Double Standard (not exactly that one)

[Marla S]

Just had a little argument with my ex and didn't get an answer from her so maybe you can help me.

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

If you translate her style to a M2F CD this counterpart probably would wear some comfortable pumps, hose, jeans or a classy skirt, blouse, but no breast forms, no wig, a very unobstrusive makeover, if any.

Question ?

What is the objective reason that the M2F CD would be fired (I think we can be sure about it), while the F2M is not ?

As I said, I didn't get an answer.
(I guess there is non)

Maybe you can help.


2.) Another provocive question I didn't get an answer.

In Iran I probably would be stoned to death for me being a CD. Luckily I live in a "progressive" country and get mocked only or loose my job.

The penalty is different, but aren't the underlying "motives" similar (same) ?

[Kate Simmons]

Yes Marla but it's the price we have to be willing to pay to be ourselves. Believe me, I know. Ericka

[Joy Carter]

Motchosity and sex are the two reasons in my view ! Motchosity is that a word ? :D

[Tamara Croft]

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses)You don't get it do you, a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender. Just because this woman is wearing non fem style clothing, does NOT make her a FTM CD. Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?

I'll be sure to pass on the new criteria for being a FTM to the GG's for you and let our FTM's know too, just incase they are doing it wrong - non fem clothes, shoes, probably short hair and glasses.... well, that probably fits half the population of women... jeez...... thanks for that, I'm sure the GG's will thank you for correcting them. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Marla S]

Tamara, sorry to say but I think you don't get it. I am well aware of the double standard discussions. They are wrong and boring if shortened to man = trousers and girls = skirts but that is not what I have written.
(But I expected an answer like this by someone. Seems to be kind of a reflex.)


... a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender.
I havn't been present when she bought her clothes, so I don't know if they were bought in the male or female department. And it doesn't matter. If I would wear her outfit (either labled male or female clothes) nobody would doubt that I am a straight man without any gender issues and I would be entirely wrong on this forum.
I don't try to hide my gender, as I don't want to have a wig, don't want to have breast forms, as i don't like any prothesis to shape my male body into a more female one (I try to work with what mother nature gave me, though I might need a wig someday as I feel uncomfortable with my male baldness independent if I am in "male or female mode"). According to your defintion this seems to disqualify me as a CD. Not sure If I am happy about it, because this either shows the goal to reach or, sorry to say, a double standard.

As for the clothes etc. ok, skirts and shoes lingerie I only get in the female department, but shaving cream, some makeup, some nice tops and even pentyhose I could buy meanwhile with the lable "for man". Nevertheless I buy it in the female department: less expensive, easier to get, bigger variety.


Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?
Did it not occur to you that you don't have to look masculine to achieve this ?

I'll try to get a photo if I dare to take one, maybe it becomes more clear what I mean then.

Meanwhile we could take Marlene Dietrich as an example:
http://www.leninimports.com/marlene_dietrich_gallery_4.jpg
http://farine.homestead.com/files/marlene.gif
I'd consider this crossdressing and i would definetly be labled like this if I'd presented myself like this (http://www.moderntimes.com/palace/30_image/angel.jpg) (without breastforms and wig)

Double standard ?

[DanaJ]

... but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).
You say non-feminine - what is your definition of "feminine" here? I have seen lots of clothes and shoes made for females that are not overly "feminine" i.e. "girly", but they are still women's clothes. Do all feminine shoes have heels in your opinion? Are these shoes she is wearing flats, so they are "non-feminine"?

What I am saying is that we all have our own definition of what is "feminine".... maybe your definition is different from hers.......

[Rickie]

I'm sorry MarlaS my reading skills aren't all that good. I didn't see your question about if she is or isn't feminine. I thought you wanted to know if we thought theres was a double standard. And there would be if there were.

Rickie:hugs:

[Butterfly Bill]

Motchosity and sex are the two reasons in my view ! Motchosity is that a word ? :D

If what you are looking for is the state of being macho ("male" in Spanish), the noun is machismo.

[Marla S]

You say non-feminine - what is your definition of "feminine" here?
Kind of like I said above: If I would wear this outfit, haircut, glasses I would be considered rather a masculine man than an average one . I said feminie to indicate that she didn't bind her breast and therefore didn't hide her gender.

[GypsyKaren]

You say non-feminine - what is your definition of "feminine" here? I have seen lots of clothes and shoes made for females that are not overly "feminine" i.e. "girly", but they are still women's clothes. Do all feminine shoes have heels in your opinion? Are these shoes she is wearing flats, so they are "non-feminine"?

What I am saying is that we all have our own definition of what is "feminine".... maybe your definition is different from hers.......

So true, so true. You know, Kat likes short hair, doesn't wear much makeup, hates skirts, and is addicted to wearing men's Hawaiin shirts. She looks more feminine on her worse day than any tranny on their best, and she always blows me away with her beauty and sexiness. Many women like to dress for comfort, it doesn't mean anything, so get over it.

Karen

[Butterfly Bill]

Starting from their premise that masculine = strong while feminine = weak, and the second one that strong is better than weak, they conclude that for a woman to emulate masculinity is better than for a man to emulate femininity, even tho both may in general not be good. A man who is feminine and weak is deserving of the attacks of those who are masculine and strong, because bad examples like that must not be allowed to exist and possibly corrupt the strong.

All this is logical, but the weakness lies in the truth of the individual premises. Yes, a tomboy doesn't have anywhere near as much trouble as a sissy. But women who dress masculine are frequently suspected of being lesbians.

[DanaJ]

Yes, we posted at the exact same time, so I did not see your post giving more info when I posted......

I guess it would be hard to say without seeing what kind of haircut and glasses and shoes she has on. And correct me if I am wrong, but although Marlene Dietrich wore "men's" clothes, weren't they still tailored to fit her feminine frame?

[Jennaie]

"I would not feel so all alone, everybody must get stoned". :rolleyes:

[Marla S]

And correct me if I am wrong, but although Marlene Dietrich wore "men's" clothes, weren't they still tailored to fit her feminine frame?
What exactly you would have to tailor at a skirt or pentyhose to fit our masculine frame.

High heels for large feet are tailored to fit our masculine feet. Does this make you less of a CD if you wear them ?

[DanaJ]

What exactly you would have to tailor at a skirt or pentyhose to fit our masculine frame.

High heels for large feet are tailored to fit our masculine feet. Does this make you less of a CD if you wear them ?Actually, large sized high heels are tailored for women with large feet, it is a blessing to us that we can wear them.

Listen, no one here is telling you to not CD at work - why don't you start off small (which you are probably already doing), and work your way up until you are into full-femme mode?

Have you actually tried dressing en femme at work before, and got in some sort of touble? Or are these questions rhetorical or what-if scenerios?

[Marcia-B]

I dont know about Cds but transexuals are accepted in Iran.The ayatollahs are in favour of it as there is nothing in the Koran against changing sex.

[Sandygal]

Is this the question your trying to ask. Are FTM less likely to be fired than a MTF? I would believe so. Everyone here agrees that a woman is allowed to dress down with more male style clothes to be comfortable. But maybe a crossdresser dresses up in female style clothes to be more comfortable. Maybe if someone says to you "Hey, your a guy wearing a skirt" you can answer" I'm just trying to be more comfortable". Isn't that how woman made it ok to dress down?

[Amelie]

I think I know what Marla is saying. Even if a dress or a skirt were tailored for a man and even if this man never wore breast forms or added anything to his body to create a female image. This man would still have a tougher time in life than a female who wore male style clothes.
If a female wore men's tailoered pants and shirts, she still would not be hasseled as much as a man who wore a dress tailored to fit his body.

Every one here can argue this topic till the cows come home, but if things were trully equal, one would see more men in dresses than they already do. One can see many women dressed in men's style clothes but rarely does one see a man in a dress, sort of like Buffalo Bill on this forum. How many times does one see someone like Bill out and about.

[Marla S]

Actually, large sized high heels are tailored for women with large feet, it is a blessing to us that we can wear them.
That is the most common view and I think it is only partly true. One may ask why the larger the size the less variety, the higher the heels and the more you are forced to buy them from erotic- or fetish-shops.
I don't believe that tall women are more "fetish prone" than smaller ones, and pumps are pumps. They are defined by their shape and not their size.




Listen, no one here is telling you to not CD at work - why don't you start off small (which you are probably already doing), and work your way up until you are into full-femme mode?

Have you actually tried dressing en femme at work before, and got in some sort of touble? Or are these questions rhetorical or what-if scenerios?
Though a bit off topic let me tell you a bit about the background of this thread and maybe some following.

I have lost my job a few weeks ago (not related to CD), lost my SO a few days ago (in parts related to CD) have to find a new flat ( choise may be influenced by my CDing), have to find a new job (it could be heavily effected by my CDing), would like to find someone to love again (will be heavily effected by my CDing).
That's all not very funny but bears the great opportunity to start from the scratch. :cheer:
Thanks to this forum I now know that there is nothing wrong with me - after over three decades struggeling. Emotionally I didn't feel better in years (if ever) and feel to be close to myself, because I realized that CDing is no disease but it may make you sick and lonely because of the social repressions or the fear of getting social repressions.
As I don't want to deny myself anymore but can't change the society and their views (necesarrily inherent part of myself too), I have to find the balance between these two poles. I have to learn when there is a risk to get painfull social repression and when it is only the fear to get them. I like to be prepared if I get negative reactions and I like to learn when it is time to accept them if I would have to deny myself.
Like Julie Avery said in some thread:

Never force that on anyone, but never deny it
(Not forcing doesn't mean not showing, IMO)
To achieve this it is still necessary to make some things clear or to form an oppinion and to learn to distinguish between situations one really has to fear and those one only thinks they are terrible. And, very important for a hypothetic relationship too, I need arguments and questions and to build up a self-assuredness I never really had but probably will need to have.

Back to the topic:
On this way it is IMO important to sucrinize some common views and phrases.
As the argument with my ex and Tamara's reply showed it seems to be necessary, because there are views that might be questionabel even if they seam to be quite obvious and accepted at a first glance. And there might be some paralells that only at a first glance are totally out of scope (Iran thing).
As a CD that is not going to fully emulate a women I think I have to take care not to run into clichés from both extrems: You wear a skirt --> you are a CD; you wear no breast forms --> you're not a CD.

If I am right or wrong, I don't know. But that's why I am asking and try to learn.


P.S:
Just another heretical question comes to mind:
Women dressing for comfort --> ok, no CDing
Men dressing for beauty --> not ok, CDing ??????????????????

[Marla S]

Is this the question your trying to ask. Are FTM less likely to be fired than a MTF? I would believe so. Yes, it is not hard to imagine that he will be fired and I like to pin down the justification.

To make one thing clear, I have neither the intention to bash the GGs nor I want to blame them for our situation.


Maybe if someone says to you "Hey, your a guy wearing a skirt" you can answer" I'm just trying to be more comfortable". Isn't that how woman made it ok to dress down?

Yes the comfort argument is a lame one IMO, but I believed it too because it was mentioned so often and seems to be right at a first glance.
The real difference would be the attitude towards a particular clothing style and that's not defined by trousers or not.


@Amelie: Couldn't have said it better :hugs:

[Ms. Donna]

Question ?

What is the objective reason that the M2F CD would be fired (I think we can be sure about it), while the F2M is not ?

This is a really confusing thread and seems to be talking about several different things for different reasons. I'm going to try and address your question above.

It is not clear from observation alone that the salesperson:
was crossdressed
has gender issues
was born female

All the above are assumptions on your part.

As a rule, we seem to define 'crossdressing' as not simply wearing clothing intended for the 'opposite' (ugh!) gender - but that there is an intent behind it: the intent to pass as, emulate or otherwise express some aspect of our persona as it relates to that gender which would otherwise wear said clothing. In this case, there is no clear 'intent' described - only her presentation: not enough to draw a conclusion.

What is also an unknown is what the corporate dress code is at the department store. If her attire was in compliance therewith, then there is no case of 'double-standard' here - she was simply taking advantage of the options available to her.

Now, to your question.

There is a greater likelyhood that a crossdressed male will encounter more problems that a crossdressed female - but this of course all depends on to what extent one is crossdressed. I can crossdress completely - undies, trousers, shirt, socks, shoes, jewlery - and still acceptably pass as a 'man'. Am I crossdressed? I suppose in this case it's all a matter of perspective: to me I am - to those reading me as a man - I'm not. Now, if I substitute some capris and pumps - it becomes a different story. :)

Yes, women - as a rule - have greater lattitude with regards to dressing. They have to really push it before they are considered 'masculine' or 'manly'. With less lattitude on their side, men don't have to push too much before becoming 'effeminate'.

As for as being fired, I'm sure that in general as a man if you showed up for work in a dress, there is a good chance of that. But in a more corporate environment, 'cause' will be based on violation of HR policy and creating a disruptive work environment - not on your 'dress' specifically: unless of course it's a really awful dress. :D

However, that need not be the case. I slowly eased into dressing more and more 'feminine' at work - pushing the envelope of the dress code - and had no problems. Then, in order to ensure there wouldn't be any problems, I sat down with HR and came clean to them. I explained my situation and that I wanted to be allowed (yes, I was asking permission) to follow the woman's dress code (business casual - no skirts/dresses). They're answer was positive, so I now dress as me without fear of repercussion. Also, as Gender Expression is included in our firm's EEO policy, I'm pretty well covered from complaints for others (none to date).

For all we know, your saleslady may have a similar arrangement.

Just 'showing up' to work as a woman (or man as the case may be) amounts to a stunt - and employers don't like stunts. We can, however, 'be who we are' at work if we are willing to do some work and be upfront with people.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Marla S]

It is not clear from observation alone that the salesperson:
was crossdressed
has gender issues
was born female

All the above are assumptions on your part.
That is not the question. The question is how the society sees you and with which lable, and all its connotations, you get stamped and which consequences you have to face because of it, and most important why.
This lady might have lost a bet, she might bind her breast during leasure time or it might even have been a boy with feminine figure and face (would be possible, though unlikely). That doesn't matter here.
A customer barely will ask her if she is dressed like this for comfort or because she has gender issues and lable her afterwards.

Dress code: There seems to be no particular dresscode in the department store. You will find almost any style (except M2F CD of course ;).)

[DanaJ]

Marla - have you thought about just asking her why she dresses this way?

[Tamara Croft]

Yes the comfort argument is a lame one IMO, but I believed it too because it was mentioned so often and seems to be right at a first glance.How is it lame, it's actually more logical. If a person is on their feet all day working, they are hardly going to be in a nice skirt, top and heels are they? And I really don't think a MTF ts/cd would do it either, you might think this is something you could do, but lets be realistic, this is something you don't do, so can't say the comfort excuse is lame, you saying it's lame is lame :thumbsdn:

And I didn't get anything wrong, you labelled her a FTM cd because of how she dresses, that was the bit I was addressing, not any of your questions.

[GypsyKaren]

You know, I'll consider the argument that women who dress for comfort are crossdressing if I ever, ever, once in my life hear it from a non CDer.

[~Kitty GG~]

I'll take a stab at this..

Yes it is a double standard. But.. In the future men may win the rights to wear dresses.. and in the past women didn't have the right to wear trousers or own property.. and they were considered useless if they weren't married and producing children. The double standards that women faced back then changed. The double standards that men face now can be changed as well.


1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

If you translate her style to a M2F CD this counterpart probably would wear some comfortable pumps, hose, jeans or a classy skirt, blouse, but no breast forms, no wig, a very unobstrusive makeover, if any.



The clothing that the saleswoman was wearing compares to the clothing that you will see in a cross section of women in most public areas. But the M2F CD counterpart that you describe is not wearing something you will see in a cross section of men in most public areas. And so is not comparable.

Now if the CD were less obtrusive and wore women's track shoes, casual pants from the women's department, women's sox, a casual women's top that didn't scream girly.. plus no forms, wig, or makeup. Then yes, this would still be CDing and would not cause a man to lose his job. .. unless that job required a specific dress code.

Should the double standard be changed? absolutely.
Will change happen if enough people complain about women wearing what they want? no.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[Priss]

Just had a little argument with my ex and didn't get an answer from her so maybe you can help me.

1.) Story:
In our department store works a saleslady I would call a F2M CD.
She doesnt hide her gender entirely (no breast binding, no glued on moustache etc.) but it is prity obvious that she goes for an extremly non-feminine style (clothes, shoes, haircut, glasses).

If you translate her style to a M2F CD this counterpart probably would wear some comfortable pumps, hose, jeans or a classy skirt, blouse, but no breast forms, no wig, a very unobstrusive makeover, if any.

Question ?

What is the objective reason that the M2F CD would be fired (I think we can be sure about it), while the F2M is not ?

As I said, I didn't get an answer.
(I guess there is non)

Maybe you can help.


2.) Another provocive question I didn't get an answer.

In Iran I probably would be stoned to death for me being a CD. Luckily I live in a "progressive" country and get mocked only or loose my job.

The penalty is different, but aren't the underlying "motives" similar (same) ?

I'd have to say that it's just the way that our society here works... We're a male dominated society, even if we have made some strides. Ie, lesbians are fairly well tolerated while gay men are shunned. Women are allowed to look as masculine as they desire, while the opposite is not true for men. Women are still considered whether or not it's actually true, to be the weaker sex even if they are equal to men. We tolerate the not being totally enfemme, because of the strides we have made.

Something else to be aware of is that in some jobs, it's not really a good thing to be totally enfemme for anyone. I have worked with a lot of women who even though they could have and occasionally did, were rarely enfemme. To tell you the truth, in such a situation anyone who was enfemme all the time, would stick out loudly.

For your second question, I'd say it is the same motives. It's just that our society doesn't tolerate that level of violence. That doesn't mean that it doesn't happen here too... http://www.gender.org/remember/index.html#

[Marla S]

There is a greater likelyhood that a crossdressed male will encounter more problems that a crossdressed female - but this of course all depends on to what extent one is crossdressed. I can crossdress completely - undies, trousers, shirt, socks, shoes, jewlery - and still acceptably pass as a 'man'. Am I crossdressed? Agreed, but change a single peace of cloth to a stereotypical one (high heels, stockings, skirt) and I think it is likely that you will be seen less as a fashion freak and turn more to a pervert in the eyes of the society (you and your motives will stay the same).
Same question: What is the justification ?

I am becoming cautious with the term CD lately ;)


Yes, women - as a rule - have greater lattitude with regards to dressing. They have to really push it before they are considered 'masculine' or 'manly'. With less lattitude on their side, men don't have to push too much before becoming 'effeminate'.
Double standard or not ? Why ?


As for as being fired, I'm sure that in general as a man if you showed up for work in a dress, there is a good chance of that. But in a more corporate environment, 'cause' will be based on violation of HR policy and creating a disruptive work environment - not on your 'dress' specifically: unless of course it's a really awful dress. :D
Again, we seem to agree that it is likely that he will be fired but thats not the question.
Again: What it is the justification that makes him different from her. ?

I am drilling on that because the longer I don't get an answer, I have to assume there is non. And if there is non I am slowly becoming really angry, because I was made feel miserable for 35 years and will have to face problems in the future for NO REASON.

I FEEL CHEATED

[Bev06 GG]

I think I know what Marla is saying. Even if a dress or a skirt were tailored for a man and even if this man never wore breast forms or added anything to his body to create a female image. This man would still have a tougher time in life than a female who wore male style clothes.
If a female wore men's tailoered pants and shirts, she still would not be hasseled as much as a man who wore a dress tailored to fit his body.

Every one here can argue this topic till the cows come home, but if things were trully equal, one would see more men in dresses than they already do. .
So true Amelie, and I dont think any of us could argue that point. However, life is full of unfairness and inequality. I get just as angry at the unfairness of unequal pay for men and women, which in our part of the country goes on all the time. Guess weve just got to live with it and quit moaning or quit doing the things that give rise to the unfairness. For sure things aren't going to change for a while yet so guess were stuck with it whether we're a crossdressing male or an underpaid female.
BEVxxxx

[Marla S]

Marla - have you thought about just asking her why she dresses this way?


And I didn't get anything wrong, you labelled her a FTM cd because of how she dresses, that was the bit I was addressing, not any of your questions.

Take a label you want. Fact is that you will face unjustified problems.

And to say it in a harsh way: A TS isn't asked why and given time for argueing before she is getting trashed by rednecks.

To say it more moderate as above: The society that lables you, the one that laughs at you, your boss that fires you etc. usually don't ask. They just do, and that obviously depending on the gender.
I don't have to ask as I would be glad to see both of them, don't caring about their motives and the labels.

@comfortable shoes and lame argument

http://www.bsf-doehle.de/shop/produkt_images/100000241_gross.jpg
http://www.bsf-doehle.de/shop/produkt_images/100000432_gross.jpg

Both comfortable (specially made for long time standing and walking around hole the day). What is the difference ?

[Connieminiskirts]

Marla I do think I understand your orignal question, and YES I do agree that in many cases, especially in the area of customer service, a M2F cd would be unemployed before an M2F. I dont say it fair or right, it just is!

Customer's, ie, PEOPLE would object to the M2F and not so much to the F2M Its not neccesarily right but its how human nature is. ANd since People=customer's, which inturn=Profits, managers have to listen at some point.

Now to add a little fuel to the already glowing fire here.

You stated that she was "Obvioulsy an F2M" because of what she wore and how she appeared. as a result of THAT statement I do need to ask a question!

Q! Are all females who dress "down" F2M cd?
If the answer to this is YES then boy howdy do I have a lot of "ammo" for my own family!
Lets see, that would make my 5 sisters, all there daughters, and daughters in law,(way to many to count) My OWN 4 daughters, my 2 daughters in law, and all my grandaughters, (who range in age from 6months to 16yrs), as well as my Aunts, female cousins, pretty much every famale I now know or ever will know, as well as my Wives, past and present, ALL CROSSDRESSERS!!!

Kinda makes on wonder "Why do all the millions of F2M's get so damned mad at us M2f"s??

Boy just wait unitl I tell my oldest daughter she's a "crossdresser!!" The "poopoo is gonna hit the airhandling device" in a BIG way!!! ROFLMAO

Okay thats my response go ahead throw it at me, i aint even gonna duck!

[Marla S]

Q! Are all females who dress "down" F2M cd?
Maybe it is because my mothertongue is not English and therefore I have problems to express things clearly.
Short answer: NO, NO, and NO.
Answer: NO. NO because I don't consider a woman in trousers as dressed down and NO I don't consider dressing down as equal to crossdressing.

The girl I am talking about was dressed and styled in a very accurate and tastefull way, that I would label masculine or extreme non-feminine.

"Dressing down" might be an expression of bad taste that is easily achieved by dolling up too.
In general I consider the usage of this term here as kind of sexsistic against women, as I consider it as sexistic against women to laugh about a man in skirt or hose, independent if it is laughed by men or women (but that's a different story).

[CaptLex]

Again: What it is the justification that makes him different from her. ?

I am drilling on that because the longer I don't get an answer, I have to assume there is non. And if there is non I am slowly becoming really angry, because I was made feel miserable for 35 years and will have to face problems in the future for NO REASON.
I FEEL CHEATED
You're looking for justification? A (good) reason? There is none. Life is not fair. There will always be something somewhere that someone can complain about not being fair in their lives based on anything at all: race, color, creed, gender, nationality, sexual orientation . . . you get the picture. For every MtF crossdresser who is unhappy about not being able to dress as he wishes whenever and wherever he wishes, there will be another person who is unhappy about the unlucky breaks in his or her life.

That's life, hon. You may want to trade places with someone who you feel gets away with things you can't, but I bet you I can find someone else who would be happy to trade places with you. :peace:

[Marla S]

Thanks a lot CaptLex.

That's kind of what I have feared to hear, but it is more easy to withstand and deal with resistances that are not founded on any reason then to accuse oneself for the resistences. That's more healthy and makes things easier. A push for the self-assuredness :happy:

Thanks a lot ~Kitty GG~, I really appreciate your post.:love:

Thanks a lot Priss: I feel understood :happy:, and I liked to add something ... but maybe later .. don't feal prepared to get stoned right now ;)

[Amelie]

So true Amelie, and I dont think any of us could argue that point. However, life is full of unfairness and inequality. I get just as angry at the unfairness of unequal pay for men and women, which in our part of the country goes on all the time. Guess weve just got to live with it and quit moaning or quit doing the things that give rise to the unfairness. For sure things aren't going to change for a while yet so guess were stuck with it whether we're a crossdressing male or an underpaid female.
BEVxxxx

I agree, but Marla's thread was about the subject that I answered, it wasn't about all the unfairness of the world. The thread was talking about male and female and the clothes that they wear.

It's just that some here don't see that there is an unfainess, when it comes to what certain people can wear and others can't.

[Julie Avery]

I'm not clear why a protest against discrimination against mtf CD's should include a dig at ftm CD's.

We mtf's really need to become man enough (pardon the expression) to stand up to our critics without feeling a need to drag down ftm's, gays, and bisexuals, which we do all too often.

- Doug

[Marla S]

I'm not clear why a protest against discrimination against mtf CD's should include a dig at ftm CD's.
I am not sure if I get you right, but I am not going to dig anyone except for reasons of the situation we are faced by the society in order to know against what I/we have to stand up (or not, if hopeless).
*masuline mode on* You have to know your enemy to fight him. Reconnaissance is one of the most important tasks in a battle *masculine mode off*

I am well aware that F2Ms sooner or later face similar problems. Nevertheless it seems different at certain points.*scientific mode on* Differences in similar situations are always a good hint on underlying mechanisms and these are the ones to dig for. *scientific mode off*

[Julie Avery]

I'm not sure what science has to do with the matter at hand.

People who find themselves at the bottom of the pecking order typically try to drag someone who's next to the bottom down underneath them, rather than making common cause against those at the top of the pecking order. It's a big part of how things stay the same, in the long view. And it's a shame.

I know a thing or two about science, but as I said, I don't see the relevance of science to this discussion.

Doug

[Marla S]

@Julie
Hm. :straightface:
Ok I can assure you that
I Do not want to drag anyone underneth or behind me, just not my style and a reason that I didn't succeed in business, btw.

If you would have read the posts carefully I always referd to how the society sees us and why. It is not my foult that there are different views and it is not my fault that these view seems to be cemented even in this community. I only wanted to know why this view is different and what's the justification.
From my point of view it doesn't matter if this girl was a "CD" or not or should be labled this way. I salute her if she feels comfortable with the style she has choosen to express herself and I am happy for the GGs that they successfully fought for a wider range of options to be themselves without being stamped.

What I have learned so far is that I shouldn't accept the lable CD anymore, because it is forced onto me by the society, that is to educate.

@Science: Cause and action.
You need to know what is what to make the maschine running, but sometimes the cause is labeld action or the other way round.

[Julie Avery]

Marla S, we're on the same team, and I know that you have a very sophisticated understanding of who we are and what we're about. I'm just saying that my sense of how we go about what we both agree (I think) is our business is that we ought to try not to cast other unjustly disapproved-of groups in a bad light, ever. Sometimes, in order to live up to that standard, it's necessary to be careful how I frame arguments. That's all I'm saying.

Doug

[Marla S]

:hugs:

[Julie Avery]

:^5:

[Maria D]

Tamara said 'You don't get it do you, a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender.'
Whilst I get the gist of your point, and pretty much agree, that's only in the same way someone would say 'but a MTF CD WOULD shave their beard' and Butterfly Bill is a counterpoint to that.

GypsyKaren said 'I'll consider the argument that women who dress for comfort are crossdressing if I ever, ever, once in my life hear it from a non CDer.' Well, I'd wheel my Gran in here if I could but she went bananas after my Grandad died and is 'living' with my parents. She only remembers me as a 6 year old now. Anyway, I never once saw her in a skirt, and she had 'views' on women who wore trousers, including both her daughters. That's my 4D point; the main difference between women in trousers and men in dresses is time. Of course, there's CDing 'for CDing' and 'CDing for other reasons like comfort or convienience', and the latter was done by women long enough to become not CDing. If you really want to be a man wearing dresses, do it, as women did, until it's not an issue any more. they braved it.

The difference, I think is CDing and identifying as the opposite sex, and CDing while still being your normal self. My fiancee wears trousers and is a woman, because she identifies as such. An FTM does not identify as a woman.
Assuming that a butch woman is a FTM CD is the same as assuming that a camp man is an MTF CD.

Oh, and flat shoes for comfort: have you tried standing for an 8 hour day in heels? I've had my toenails bleed in flats let alone heels, do you think I want to be crippled? ;)

[Rickie]

"If you would have read the posts carefully I always referd to how the society sees us and why. It is not my foult that there are different views and it is not my fault that these view seems to be cemented even in this community. I only wanted to know why this view is different and what's the justification."

I think the reason you can't get a understandable answer here. Is because your asking the wrong people. You need to ask the ones who would this thing that has you so fired up.

And God knows the world isn't fair.

Rickie :hugs:

[Marla S]

Oh, and flat shoes for comfort: have you tried standing for an 8 hour day in heels? I've had my toenails bleed in flats let alone heels, do you think I want to be crippled? ;)

IMO there is to much cliché in this statement. Did you ever consider that M2F is possible without heels ? Someone who likes to wear flats like this (http://www.zappos.com/images/718/7185844/3832-250911-p.jpg) obviously couldn't be a CD. I would be one, but I am disqulified as CD anyway because I don't wear breast forms.
I think I am just me. (my two cents for the phrases box)

[az_azeel]

[QDress code: There seems to be no particular dresscode in the department store. You will find almost any style (except M2F CD of course ;).)[/QUOTE]
I think you are so lost...
Its easy for a girl to to wear mens clothes... and think nothing of it...yet men think she is cross dressing... If the roles were reversed then it would be defininte......

[Maria D]

Er, I think you have not understood Marla. Cliche? No, quite simply it hurts to stand for a long time in heels. OF COURSE I know that 'MTF is possible without heels', that's my point. My point is that I wear flats most days.
Ok?

[Marla S]

Maria
Sorry, I am German
:hugs:

[Maria D]

Maria
Sorry, I am German
:hugs:
No worries, I understand the difficulties in using a second language :hugs:

[Tamara Croft]

but I am disqulified as CD anyway because I don't wear breast forms.This isn't true, crossdressing is wearing the opposite sex's clothes, it has nothing to do with breastforms. Why would you think that because you don't wear breastforms, this doesn't make you a CD? My partner doesn't wear them, but that doesn't make him less of a CD than those that wear them. Tell me something, what kind of things do you wear?

[Marla S]

To answer this first:

Tell me something, what kind of things do you wear?
Well, right know I am wearing a blue white striped girls top (T-shirt type), white panties, beige hose, dark blue girl's shorts and black gymnastic shoes (they are my slippers and I wear them instead of heels at home, for comfort ;) ). Colorless nail polish: hands; White/silver nail polish feet. Not in the mood for jewelry today.
I will add some mascara only and minimum eye shadow, after I posted this, because I have to leave the closet to buy some food and have some coffee somewhere. I'd like to go the way I am dressed because I am "dressed down" like some prefer to say or for comfort like others would say, but I will "dress downer" and more "comfortable" to feel less "freaky" outside. There is not the slightest chance that I can hide my gender in this outfit (down or downer) due to my male body (high 183 cm, 82 kg, skirt size UK 12, tops UK 22-24, shoes UK 10, male baldness, hands like dishes). So I will cover the top with a boys jacket, shorts will be changed to girls jeans (actually not much of a difference to a man's jeans) shoes will be changed to unisex espandrilles (http://www.zimtschuhe.de/shop/espadrillos/1205_klein.gif). Hose will still be visible and I will feel brave as going for a bank robbery. I am awaiting stares (giggles if it is a bad day). Isn't this all wimpy for me and those who stare ?

Sometimes I like to wear skirts and would like to "doll up" for the theater or if I have invited friends for dinner. I am not into dresses on a day to day basis but sometimes I'd like to wear a classy or glamour one just for fun. Sometimes hose is changed to holdups ( stockings and garter belts are uncomfortable) to feel a bit more sexy or because it is to hot for hose. I'd like to wear heels, but as I don't want to torture my feet 2-4 inches is enough etc. I only have two pairs which I only wear the short time for styling experiments - who wears street shoes at home whole the day? I really like to wear bodysuits because they keep hose in place, panties don't become visible if you bow forward (fashion faux pas) and you don't get a cold on the hip. Sometimes I'd like classy lingerie for "special occasions" or if I feel "this is my day".
It's about time that I would need a wig. I fear the day. I know I would look more girly, and baldness doesn't contribute to a fem appearance, but I also know that I would feel masqueraded.
All in all I guess my clothing style is/would-be not to far away from a "regular" GG, - I might be terribel wrong here, you know better.
The only thing I wouldn't waer are bras, because I have no need for ... and slips of course, ' cause they are for grannies :D (though I did/tried both in my teens)


This isn't true, crossdressing is wearing the opposite sex's clothes, it has nothing to do with breastforms. Why would you think that because you don't wear breastforms, this doesn't make you a CD?

Well, you said this.


You don't get it do you, a FTM CD WOULD have their breast binded, would probably be wearing male clothes and trying to hide their true gender. Just because this woman is wearing non fem style clothing, does NOT make her a FTM CD. Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?

Translate this to my situation:

"You don't get it do you, a MTF CD WOULD wear their breast forms, would probably be wearing girls clothes and trying to hide their true gender. Just because this man is wearing non boy style clothing, does NOT make him a MTF CD. Did it not occur to you that he is in drab all day, has to be successfull and strong and wants to feel pretty?"

If the meaning of CD depends on the gender, I'd call this double standard.

You can see it the other way round.
I don't know if there is a comparable amount of FTMs like MTF - Probably not. But if so, most of them just would blend in due to the wider range of accapted clothing options for woman (there would be no need to dress "downer", like I have to). Some might even don't know that they would be labled CD if they would be MTF, because they are not under such pressure of the social conventions.
Would I have suffered hole my life for wanting to wear "girl's style" clothes like i did (and many others), would I have searched for a forum like this, would I have registered here ? Probably not, because there wouldn't be the need to to hide and the urge to find someone to talk to.
That doesn't mean that I am of the opionion that a part of woman that are "dressed for comfort" are CDs or should be labled CDs, but even if so; what are you afraid of ?
Isn't it an option that FTM CDs are made in parts by the gender standards of the society ? Even forced to do silly things like walking around in heels in their closet as long as they can, wearing hose and lingerie while sleeping, etc. (things no GG ever would do) to be able to feel feminine, pretty or sexy for a few hours. Doesn't this make them freaks in the societys eye and, more important, in their own ? Doesn't it force the need to pass to escape from the restrictions this way ?
This might be some weird thoughts of a stressed mind, but are things really like they seem to be ?
One may find some hints that there might be some truth in it in threads like "if CDing would be socialy accaptable". A few stated that they would get rid of their wigs and breast forms, which means to me that they are kind of forced to wear them by the society's standards.

For me I need self-accaptence (on a good way) and self-assuredness (some way to go).
What I do expect from the society is not accaptance, because I see nothing wrong with me (not anymore).
I'd liked to get rid of the label. You may like "man" in dress or not, you may find "man" in hose attractive or not, but that's just all. No need for labels, giggles, fear. (stares might be inevitable, but this is also the price of prettyness).


My warmest thanks to all that contributed, even if I didn't reply directly to your posts. Meant a lot to me and I learned a lot.

[Maria D]

The basic difference that ended up causing the current disparity is that 'non crossdressing' women crossdressed. Though technically crossdressers they weren't doing it because they liked the action itself, or identified with the other gender. They put, for example, trousers on, and said here 'I' am as before, but in trousers. Once those 'shape' clothes were made for women, they ceased to be crossdressers. If normal men decided to wear skirts, not as the CDs here do for pleasure or any drive to, or to identify as the other gender, but for ease of walking or comfort, and shops started selling skirts tailored for men, men wouldn't be crossdressing wearing skirts. It would, in fact, remove skirts from 'our type' of crossdressing, unless you wore girls skirts instead. It would, in fact, make it harder for you, as it is argubly harder for FTM CDs.
For the non-CD rest of society, it was never about the connotations of the clothes, it was simply about the clothes.

[Marla S]

Hm tough one. On first reading I totally agreed on the second I get my doubts.

The basic difference that ended up causing the current disparity is that 'non crossdressing' women crossdressed.
Agreed

Though technically crossdressers they weren't doing it because they liked the action itself, or identified with the other gender. They put, for example, trousers on, and said here 'I' am as before, but in trousers. Once those 'shape' clothes were made for women, they ceased to be crossdressers.
I doubt that "they ceased" once the clothes were tailord for them
(There a CD-shops tailoring dresses for man. Think about it ;)) You don't change your personality if a label is pulled of by the society. You may blend in and pressure is relieved and if your needs are covered, you wouldn't even know that you are different than the other childs, because soft-skills are less judgable as optical signals or flags. Why would you label yourself and expose yourself to social pressure if there is no need for ?
Dressing and outer appearence is always a compromise.


If normal men decided to wear skirts, not as the CDs here do for pleasure or any drive to, or to identify as the other gender, but for ease of walking or comfort, and shops started selling skirts tailored for men, men wouldn't be crossdressing wearing skirts. It would, in fact, remove skirts from 'our type' of crossdressing, unless you wore girls skirts instead.
No it wouldn't, but those actual CDs- or T-girls becoming ok to express themselfves with the offered opportunities would get rid of the label and pressure and most likely would dissapear from forums like this. Some feminine gestures or attitudes (less competitive etc.) wouldn't be worth mentioned, because they are to vague to be judged; in contrary it might even been wished by the society.


For the non-CD rest of society, it was never about the connotations of the clothes, it was simply about the clothes.
Clothes have always connotations, though they may change (and I agree that a GG in trousers is less likely a TG than me in a skirt ;))

That's why we want to wear them or not and that's how we are judged. Because lingerie, pentyhose/stockings, skirts and heels have a exclusive female connotation you get trouble with the society wearing them, you will find countless threads about these pieces of clothes on forums like this, and the vast majority of pics here will show them all combined, though you barely will see a GG wearing these style on the street.

Thesis: The number of poeple that label themself as TG increases with social pressure. Whereas the number of those who dare to make it open in some way might decrease.

But I agree that TGs remain TGs even if there would be no clothes, those are only the outer touchable and visible flag to support the personality.
Saying this, I still consider myself a TG (making clothing compromises), but as I said earlier I probably wouldn't have signed in to this forum if there would be less social pressure.

[Maria D]

'I doubt that "they ceased" once the clothes were tailord for them
(There a CD-shops tailoring dresses for man. Think about it ;))'

Well, yeah, at some point they did cease, that's exactly why they aren't crossdressing now. Further to that, that's another of my points, that men in men's dresses aren't crossdressing. It's perhaps complicated in that current 'men's dresses' are designed to fit men and emulate women, whereas the women's trousers were simply designed to fit women, as women.

'You don't change your personality if a label is pulled of by the society. You may blend in and pressure is relieved and if your needs are covered, you wouldn't even know that you are different than the other childs, because soft-skills are less judgable as optical signals or flags. Why would you label yourself and expose yourself to social pressure if there is no need for ?'

No, you don't change who you are, but society can change its view of you. Single mums were once a scandal, now they are common as muck and not sent off to have their babies taken from them.

'No it wouldn't, but those actual CDs- or T-girls becoming ok to express themselfves with the offered opportunities would get rid of the label and pressure and most likely would dissapear from forums like this.'

Yes, it really would. Men have worn 'skirts' in the past, some men wear kilts, and because they were and are men's garments they weren't crossdressing. And I'm not sure how many would disappear, the issue is being confused; this forum is about crossdressing, not the clothes, as per se. For instance, it is commonly held that women can wear what they'd like and still be women. But that's not what FTM CDs want, is it? There's a place for sites like this, because this site is more about support for people who CD because the clothes are of the opposite gender. (Except for anyone who is an exception of course).

'Clothes have always connotations, though they may change (and I agree that a GG in trousers is less likely a TG than me in a skirt ;))
That's why we want to wear them or not and that's how we are judged. Because lingerie, pentyhose/stockings, skirts and heels have a exclusive female connotation you get trouble with the society wearing them, you will find countless threads about these pieces of clothes on forums like this, and the vast majority of pics here will show them all combined, though you barely will see a GG wearing these style on the street.'

Yes they do, and if 'that's why you want to wear them' then fine, great with me. You are worried about how you are judged, and getting trouble from society, well, don't forget women did that and that's why they wear trousers now. You would only be following in older footsteps. They managed it. I don't know whether they complained or were worried about how they'd be judged though. Imagine stepping out in a society when you don't even have the vote, daring to wear a man's clothes. Do you think they had it easier, or harder than us, now?

'Thesis: The number of poeple that label themself as TG increases with social pressure. Whereas the number of those who dare to make it open in some way might decrease.'

No idea on that, but I do theorise that IF CDing runs as a percentage of total people, then since the total people has increased by billions in the last century, CDing probably increased too. I also suspect that the more open the society, the 'more' CDs since those hidden would finally be seen and counted.

'But I agree that TGs remain TGs even if there would be no clothes, those are only the outer touchable and visible flag to support the personality.
Saying this, I still consider myself a TG (making clothing compromises), but as I said earlier I probably wouldn't have signed in to this forum if there would be less social pressure.'

You are what you are :)

Take care :)

[jjjjohanne]

You don't get it do you, ... Did it not occur to you that she is at work all day, has to be on her feet all day and wants to be comfortable?



You totally don't understand how uncomfortable women's clothes are because you are a guy! :tongueout

[Marla S]

Yes, it really would. Men have worn 'skirts' in the past, some men wear kilts, and because they were and are men's garments they weren't crossdressing. And I'm not sure how many would disappear, the issue is being confused; this forum is about crossdressing, not the clothes, as per se. For instance, it is commonly held that women can wear what they'd like and still be women. But that's not what FTM CDs want, is it? There's a place for sites like this, because this site is more about support for people who CD because the clothes are of the opposite gender. (Except for anyone who is an exception of course).

I am kind of tired. Obviously I can’t express myself and I don’t want to repeat it again and again.
Believe me I would have collected stamps and would had a happy life instead of 35 years of more or less shame, guilt, fear, embarrassment (finally depressions) if it would be “only the clothes” for me.


Just two things:

Compare the man’s skirts from the past to the female clothes from the same past and culture and tell me what you would have want to wear those days.
Comparing fashion of one gender some centuries ago with fashion of the other gender from today is not a very fruitful argument. It doesn’t matter who wore what in the past or in which culture. The situation of today and our culture matters. (Of course man can wear skirts, they are not soo stupid.)
It is these old and mistaken arguments that don’t bring us any further. Except us, nobody believes in them, because they are wrong.

It makes a difference in a patriarchy if you climb up the social ladder by occupying “first class attitudes” like independence, education, strength, power, own money etc.(usually ascribed to man) for which freeing of skirts and corsets might be a symbol, or if you willingly step down the social ladder to reach out for attitudes that are still seen as “second class attitudes”, the ones that are typically ascribed to woman, and to want the skirt and corset back.
In the latter case you are faced to two non understanding groups: Man, that might even fear to be carried along and woman that will find it hard to understand why someone would reach out for something they are happy to just got rid of.

Emancipation did not strengthen the feminine attitudes, but women gave themselves the chance to assimilate the “first class attitudes”

(I know I will be hanged upside down for this, but now it doesn’t matter anyway. I’d better asked which colour my next panties should have. )

[Marla S]

You totally don't understand how uncomfortable women's clothes are because you are a guy! :tongueout
Funny:rolleyes:

[Tamara Croft]

You totally don't understand how uncomfortable women's clothes are because you are a guy! :tongueoutIn the words of Queen Victoria - I am NOT amused :mad:

[renee99]

I think the intolerance of M2F stems from an assumption that anything men do that is out of the ordinary in terms of dress is done primarily for exhibitionistic sexual reasons. There is a fine line between exhibition and expression, and it is difficult for many people on the inside to understand the difference - much less a befuddled bystander - and especially one who may be concerned about what image the company is presenting its customers.

I think this is a sad consequence of those individuals who make it their goal to surprise and shock others. Some are doing it for genuine reasons (attempting to desensitize society through risking their own necks) and others are doing it for selfish reasons. In the end, I believe trying to shock society into acceptance in this way is futile at best and possibly severely counterproductive.

At least it offends me that a genuinely interested SO who is curious may be put off when the first things she pulls up in a search is an inappropriate online photo album of someone who identifies as a "crossdresser". But there isn't anything that can really be done about it. I just wish those people would think about the consequences of what they are doing. If they are getting off on the risk of being caught, they should consider the rest of us who are by and large mortified, to the same degree, of being rejected. Is it really worth a little short term pleasure to impede progress towards acceptance/indifference? I wish they would consider the feelings of the M2F who would be fired from his job for wearing what is objectively appropriate and comfortable, and realize they are contributing to that injustice by perpetuating a stereotype.

[Ipexx2]

If a woman is wearing anything made for man. Like or not she cding.

[Marla S]

At least it offends me that a genuinely interested SO who is curious may be put off when the first things she pulls up in a search is an inappropriate online photo album of someone who identifies as a "crossdresser". But there isn't anything that can really be done about it. I just wish those people would think about the consequences of what they are doing. If they are getting off on the risk of being caught, they should consider the rest of us who are by and large mortified, to the same degree, of being rejected. Is it really worth a little short term pleasure to impede progress towards acceptance/indifference? I wish they would consider the feelings of the M2F who would be fired from his job for wearing what is objectively appropriate and comfortable, and realize they are contributing to that injustice by perpetuating a stereotype.

Very good point. I totaly agree !!!

Thanks for your reply :happy:

[Josi]

This is so simple

for arguments sake lets say the salesperson IS a Ftm cder.
So what!

She does not transgress our society's "norms".

It doesnt matter if we like it or not ... just accept that a woman may dress as she pleases including wearing male clothes if she wants. No one really cares .. hell - it can even be very feminine to wear male clothes lol!
and .. yes its "not fair" but live with it ... society feels uncomfortable when a man dresses in womens clothes.

Such is life .. lets just accept it, stop moaning and get on with just being ourselves as and when we can .. if we can!

Life isnt "fair" ... life happens and we must make what we can of it!!

[janedoe311]

Bull dike look: male clothes, short hair, no make up, no jewelry, they can be binded or not. Some lesbians and FTM, do not like their breasts so they bind even if they are not trying to pass as men.

She would not be seen as a crossdresser because she is not trying to pass as a man. She would not be fired.

Man in dress or skirt: no makeup, no forms, no wig, maybe even facial hair. Not trying to pass as a woman. That is crossdressing.

But he would be fired.

See double standard. There is no logical explanation for this. It is they way most people see it. Cross-dressing for a man is wearing female clothes for a woman it is trying to pass as a man, fake beard, breasts bound etc.

The chances are both would be fired if trying to pass as the opposite gender so no double standard there.

If a woman wore male pants and a man wore a skirt, the man would be fired.

Women can wear men’s clothes but men cannot wear woman’s clothes, that is the double standard!

[janedoe311]

If a woman is wearing anything made for man. Like or not she cding.


But my wife wearing my old shirt or pants is not crossdressing, at least she and most people do not think so.

But if I wore her old skirt it would be crossdressing.

There seems to be a different definition between when a male CD's and when a female CD's in this society.

Even I would not see her as crossdressing when she wears my shirt! So I am messed up also!

[Marla S]

Such is life .. lets just accept it, stop moaning and get on with just being ourselves as and when we can .. if we can!

NO, NO and NO my dear.
I accapted it for to long.
What did I get ? A life full of miserable feelings (you know it probably from your own life).
I accuesed myself for to long now for being sick, but the only thing that is sick is that I was made to. Period.
I don't accept the biases anymore, though I have to tolerate them, because I can't change a system. The question is not why I am the way I am, but why I get mocked for it. And the better I know it, the easier I can deal with it.
For me it is time to stop being submissive.
Maybe you are already there, but I've just arrived.

[Ipexx2]

But my wife wearing my old shirt or pants is not crossdressing, at least she and most people do not think so.

But if I wore her old skirt it would be crossdressing.

There seems to be a different definition between when a male CD's and when a female CD's in this society.

Even I would not see her as crossdressing when she wears my shirt! So I am messed up also!
Theres is no differents. It just seems that most people would like to close there eyes then to face facts. O well:tongueout . Facts are facts, white is white, black is black and crossdressing is cd.

[Josi]

Marla ..
Its not about being "submissive" .
I am not "submissive" .. I go out and be dammed with what the world thinks. I get on with life and realise that this world is imperfect. BUT when I go out I am realistic and behave in a way as to minimise problems and comfrontation.

I cant see the point in the repeated nature of wringing hands and sayiing again and again "its not fair ,, women can wear men's clothes and we cant wear womens clothes" .. its the perenial whinge of the CDer
"Its not fair" ..
My point is ... lets stop moaning and get on with living!

[Marla S]

Josi

It's not that I wouldn't know that the world is not fair and not only what CDing concerns, and I am well aware that I can't change it.
And I don't want to moan, though I admit it sounds like this.

And yes, I try to be reaslistic too, and my intention is the same as yours. I like to minimize problems and confrontation. But on the other side I like to maximize my freedom and live a "regular" life. (So I might have to put up with some problems.) To achieve this I need to know the root and background of the biases causing problems and their real nature as good as possible or if they are just based on nothing.
I. e. a rejection just hurts more if I think the other might be right or has good arguments (seemingly) and I have nothing to reply (I think some of the usual arguments to reply a realy odd). You become submissive automatically if you don't know about the nature of the problems. Didn't we all suffer a great lot because we didn't know what to tell ? Wouldn't it have been more easy if we knew how to face the unfairness from a self-confident point of view?
But we spend a bunch of time about the question why we are the way we are, theirby opening to doors for the biases to infiltrate ourselve. I call this submissive, because if you want to leave the closet the question "Why me" is irrelevant. The only relevant question is how to deal with the biases. And I think this would be a more offensive approach to gain self-accaptence.

In the end it might be necessary to sneek back in the closet, but than I like to know why, to keep or better gain my inner peace. Hope you get the point.