Given this, I'll reply to her posts, but my answers are not directed specifically to her. My answers are towards the general attitudes expressed therein.

What's with you and militancy? Do you ever smile and enjoy? Just chill girl and don't get your panties in a wad.
Why is wanting to make a difference and fighting for what is right always characterized as militancy? Why are people willing to speak up and support an issue characterized as militant?

Our panties are 'in a wad' because we are tired of being marginalized. We're tired of being told who we should be and how we should be it.

You say 'just chill'... Why? What will change/improve by sitting back and doing nothing?

I've learned a lot here about what others have to address in their lives. I'll admit at first I was kinda of intolerant because my life is different than many here, but I've learned and mellowed.
Which means what? How is your life that different? Are you somehow immune or insulated from the intolerance of society? And what have you learned that has allowed you to 'mellow'?

My life is 'different' as well from many here. I don't 'dress up' or try to pass as a girl. I identify as Genderqueer and don't consider myself as either a man or woman. I do crossdress insofar as I wear almost exclusively woman's clothing, but my presentation is more androgenous than feminine. I get looks and overhear the odd "What's that - a guy or a girl?" comment from people. I'm this way every day: home, work, whatever - not an hour here or there. This is my life all the time.

(Sorry, but this one is specifically for Dawn: about what were you intolerant?) The only intolerance I have is for intolerance itself.

Do you have an SO? If so, have you made your stand?
I'll be married for 19 years this year (known my wife for 23 years) and have two daughters.

Have I made my stand? As I said, I'm me all the time. At home, at work, at school with the kids, out with friends. Has it been / is it easy? No, but then nothing of value ever is. My wife vacillates between acceptance / tolerance / anger and probably a bunch of other feelings for which we don't even have words. She gets that this is who I am and it's not going to go away. It's not perfect and at times it seems downright dysfunctional, but we make this work because we care for each other. My girls accept me for me and know that I'm not like all the other daddys.

Have I made my stand? I am 'out' at work - more by action than word. As far as I can tell, I'm the only openly 'Trans' person in our building - possibly the firm. I spoke with our HR dept and expressed my desire to follow the woman's dress code - business casual sans the skirt or dress (just not my thing). Their response was positive and so I do this with the support of my employer: a large NY based investment bank with offices worldwide. I didn't just 'show up in a dress', I did things from within the system and as a result, I make it easier for the next person to do so.

Have I made my stand? I am 'out' by word to many people in my life, several coworkers know my deal, as do my parents, some close friends and other individuals with whom I interact (hair stylist, salesgirls, etc.) If asked respectfully, I'll take the time to explain it to people who ask about me. Ignorant dolts, however, are politely invited to crawl off and fornicate with themselves. I'll not waste my time with people who haven't the capacity to learn.

Have I made my stand? Every day, people get to see - through me - that the lines between 'man' and 'woman' are not as neat and clean as they might like to believe. They get to see that we are not just the crazy trannies on the Jerry Springer show. They get to see and know that we are people with lives, jobs, families, hopes and aspirations - just like them.

Have I made my stand? I'd like to think I've at least taken a few steps in that direction.

Et tu?

Well,Veronica, you take the fight to the people. I support you marching right up to WalMart and Target and demanding your constitutional right to buy makeup.
NO MASCARA NO PEACE!
This is flat out patronizing (no surprise) and very typical. Sit back, chill and mellow all you would like. If this isn't something you deem as important, than continue doing exactly what you are doing. But do not make a mockery of someone elses convictions.

It wasn't until the gays got sick and tired of the crap that they were able to effect a change. Homosexuality used to be classified in the DSM as a mental disorder. ECT was considered an 'accepted' treatment for this 'disorder' in the misguided attempt to 'cure' them. Eventually, they organized themselves and started to raise public awareness about who and what they were. It became clear that these were not 'sick' people and that when given half a chance, they functioned as well as anyone else in society. So well, in fact, that homosexuality was removed from the DSM completely. To be homosexual no longer meant one was sick.

Had they sat back and chilled - remained silent and done nothing - homosexuality would still be a mental illness and the rights which they now have would have never been realized. Is their 'fight' over, not in the least - but they have made a very real and significant change to society.

Why are we worthy of less? Gender Identity Disorder is recognized as a mental disorder in the DSM-IV. Transvestic Fetishism (crossdressing) is classified as a paraphlia - a sexual deviation. Why are we content with this - to be seen as 'sick'?

We are fodder for the sensationalized daytime television 'talk' shows. Nighttime television usually portrays us negatively - typically as psychopaths of some sort. Ditto for Hollywood. Rare is the show where we are represented with respect and dignity.

And it is not just the transgendered who 'suffer' due to the oppressive gender system. Boys who are not the traditional 'rough and tumble' type become socially ostracized as 'sissys' and 'faggots'. Girls fair no better with impossible feminine standards as the norm and a system of enforcement where non-conformers become social pariahs. And bog help them if they actually are Transgender as it will take most a good 30+ years before they can admit to themselves who they are.

Again, why are we content to be marginalized?

Moreover, why are we content to allow anyone to be marginalized?

As I said in another post, it is not specifically about crossdressers or the transgendered. Almost everyone has felt the negative effects of the oppressive gender system at some point in their lives. Maybe we simply experience it to a larger degree, but the rigidity of the current socially defined gender roles is an issue that effects everyone.

Nobody is saying that you have to walk around and carry a banner - there are others who will do that. But at least stop hiding all the time. You don't have to come out to the world, but just try being honest about yourself - even if it's a little bit. The salesgirls do not care if the clothes or makeup are for you or not. So they know you wear panties? Big deal... What difference does it make? Do you think they're posting a news-flash somewhere? Do you really think you're the first to come in there to shop? Do you think you'll be the last?

Being out and about - doing your day-to-day life - can be enough to make a difference. It shows people that we exist, that we lead regular lives. It helps to challenge the assumptions and misconceptions that society has regarding 'gender variant' individuals.

Look, I completely get the POV of the CD-only contingent and I support your decisions with regards to what is right for you. But do realize that for those of us who in some way live this every day, to sit back and do nothing is simply not an option. We constantly butt up against this - it is a part of out daily lives. And like any group facing marginalization and intolerance, there comes a point when one can no longer continue to just 'take it'.

I agree with Erica vis fostering a "you're-with-us-or-against-us" mindset. We all need to do what is right for us. If not taking action - no matter how small that action might be - is right for you, great; but do not patronize and mock those of us who want to effect a change.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Butterfly Bill

06-12-2006, 07:21 PM

I go out every day and try to make it so everybody I interact with has a positive experience with a man in a dress. And keep doing it every day, one person at a time, and every day I have more and more people smiling at me and greeting me when they recognize me. That's my basic method for bringing about change.

tekla west

06-13-2006, 01:18 AM

I too once upon a time thought that for TGs the rights were critical, and for CDs less so. But my political work has taught me that the rights of one are the rights of all. To stop one is to stop all.

I'm done with the closet, whatever it cost me to get out was - and this is the WORST part - a price simply defered. Sooner or later. It all comes out in the wash girls, and we all know that.

Freedom might not be free, but the price is sure as heck far less than opression, slavery, and lying. Not only to ourselves, but to everyone we are around also. Everyone you LIE to is paying a price also. So think of them again.

your pal, tekla

Marlena Dahlstrom

06-13-2006, 02:51 AM

There are lots of things you can do without having to be out of the closet, or even venturing out of the house (although I heartly agree with what both Veronica and Ms. Donna have said).

You can write to your local politicians -- even if you use a pseudonym, you still vote -- and they know that every one who writes them represents a significant number who don't.

You can write other people as well. When I see an insensitive or uninformed article in the press, I write the reporter (and their editor), explain why I thought the article was problematic and point them toward the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association's excellent supplemental styleguide on LGBT issues (http://www.nlgja.org/pubs/style_english.html). When I see an article that was sensitive and well-done, I write the reporter (and their editor) to offer my appreciation. When I go out shopping, I always make a point of writing the store's management to let them know how I was treated (so far only good).

Just remember it's as important give praise when we're treated well as it is to complain when we're treated ill.

Unless we're willing to put some effort in ourselves, we're going to be waiting a long time to for others to let us out of the closet. And after all if we're out of the closet, there's a lot more room for clothes. ;)

Most times, if you try to push your views on someone else, it just comes back to bite you in the butt later. There is always going to be discrimination, no matter how hard the world trys to fight it. Gays have been trying to change outlook of the community for many many years, and there are still millions of people out in teh world who don't want to know, or see it.

It's true that there's still discrimination against gays (and there probably will always will be some residual bigotry), but today they aren't routinely arrested, fired or carted off to mental institutions they way they were before Stonewall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots) 40 years ago. Today gays and lesbians are corporate and government leaders. Today corporate America is courting the gay market because they know there's money to be made there. Today survey research shows acceptance for gays increases every year, particularly among younger people. I'd say that's significant progress -- and in less than two generations. So if we're willing to fight for it, I'm confident we can gain similar acceptance. Tolerance doesn't mean you have to like someone you think is "different" it just means you're willing to live and let live.

Delila

06-13-2006, 03:22 AM

I agree about the coming out part, but unfortunatly its just not time YET there are just too many biggots out there. I live in Colorado which seems pretty open minded but just the other day I heard some guys saying how they wanted to beat the crap out of a crossdresser just because they didnt like it. How does one stand up against such undeserved hate. Sadly there is not much we can do at the moment then stay somewhat hidden. I say for the moment because whether it is related or not the whole gay rights issue will make or break c/ds being open. I may be wrong but thats just my opinion.

Sharon

06-13-2006, 06:59 AM

TGMarla

06-13-2006, 08:00 AM

I'm single, but for damned sure I'm not going marry some socially conservative woman in hopes that living with her would cure me and then tell her after 30 years of marriage and then whine about how she's not accepting.I married my wife because I love her, not because as a socially conservative woman, I was hoping for some "cure". So please stop with the broad generalizations that just don't hold water. I'm in the closet. I'm not ashamed of that. I might perhaps wish that my situation was somehow different, but I don't lose any sleep over it. I agree in principle with most everything you have stated, but I'm not about to compare the lot of crossdressers in our society to the plight of colored people in the 20th century and before. We are not put down as 3rd class citizens by a racial majority who thinks themselves better people by some genetic miracle of fortune. We are people who happen to bend the fabric of sexual and social norms. This makes people uncomfortable. I understand that, and I have no doubts that many or most people will not change, no matter how much education is out there.

For some of us, the need to be out there among people is very strong. It is not that way for everyone. I dress for my own gratification, not for anyone else's. I'm not trying to fool people into thinking that I'm female. I merely like to emulate females by making myself appear that way. I don't care if anyone ever witnesses it. I do not feel that put out that society in general does not tolerate it.

Rights? I don't require the right to wear a skirt in public. I can do it if I feel like it. I don't want to wear one to work, except in my dreams. I like the fact that skirts and dresses are for women, and not for men. That's why when I dress up, I do so as a woman. Isn't that the whole point? So while I'm hopeful for a more tolerant society, I'm just not on board with the whole revolution thing.

Amelie

06-13-2006, 08:06 AM

I think the answer is right in front of all of yall eyes. The computer.

Today, one doesn't have to march and shout to be heard. The computer and this forum could be the way to gain some things you seek.

We all know that bloggers are a very powerful tool in politics. Bloogers can be just as powerful as network news channels.

Blogs are kust words on a computer site or sites, just the same as we, at cd.com are just words on a computer site.

I don't have the knowledge for how it can be done, but maybe there is a way of using cd.com as a power tool in gatting your rights. Maybe if this site. which has thousands of members can be a voice as strong as the bloggers.

Maybe if we use cd.com collectively as one voice of many people, maybe at least some politicians will take notice, politicians do take notice when there are large groups talking to them and cD.com is a large group. And most won't even have to come out of the closet in order to be heard.

I don't know if this could work, but hey, it's right there in front of you.

BlueKat

06-13-2006, 08:21 AM

CaptLex

06-13-2006, 09:27 AM

I agree about the coming out part, but unfortunatly its just not time YET there are just too many biggots out there.
I don't think there will ever be a right time. No one is ever going to turn to us and say, "Okay, we're ready to be more tolerant now."

If women had waited until men decided it was time to allow them to vote, blacks had waited until it was time to be allowed to sit at the front of the bus or gays had waited until the authorities thought it was time to stop arresting them just for congregating in the same place, these groups would still be waiting for things to change.

If we wait for the right time, we'll wait forever.

Kimberley

06-13-2006, 11:54 AM

I take exception to the inference that I am somehow less because I am "in the closet." That is total BS.

I am out to my wife. Her approach is if you are going to pursue that lifestyle, I am gone; with the house, the cars, the pensions all of it. So, I am supposed to come out of the closet and march in the streets? I am supposed to toss away 35 years of hard work for an ideal? GET A GRIP!!!

This isnt about the individual, this is about human rights at large.
When the legal system treats everyone the same, then some gain will have been made.
When the schools in Lubbock Texas teach diversity, some gain will have been made.
When Jerry Falwell stands up and says love your neighbour even if he is in a dress, gains will have been made.
When I can walk into the boardroom in a skirt and blouse, gains will have been made.
When the camera scans Oprah's audience and passes over me enfemme without stopping, gains will have been made.

Acceptance cannot be forced, if that were the case there would be no more gay bashing, no more racism, no more bigotry because all these and more are espoused in law as basic human rights. Change has to come because of societal acceptance, not beating drums or burning our bras. (mine are too expensive to burn anyway).

Kimberley.

Oh, and I am not above signing my full male name either. More than a few on these forums know who I am as a male. But why? Is that who I really am? I dont think sooooo.

Sophia Rearen

06-13-2006, 12:32 PM

This isnt about the individual, this is about human rights at large.
When the legal system treats everyone the same, then some gain will have been made.
When the schools in Lubbock Texas teach diversity, some gain will have been made.
When Jerry Falwell stands up and says love your neighbour even if he is in a dress, gains will have been made.
When I can walk into the boardroom in a skirt and blouse, gains will have been made.
When the camera scans Oprah's audience and passes over me enfemme without stopping, gains will have been made.

Acceptance cannot be forced, if that were the case there would be no more gay bashing, no more racism, no more bigotry because all these and more are espoused in law as basic human rights. Change has to come because of societal acceptance, not beating drums or burning our bras. (mine are too expensive to burn anyway).

Kimberley.

Can you get "there" without activism?

VeronicaMoonlit

06-13-2006, 01:06 PM

Rights? I don't require the right to wear a skirt in public. I can do it if I feel like it. I don't want to wear one to work, except in my dreams. I like the fact that skirts and dresses are for women, and not for men. That's why when I dress up, I do so as a woman. Isn't that the whole point? So while I'm hopeful for a more tolerant society, I'm just not on board with the whole revolution thing.

Hmmmm

When I say "right", i'm not talking about dressing in public, or walking into the drugstore and buying makeup because we already have that. As far as I know there are no laws against crossdressing still on the books anywhere (in the US). What I'm talking about is things like employment. I don't want some CD who is content to dress at home to be accidentally found out and then fired, harassed or whatnot. a la Peter Oiler. I want those who are full time in whatever way to be not discrimanted against in housing, employment, etc.

For that to happen, we need human rights laws protecting us. We have that in Illinois. We have that because people stood up and fought for it. How else is it going to happen.

If you want a more tolerant society, how do we acheive that? By hiding, and hoping people won't notice us? Or just hoping things will get better without us having to do anything?

No, we have to do stuff. It doesn't have to be marches on washington or anything, like I said, little things add up.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

VeronicaMoonlit

06-13-2006, 01:21 PM

I take exception to the inference that I am somehow less because I am "in the closet." That is total BS.

Less? No, I didn't say that.

I am out to my wife. Her approach is if you are going to pursue that lifestyle, I am gone; with the house, the cars, the pensions all of it. So, I am supposed to come out of the closet and march in the streets? I am supposed to toss away 35 years of hard work for an ideal? GET A GRIP!!!

Who says you have to pursue any specific lifestlyle to help? I didn't say one had to "dress full time", I didn't say one had to "march in the streets". Geebus, I think some of you are reading more intent into what I said and using that as an justification to not do anything

This isnt about the individual, this is about human rights at large.

That's right, but don't you want Transfolk to not have to worry about their pensions etc, if they happen to come out either by purpose or by accident?

Acceptance cannot be forced,

Perhaps, but sometimes something has to be forced. When the supreme court said that separate schools were not equal, now that was force. When they sent National Guard to protect those young people attending university, that was force. And they were in the right by doing it. It had to be done. Sometimes just sitting on your duff waiting for change is not going to do any good.

if that were the case there would be no more gay bashing, no more racism, no more bigotry because all these and more are espoused in law as basic human rights.

There's a lot less of that stuff, than there was even 20 years ago, because of people "forcing" things.

Change has to come because of societal acceptance, not beating drums or burning our bras. (mine are too expensive to burn anyway).

Wrong. Change requires action and that can lead to more societal acceptance faster than just waiting. If you wait for societal acceptance, then you're going to wait a long time. Is that a good thing? Did other groups "just wait" until others said, "hey now it's okay for women to vote" or "hey, that mim crow stuff isnt nice so we'll stop it now". No, they did things, sometimes big things, sometimes small things, but they did take action.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

Maria D

06-13-2006, 02:36 PM

I am out to my wife. Her approach is if you are going to pursue that lifestyle, I am gone; with the house, the cars, the pensions all of it. So, I am supposed to come out of the closet and march in the streets? I am supposed to toss away 35 years of hard work for an ideal? GET A GRIP!!!

Yeah, therein lies the problem, and the point, really. What we want is that attitudes change so that doesn't happen IN THE FUTURE. That requires effort in the here and now, and that obviously isn't desirable for those, like you, who'd lose everything so the next generation didn't lose everything. What we're talking here is taking the risk of self sacrifice, facing the fear of it, and the fact that for some people it really will go t*ts up, and then having to deal with that, in the name of someone else you'll never know, and without thanks too. If you don't, fair enough, who can blame you, honestly? But of course, if you don't, nothing changes. When Rosa Parks stayed sitting down, it wasn't the easy option was it?
That's as balanced as I can make it. No activism, just the summary that things won't change without being pushed. I think it's a good thing, but there should never be an obligation on anyone, either way, that's just not fair.

Someone assumed that society would just carry on being 'more open', well that's just daft. We were more open before the victorians, then it took decades to slide into the puritan society we remember of them, then it slid out again. Do NOT assume that it won't slide back again if opinion swings that way. It could, it really could, if pushed that way by conservative people. Society changes direction sometimes; if you want it to go in a particular way, then push.

Take care :)

kwebb

06-13-2006, 02:43 PM

Right, what one must fundamentally understand here, is that, to do so (that is, move forward in society), this WILL require some loss/risk and to be honest,

quite possibly some bloodshed. It may indeed require some physical altercation.

Kimberley

06-13-2006, 02:44 PM

Thank you Maria. I knew you would see the point.

I am not militant but I am definitely an advocate. I do write letters expressing my opinions of the lack of support and the likes. I do express my outrage when appropriate. This does not mean I am on the front lines but I am still proactive. I can do my bit and not jeopardize a thing.

Is that wrong? I think not.

Kimberley

CaptLex

06-13-2006, 03:01 PM

this WILL require some loss/risk and to be honest, quite possibly some bloodshed. It may indeed require some physical altercation.
What's that saying . . . ? To make an omelette, you have to break some eggs? (Something like that.) 0.02

BlueKat

06-13-2006, 03:55 PM

Perhaps, but sometimes something has to be forced. When the supreme court said that separate schools were not equal, now that was force. When they sent National Guard to protect those young people attending university, that was force. And they were in the right by doing it. It had to be done. Sometimes just sitting on your duff waiting for change is not going to do any good.
Really *bad* analogies. Crossdressing isn't even close to being of equal importance to those issues.

Sophia Rearen

06-13-2006, 04:22 PM

Really *bad* analogies. Crossdressing isn't even close to being of equal importance to those issues.

Whose to say? Can importance be measured? Whether the rights are for one or one billion.

Ms. Donna

06-13-2006, 05:04 PM

Really *bad* analogies. Crossdressing isn't even close to being of equal importance to those issues.

Again, it's not about crossdressing! :Angry3:

It's about not being persecuted for being different. It's about tolerance and understanding. It's about raising social awareness...

It's about being allowed to become who you are without fear of getting the shit kicked out of as a result.

Ms. Donna

06-13-2006, 05:10 PM

Read about Tyra Hunter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyra_Hunter) who was allowed to die with the paramedics standing by laughing... All because she was transgendered.

There are many more cases like this were we are not deemed 'worth the effort' by society.

You want a reason... It could be you someday. :(

Regards,
Donna

BlueKat

06-13-2006, 05:28 PM

It's about being allowed to become who you are without fear of getting the shit kicked out of as a result.

It all comes down to CHOICE...you make the choice how, when, where, or IF you CD. Without fear of getting the shit kicked out you?
There is a risk for virtually everything you do in your life.
You can't control the thoughts and actions of every person in society.
You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.

Maria D

06-13-2006, 05:57 PM

It's all comes down to CHOICE...you make the choice how, when, where, or IF you CD. Without fear of getting the shit kicked out you?
There is a risk for virtually everything you do in your life.
You can't control the thoughts and actions of every person in society.
You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.

So crossdressing is a choice? And there was me thinking it was part of who you are, like being gay, and that getting hurt because of who you are is a little harsh. I suppose you could argue it was the Jews fault they were killed by the nazis, because they were Jews. That IS your logic, unless you really feel that CDing is a choice. I don't know, I'm not one, shall we ask the members here if it's a choice or a need?

Secondly, if the consequence of your actions involves someone doing something illegal, and you are not inciting that person to do something, it is not your responsibilty.
It's critical to understand that as human beings we have the right to do as we wish providing it doesn't hurt anyone intentionally. It is NOT upon you to ensure you stay hidden so as not to offend, it is NOT up to you to avoid being beaten up, it IS ABSOLUTELY upon everyone else to leave you alone and let you do as you please. Any other mentality is moving simply in the direction of bigotted hatred, with the end of THAT line being terrorists. They disagree strongly enough with $whatever to kill, or even die for it.

For instance, should I start living as a fundemental muslim just to please Al Quieda? If not, then why should I start living as the version of normal desired by a TG hating person? Or how about the Catholic parents of my fiancee who hate me for who I am?

BlueKat

06-13-2006, 06:11 PM

So crossdressing is a choice?
I'm not saying we choose whether or not we are CD's. Of course we have no choice over that. I'm saying when and where we CD is definitely a CHOICE.

It's critical to understand that as human beings we have the right to do as we wish providing it doesn't hurt anyone intentionally. It is NOT upon you to ensure you stay hidden so as not to offend, it is NOT up to you to avoid being beaten up, it IS ABSOLUTELY upon everyone else to leave you alone and let you do as you please.
Sure, you can do what you want....and all this sounds good, but as I said...you can't control the actions of others in society. It's pretty simple, really.

Deborah

06-13-2006, 06:13 PM

you gotta fight....for your right.....to dress up.

Not quite Beastie Boyish, but it works. :D

Maria D

06-13-2006, 06:19 PM

you can't control the actions of others in society. It's pretty simple, really.
Given the relative lack of 'out' CDs, those that seek to repress you one way or another, for instance fear of being beaten up, seem to be managing to control quite a number of people, don't they?

You are essentially saying 'conform or take the risk'. That is control.

Donna O

06-13-2006, 06:25 PM

Peter Oiler. Google it.

Do you want to be fired for CDing at home? No? Then don't you want laws protecting your civil rights? Yes? Then you've got to fight for them. Now you may be thinking, "I'll just stay very deep in my closet, no one will know."

Is that good for your mental health to do that?
Is that good for CD's as a whole to do that?

That's the problem with the past generations of CD's concentrating on being safe in their closets. Don't you want things to be better? Don't you want the next generation to have it easier than we did? Something has to be done.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

Hi this is Peter Oiler (yes that one)

Yes! I lost a very good job, and the law suite. But all things considered the best that I did was to go back to church full time (Yes dressed , Most think I am a better person when dressed). My wife and I go lots of places together, I get most of my needs in mainstream stores. The best way I see to get what most of us need or want is :: One - To be counted in a way that the press and government will believe. Two - Get as many of us elected to important offices.
Even if your still in the closet, You can send a postcard to a current elected official, and say I am a voter and a X dresser or T.S. and if you fail me, I will vote you OUT.

Peter (Donna ) Oiler0.02

BlueKat

06-13-2006, 06:42 PM

you gotta fight....for your right.....to dress up.
Not quite Beastie Boyish, but it works. :D
How about the ever-popular Crossdresser's Cheer?
"Rah, Rah, Rah...We wanna wear a BRA!"
ok...ok...it was lame, I admit... :tongueout

Given the relative lack of 'out' CDs, those that seek to repress you one way or another, for instance fear of being beaten up, seem to be managing to control quite a number of people, don't they?
Well, I don't personally feel that I'm being "repressed", so let's not make that sound like a blanket statement, ok?
But yes, you're correct that the number of closeted CD's far outnumbers the "out" CD's. And, do you really honestly feel that's likely to change anytime soon?

You are essentially saying 'conform or take the risk'. That is control.
Essentially, yes...I believe that's basically how the cookie crumbles.
Live your life how you choose to live it. But, be prepared to take responsibility for your actions. A little common sense goes a long way.
0.02

Sophia Rearen

06-13-2006, 07:56 PM

Lady SMO / Donna O,
Thank you.

Maria D

06-14-2006, 01:24 PM

Essentially, yes...I believe that's basically how the cookie crumbles.
Live your life how you choose to live it. But, be prepared to take responsibility for your actions. A little common sense goes a long way.
0.02

Then we have a fundamental difference of opinion.
Given the definition of risk, yes almost everything in life is a risk. Leaving the bed is a risk, but then, staying in bed is too.
What I do not agree with is the idea that you doing or being something is justification for their actions. It is THEY who are responsible for their actions, not you. THAT is personal responsibilty, not shifting the blame onto the victim.
I hear the 'take responsibility' thing a lot regarding women raped 'because' they wore pretty clothes, and it's utter rubbish.

My 0.0108352 pennies worth :)

Casey Morgan

06-14-2006, 02:19 PM

OK, how about an Activism 101 primer for those of us who need a little instruction? I've always been a "don't make waves" person. You tend to get emotionally and verbally beat up if you do. But I'm done with that. I've accepted that my thoughts and opinions are just as valid as anyone else's. And now I know I have the right to express them. (Off topic: that's the first time I've said that and meant it. Gee, those years of therapy just keep paying off, don't they?)

So what do I do? Get the USA Today and write in anytime I see something that needs commenting on? ("Dear editor: I think your readers should know that the man pleasuring himself in the library while wearing a dress is not typical of the CD community." Our local paper is so slanetd it's a miracle it doesn't fall over, BTW. I don't read it anymore.) Write my representatives at the various levels and say what? And what else?

I'm being serious. I never did anything like this before because I was never really worth anything before. So I'm 38 years behind the times.

I'm not out yet to my family yet but I will be Friday (Thursday night actually). Long story for another post. I plan to wait a bit before considering coming out at work. So I still need to be a bit careful yet.

BlueKat

06-14-2006, 02:45 PM

Then we have a fundamental difference of opinion.
Yes we do...so what? This isn't the Stepford Wives, afterall. :p

What I do not agree with is the idea that you doing or being something is justification for their actions.
I don't believe I ever said it "justified" their actions. I never said it was "right" or "fair" either. It is what it is. Much of life is not fair.

I hear the 'take responsibility' thing a lot regarding women raped 'because' they wore pretty clothes, and it's utter rubbish.

Hmmm..."pretty" or "****ty" ? There is a difference. I do believe if a woman dresses "****ty" in public, she definitely increases her chances of bad circumstances happening.
Take responsibility. Make wise choices.

purple_spider GG

06-14-2006, 03:01 PM

With you all the way on this Christina Nicole.
I really dont get the we must make a stand thing, OK if you are TS you have a very fair point but if you are a guy in a dress it really is not a lifestyle thing its just a bit of fun and if it isnt then WTF you doing it for.

There are plenty of transgender people who live full time without transitioning, they are not just a bloke in a frock they are doing it for real as much as someone who is transitioning would do. Perhaps for some it is fun but for people who are transgenderist it is not a case of dressing up for fun even though they are not transitioning!

I am all the way with the idea that no one should have to hide if they don't want to, why should people conform to please others and pander to the whims of conservatives in society?

Making a stand is good because the more you hide the more it implies that its your 'dirty' secret when in fact you have done nothing wrong :) I just don't get all this self loathing I read about on here, so many of you think you are somehow unworthy and then you berate people who have the guts to say 'i'm out and proud'. Hiding it and condeming yourself just feeds the transphobic attitudes of society. Don't let these conservatives win, in the UK we have made good moves towards affirming the rights of gay couples through civil partnerships and for transsexuals through the gender recognition act: it took protests, complaints and campaigns to get this recognised. The EU was our saving grace because they declared UK law in violation of human rights and it all went on from there.

Bit of militancy thats what I like to see - being a proud socialist and all that ;)

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

tekla west

06-14-2006, 03:35 PM

Most people think
Great god will come from the skies
Take away everything
And make everybody feel high
But if you know what life is worth
You would look for yours on earth
And now you've seen the light
You stand up for your rights

Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, stand up for your rights
Get up, stand up, don't give up the fight

St. Bob Marley, of course. And old Bob has a point - at least for some of us. When I finally made the "what the hell" decision (and granted, it was in San Francisco so it was not exactly bold or revolutionary) I first sought out support groups. But I did not need support. I needed shopping, dinner, and dancing. In that order. But I did see a need for some CD representation on the Transgender Civil Rights Board here. It was all TS, and that is fine, they have different needs, and they can't hide. But we CDs were part of this umbrella so I stood up and was appointed. At first they were a bit unsure, after all I pass about as good as a VW Bug going up a mountian. But I made myself of value, particulary in reaching out to TGs involved in the Sex Industy where they had - as you might imagine - frequent encounters with the police.

About the only true CD cause I could push was for unisex bathrooms and the phrasing in the law that one should use the correct room for your presentation. Not a big deal. But its good. The big deal turned out to be how much it changed me. I went from being an academic always using the correct fork and never using bad grammer & being a closet CD more or less - to a person who went out to some of the worst places (I didn't even know such places existed) and dealing with people who I had no idea even existed, much less ever encountered. Them girls learned me a lesson or two no doubt. I got a master's course in TG for sure.

Its been good for me. I love to dance at raves and techno clubs, and where a fifty year old guy is looked upon as some sort of odd freak, a CD is just the belle of the ball. So that has been good.

But its not for everyone. And perhaps for some it will be later, just not now. I only did this once my kids were in college, once my wife had run away with her 28year old BF. Once I left Iowa for home in SF. Once I quit teaching at the university and found myself back in the theatre, which has always been my first love. ("we all have major changes in life that are more or less a second chance." Harrison Ford)

I don't regret that it took so long. Everything takes as long as it takes after all. There is a time for everything. So for some that time is not yet here. For others, it will never come in.

Do not push people out. That is bad. Let them find thier own way, choose thier own day. If some of us are out, setting a good example, fighting for political change, or educating, then that's good. Do that. Thrive in it. Perhaps others might join us later. Or not. Either way, its THIER decision, not ours.

Maria D

06-14-2006, 05:14 PM

I don't believe I ever said it "justified" their actions.

Yes, you did. Specifically, you said 'You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.' and also 'Take responsibility. Make wise choices.'
By shifting the responsibility onto the (for example) CDer, you absolve the (for example) beater of blame. That's exactly why placing responsibility is important. Many wife beaters say 'she made me', many rapists say 'she led me on', many sex offenders say 'well she shouldn't have dressed like that, she was asking for it' the fundamental fact is that no one is responsible for other people's actions.
That does not deny that bad things happen, but whether I get kicked to death in a dark alley or in broad daylight in a town centre, as happens, the kicker is responsible.

Hmmm..."pretty" or "****ty" ? There is a difference. I do believe if a woman dresses "****ty" in public, she definitely increases her chances of bad circumstances happening.
Perhaps she should scratch her face off too, since being pretty might increase her chances? She's got the right to be whatever she wants if it's legal. Making it her fault if bad things happen is just wrong.

BlueKat

06-14-2006, 06:16 PM

Yes, you did. Specifically, you said 'You just have to accept the consequences of your actions.' and also 'Take responsibility. Make wise choices.' By shifting the responsibility onto the (for example) CDer, you absolve the (for example) beater of blame.

I guess you can take whatever you want out of what I said, that's your right. :straightface:
The fact is...Never did I say, nor would I say, anyone would be "justified" if they decided to beat the snot out of someone for crossdressing.
Be an adult. Take responsibility for the consequences of your actions. Why is that so hard to understand?

Making it her fault if bad things happen is just wrong.
You sound like you want some sort of GUARANTEE that nothing bad will ever happen to anyone who CD's in public, no matter how they act, or dress.

In a perfect world...Yes, maybe that's the way things OUGHT TO BE.
In a perfect world...Yes, maybe this sort of GUARANTEE would be possible.
Newsflash: This isn't a perfect world. :straightface:

gennee

06-14-2006, 06:45 PM

gennee

06-14-2006, 06:54 PM

TVStevie

06-14-2006, 07:17 PM

Somewhere, there's an "Adult Baby" website pushing exactly the same argument. "Wear your bonnet and suck your dummy with pride...it's everybody else that needs to change, not us." :tongueout

Jeez, society doesn't like it you don't vote the same, think the same or feel the same about everything. Should I sacrifice my position within the community to push the 'CD rights' issue, when I don't even care about going out en femme? Sorry, but I don't agree here.

ReginaK

06-14-2006, 11:17 PM

I'm with Veronica. I'm tired of being disrespected for who I am. Tired of being the butt of jokes. Tired of being looked at as some ill person because of the DSM-IV.

I disgusted by the apathy that is so prevalent among crossdressers. So many of you wonder why your wives don't accept you. Well you can't get acceptance fron anyone without respect. And you can't get respect until you can show the world you will stand up for yourself.

I've got my marching boots ready. Just name the time and place.

BlueKat

06-14-2006, 11:49 PM

I've got my marching boots ready. Just name the time and place.
It's summer. I don't think boots are appropriate. :p

cata

06-16-2006, 12:47 PM

First I must congratulate so many with the power and spirit to fight for your rights to express your true self!
Though I confess being empassioned by the act of crossdress, it isn't my main preoccupation, so tend to work in the struggle for other rights, like the right to breathe without dying from poison, the right to be free! without big brother watching w.ith steel toed boots!
I guess I've done my share somewhat only, by always wearing ambiguous androgynous dress, exploring my feminine nature. I guess I see crossdress as just one manifestation of a more androgynous or feminine nature in male biology. Though my facial features may pass, I've lived the life of a male, developing strong male body, so would never pass...but rather enjoy some dress to arouse my femine nature and feeling.
But I do feel strong about, like so many of you, the need to fight for freedom of gender orientation! Generally!
In this vein I could see the use in our coming together somehow, to express ourselves together. Also I could see the value in a separate forum, oriented to such discussions, our right to freedom of expression without cultural repression!
...cata

Ms. Donna

07-02-2006, 10:20 PM

Here is all the reason necessary:

Remembering Our Dead (http://www.gender.org/remember/about/core.html)

Taken from the website:

The idea for this memorial came while posting to a message board in the Transgender Community Forum on America Online, discussing the murder of Rita Hester and the wrongful death/survivor’s action for Tyra Hunter. So many had forgotten some of the individuals we had lost in only the recent past and I felt that, by forgetting those individuals, we would be doomed to see their deaths repeated. Indeed, the passing of Rita Hester is similar enough to the death of Chanelle Pickett to leave one wondering.

We have lost so many people in our community to the hand of hatred and predjudice, yet we still are not seemingly willing to fight back. Meanwhile, we die at the hands of a lover, of police, of medical practitioners, and even parents, while the news media calls us “freaks” — and worse.

In fact, the media’s reluctance to cover our deaths lies near the heart of this project. It can be all-but-impossible to find honest, reliable media on the death of a transgendered person: It either does not exist (which is how one can cover thirty years of cases and still only have as many as I have to present), or it uses names that the deceased did not own, and pronouns that did not fit their reality.

There is no “safe way” to be transgendered: as you look at the many names collected here, note that some of these people may have identified as drag queens, some as heterosexual crossdressers, and some as transsexuals. Some were living very out lives, and some were living fully “stealth” lives. Some were identifying as male, and some, as female. Some lived in small towns, and some in major metropolitan areas.

In fact, one thing that has come to light in doing this project is how much more is yet to be done. Over the last decade, one person per month has died due to transgender-based hate or prejudice, regardless of any other factors in their lives. This trend shows no sign of abating.

I’m reminded of the words of a writer, Ralph Werther (also known as Jennie June and Earl Lind) who, in 1922, said, “Child of English Culture, reflect a moment, and ask yourself whether you are at last, in this great enlightened century of man’s existence, willing to grant justice and humane treatment to the androgyne and gynander? Do you still insist that these sexual cripples continue to suffer physical and mental torture for another century because your own pleasure bulks too large for you to hear and bear the truth about the despairing cross-sexed?”

The language may be antiquated, but the feelings are the same: will we be willing to bear yet another century of violence and hatred aimed at those who do not so easily wear “man” or “woman?”

When you look at the names here, remember these people. Cry for those who we have lost, and let your anger out for a society that would allow them to die.

—Gwendolyn Ann Smith, 8th February, 1999

Love & Stuff,
Donna

mesy1

07-03-2006, 11:00 AM

If only we all had you nerve.I would love to let people know how I dress!, but you see we are in 2006,people are mean !!!!! What they don't under stand they atack.I do not see the point in getting hurt!I am going to make new friends here @ this forum,maybe I will come out of my bubble some day,for now I share with my wife,she loves it!!!! I love her so much that it is enough for me know.Someone here[like you!!!!]allwas makes me thing what it would be like if you could just be who you want to be,it seems every one has there own mask on that they show everyone,real or not,we are afrade of the trueth!!!!!thank you,from Randi.e-mail to [email protected]

Snookums

07-03-2006, 05:11 PM

Veronica,perhaps crossdressers should get as militant as other groups have.They toot their loud horns,get noticed,then get all these stupid laws passed so they can be privaledged,you know what I mean,more of a deserving american than other americans.Like being fortunate enough to be granted minority status,wow look how that took off,who'd a thunk it.So crossdressers unite,lets blow our loud horns,lets march,hell lets get Cindy Sheehan in the herd,she can help us get what we want.

Kimberly

07-03-2006, 06:53 PM

Excellent!!

As an advocate for this, I'm going shopping tomorrow - and I don't give a sht what people think!

I've wanted to be out on a few occassions, but things have held me back. School life, parents, social groups.

I'd love to say "fck them" and be done with it... but life isn't that easy. I will, however, try to do more for myself in the way of stepping out, and also helping in the acceptance of the transgendered community.

A superb manifesto. xx

Eleanor

07-03-2006, 06:58 PM

And you have to laugh J.Edgar Hoover FBI was a CD!What was that line from the movie "Die Hard",something like:"You ask for a miracle and I give you the F-B-I.":D

Khriss

07-03-2006, 07:13 PM

.... there's a "given" that crossdressers are gay (generaly-not !) and if -gay..trying to subvert social morals ...a wrong interpretation to bare pehaps...while such missinformation lingers and might for some time..
I vote..be "carefull" eh ? xx"K"

Snookums

07-03-2006, 08:51 PM

Charleen

07-03-2006, 11:03 PM

0.02 Yeah I'm new , but i have to jump in. I hate to say it , but the world ain't ready for us.Veronica, you do not like people saying,"But I'm from so&so.". It's a fact of life sweety.There are some parts of this Country that are so backward and ignorant that it is beyyond belief! It's going to take a lot of time. My neighbor uses the "N" word for the blacks.Redneck and hateful? To the max! I can't even guess what his reaction would be to me taking in my garbage can enfemme! For now I'm happy being who I am. Yes I live in 2 worlds, as Lily as well as Charlie. Out there I'm a historical reenactor portraying many time periods, and as such, have a mustache and beard. You know what? I love what I do and the facial hair adds to my performance mentally as well as looking the part. I am content to dress when I can. As of yesterday, I have the house to myself as my son moved out to start his own life, so I had the luxury of treating myself all day. Lately I have taken to be a hidden CD by wearing my panties and hose when I go out. I have bought clothing , make-up and jewelry on many occasions. Let them look at me wierd, I don't care what they think and if anyone spots my shaved legs, I'll tell them thats the way I like it 'cause the hair drives me crazy!Veronica, bottom line , nothing in this life is fair, especially when dealing with the unwashed masses, and they ain't going away and get enlighten and accepting of what they consider to be morally wrong. A good friend of mine once told to be happy, you have to be comfortable in your own skin. If taking this stand does that for you, go for it. I'll be that Victorian gentleman on the side lines cheering you on while wearing my back lace panties and being very happy in my skin. Good Luck Hun.

VeronicaMoonlit

07-04-2006, 02:45 AM

0.02 Yeah I'm new , but i have to jump in. I hate to say it , but the world ain't ready for us.Veronica, you do not like people saying,"But I'm from so&so.". It's a fact of life sweety.There are some parts of this Country that are so backward and ignorant that it is beyyond belief! It's going to take a lot of time.

Sure there's not so nice places, but perhaps we should try to make those places nicer places. :-)

My neighbor uses the "N" word for the blacks.Redneck and hateful? To the max!

I'm not trying to be mean here, but do you call him on it? You know say something like "Don't use that word, it's hateful, distasteful and downright rude and unacceptable behavior"

That's what we're going to have to do in general.

I'm a historical reenactor portraying many time periods, and as such, have a mustache and beard. You know what? I love what I do and the facial hair adds to my performance mentally as well as looking the part.

Cool! Then you pretty much have to have the facial hair, that's understandable.

I have bought clothing , make-up and jewelry on many occasions. Let them look at me wierd, I don't care what they think and if anyone spots my shaved legs, I'll tell them thats the way I like it 'cause the hair drives me crazy!

You and other folk who do that should be very proud of yourselves. Really. That sort of thing is a good thing and it requires bravery and courage.

I'll be that Victorian gentleman on the side lines cheering you on while wearing my back lace panties and being very happy in my skin. Good Luck Hun.

Thankee kindly for the cheers.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

Charleen

07-04-2006, 07:06 AM

Damn right I called him on it. I askled him why he refered to them that way and he said thats what they are.Did you ever try to have a conversation with anyone whos beliefs are seem to be hard wired into thier brain? It's like talking to brick wall and just about productive.As assinine as their convictions are,you can never get through. Veronica, I admire your convictions. I do. Maybe something can come of this. In the mean time, we all can try to shed a little light into all the dark recesses of ignorance where we find them, what ever the cause.

Phoebe Reece

07-04-2006, 01:12 PM

Veronica’s call to action is not just as an invitation for everyone who considers themselves transgendered in some way to militantly run into the streets demanding rights. Many of the responders here have cited their philosophical or personal reasons for not doing that. Others have given their moral support to the idea, but seem to lack specifics about what to do. As Veronica pointed out, there are many small things that can be done that will let the public know that we exist and do not present a threat. Here are some examples:

1. If you are shopping for femme items (clothing, makeup, etc.) and a sales clerk asks to help you, do not say you are buying something for your wife, mother, sister, or girlfriend. Be honest and say it is for yourself. In doing so, you will not only have let someone know “we” are around, but you will end up with a purchase more suitable for yourself.

2. If you are out dressed enfemme and someone “reads” you, don’t just slink away and sulk about your inability to “pass”. Give that person who read you a smile, and if the opportunity presents itself, go over and talk to them. Explain that you are crossdresser and answer any questions they may have.

3. If you are comfortable going out dressed enfemme, try going to places other than just your local gay bar. Go to “straight” restaurants once in awhile. Visit museums and other tourist places. Travel around on a bus, subway, or train. Go to the same places that ordinary GG’s would go. You will almost certainly get read by some people in these places, and by that happening, the message will get across that TG people are not just creatures of the night that only hang out in smoky bars.

4. Actively support your sisters, either through organized support groups, or by just being a good friend to another person who is TG. Many of us have gotten our courage to go out in public have done so with the active encouragement of our sisters who went ahead of us. If you are actively out and about, take the time to show the “new girl” some of your makeup techniques or offer to help her with some shopping or just accompany her when she is ready to present herself fully dressed out in the real world.

5. If the opportunity presents itself, and your personal situation will allow you to participate, consider being part of a presentation on crossdressing to a college class. College class presentations give you the best opportunity to shape opinions in young minds in a favorable way towards crossdressing. Those that you educate will tell others and spread the message even farther.

6. Be aware of who the candidates are in all public elections and where they stand on transgender issues. Vote for the candidates that you feel will best serve your interests.

Bernice

07-04-2006, 02:09 PM

Thank you Phoebe.

I was beginning to wonder when someone would say "you can never win an argument with an idiot" and someone else would start flaming. We have the right to disagree, but we should remember that we have some pretty significant common ground. We mustn't fight amongst ourselves. The bigoted behaviors are the real enemy, and acceptance of those intolerant behaviours is defeat in itself.

Phoebe, you give excellent advice that I can begin to incorporate right away, without having to have Veronica's immense courage to do battle in the name of acceptance. How fitting that you waited until Independence day to share your wisdom.

VeronicaMoonlit

07-04-2006, 02:26 PM

Damn right I called him on it.

Woo hoo. That's courage.

. In the mean time, we all can try to shed a little light into all the dark recesses of ignorance where we find them, what ever the cause.

Yes.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

VeronicaMoonlit

07-04-2006, 02:28 PM

As Veronica pointed out, there are many small things that can be done that will let the public know that we exist and do not present a threat. Here are some examples:

Thanks Phoebe, this is exactly the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

Kimberly

07-04-2006, 05:52 PM

That's great Phoebe! Thanks. :)

(I did it... today I bought some shoes. Wedge sandels. And tbh - I didn't notice anyone actually give a flying fck)

Best regards to all xx

Jesse69

07-04-2006, 08:29 PM

Hmmmm

When I say "right", i'm not talking about dressing in public, or walking into the drugstore and buying makeup because we already have that. As far as I know there are no laws against crossdressing still on the books anywhere (in the US). What I'm talking about is things like employment. I don't want some CD who is content to dress at home to be accidentally found out and then fired, harassed or whatnot. a la Peter Oiler. I want those who are full time in whatever way to be not discrimanted against in housing, employment, etc.

For that to happen, we need human rights laws protecting us. We have that in Illinois. We have that because people stood up and fought for it. How else is it going to happen.
.

I was found out and fired just like Peter Oiler. And two law firms and the EEOC dismissed me. I do live in IL, and hope the new anti gay laws protect me. My last employer was pretty good, and I think they knew about me. It seems that every company that I work for has spied on me, and I'm a closet crossdressor.

Now I comtemplate buying womans clothes in full femme attire + wig -- if I ever got a new job. I'd do this to keep my ID secret when I buy clothes. I got this from looking at how Deidra Cowen gets away with all her cding and her career.

I think a "guy in a dress" look or a "woman in men's clothes look" is ugly. When you do it try to be as passable as possible or not do it at all - that's my view.

Most of the time when guys know I'm a CDr they don't want to make friends with me. A lot of straight people hate us, and I lost a lot of potential jobs because they knew.

RuPaul and Dennis Rodman didn't do a lot to advance our cause. There aren't many (any?) examples of public crossdressors who where looked up to in society.

Crossdressing lowers a man's esteem in society.

vcutenyc

07-04-2006, 08:50 PM

i couldnt read through the whole thread so maybe this has been brought up but i remember a section of "My Husband Betty" where she talks about politics and social issues of Trans people. She made a point that many if not most crossdressers will always remain private and not speak up for recognition because the can persue their activity in private and still keep all the societal benefits of being male in ordinary life. she makes the point that most males wouldnt like to give up this status and therefore are very unlikely to come out in a way it will jeapordize their situation (i.e. family, job, community). I think she makes a very valid point in this regard and thats why you wont see a mass movement of CD'ers looking for recognition/rights.

tekla west

07-05-2006, 01:13 AM

It has been said that fortune favors the bold, so too, freedom lies in being bold. Ain't ever been no other way about it, ain't gonna ever be no other way neither. There is no smooth road, no easy walk. But to choose to do nothing just sucks. To to live, in fear, in loathing, in guilt and shame - (over what amounts in a lot of ways to just a fashion choice, yeesh) - hell, that's just degrading. And it degrades not just you, but everyone around you also.

For myself, I simply got to a point in my life where the choice was between withdrawing from the world - which I believe that most people do, choosing, in the words of the poet, to "lead lives of quite desperation" - or was I going to live, or try to live, attempt to live, the way I wanted to? I did not seek any sort of radical reordering of society, but simple dignity, strong courage, and a touch of humor. I only sought composure, compassion and reasonable safety. It seemed bold at first, but after a time it became routine. In a place like SF or NYC, where there are so many TG persons, the simple effect of having so many who were out has resulted in making it no big deal. You get enough people, you got a movement. Its that simple.

Besides, which of those goals and desires was over the line? Which are not the birthright of every human on the planet? Who among us is not entitled to dignity? Who should fear courage? Should we not all maintain composure and give compassion? Should we all not be able to walk down the street in safety?

OK, so your a bit different, but is not freedom almost always, and exclusively at that, precisely for those who think different, who act different, who are different? {ed. note here - your 'unique difference' is shared by at least a few million people. Different perhaps, unique, think again.} And freedom is a multiplier, so that as Marianne Williamson said "as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our fear, our presence automatically liberates others."

By the same token, when freedom is taken from one, does it not also end up begin taken from all? Is not violence against TGs not far from either violence against women or violence against gays? Ain't these the same people who wore sheets? Who liked to march and yell 'Sieg Heil!' Who loved a good lynching? Who beat their wife's? So if you step back, refuse to take a stand, are not your SOs, your daughters at greater risk?

Yes sure, you have much to lose. You might find that once its gone you might not miss it all that much. Besides, if you are hiding you have already lost it, you just don't know it yet. Nothing can be submerged, hidden, forever. Nature abhors secrets. They will be found out. And besides, its not all about you. Sorry. Its about us. And us is not just CDs, or TGs, but I believe all of us. Particularly now. "In this possibly terminal phase of human existence, democracy and freedom are more than just ideals to be valued - they may be essential to survival," as Noam Chomsky would remind us. So it goes beyond you and me. It goes beyond our kids, our jobs, or our pensions. We might lose all those things and more if change is not brought about.

You say 'I can not hurt these people.' Haven't you done that already? By lying to them, hiding from them a part of you that is real, that is deep, and that is important in some way. In not telling that little girl so long ago the truth you: a) sold her a bill of goods where the merch did not match the packing slip; and b) sold her short by assuming that she could not handle it. Gee whiz, no wonder she is a bit put off. Who wouldn't be?

So of course your SO does not / will not accept you. You don't accept yourself. You lied. You hid. You existed in shame. Who wants to accept that? Who wants to share in that?

Are you worried that people will not like you? Well, wake up and smell the coffee princess, they ALREADY don't like you. You just have not let them know it yet. Nor are you letting the people who might like you, who might accept you, who might even love you for who you really are (instead of what you are pretending to be) know who you are and groove on that.

Be strong in who you are, almost everyone will accept that. I've seen far to many examples of successful people living good lives with plenty of support and loving relationships in them to think any differently. Learn to like yourself, and others will follow.

Or you say you could lose your job. Lose your job? OK, there are other jobs, perhaps even better jobs. But trading your freedom and dignity for a handful of nickels and dimes? Respect? For what? Chump change? (PS a sister of mine transitioned as a VP of Bank of America in charge of home mortgages, so don't tell me it cant be done.)

And in each of these you give away bits of yourself. You become less, not more. Again, who really wants to be with someone who's life is a path of constant diminished expectations?

If you give away the little pieces of your self, sooner or later you ain't going to have a real self. Judy Garland told others to “Always be a first-rate version of yourself, instead of a second-rate version of somebody else.” To which I can only add that being what others want you to be is a third-rate existence at best, the effect of which renders you pretty much a fourth-rate person.

So I'm going to add the words of Sam Adams, patriot - and pretty good beer maker too - when he addressed those who would not join in the Revolution. "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

My sisters are on the street, in the cafes, at their jobs, riding the public transit. They are working with organizations, doing political lobbying, engaging in outreach. They are working to change things one law at a time, one person at a time, one day at a time. And if not today, well, "tomorrow is another day." And if need be, we are going to do it tomorrow. And the day after. And the day after that. We will try to use every tool we can. We will use the political system, the legal system, the judicial system, the court of public opinion. We will use art, mass media, books, poems, speeches, rock songs, and web sites. We will work with politicians, businessmen, social workers, and church persons. We are not going to back down. We are not going to give up. Surrender is not an option, and my closet is too full of clothes for me to ever fit back into it. So I'm not going. I'm working, I'm organizing, I'm writing, giving lectures, having conversations, and I'm out joining with my sisters. Its not huge, its just my part. Many hands make easier work.

Some ask why be so militant?

I find the words of Rabbi Sherwin Wine to be particularly true in this instance.

"There are two visions of America. One precedes our founding fathers and finds its roots in the harshness of our puritan past. It is very suspicious of freedom, uncomfortable with diversity, hostile to science, unfriendly to reason, contemptuous of personal autonomy. It sees America as a religious nation. It views patriotism as allegiance to God. It secretly adores coercion and conformity. Despite our constitution, despite the legacy of the Enlightenment, it appeals to millions of Americans and threatens our freedom.

The other vision finds its roots in the spirit of our founding revolution and in the leaders of this nation who embraced the age of reason. It loves freedom, encourages diversity, embraces science and affirms the dignity and rights of every individual. It sees America as a moral nation, neither completely religious nor completely secular. It defines patriotism as love of country and of the people who make it strong. It defends all citizens against unjust coercion and irrational conformity.

This second vision is our vision. It is the vision of a free society. We must be bold enough to proclaim it and strong enough to defend it against all its enemies."

Over my dead body does the first version win out, because if it does, it will be my dead body, and not in a manner of my own choosing & not by old age neither.

And its enemies are legion in our current age. We find all sorts of liberties on the wane. Freedom of speech is now more like watch what you say. Freedom from surveillance is all but erased. Phone records, banking records being collected and sifted through looking for who? For what? And through all this, violence against those deemed more marginal is on the rise again. Who will be the next name on Ms.Smith's web site. Who gets to be the next Lifetime movie by winding up like Gwen?

We are in a process. It has been long evolving. In the 60s there were one or two. In the 70s a few more. By the late 80s there were enough to begin to address the wrongs. By the 90s laws were being written, and unwritten. Now in the new century there is a whole bunch of us. Out, about, working, living, loving, laughing, and crying in the open, in public, just like everyone else.

"And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink wherever you are, just walk in say "Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.". And walk out. You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and they won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them. And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement."

And it is a movement. And its moving. Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way, the boys would say, but I think its more like old Arlo was thinking, about a bunch of people doing it day in and day out. The basic structures for change are in place. They are few, and they are underfunded, but there are organizations, associations and groups doing the academic research and writing. There are people doing the legal stuff, there are people doing political organizing and educational outreach, and others who are doing inter-TG outreach, trying to gather the greater whole of us together. Great strides, many of which were unimaginable 15 years ago have been made in many areas. We have won a few legal battles and precedents are being set. We have won many political battles on local levels, and are working toward state victories now. Its not all locals, certainly not all states. But its a start.

Its beyond transition and more akin to transcendence. Its about becoming transparent. I'm talking about reaching higher states of consciousness. This is not about REVOLUTION, as much as I feel its about EVOLUTION. If the first must happen for the second to occur, then so be it, but I don't think it does. Our opponents are cowards. They are believers in some mumbo-jumbo voodoo made up by people a couple of thousand of years ago who were wandering in the desert and had obviously been out in the sun WAY TOO LONG. (that's Judo/Christian/Islamic nonsense, just so no one misunderstands me. - and hey, not to worry, they are REAL busy killing each other off these days - our superstition is better than your superstition, nay nay nay nay nay.) Given the light of reason and enlightenment ( i.e. Science), these values scurry like cockroaches when the lights are turned on in a tenement slum. This is part of the great pattern of human evolution, where civilization is a direct result of the feminine nature, not the masculine dominance. Where the basic survival of our species is dependent on female centered values of nurture, of cooperation, of harmony, of domestication, and where the basic survival of our species is threatened by the testosterone soaked values of war, greed, and competition. We are the last best hope of humanity, the last chance of survival. Let's act like it.

You know girls - at least the American ones - REVOLUTION IS YOUR BIRTHRIGHT, live up to it, while you still got a life to live. Its sure more than Gwen or any of the other names on that list have.

Here on this day - of all days - when we are celebrating our right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" - which seems to me to fit us perfectly - let us recall the words of Patrick Henry: "Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!"

Our sisters have died, and are dying. All I want is the ability for all of us to live as we are in peace, liberty, love and happiness. If that ain't worth fighting for, what it?

VeronicaMoonlit

07-05-2006, 02:05 AM

tekla, that was simply beautiful. Thank you.

Veronica
Rondelle (Ron) Rogers Jr.

CaptLex

07-05-2006, 08:44 AM

Our sisters have died, and are dying. All I want is the ability for all of us to live as we are in peace, liberty, love and happiness. If that ain't worth fighting for, what it?
Well said, Tekla, but I'd like to add the word "brothers" to your sentence above. Our sisters and brothers have died . . . don't forget Brandon Teena (among others). Live free or die! :thumbsup:

BethGG

07-05-2006, 09:47 AM

I didn't read the whole thread but I know one thing that I think is a real big help in furthering the CD cause is GNO(Girls Night Out), which I think right now is just a New England(in the US) thing? There's GNO's in several states, and it's T-girls(and SO's if they choose) who go out and go to bars/clubs and have fun in a group setting(the idea that being in a group is safe). Tgirl74 and I have been several times(the one in our state and in the state below us). I think it's great to have visability :) Because honestly, most people don't really even know that CD'ing exists! I know I didn't. I mean I knew there was such a thing as drag queens, and I knew there were transexuals, but never really saw many. So I think having visability just in itself is a HUGE step.

Melanie R

07-05-2006, 10:18 AM

In Houston we have had Girls Night Out (we call Elegant Ladies Night Out) 4-6 times each year for over 10 years. Most are couples who go to upscale restaurants, theatres, clubs. This Saturday night we are going to Magic Island, for a four course dinner, magic shows, blackjack and dancing. Our girls all look so good that all are accepted and given the red carpet treatment.

Hugs,

Melanie

Ms. Donna

07-05-2006, 10:57 AM

Hi Tekla,

Beautiful, eloquent... The closest thing I think we have ever had to a manifesto.

And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in singing a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.

Great reference. :thumbsup: It illustrates that it's not a few people making grand gestures - it's many people doing small things.

If we all did our own small part to raise awareness, imagine what we could achieve...

Thank you so much for this!

Love & Stuff,
Donna

SherryLynn GG

07-05-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimberley
I am out to my wife. Her approach is if you are going to pursue that lifestyle, I am gone; with the house, the cars, the pensions all of it. So, I am supposed to come out of the closet and march in the streets? I am supposed to toss away 35 years of hard work for an ideal? GET A GRIP!!!

Quote:
Yeah, therein lies the problem, and the point, really. What we want is that attitudes change so that doesn't happen IN THE FUTURE. That requires effort in the here and now, and that obviously isn't desirable for those, like you, who'd lose everything so the next generation didn't lose everything

I am very new here but I just read thru this whole thread and I wanted to comment on these 2 things above...when someone stated that if they pursued their lifestyle they would lose everything, the next person says well thats why we need to change so that attitudes will change and this wont happen in the future....All I want to say is this...regardless of what is changed and what laws are changed people will still have their own opinions and attitudes about CDing or whatever the case may be, just because its in the law books doesnt mean it has to be accepted by your wife/gf or whoever. Personally I accept my husband 100% BUT when we do have children we will NOT tell them no matter what laws have changed or movements brought about. Our families will NEVER know no matter what changes in the world. This is something that we are keeping private and have no desire for everyone in our lives to know. Because like I said a minute ago no matter how many things change in the world people still have their own opinions. Take for instance same sex marriages, they are legal in some states, but that doesnt mean everyone approves right? interracial marriages are legal but that doesnt mean everyone approves....Just because something is legal or is allowed in a work environment doesnt mean everyone has to accept it and live with it. Thats just my 0.02 and im not trying to offend anyone but I just think when thinking of doing something like this everyone has to be thought about not just yourself

tekla west

07-05-2006, 02:41 PM

First - to Captain Lex, you are right, a HUGE oversight on my part, I will correct it in the next rewrite.

And, I don't care if they 'like' it. They might vote republican and I sure don't like that, still its within their rights. And that's all I seek is basic rights.

And the deal about the movement is simple, enough people make change happen. If 50 people a day walked into a store, and the clerk refused to serve them because they were "uncomfortable" with the idea, how long before the manager tells them that they are in business for money, not comfort?

I remember well, and try to hold it in my mind at all times, what a boss of mine once said when I was standing there in a club way back in the 80s listening to some bad hair band from LA and said "This band sucks." He gently turned to me and said "This band sold-out, you can listen to music you like on your own time."

Kimberly

07-05-2006, 06:32 PM

I was just thinking about all of this... and a phrase by CaptLex rang home.

Live free or die!

If I can't express who I want to be, if I can't live how I want to live... If I can't be what I want to be, then I don't want it at all.

I value life so so much, but I just want to be able to express who I am and express that openly... We all have a finite time on this planet. It haunts me, that feeling. But if I can't have any of that, then I don't want anything.