Quasi-Random Rambling

[Ms. Donna]

I'm not quite sure what this is: rant, vent, whinge, discussion topic... Whatever it is - ramble and all - I'm posting it nontheless: make of it what you will.

I had an interesting session with my therapist this week. I show up there with nothing in specific to discuss and we always seem to hit on some pretty deep stuff which, I suppose, is the whole point.

In many ways, the path we walk is a solitary one. We might meet up with a fellow traveler now and then, hang out for a bit and possibly even accompany one another for a while. Then, as suddenly as as we met, we will split up and find ourselves once again alone on our journey. It is a personal journey, one which must be taken alone as ours is as no one else's is.

Some six years ago or so, I walked away from the whole on-line forum thing - having 'outgrown' it all... so I thought. Then, earlier this year, I found this site and realized just how much I missed being able to interact with others - both like and unlike myself - all of whom with which I share a common bond. It's not an effort to have discussions here as by and large, most everyone 'gets it' - the whole TG/TS thing. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are - all of us: M2F, F2M, ?2?, etc... - a part of the same group. I come because, like almost every other person on this planet, I need interaction with my peers - other people, people outside of 'work' and family - people whom I can consider, even if only casually, friends.

Outside of the online world, I have no real friends save for my one 'best' friend who lives in Maryland. We correspond now and then and see each other every few years - but outside of that, this is it. I'm married, with two daughters - up @ 4:30am and home @ around 8:00pm with a two hour commute in both directions. I have no time during the week for a social life. Weekends are family time and doing stuff around the house - I do my best to grab a few hours of time alone to do my own thing. The rest of my 'social interaction' (such as it is) happens here, in front of glowing CRT. I watch as the frenzied dance of excited electrons and phosphorus brings to life the ersatz world in which I interact.

In contrast, my wife has, as she has so eloquently phrased it, 'real' friends - flesh and blood beings who are visible in not just one or two, but all three dimensions. And she does things with these 'people': tennis, lunch, girl scouts, cooking club, get-togethers with the kids - actual human contact. And while I don't begrudge her having a social life, I envy (one down - six to go) it nonetheless. She has people - friends - with whom to interact and they are all on the same page - they all 'get' one another. They can sit and chat and laugh and cry... together.

Me... I type into the ether. I don't have a single person I can sit with and actually talk to about any of this. Someone from whom I can get an animate response: a nod, a touch - some sort of human confirmation that I am not alone in this. No, at best I get an image of a place that doesn't actually exist, inhabited by beings who aren't there.

When I come home after a session with my therapist, my wife always askes me, "So, what did you talk about? Did she help you?" I hate this. I don't want to 'share' my therapy discussions. Of all the things about which we could talk, she chooses this. And if I don't want to discuss it, my wife looks at it as though I'm keeping a secret. I can't win. Part of the reason I started going to my therapist - again - was because I cannot discuss much of this with her. My wife and I - we're not on the same page... Bugger all, we're not even in the same book. Last time she asked about a session, I actually told her, "If I could talk about this stuff with you, I wouldn't be seeing my therapist."

And therein lies the rub (one of many). As much as I have come to terms with all of this, as much as I have come to accept myself - who and what I am - it doesn't mean that I have no need to share and discuss this: the fact is that I do. No, it's not the only thing in my life, but it is a major part thereof - a part from which I can not escape. I am confronted with and must deal with this every day. And the one person in my life with whom I should be able to share this - the one person who should be my best friend - my wife - I cannot. Yes, she knows about me - has for over twenty years. She accepts / tolerates this because she loves me and because she has to: but it is not by choice. And while she says she 'understands' it and 'gets' it, she really doesn't: how could she? How could anyone not like us ever really, truly 'get it.

She can't - and she has no desire to 'learn more' about it - to try and understand it better. She knows 'just enough' to cope and has no interest in knowing more. It's not her 'issue' - it's mine. As she has put it, on a day to day basis, there are other, more important things about which to concern oneself.

I think, "Perhaps if she understood this all better, or at least had some more exposure, I might be able to talk with her about this." But as it stands, she is not interested in 'discussing' this - other than when it becomes an issue for some reason. Then, she'll discuss it (even rationally) until the issue is past, life returns to 'normal' and there is no longer a reason to think about it. As I see it, she returns to the safety and security of her self imposed ignorance - safe in the knowledge that it serves to keep me from 'going too far'. She knows my limitations - as do I.

And so, she'll see her friends and they'll do whatever it is they do. She'll get to 'be herself' - in a world where men are men, women are women - where there is no 'trans-anything' with which to deal.

My therapist observed that it sounds quite lonely... It is what it is - such is my path.

And me?

Outside of dropping a c-note on my therapist every week for the privilage to vent and cry and IMHO, generally make an ass of myself in private (it is my 50 minutes, I paid for them) - I come home and log in...

The CRT hums, a warm glow envelopes me and I tippity-type-type away into the ether...

To people I don't know...

In a place that doesn't exist...


And as I watch the dance, I allow it to becomes real...


If only for a fleeting moment.



"Reason" is the cause of our falsification of the evidence of the senses. Insofar as the senses show becoming, passing away, change, they do not lie... But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction. The "apparent" world is the only one: the "real" world has only been lyingly added.


-- Friedrich Nietzsche --

[Stephenie S]

So, I do not really get this.

You say your wife doesn't understand you.

"She can't - and she has no desire to 'learn more' about it - to try and understand it better. She knows 'just enough' to cope and has no interest in knowing more. It's not her 'issue' - it's mine. As she has put it, on a day to day basis, there are other, more important things about which to concern oneself."

You do say that she reaches out to you about your CDing.

"When I come home after a session with my therapist, my wife always askes me, "So, what did you talk about? Did she help you?"

And yet when she does try to talk to you about it, you reject her aproach and shut her right down.

"I hate this. I don't want to 'share' my therapy discussions My wife and I - we're not on the same page... Bugger all, we're not even in the same book. Last time she asked about a session, I actually told her, "If I could talk about this stuff with you, I wouldn't be seeing my therapist." "

And then you admit that she is willing to discuss it.

"Then, she'll discuss it (even rationally) until the issue is past, life returns to 'normal' and there is no longer a reason to think about it. "

So I am not trying to disrespect you, I just don't understand. To me, you are not really being clear about the problem. The message I am getting is that she IS trying to share this with you and you are deciding she can't for some reason.

As I said, this may just be my misunderstanding. Can you clear this up?

I would like to understand better.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Stephenie,


So, I do not really get this.
Don't feel bad. Sometimes, I don't get it - and it's my life. :)

You need some back-history here: I identify as Genderqueer (Wikipedia has a good entry for this). As such, I do not 'crossdress' the way many here do - I make a relatively androgynous presentation: this I do all the time: home, work, wherever. I am 'out' at work - possible the only openly 'trans' individual in the firm. I'm as likely to be read as a woman as a man and it happens on a regular basis - even when out with the wife (an aspect of this which does not thrill her.)

I get her take on all of this and even support her right to not want anything to do with this. She didn't sign up for this and frankly, it's not fair to her. I get it, I understand it and I accept it. It doesn't mean I'm happy about it. :(



You say your wife doesn't understand you.
She understands the mechanics of it. From an intellectual POV, she understands that I am at odds with the world vis my sense of self and my place in the world. Intellectually, she gets that I do what I do to me more true to myself and present to the world am image I feel more accurately reflects who I am.

She doesn't understand it emotionally and because of that, she will never truly understand what it is to go through life as me.


You do say that she reaches out to you about your CDing.
As I indicated, it's not so much crossdressing. And she is not 'reaching out to me' about it: she wants to know what we discussed, how much of it was about her, how much about me and what's going to happen next.


And yet when she does try to talk to you about it, you reject her aproach and shut her right down.
Sounds good, but not actually the case. I have discussed some of my sessions with her - at length in fact. I have done so because I felt there would be a benefit to us as a couple to do so. But there are things one discusses in private because it is private - because you simply do not want someone else to hear - to know - your pain and insecurity.

It's not about rejection or shutting her down - it's about boundries: one either respects them or crosses them.



And then you admit that she is willing to discuss it.
We have discussed it. We have had epic discussions lasting days. Yes I can 'discuss' this - it is not a 'taboo' subject. But what I cannot do is share the little things - both good and bad - that come out of all of this.

I cannot share the compliments I get once and a while from women: "You have really nice hair" or "I like those earrings." I cannot share how on the train one day, the woman sitting across from me needed a mirror, so reach into my purse and hand her my compact. How when she's done, she hands it back and we continue to chat - as if it were the most natural thing in the world. I cannot share these because she'll simply get annoyed - because they show how me being me really can be 'OK' and that people can 'accept' me. That being 'trans' is not really so bad.

Nor can I share how at work one day, a couple of interns couldn't pass up the opportunity to stare at the freak: to glance and giggle so obviously that I wanted to walk up to them and say something - but instead I walked away, pretending it didn't hurt. I cannot share this, because rather that be understanding - to simply listen - my wife will use this as an opportunity to tell me, "Well, what do you expect? You can't be surprised that people will act that way." Rather than just be a friend, she'll use it as an opportunity to make a point. A point I already get all too well.


So I am not trying to disrespect you, I just don't understand. To me, you are not really being clear about the problem. The message I am getting is that she IS trying to share this with you and you are deciding she can't for some reason.
No disrespect taken.

The problem is life: who I am and the choices I've made. It's about having to lay in the bed I've made for myself. It's about accepting my situation for what it is and coping the best I can. It's about feeling sorry for myself and needing to give myself a good kick in the ass.

It's also about sharing what is - for me at least - the reality of my life. I have many good things in my life. I have been able to reach a balance between what I need and what my wife needs. Granted, it a kind of wobbly balance - but it's a balance nonetheless. There are many who will never be able to achieve that. However, there are many things which effect me deeply, that effect all of us. They are, by and large, very private, personal things - things which others around me can not know or understand. Things which I feel - and I suspect others do as well - but about which we hesitate to speak. They are things that need to be shared. They are the other part of the reality that is my life.


I would like to understand better.
Hope this helped. And thanks for asking. :)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[azure]

What would be the outcome, in terms of lifting this burden you carry. Has
your therapist explored/addressed where you are on the transgendered spectrum. Have you?. The reality, which you are very aware of I know, is that you are a married man, with a job, a lovley family, a car, house, and a dog. Except you are an individual who experiences a level of gender dysphoria. There is a significant conflict that occurs here, in the undeniable responsibilty an love for your family, and the torment that exists within you.
And, like many, myself included, along with contending with the feelings of despair and worthlessness when you see women being themselves, being all they are, self actualised, and living, while within you are dieing, you are also
churning over and over the equation which measures every single outcome of
what would happen if you actually became who you really are inside. On each
simulation your mind provides, the result is unacceptable. So you/we stay where you are, with the torment, with the questions, with the denial, with the lonliness of a world where friends who actually do get you, may as well be living on the sun.

you are not alone, ok.

remember, each day, small victories, whatever subversive, clever, down right
naughty plan it takes to get you through the day, do it, dont let life win.

[Maria D]

I can say nothing that could possibly help, sorry.

Sometimes, if you think of this world as real, you ascribe certain traits to people, based on their writing style. You, for instance, usually seem very stable and comfortable in yourself; more self accepting than most. Such a thin fiction is the perception that becomes reality. Of course, that applies to the 'real' world too, but that requires less effort to seem believeable.

In terms of personal opinion, I've always been against 'therapy', preferring to believe that it's better to 'deal with it yourself like a normal person. After all, my grandparents went though the war and carried on.' Looking back, I realise that I simply substituted hitting things and drinking for 'dealing with' but hey, life's a learning game.
I think you'd benefit from some 'real' friends, providing a level of acceptance that text just can't match. As you remarked with the compact, that level of interaction is so important to a person in terms of validation. I don't know how you go about getting 'real' friends though, it's a difficult situation you're stuck in. Perhaps invite your neighbours, or co-workers round for a barbecue? Something, just a weekend, to get the ball rolling, or maybe an evening after work 'down the pub' with your co-workers? Is that possible with your situation?

I hope you keep your balance, but also hope something changes to make things happier for you.
Oh, and I'm sitting here eating a caramel KitKat, so that's 2 down, 5 to go. :)

Take care :)

[Ms. Donna]

I suspect that Kimberley could add some complimentrary color to this: it seems that she and I are somewhat kindred spirits with respect to our choices in life. Perhaps I simply make more noise about it. :)


What would be the outcome, in terms of lifting this burden you carry. Has your therapist explored/addressed where you are on the transgendered spectrum. Have you?.

Been there and done that. The burden is that as far as the 'spectrum' goes, I'm not on it. I don't identify as either a 'man' or a 'woman': I find myself at odds with both extremes. And while 'somewhere in between' sounds good, somehow it just doesn't fit. I have wrestled with this long and hard: I have done my exploration on this point.


The reality, which you are very aware of I know, is that you are a married man
Now, now... no need for name calling. ;)

See, that's just it: I am not a man. I can look and act like one - play the part - but it is an identity which does not resonate for me. I simply do not 'get it'. Also, to be labeled a 'man' is to ascribe a host of traits - likes, dislikes, hobbies, thought processes, etc. - Which simply are not who I am. I was 'gendered' as a boy, raised as such, assumed the identity of 'man' - all because that is what was expected of me. When I finally came to terms with all of this, I realized and accepted who and what I am. No, I'm sure that whatever it is I am, 'man' is not it.


with a job, a lovley family, a car, house, and a dog. Except you are an individual who experiences a level of gender dysphoria.
Gender Dysphoria is a quack diagnosis designed by the medical community as a way to enforce the oppressive system of binary gender. Because I choose an identity different from that which was assigned to me - because I am not permitted to become that person I am ment to be, I now have some medical problem? :Angry3:


There is a significant conflict that occurs here, in the undeniable responsibilty and love for your family, and the torment that exists within you.
The conflict - as I have expressed in this thread - is the longing to connect at a deep and personal level with someone - anyone. The conflict is that the one person in the world with whom I should have that connection - my wife - is someone with whom I will never have this connection.

And if not with her, then with whom???


And, like many, myself included, along with contending with the feelings of despair and worthlessness when you see women being themselves, being all they are, self actualised, and living, while within you are dieing, you are also churning over and over the equation which measures every single outcome of what would happen if you actually became who you really are inside. On each simulation your mind provides, the result is unacceptable.
True enough. As much as I try to not do this, it happens nonetheless.


So you/we stay where you are, with the torment, with the questions, with the denial, with the lonliness of a world where friends who actually do get you, may as well be living on the sun.

you are not alone, ok.
It's not all that bad and I know I'm not alone. I am most thankful for the fact that we live in a time when we can reach out onto the ether and find - not emptiness - but friendship and a sense of belonging.


remember, each day, small victories, whatever subversive, clever, down right naughty plan it takes to get you through the day, do it, dont let life win.
While in the end, life may ultimately 'win', it will be a fight to the death - and I won't go down easily. ;)


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Ms. Donna]

I can say nothing that could possibly help, sorry.
Oh, I don't know about that. You alway seem to have a good point to make.


Sometimes, if you think of this world as real, you ascribe certain traits to people, based on their writing style. You, for instance, usually seem very stable and comfortable in yourself; more self accepting than most. Such a thin fiction is the perception that becomes reality. Of course, that applies to the 'real' world too, but that requires less effort to seem believeable.
"You, for instance, usually seem very stable..." A nice way of saying I'm acting rather whacked at the moment. :) No argument from me.

But I completely agree: perception is reality - especially online. To others, we are the person we present - whom we pretend to be.


In terms of personal opinion, I've always been against 'therapy', preferring to believe that it's better to 'deal with it yourself like a normal person.
My therapist does help. Each time, I seem to uncover something new - which I see as a good thing and worth the effort and money. I do, for the most part though, deal with much on my own. I always have.


I think you'd benefit from some 'real' friends, providing a level of acceptance that text just can't match. As you remarked with the compact, that level of interaction is so important to a person in terms of validation.
Absolutely - and this is something within my control. I just need to work out a way to make it happen.


I don't know how you go about getting 'real' friends though, it's a difficult situation you're stuck in. Perhaps invite your neighbours, or co-workers round for a barbecue?
We get together with neighbors and such, and I have 'friends' at work - but they are not people with whom I can share this part of me. They know 'Gary' - they don't know 'Donna' (well a few do, but still). Donna needs playmates too ya know!


I hope you keep your balance, but also hope something changes to make things happier for you.
I'll be fine. I just allow myself to get overwhelmed sometimes and - well - it all needs to come out. We all experience it now and then - just taking my turn.


Oh, and I'm sitting here eating a caramel KitKat, so that's 2 down, 5 to go. :)
And you didn't even offer to share... Greedy bitch.

3 down, 4 to go. :)

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Kimberley]

Hi Donna,

I’m not even going to try to address everything here, a lot of it you and I have discussed either privately or publicly in the past. I think a lot of this goes directly to the “kindred spirits” that we are. So, I guess my best reply is one of fact not so much for your information but for others who no doubt wonder who I am and where do I come from.

So here goes. I grew up totally out of place, forced into a role I didn’t ask for and didn’t want. With that came a lot of mental, emotional and physical abuse, some of it bordering on sexual abuse but that is a point of intellectual debate. I learned that role of the male well, perhaps too well.

Of course that was a different time. Christine Jorgenson was the flavour of the week on the afternoon talk show circuit; she was a deviant, a freak and although treated respectfully in the public eye, out of the limelight she was despised. We were all lumped into the same melting pot and we were “mentally ill” as per the DSM of the day. Unfortunately there was no “cure” then, any more than there is now. Hold your protestations. We can’t be cured but we can be allowed to be ourselves to whatever degree we need. That is the basic truth many people miss. Too many of us see black and white and in so doing we miss that portion of the TG spectrum known as the genderqueer or whatever. Donna knows how much I despise labels. Kind of reminds me of an old Pete Seeger song about little boxes.

Anyway, to get back to the story. I grew up hiding, in fear and self-loathing that I wasn’t “normal” at least by the standards of definition, both then and now. Okay, okay I know in the past I have said we are normal and by all understanding we are, however we are not viewed that way by society at large and so that is the context in which I say we are not normal. We are just a little different. Okay, some of us are a lot different.

So growing up and after being betrayed time and again I learned that not even friends could be trusted so I kept only one or two good friends from about the fifth grade on. Today I can count my friends on one hand and still have fingers left. I have many acquaintances but only a couple of friends. In that I feel blessed. Yes Donna, you are quite right in feeling the solitude. An acquaintance once told me that one can be alone and not be lonely. There is a difference.

I think this is a good time to address the virtual reality of friendship in this medium. I disagree with Donna’s assessment in this. Friends lay their souls bare. The medium of electronics is no different than sitting with pen and paper. The result is the same. Either one exposes him/herself of not. I do agree though that we tend to drift way too much, but I blame this on our propensity for not exposing our vulnerabilities. Yes it is a defence mechanism we all learned and we carry it with us every second of every day.

High school had me on the grand sum of one date. It was a disaster. I was as you so aptly describe yourself, a geek. I had the additional burden of slipping through the cracks and being streamed into the tech programs where all the intellectually inferior beings were sent. So, here I am; gender confused, intelligent and artistic, surrounded by people who scrape their knuckles on speed bumps. Got the picture? It was just more reinforcement that I was a total freak.

After high school I went into a tailspin. I worked at a respectable job for the local newspaper in the day, and at night, well lets just say drugs, rock and roll, and bikers. No, no sex. I was scared sh**less that some girl would discover the truth and out me. Eventually I met my wife and as I have said before, I kept the secret. Again, for reasons already publicly stated this secret was kept for decades.

Eventually I did come out and got exactly what I feared. So, unlike Donna I do not have any tolerance from my wife at all. Eventually I cracked under the pressure of Kimberley awakening, and work among other things. I did go to counselling and it did help for another 15 years until 3 years ago. A lot of the last 3 years have been lost in a pharmaceutical fog. (I detest anti-psychotics) Today I am only taking one antidepressant. (Yes Maria, it IS necessary)

So that brings us back to the circumstance of relationships. My “best friend” and my wife are not one and the same. She is someone with whom I share my living such as it is. I can share anything with her except my gender issues. For that I have this forum, my pdoc, and a very special young lady in Brazil. (I know this is news to most people here.) Ana, I love you to bits.

So where are my relationships? Well my family for starters. Each of them fills a need outside of my gender issues. Beyond that I have one friend that I call on a couple of times a year. We get together over dinner and chat all night then go our own ways until the next time. Would I trust him with my secret? No.

Ahh but what about meeting others like me and you? There’s the rub. I know it sounds snobbish but how does one carry a conversation with someone who is not an intellectual equal? How does one establish a relationship of any consequence where the focus is on CDing? All too often that seems to be what is expected among us. It is just so two-dimensional. Is it any wonder we drift?

We do “get it” don’t we? I sometimes wonder. We seem to have things figured out but at the same time we never quite have it all. Is this really any different than any other human being on this planet? We are in a continual state of flux. It is human nature. We change, we adapt and we change again. We question everything. If people like us don’t question, then we die; at least intellectually. We are dynamic and as such we have to question everything. We have to challenge the status quo at every turn. It drives our wives crazy sometimes because they cant understand us any more than we can understand them. They can rationalize on an intellectual level or in rare cases empathize, but not understand. Only those of us who live this life can understand.

Donna, you do have a friend.

:hugs:

Kimberley.

[Ms. Donna]

No fair, your post is longer that mine was.


So, I guess my best reply is one of fact not so much for your information but for others who no doubt wonder who I am and where do I come from.
Works for me.


I have many acquaintances but only a couple of friends. In that I feel blessed. Yes Donna, you are quite right in feeling the solitude. An acquaintance once told me that one can be alone and not be lonely. There is a difference.
So true - and perhaps the crux of my original post: not being lonely whilst at the same time being quite alone. I have yet to master the art of succinctness.


I think this is a good time to address the virtual reality of friendship in this medium. I disagree with Donna’s assessment in this. Friends lay their souls bare. The medium of electronics is no different than sitting with pen and paper. The result is the same. Either one exposes him/herself of not. I do agree though that we tend to drift way too much, but I blame this on our propensity for not exposing our vulnerabilities. Yes it is a defence mechanism we all learned and we carry it with us every second of every day.

Don't mistake my musings about 'people who aren't there' with not valuing the people here. I value everyone here - in many ways more that the 3D acquaintances in my life. I value this medium as well. This is what has allowed me to survive - to understand myself - to 'work out' problems - to learn from those far wiser than myself - to not live in solitude - to know that the world is awash in 'kindred spirits' - to know that I am but one of many and not the one and only.

I have two families: and for both I am thankful.


Ahh but what about meeting others like me and you? There’s the rub. I know it sounds snobbish but how does one carry a conversation with someone who is not an intellectual equal? How does one establish a relationship of any consequence where the focus is on CDing? All too often that seems to be what is expected among us. It is just so two-dimensional. Is it any wonder we drift?
There's that succinctness thing again... I'm not looking to play dress up (although it can be fun) so much a to make a connection - an intellectual and emotional connection. Kinda like "lookin' for a ruby in a mountain of rocks." :)


We do “get it” don’t we? I sometimes wonder. We seem to have things figured out but at the same time we never quite have it all. Is this really any different than any other human being on this planet?
I do feel that 'we' get it better than most people. The average Joe or Jane live their life in a state of blissful ignorance about how they came to be who they are and believe what they believe. They have never had any reason to question these things and probably never will.

Us? We have no choice in the matter.


We are in a continual state of flux. It is human nature. We change, we adapt and we change again. We question everything. If people like us don’t question, then we die; at least intellectually. We are dynamic and as such we have to question everything. We have to challenge the status quo at every turn.
Again, something the average Joe or Jane simply do not experience. My wife summed this up nicely after reading my manuscript. Her first comment was "I move through life much more easily than you do." - referring to herself. And it's true, the cisgendered simply do not get bogged down in all the intellectual and emotional crap that we do.


It drives our wives crazy sometimes because they cant understand us any more than we can understand them. They can rationalize on an intellectual level or in rare cases empathize, but not understand. Only those of us who live this life can understand.
And thus we find ourselves: perhaps not lonely, but quite alone nonetheless.


Thank you for sharing this - for taking the time to compose it. It speaks to so many things I thing we all experience in one way or another. This is why I do this - and why my posts are so bleedin' long - because we all deal with these issues: sometimes differently, sometimes the same. We need to know that we are not alone with this - that there is a world of people just like ourselves.

:hugs:

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[azure]

Im not going to bother offering my opionion anymore, when I give my offer my sincere thoughts and all I get is some pithy, smug reply. I refuse to help anyone anymore, becuase this is what happens the majority of the time ; they ask for help and say how awful thier life is, I reach out a hand to give comfort, they take that help, they go of feeling all good again and then act like I am the whole cause of all their troubles.

[Kimberly]

I'm not quite sure what this is: rant, vent, whinge, discussion topic... Whatever it is - ramble and all - I'm posting it nontheless: make of it what you will.

I had an interesting session with my therapist this week. I show up there with nothing in specific to discuss and we always seem to hit on some pretty deep stuff which, I suppose, is the whole point.

In many ways, the path we walk is a solitary one. We might meet up with a fellow traveler now and then, hang out for a bit and possibly even accompany one another for a while. Then, as suddenly as as we met, we will split up and find ourselves once again alone on our journey. It is a personal journey, one which must be taken alone as ours is as no one else's is.

Some six years ago or so, I walked away from the whole on-line forum thing - having 'outgrown' it all... so I thought. Then, earlier this year, I found this site and realized just how much I missed being able to interact with others - both like and unlike myself - all of whom with which I share a common bond. It's not an effort to have discussions here as by and large, most everyone 'gets it' - the whole TG/TS thing. Whether we want to admit it or not, we are - all of us: M2F, F2M, ?2?, etc... - a part of the same group. I come because, like almost every other person on this planet, I need interaction with my peers - other people, people outside of 'work' and family - people whom I can consider, even if only casually, friends.

Outside of the online world, I have no real friends save for my one 'best' friend who lives in Maryland. We correspond now and then and see each other every few years - but outside of that, this is it. I'm married, with two daughters - up @ 4:30am and home @ around 8:00pm with a two hour commute in both directions. I have no time during the week for a social life. Weekends are family time and doing stuff around the house - I do my best to grab a few hours of time alone to do my own thing. The rest of my 'social interaction' (such as it is) happens here, in front of glowing CRT. I watch as the frenzied dance of excited electrons and phosphorus brings to life the ersatz world in which I interact.

In contrast, my wife has, as she has so eloquently phrased it, 'real' friends - flesh and blood beings who are visible in not just one or two, but all three dimensions. And she does things with these 'people': tennis, lunch, girl scouts, cooking club, get-togethers with the kids - actual human contact. And while I don't begrudge her having a social life, I envy (one down - six to go) it nonetheless. She has people - friends - with whom to interact and they are all on the same page - they all 'get' one another. They can sit and chat and laugh and cry... together.

Me... I type into the ether. I don't have a single person I can sit with and actually talk to about any of this. Someone from whom I can get an animate response: a nod, a touch - some sort of human confirmation that I am not alone in this. No, at best I get an image of a place that doesn't actually exist, inhabited by beings who aren't there.

When I come home after a session with my therapist, my wife always askes me, "So, what did you talk about? Did she help you?" I hate this. I don't want to 'share' my therapy discussions. Of all the things about which we could talk, she chooses this. And if I don't want to discuss it, my wife looks at it as though I'm keeping a secret. I can't win. Part of the reason I started going to my therapist - again - was because I cannot discuss much of this with her. My wife and I - we're not on the same page... Bugger all, we're not even in the same book. Last time she asked about a session, I actually told her, "If I could talk about this stuff with you, I wouldn't be seeing my therapist."

And therein lies the rub (one of many). As much as I have come to terms with all of this, as much as I have come to accept myself - who and what I am - it doesn't mean that I have no need to share and discuss this: the fact is that I do. No, it's not the only thing in my life, but it is a major part thereof - a part from which I can not escape. I am confronted with and must deal with this every day. And the one person in my life with whom I should be able to share this - the one person who should be my best friend - my wife - I cannot. Yes, she knows about me - has for over twenty years. She accepts / tolerates this because she loves me and because she has to: but it is not by choice. And while she says she 'understands' it and 'gets' it, she really doesn't: how could she? How could anyone not like us ever really, truly 'get it.

She can't - and she has no desire to 'learn more' about it - to try and understand it better. She knows 'just enough' to cope and has no interest in knowing more. It's not her 'issue' - it's mine. As she has put it, on a day to day basis, there are other, more important things about which to concern oneself.

I think, "Perhaps if she understood this all better, or at least had some more exposure, I might be able to talk with her about this." But as it stands, she is not interested in 'discussing' this - other than when it becomes an issue for some reason. Then, she'll discuss it (even rationally) until the issue is past, life returns to 'normal' and there is no longer a reason to think about it. As I see it, she returns to the safety and security of her self imposed ignorance - safe in the knowledge that it serves to keep me from 'going too far'. She knows my limitations - as do I.

And so, she'll see her friends and they'll do whatever it is they do. She'll get to 'be herself' - in a world where men are men, women are women - where there is no 'trans-anything' with which to deal.

My therapist observed that it sounds quite lonely... It is what it is - such is my path.

And me?

Outside of dropping a c-note on my therapist every week for the privilage to vent and cry and IMHO, generally make an ass of myself in private (it is my 50 minutes, I paid for them) - I come home and log in...

The CRT hums, a warm glow envelopes me and I tippity-type-type away into the ether...

To people I don't know...

In a place that doesn't exist...


And as I watch the dance, I allow it to becomes real...


If only for a fleeting moment.



"Reason" is the cause of our falsification of the evidence of the senses. Insofar as the senses show becoming, passing away, change, they do not lie... But Heraclitus will remain eternally right with his assertion that being is an empty fiction. The "apparent" world is the only one: the "real" world has only been lyingly added.


-- Friedrich Nietzsche --

I hate to be the one to say it....

You need to tell her this. Not us.

[Sarahgurl371]

Well I understand the message contained in the original post. Absolutley.

I have been thinking just how messed up it is that I get my human interaction while sitting alone, in front of a computer screen, looking out the window to make sure no one sneaks up on me and see's CROSSDRESSERS.COM on my screen. Knowing that this is not how I want to be, wondering if I will ever find a way.

Hoping each day that on this day I will find the courage to just be me, whatever that is, and actually do something about it. As in, finding some other "real" person with whom I can interact and share me, as in "friend". But you know what? That takes courage. It involves taking a chance on someone. And after being burned by my best friend (wife), its a chance that I don't feel like taking no matter how alone I feel. So like you, what do I do? Walk in, turn on the computer, read your posts, wonder as to how life might be if I were free to do what I want, maybe reply to some, maybe not, get disgusted by it all one more time, log off and go try to do something "productive".

Oh yes, I am married as well. And my best friend and I are on the verge of divorce because of me and my dirty little secret. Yeah it seems I know about feeling sorry for myself, and then most definitley wanting to kick my own ass.

Most here are much further down the road to self acceptance than me. I envy that. And it just goes to show that even if I do get there someday, there will still be problems.

So yeah, you guys, girls, whatever, are not alone. I am just one more within your ranks. And I am thankful that you are out there. Somewhere. Who knows maybe someday we will cross paths, and it won't be weird, or uncomfortable between us, and we will become friends in real time.

[Ms. Donna]

Im not going to bother offering my opionion anymore, when I give my offer my sincere thoughts and all I get is some pithy, smug reply.
Wow... Didn't see this coming.

So much for being on the same page. I always find interesting when the name-calling starts.

I've been called many things in my life, but pithy and smug??? This is a new one for me. More labels for the pile - thanks. :(


I refuse to help anyone anymore, becuase this is what happens the majority of the time ; they ask for help and say how awful thier life is, I reach out a hand to give comfort, they take that help, they go of feeling all good again and then act like I am the whole cause of all their troubles.
How you managed to turn my reply into you being the cause of my problems is beyond me. I'm not sure what it is I said - or didn't say - or said the wrong way... Whatever it is, I am sorry that you took offense to it, as it wasn't my intention.

In any case, please don't stop 'helping' others on my account.

And feel free to ignore what I have to say going forward - this post included.

[Teresa Amina]

I thought I'd throw something in about the Cyber vs. "Real" friends thing. I had never in all my life spoken/keyboarded to anyone about my "Teresa-ness" until I found this Forum. How do you bring up all these "issues" to those "real" people in your life when the public image of CD/TG/TS is what Jerry Springer shows and what those wonderful "Sickology" people have to say?:eek: I was so terrified that I hid from myself for decades! To be able to come here and speak my mind is something I find irreplaceable. I had no idea there were so many people I had so much in common with.

[~Kitty GG~]

I don't think we have to be TS to understand. Even emotionally.. I understand it.

If it was me .. and when it was me.. in a relationship where we weren't meeting eachother's needs.. I would fix it or move on.

If I am going to be lonely I want to at least be alone. And have all the "me" time I want instead of trying to squeeze a little time out of the week for myself.

So my solution would be a try at couple's counselling and if that doesn't work I'd have to move on and try to find that connection you're missing somewhere else.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~
:star::star::star:

[Ms. Donna]

A lot of us identify as 'women' and 'men' - and we talk about feeling feminine or masculine. So, here's a point to ponder:

Assuming one is born male, gendered as a boy and raised as such. For the most part, their experiences are those that a 'boy' would have - albeit tainted due to all the gender flosam rattling around in their head. And so, as many here have done / still do, one 'does things' in order to feel more at ease with oneself - an end result of which is that one now declares that they feel feminine - they feel like a woman.

My question is this: What exactily does this mean? How can one feel feminine - feel 'like a woman' having never had experiences of growing up as such. As I see it, there are a host of experiences - physical, emotional, social - to which one has been denied access by virtue of being raised as a boy.

I question what it is we actually think we are feeling in these situations. Perhaps, we are feeling - experiencing - what we perceive it to be like to 'be' a woman: it is our interpretation thereof. As such, we have no way to know if what we are feeling and experiencing is, in fact, what a 'woman' feels and experiences.

To our F2M kinsmen, please do the presto-chango gender flip on the above. :)

There you have it - the random thought for the day.

Comments, thoughts, musings...


Love & Stuff,
Donna

[GypsyKaren]

Very well put Donna, Tamara and I were just talking about the very same thing yesterday. I say I feel "feminine", but what do I really know about such things? Nothing really, it's just a perception I think I feel, a feeling as how I imagine it to be. Because of that I've stopped using that description all together, preferring to just feel as a person. Besides, I don't feel it's fair to say that I feel as a woman because I haven't paid my dues as one, and I'm a firm believer in that...nice post!

Karen

[CaptLex]

My question is this: What exactily does this mean? How can one feel feminine - feel 'like a woman' having never had experiences of growing up as such. As I see it, there are a host of experiences - physical, emotional, social - to which one has been denied access by virtue of being raised as a boy.

I question what it is we actually think we are feeling in these situations. Perhaps, we are feeling - experiencing - what we perceive it to be like to 'be' a woman: it is our interpretation thereof. As such, we have no way to know if what we are feeling and experiencing is, in fact, what a 'woman' feels and experiences.

To our F2M kinsmen, please do the presto-chango gender flip on the above. :)

There you have it - the random thought for the day.

Comments, thoughts, musings...
Donna, you are ever the philosopher. Good questions - and hard to answer. I'm going to try, but I know it's going to make my head hurt. :doh:

I think you're right that it is perception and interpretation. Having never really lived as a boy (and being socialized as a female), it makes sense that I would have no idea what that feels like. So yeah . . . it's my perception. I never felt that I fit in with the girls, but could easily relate to the boys.

For me, it's based on hanging out with guys and realizing that they feel a lot of the same things I feel, and they think a lot of the same things I think. Of course, I also realize that a lot of women feel and think the same things, so that's not scientific proof.

Actually, I know I'm somewhere in between. I'm a feminine boy and a masculine girl. And the closest I identify with really is other transguys who are also somewhere in between.

I hope at least some of that made sense. :p

[Marla S]

My question is this: What exactily does this mean? How can one feel feminine - feel 'like a woman' having never had experiences of growing up as such. As I see it, there are a host of experiences - physical, emotional, social - to which one has been denied access by virtue of being raised as a boy.

I question what it is we actually think we are feeling in these situations. Perhaps, we are feeling - experiencing - what we perceive it to be like to 'be' a woman: it is our interpretation thereof. As such, we have no way to know if what we are feeling and experiencing is, in fact, what a 'woman' feels and experiences.

Good question that is not to answer. It is the same problem as the question "How does it fell to be happy". There is no definition and no answer.
You can try to explain it with metaphors, but you will only get kind of an understanding by those thinking they have experienced happyness themselves.
The actual feeling can't be described, but we can agree on symbols for a feeling that can be understood by someone who thinks he has had the same feeling. These symbols are words, metaphors, a gesture, a mien and stereotypes.

Therefor I am quite sure that no CD, TS, GG or GF is able to answer the question "What does it mean to feel feminine or masculine ?" precisely. Non TGs don't even have the need to think about it. They just are.
Of course you will get answers, but they usually will be a more or less complete collection of stereotypes which might have a sligtly different interpretation for every individual.

The only thing that can be answered correctly is that one feels better, in the right place or misplaced in a certain situation (see CapLex's post).
If this situation is associated with the opposite gender, you are a TG.

To the point. IMO what "we think we are feeling" is a construction of feminity and deconstruction of masculinity (the other way round for F2Ms) based on our non expressible feelings, described by cultur dependend stereotypes.

For CDs clothes are important sterotypes as they help to express and describe a feeling and might be the basis to explore and improve the construction of a gender image.

[Maria D]

Interesting question Donna, but it pre-supposes that non-TG people DO know what they feel, and 'we' don't. That is, that a born woman would know how to feel feminine, and that ALL born women feel like that. This I doubt to be true, feelings of femininity or masculinity are different for everyone, so given that as a start, then why can't, for instance, I, feel feminine?
As to growing up, there are vast differences in the way people are brought up, gender role being just one difference, and there are many things that will alter how someone feels about anything, including the nature of the person itself. Also consider the differences in growing up in different countries. An American will have a different perception of femininity than an English woman, and different again from an Iranian woman, for instance.
I know as hard fact how many women close to me 'feel' about things, and I know that there are many differences between each. Surely there is no 'feminine' other than how you feel and choose to call it?
To exclude GypsyKaren from from feeling feminine, while allowing my sister's feeling's validity is, in my opinion of course, grossly unfair. They both have their own perception, it likely differs, and that's ok.
The reverse applies to FTM TSs of course; I don't question their masculinity at all. Of course, I also know from first hand experience that 'some' men believe getting hammered and starting a fight is masculine, and some don't. Differences again, that's all.

Take acre :)

[Kimberley]

Wow, some deep thoughts here.

I have to agree that it is impossible to describe masculine or feminine other than metaphorically. The question in my mind is do we construct our own perceptions based on observation or do we experience emotions that are generally foreign to our assigned gender?

For me it is the latter. I get emotional just because. (No I am not on HRT) It just happens because I can empathize with a situation or I feel that I have no "masculine" response. Sometimes it is totally frustrating.

My interests are artistic which is generally considered a feminine pursuit. I could care less about sports... well except for Serie A.
Juvie was relegated. 8-((

Anyway, I agree with Maria that some of it is relative to culture.

[Clare]

Damn Donna! Going back to the origional post, it read as if you were speaking to me directly as it came across so vividly! I really understood the meaning you were expressing quite clearly. I think a lot of us CD'ers may have the same experiences, but never clearly acknowledge them so succinctly.


I thought I'd throw something in about the Cyber vs. "Real" friends thing. I had never in all my life spoken/keyboarded to anyone about my "Teresa-ness" until I found this Forum. How do you bring up all these "issues" to those "real" people in your life ...
... I was so terrified that I hid from myself for decades! To be able to come here and speak my mind is something I find irreplaceable. I had no idea there were so many people I had so much in common with.Yep, ya got that right Teresa!

[Ms. Donna]

Interesting question Donna, but it pre-supposes that non-TG people DO know what they feel, and 'we' don't. That is, that a born woman would know how to feel feminine, and that ALL born women feel like that. This I doubt to be true, feelings of femininity or masculinity are different for everyone, so given that as a start, then why can't, for instance, I, feel feminine?
Not presupposition so much as speculation. I seems to me that a group of GG women will 'click' in a way indicative of some common understanding - a common experience base. It is much the same as we all here 'click' to a certain extent. We all get the 'feeling different' thing such that it need not be explained to convey the feeling.

You can and I'm sure you do feel feminine. I have 'feelings' which I choose to attribute as being 'feminine' as well. However, I'm sure that my experience of 'feminine' is not the same as that of my wife and her friends. I'm sure that there are intersections between our sets of experiences, but by and large, mine and theirs are very different: no less valid and real, but different nonetheless.


I know as hard fact how many women close to me 'feel' about things, and I know that there are many differences between each. Surely there is no 'feminine' other than how you feel and choose to call it?

But for all their differences, is there not something common to them in which they share but you do not? If 'feminine' is nothing more than how you feel and choose to call it, then how does that differ from 'masculine'? Do the lables in fact have any meaning outside of how we personally define them? Don't they serve to indicate membership to a specific group of people who share this common state of being?


To exclude GypsyKaren from from feeling feminine, while allowing my sister's feeling's validity is, in my opinion of course, grossly unfair. They both have their own perception, it likely differs, and that's ok.
It absolutely is OK. Both experience the world differently and see themselves as 'feminine' in separate but related ways. For me, I'm interested in what the common points are: those experiences shared by two very different people such that both see themselves as members of the same group.

I hope you realize that I am looking to neither exclude nor invalidate anyone. More of a mental stretching exercise really. It's good to poke things like this with a stick now and then - well, at least I like poking them. :)


The question in my mind is do we construct our own perceptions based on observation or do we experience emotions that are generally foreign to our assigned gender?
I tend to not see emotions as being gender based. While we have, unfortunately, opted to attribute some emotions more to women and others to men, neither group have exclusive ownership thereof. I also tend to agree with you with regards to experiencing emotions. I know I have experienced feelings and such for which there is no name (and as such, I really cannot describe them) and they are in fact, quite alien. I think that in the past, being unable to frame these feelings as 'masculine', my default frwming for them became 'feminine'. Now, I just feel and experience sans gender attribution. As Karen mentioned, I 'feel' like a person - whether those feelings are masculine, feminine or something else is anyone's guess.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Ms. Donna]

Damn Donna! Going back to the origional post, it read as if you were speaking to me directly as it came across so vividly! I really understood the meaning you were expressing quite clearly. I think a lot of us CD'ers may have the same experiences, but never clearly acknowledge them so succinctly.

Thanks. :o It's always nice to connect with someone.

I have a couple of people I do chat with about this. They are GGs at work and while we have interesting chats, it just isn't the same. They are accepting and they kinda get it - but that's about the best for which I can hope. It helps, but it's not the same. There is no shared experience, no commonality as there is with someone else who identifies as trans: as Kimberley pointed out - I'm not lonely, but I do feel quite alone. Not all the time, but often enough for it to get to me now and then.

And I agree than it's probably a feeling more commonly experienced than it is expressed.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Maria D]

Not presupposition so much as speculation. I seems to me that a group of GG women will 'click' in a way indicative of some common understanding - a common experience base. It is much the same as we all here 'click' to a certain extent. We all get the 'feeling different' thing such that it need not be explained to convey the feeling.
Well, I used to 'click' with other men over football, cars etc. A common 'sexes' experience base yes, but only one I conformed to because I tried to fit in. From some of the deeper conversations I've had with people (you know, the 4am after-pub chats) I feel that more people 'do it' to fit in than people think. Equally, I've known women who knew more about football than me, and 'clicked' quite happily in the way you mention. The experience base issue isn't so much about 'being' as about learning something to conform to how you are, and it can be learnt by anyone. Er, I think that makes sense... ;)


I have 'feelings' which I choose to attribute as being 'feminine' as well. However, I'm sure that my experience of 'feminine' is not the same as that of my wife and her friends.
I'm also certain that your wife's experience of being feminine isn't that of any of her friends, and that's my point. There isn't one femininity to 'be', just a person's feeling of it.

But for all their differences, is there not something common to them in which they share but you do not? If 'feminine' is nothing more than how you feel and choose to call it, then how does that differ from 'masculine'? Do the lables in fact have any meaning outside of how we personally define them? Don't they serve to indicate membership to a specific group of people who share this common state of being?
If the issue is pressed and it's pointed out that the common bond between them is being born a woman, and that's the root of femininity, it fails to address the issue of the differences between women (my fiancee is not 'girly' at all, her mother possesses all the masculine traits you can think of etc) and it fails to address FTM TSs. That's why I settle on 'how someone feels' as the closest I can get to a definition that doesn't exclude or hurt anyone. Not ideal, but the waters are muddy. The labels need to take account of TG people, which is hard to shoehorn in, unless we learn that labels are restickable.

I do realise you aren't out to do that Donna. I admire the way you carve your own 'I am me' niche too, and was mainly responding to what GypsyKaren said:
'I say I feel "feminine", but what do I really know about such things? Nothing really, it's just a perception I think I feel, a feeling as how I imagine it to be.' That's all it ever is to anyone, and a validation of her feelings, not a reason to stop feeling it. Anyway, to be masculine and competitive: my poking stick is sharper than yours! :P

Take care :)

[Ms. Donna]

Kinda relates to the last topic. When speaking about ourselves, we seem to go through all sorts linguistic contortions, trying to find the right 'words' to express who we are. We have even gone so far to create new words in the hopes of making it easier to express ourselves. New labels: transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, polygendered, etc… Even new pronouns: hir, ze, etc… And while this is all well and good, new words need to be defined and when pressed to define our new-found labels, we wind up back where we started: trying to explain ‘who we are’ with a woefully inadequate language: one not designed with people such as us in mind.

One need not do much analysis to see that the notion of a gender as a dichotomy is so deeply ingrained in our language that it dictates the very way we are able to conceptualize the world and ourselves therein. The inadequacy of language is responsible for such contradictions as the woman trapped in a man’s body expression. However, given the either/or limitation of language, it’s about the best one can do. As I said earlier, feelings I had which did not resonate for me as ‘masculine’ I used to automatically attribute as ‘feminine’: I knew no other way to categorize them.

Another fallacy is that of the Gender Spectrum where 'man' and 'woman' are pitted in polar opposition to one another and we all are supposed to be somewhere in between. To me, this is nothing more that a repackaging of gender as a binary so as to look like there is more to it than there is. But in the end, to be 'in the middle' is to express yourself is terms of one’s maleness and femaleness or one's masculine and feminine sides. You can choose some from column A and some from column B, but menu still only has two choices.

Which brings me to my point(s) to ponder: with everything expressed in terms of 'man' and 'woman' / 'male' and 'female', how much has language dictated our identity? How does one express and define otherness in a language which does not support it? And as a corollary, can 'otherness' truly exist of there is no way to to express and represent it?

Discuss amongst yourselves… :)


Oh, and Maria, your poking stick might be sharper - but mine's longer. :p


Love & Stuff,
Donna