Pride and prejudice

[dancinginthedark]

Or how can one be a cross-dresser who not so long ago stood in front of a full length mirror full of pride in their appearance and still judge others harshly....


(Note to moderator, not sure where to post so I stuck it here. Feel free to move if needed. Mae)


At little back ground for our newer members. I found out about my hubby's CD in mid/late Feb of this year after 18 years together and close to 17 married. :eek: I joinded this site in March and started the long road to acceptance and learning Lot's of ups and downs no matter which side of the equation you're on, like you all know first hand.

My question/problem starts with this: my hubby it seems to me is often judgemental about others . He is able to wrap his mind around TS since he believes that is making the CD-ing part of it acceptable. "At least they have a reason for it," he says. On the other hand he tells me he often feels like a prevert or freak because of the dressing. So for my hubby, the whole thing is so foggy. Something he loves and hates. So other than my extended family here no one in RL knows of it. I do know it his own acceptance that makes at least part of this happen. I have done all I can to help him but the real work is his.

Thing is I have always tried to be open minded. I let my kids (male or female) play dress-up when little in both my things and my husband's. They all played with dolls and trucks and I see no ill effects from any of it. All of the kids are excellent cooks, one does it for a living. They bend the gender rules of dress and don't even seem to be aware of it. Just the norm for them all. My husband now tells me he was unaware of that, we worked different shifts often so he would be at work when the kids and I played pretend. After a few years of marriage my hubby started to make snide remarks etc about others. Did the whole " I am man. I am so macho." thingy too. In the mean time I knew nothing about hubby being CD but also knew all my older kids have at least experimented with dressing at one time or another. Seems strange now to think I was the one always defending CD etc to him while he hid in his closet. The boys told me (and in a few cases dressed in front of me with no problems) but were afraid to tell dad. (Ever notice how someone acts one way early in a relationship and you find their true colors much later? DH was coming across as oh so open minded in our early years.) I asked them recently about the dressing again (no they were not uncomfortable talking with me about it. But then I kept the conversation more in the past tense and open to anything they felt they wanted to share with me). I found out they had not told my husband anything and they never even considered telling him. They said they always knew they could tell me anything but not dad. I stood there thinking WTF? They told me they go to Dad for affection (he is usually more openly affectionate than me to others from the get go ~ all my childhood sexual abuse issues make me more stand offish until I get to know someone. I have always been so very careful how I relate physically to my own kids, heck any kids, for fear of the circle continuing. (I often use the hug to the side thingy, feels safer somehow.) The kids would go to their Dad if looking for someone who seemed more emotionally availble by being more physically affectionate. Or to learn how to work on cars but come to me if hurt, sick, confussed, or needed help. I have always had a houseful of kids here, my own and all their freinds. It was not unusal to get late night phone calls or visits at any time from a friend of the kids needing a helping hand or just a hot meal etc... With our own kids however I always assumed they came to us both. I was wrong. ~

How weird I find this after finding out hubby is CD. Reading on the MTF side all generally come across as all loving and excepting of others with any gender issue. Not all the girls but most come across as open minded of ALL others, know what I mean? Any how when I told him about our sons experimenting with CD and sexual gender too he freaked out. He seemed to be so predjudiced. I was afraid to tell him about the sexual experiments they went through. <shutter> How can a CD of all people be so narrow minded?? (How can a person be so narrow minded I should say.)

My concern/problem/question...FINALLY~ A couple of weeks back I was showing our youngest the benefits of pedicures and good foot care (I'm diabetic myself, runs in family). Well, hubby was right there making fun of him and making remarks about boys who wear nail polish. :eek: Actually it was Sally Hanson's hard as nails since the kid's toe nails are splitting and causing lots of pain. I took my husband to one side after making a biting remark about his attitude for my son's benefit. I feel my son needed to hear that defense and acceptance of him so he has no doubts about his being male in my mind and that his mother will defend him even to his father. Also we went over again how most things folks thing of as strictly for females are not. Emotions like empathy and compassion are human not simply female. Things like nice clothes and in lots of colors are for everyone, that no you don't have to be female to like baby blue or even pink for example. And that a nail hardener can be used by anyone. Hubby's defense for giving our son a hard time over pedicure? Eric (son) called his new boots "girly" and upset him (embarassed and/or hurt)> I did point out to both I bought the damn things for dad and they were not too girly for a man to wear and they are in fact MENS boots.

I pointed out Eric is 12 and he is 48. He should be setting example not acting 12 himself. grrrrrrrrrr Good greive I told DH (dear husband) if he had thought about it, it was his own over the top reaction that had our 12 year old ribbing him so much. Kids are forever pushing buttons to get a reaction. He showed our son a big reaction and Eric thinking it was all in fun kept teasing his dad about the damn boots. So my husband acting like an immature child himself took the pedicure as an opportunity to "pay him back." I think DH's own self-doubts has him acting so poorly but I will not allow him to punish or judge anyone else because of his own confused thinking. He can see a TS's POV better since she is TS but his thoughts are that TS is better/more acceptable than CD. At least the t-girl or TS has a reason for the dressing is DHs POV where he is just ****ed up or a pervert. (His thinking not mine)

Jeez, feel like I just wrote the great American novel here. If you're still here with me I apologize. I sure didn't know all this was going to come pouring out of me. Sorry been wound up tighter than an old pocket watch lately. So has anyone else had to deal with CD's (your own or others) who want the world to accept them but then sit in judgement of others? This thought has me steamed to the max. :Angry3: And that it took more than one conversation to get the point across to DH made me even madder.

Hubby did apoligize to our son later...but in my mind it never should have happened and once it did immediate apology was needed not two days later. Anyone else have to confront pride and predjudice in your own home or in the world somewhere where "the underdog" so to speak is behaving poorly towards others? This has me madder than hell and wondering if we need to bitch slap some of them to knock some common sense and decency into them.

End of rant...

One last point> I love the man and he is a decent sort but somedays....I just don't understand this seemingly conflicting outlook on life.

[christine55]

It appears to me that your hubby is still trying to act super manly to compensate for his own feelings of femininity. Many crossdressers who are not out to anyone do this. I spent plenty of years covering up my feminity by heavy drinking and trying to act really manly. With some people this includes making fun of or other wise harassing other men seen as effeminate. Now that he is out to you I find it odd that he still makes fun of his own kids for being CD's.
I don't know the whole story but I do know that hiding deeply personal and intense feelings over many years can do great emotional harm. I have the impression that his being open with you is fairly recent. Seems to me he needs a good swift kick but some compassion as well. Best Wishes for both you and your husband. Don't tolerate the bad stuff he is doing but try to be open and understanding of him and let him know you still love him and are willing to help him through his difficulties.
Hugs, Christine

[Joy Carter]

No doubt about it Mae he is covering up his doubts about his own gender issues. I have been CD since age three or four no doubt in my mind who I was and it made me more tolerant of others. Numerous times while growing up I was called names because I never fit the mold. Even my older brothers always called me a gurl and a sissy for years. I knew who I was just could never accept myself. My two children got a good upbringing as far as socialization. We taught them everyone was equal and that they just might be losing the next best friend if they didn't wait to make a judgment till they knew that person.


Good Luck Kiddo JOY :hugs:

[Calliope]

Recall that 80's term, 'dry drunk'? Sounds like your guy is deep in a 'dry closet.' (We all design the most superb hells when we design them for ourselves.)

He's probably pretty freaked about 'passing on' what for him is a painful (bi-polar) experience with dressing. He needs professional help - but probably won't ever get around to it.

You should focus on your kids. They need info from outside the home - and as much compassion you have ever brought forth.

[dancinginthedark]

[...] spent plenty of years covering up my feminity by heavy drinking and trying to act really manly. With some people this includes making fun of or other wise harassing other men seen as effeminate. Now that he is out to you I find it odd that he still makes fun of his own kids for being CD's. [...] I do know that hiding deeply personal and intense feelings over many years can do great emotional harm. I have the impression that his being open with you is fairly recent. Seems to me he needs a good swift kick but some compassion as well. Best Wishes for both you and your husband. Don't tolerate the bad stuff he is doing but try to be open and understanding of him and let him know you still love him and are willing to help him through his difficulties.Hugs, Christine


Christine your words ring true. I watched helplessly for years as he acted out and used his drug of choice to hide the pain, never knowing what was wrong until he finally told me this Feb after close to 18 years together. I accept his CD-ing more than he does and he'd be the first to admit that. I did the intial freak then he did his and it's still going on for him it seems. I am right there Christine with the tough love coupled with compassion. I ain't going anywhere and he needs to relax long enough to get that fact through that thick head of his.



No doubt about it Mae he is covering up his doubts about his own gender issues. I have been CD since age three or four no doubt in my mind who I was and it made me more tolerant of others. Numerous times while growing up I was called names because I never fit the mold. Even my older brothers always called me a gurl and a sissy for years. I knew who I was just could never accept myself. My two children got a good upbringing as far as socialization. We taught them everyone was equal and that they just might be losing the next best friend if they didn't wait to make a judgment till they knew that person.
Good Luck Kiddo JOY :hugs:

Joy I agree with you and Christine that he is covering for his own fears and doubts too. I' m sorry so many have to suffer through the years because of anothers cruelity and ignorance. I like your point about holding judgement it's so true.



Recall that 80's term, 'dry drunk'? Sounds like your guy is deep in a 'dry closet.' (We all design the most superb hells when we design them for ourselves.)

He's probably pretty freaked about 'passing on' what for him is a painful (bi-polar) experience with dressing. He needs professional help - but probably won't ever get around to it.

You should focus on your kids. They need info from outside the home - and as much compassion you have ever brought forth.

hmmm your comment about passing it on hits home on many levels (I'm bi-polar and so is my oldest child). I hadn't considered he might worry CD-ing or gender issues could be passed on to the children. I never consider any of the kids to be cross-dressers but hubby worrys. I just saw them as my kids and human beings. No worries daytripper I love my family and would rather be set on fire than hurt them. My oldest are all grown now, just the one at home but I would never turn any of them away or turn my back on them.

Food for thought there about his fears about passsing this on though. Thanks for giving me something to maybe open the door to that closet just a bit more for us. I know hubby is seriously conflicted with his dressing and we have talked but I really wish he came here and learned more on how to accept himself/herself. I know he knows he is not a lone now but he still struggles with it. I fear perhaps for some that will never change.

[Joy Carter]

So Mae what's the hang up about him being here ?

[Julie York]

Put simply...It's hard enough accepting CD in yourself...and if you haven't come to terms with it because of living a 'secret' life and an open life...then when you see it in someone else it is excrutiatingly embarrassing. If it is your own son it is even worse because..how do you deal with it? It's embarrassing.

To understand his position, you have to understand the mind set.

In order to continue living your normal life you put this thing in the back of your head, so you don't say dumb things like"Ooooh gorgeous blouse!" whilst at the pub. It's buried and under careful control....Like the ability to use certain words in front of certain people etc.

I imagine you also do self editing about what you think and what you allow yourself to say. Have you ever sworn! Expressed a forceful adult opinion with colourful language? And then in other circumstances worded the same sentiment completely differently? (More tea vicar?)

Well it is like that.

If he is in macho mode (for his own mental protection) then it is very difficult to be all open minded and reasonable when faced with things that require a more open approach, because it requires taking down the protective barrier.

[dancinginthedark]

it's his hang up not mine Joy that keeps him away so much of the time. Self-conciousness? I think that is a part of it. I think. <shrugs> That I am a memeber here? Maybe he doesn't feel he would be free to talk openly knowing I am a member here. [I talked him into joining.] I did tell him he could PM or post in the GM area or I would not read his posts unless he wanted me to read something (I am willing and able to respect his privacy on the MTF forum and would have no access to GM area at all~ it would be damn hard not to read his stuff but I think I could do it. Trying to be honest here since I am the one asking for help or advise here.) He does PM one person here...just not very darn often. Why doesn't he come around here much? hmmm....Doubts and fears? Facing the truth about his dual sides?? That it is so much more real when you are reading and writing about it?? Not so firmly hidden in that damn closet if you step out and make friends here??? I can only guess since I am not him. Maybe some of shy (now or in the past) members could address that one much better than me.


So Mae what's the hang up about him being here ?

[Charleen]

Hi, Mae, Welcome. Wow, hit alot of buttons and memories for me. For me, I went through the emotional ringer many times concerning my dressing. Guilt, shame, thinking there was something severely wrong with because I did not have a choice, and had to dress ect. I was alone in this personal world I didn't create but had to live in and with. Yes I did enjoy dressing in the midst of all of the emotional turmoil, but some time that just added to the guilt I was experiencing. I also turned to drugs and alcohol. Happy to report clean and sober since '83, but didn't really start to understand who I am until this year and in my own way come to personal terms. This site was a god send! It has helped me even in the brief time I have been a member to actually know me. So yeah, I can understand your hubby. He has no idea how to deal with what he probably considers "his" problem nor can understand, so he lashes out. When we see behavior in others that we do not like in ourselves we don't like it 'cause do not like to look at ourselves doing what we perceive we are doing. Don't know if this is of any help, but I do wish you well, and hope he can come to terms with who he is. All of who he is. Love and xxx, Lily

[Julie Avery]

This just looks to me like classic denial.

[EricaCD]

Classic, yes. Denial, not so sure. I think what you are seeing here is a man who is deeply mired in self-doubt and personal shame around his crossdressing. He is overcompensating and lashing out at any force that calls into external consideration the issues that he is failing to resolve internally. And you are absolutely right: when kids find a sore spot, it's in their nature to poke at it.

DayTripper brings up a good point: the fear of "passing it on". Even I feel a little concern about this from time to time, though I am perfectly aware that this is a stupid and irrational worry.

Unfortunately, until your husband works out his internal issues - and there is only so much you can do to help - I don't see an easy way around this. I do think you are squarely within your rights, indeed your duties, as a parent to insist that he rope it in when it comes to overreacting to any gender-bending issues in your kids.

Good luck and hang in there!
Erica

[DonnaT]

His issues with his own dressing suggest to me that he does not want the same thing for your son. thus his comments appear to be aimed at keeping your son away from CDing or doing anything feminine, such as using polish (hardeners even).

This will, of course, make things harder for your son to accept if he is TG also.

Your husband needs to know that in order for your son not to grow up having self doubts and self esteem issues, your husband needs to be more open minded, less critical and more supportive. This is VERY important for your son to grow into a well adjusted adult.

[sandra-leigh]

His issues with his own dressing suggest to me that he does not want the same thing for your son.

I would agree.

It sounds to me like his CD'ing has caused him a lot of emotional distress, and that he doesn't want the children to end up enduring the same thing.

I did not read it in the sense of being afraid of "passing on" the behaviour: more along the lines of "This has really mucked up my life, and it would tear me apart to see any of the children 'make the same mistake'."


He appears to be having a lot of trouble accepting himself, and a lot of pain around the question of why he feels that he has to do it even though in some ways it is making him miserable.

I find that I do not spend much time agonizing over "why" (mentally expoloring how it came about is not the same as agonizing about it). I was thinking just a couple of days ago, that even if it were to turn out to be an "illness" (biological or 'mental'), that it doesn't really matter, because for me it turns out to be a very functional adaptation. When I crossdress, I relax more and plan better and think more clearly; and I socialize much more and talk to people much more -- so crossdressing is helpful to me, whatever the reason for it.

In some ways, I'm noticably more "normal" when I crossdress... is that an oxymoron? :happy:

[Sally24]

Your husband's attitude towards his crossdressing seems to show that he doesn't understand and hasn't come to terms with himself. From your description I would assume he's near or in his 40's. If he's still having problems at this stage he really should think about having some kind of counseling. I would suspect that he would not be interested talking to professionals but you should try to point him in that direction, if you haven't already tried.

Outside of counseling, if you can't even get him to talk to people on a forum like this, then you might have to play the waiting game. His attitude may change as your children get older and you move into a different stage of your lives. If not, you at least have the right attitude in confronting him when he is not behaving rationally. Keeping up some kind of dialog, and not letting him retreat inside himself are very important.

You might encourage him to join this group under a avatar/name that you don't know. Don't know if that's his hang-up or not.

We're all here to help each other so hang in there!

Sally

[dancinginthedark]

I didn't expect this. I am reading and trying to absorb it all. While all of what I am reading rings true and some served as a reminder, I will admit that some of you ladies stunned me as it never occurred (Julie York's post about embarassment comes to mind). I appriecate the time and thought that went into each and every post. Yes, even Julie Avery's short sweet and straight from the hip thoughts help me wrap my mind around all of this. I do get that he has to work it all out but... if I can understand more of those pitfalls and rough times it enables me to be more sympathic/understanding. Maybe fewer knee jerk reactions on my part out of ignorance. Some days I feel like I am some New World explorer trying to find the promised land...without a map. I will hit the "print" button and ask hubby to read these as well. I asked him to come to the site but he says time constraints make it just too difficult due to over-time at work. ~~

Just want you to know that I am here still reading and thinking and trying to get it. I will post more later. Thanks to you wheter you posted, PM-ed, or just thought of us - it all helps.
:hugs:

[Michelle_cd_girl]

I would agree.

It sounds to me like his CD'ing has caused him a lot of emotional distress, and that he doesn't want the children to end up enduring the same thing.

I did not read it in the sense of being afraid of "passing on" the behaviour: more along the lines of "This has really mucked up my life, and it would tear me apart to see any of the children 'make the same mistake'."


He appears to be having a lot of trouble accepting himself, and a lot of pain around the question of why he feels that he has to do it even though in some ways it is making him miserable.

I find that I do not spend much time agonizing over "why" (mentally expoloring how it came about is not the same as agonizing about it). I was thinking just a couple of days ago, that even if it were to turn out to be an "illness" (biological or 'mental'), that it doesn't really matter, because for me it turns out to be a very functional adaptation. When I crossdress, I relax more and plan better and think more clearly; and I socialize much more and talk to people much more -- so crossdressing is helpful to me, whatever the reason for it.

In some ways, I'm noticably more "normal" when I crossdress... is that an oxymoron? :happy:
I agree. I know that when I see my boys acting "girly" I do all that I can to discourage it, and my wife occasionally gives me the "like you should judge this?" look. I don't do it because I want to pick on them for MY issues, but because this lifestyle puts a person through years of hell, instability, and collateral relationship damage until you come to terms with it. I don't want them to suffer the same grief I've suffered over the years.

Maybe that's the wrong approach; in doing that, we're causing them to repress their curiosities and self-expression that may otherwise simply be temporary detours... creating things that may come back to haunt them later. Perhaps what we should be doing is finding them a different outlet through which they can express this element of themselves.

[dancinginthedark]

Put simply...It's hard enough accepting CD in yourself...and if you haven't come to terms with it because of living a 'secret' life and an open life...then when you see it in someone else it is excrutiatingly embarrassing. If it is your own son it is even worse because..how do you deal with it? It's embarrassing.

I admit it this one shocked the h3ll out of me Julie. I never considered he might be embarassed. I can almost wrap the thought around my mind about the secret and all but wouldn't you want to take every opportunity to educate folks and disspell the myths? Knowing how hard it is for him so why not work to make this all so common place that no one sees it as abnormal??? Every time someone speaks up a tiny chip is taken out of this wall surrounding you. This is his life and all of yours too why not take those uncomfortable things that come up from time to time think about it and have ready to use responses geared to educate the ignorant masses...elimate knee jerk responses and make things better all around? Everyone has a POV and no one need know of the CD if you present it as a right verses wrong thing. It is wrong to judge another or make them feel less than etc Even if we can't convert them all at least we can feel better because we acted instead of reacted. And isn't that better than feelings of helplessness, despair and shame?



To understand his position, you have to understand the mind set.
In order to continue living your normal life you put this thing in the back of your head, so you don't say dumb things like"Ooooh gorgeous blouse!" whilst at the pub. It's buried and under careful control....Like the ability to use certain words in front of certain people etc.
[...]If he is in macho mode (for his own mental protection) then it is very difficult to be all open minded and reasonable when faced with things that require a more open approach, because it requires taking down the protective barrier.

I can understand that. It helps me see how his mind could be working. I have done simular things as you showed me and do them so much I don't even have to think over much when I do them. And it isn't just the word choice curse words for example but other things. Like you say blurting out, "Ooooh gorgeous blouse!" could very well lead to an ackward moment to say the least.


Hi, Mae, Welcome. Wow, hit alot of buttons and memories for me. For me, I went through the emotional ringer many times concerning my dressing. Guilt, shame, thinking there was something severely wrong with because I did not have a choice, and had to dress ect. I was alone [...]did enjoy dressing ... but some time that just added to the guilt ... .turned to drugs and alcohol. Happy to report clean and sober since '83, but didn't really start to understand who I am until this year and in my own way come to personal terms. ..He has no idea how to deal with what he probably considers "his" problem nor can understand, so he lashes out. When we see behavior in others that we do not like in ourselves we don't like it 'cause do not like to look at ourselves doing what we perceive we are doing. Don't know if this is of any help, but I do wish you well, and hope he can come to terms with who he is. All of who he is. Love and xxx, Lily

Lily thank you for your words and yes they do help me and in turn help him. :cheers: on your sobrity. 22 years is something to feel both blessed and proud of. My husband has been working the program since December. I see the lashing out behavior for what it is more clearly now. Reading your words helps me put it into a perspective I can understand better. Seeing something in another that we hate or can't understand in ourselves let alone another is very hard. Thank you for the well wishes.


This just looks to me like classic denial.

Ah Julie a woman who knows how to say so much with just a handful of words. Thank you.


Classic, yes. Denial, not so sure. I think what you are seeing here is a man who is deeply mired in self-doubt and personal shame around his crossdressing. He is overcompensating and lashing out at any force that calls into external consideration the issues that he is failing to resolve internally. And you are absolutely right: when kids find a sore spot, it's in their nature to poke at it.
DayTripper brings up a good point: the fear of "passing it on". Even I feel a little concern about this from time to time, though I am perfectly aware that this is a stupid and irrational worry.
Unfortunately, until your husband works out his internal issues - and there is only so much you can do to help - I don't see an easy way around this. I do think you are squarely within your rights, indeed your duties, as a parent to insist that he rope it in when it comes to overreacting to any gender-bending issues in your kids.

Good luck and hang in there!
Erica

Ericia as per your norm you make so much sense and offer insight to things I sometimes miss or forget as time goes by. Life goes along and you put it on the back burner so to speak so you miss what would have been obvious to you had you been thinking about it. I had assumed it was denial when I first thought it over thoughly but this self-doubt and shame really seems closer to it.
I do thank you for seeing my reactions to this a mother's love and duty to a child. I try hard not to lose that balance where I don't over compensate towards a child over my spouse but this time it was important to stop the circle of shame. The over reacting may be the thing that pushes buttons in my child and makes what should be acceptable something shameful.

[Julie York]

Basically, you are acting correctly by gut instinct. We could all write essays on it but you are doing fine.:thumbsup:

[dancinginthedark]

Donna T, Tess-Leigh and Sally I wanted to say thank you for your insight. Your words do make a lot of sense to me. You were right on the money Sally we are in our 40s. I will suggest he try counseling but I won't be holding my breath.

I admit I had to get my knee jerk reactions out of the way to let any of these posts sink in for me. I was in full parenting mode and looking out for my son. In other words I was still mad at my husband. I love the man but he can be a [nasty word here].

So I read and then re-read all these posts a few times. Sometimes you really have to let it sink in a little bit at a time to get to that "aha" moment where the little light blub goes off over your head. :rolleyes:

Julie my dear, what can I say. You are a jewel.

[jai.says]

Mae,

So much has been said about your moving post; I just wanted to add my own thoughts, as my father treated me in a similar way as your husband treated your son.

From a very young age, my father began to punish me if I showed any sign of weakness or any attribute that fell outside the social norms [his conception] of "maleness." I cannot even begin to describe the damage that this did to me. I developed a thick male mask and became, in essence, a shell of a person. All of my uniqueness was buried and all that remained was my perception of what it meant to be male. In short, I wasn't even a real person, but rather a conglomeration of copied behaviors -- picked up from my father and from other male friends. Even worse, I tried to be the macho man -- complete with homophobia.

As I began to face my CD tendencies and bisexuality, I found gay pornography on my father's computer and in an instant, my childhood made sense. My father had deeply buried his own sexuality issues -- which, I am certain, caused him great pain -- and out of fear of watching his son suffer the same fate, he tried to stop it artificially. In the process, he damaged himself and he damaged his child. This is the danger you are facing with your kids.

Importantly, my father is not a bad man. Quite the opposite. I'm sure your husband is, at heart, a good man as well. Yet, my father changed me -- he violated my personality -- and my life has now become a wonderful and difficult quest to find myself again. It has been a painful experience that continues to this day.

You have beautiful instincts to have found these forums and to seek help for yourself [in dealing with these issues] and for your husband [in coming to terms with his CDing]. I wonder if his father treated him in the same way? Or his father's father and on and on and on???

Above all else, don't second guess yourself and do not stop; I wish my mother had been as proactive as you. It would have changed my life.

All my love,

jai

[tekla west]

Self-Acceptance is the only acceptance that is worth having. Everything stems from that.

Its funny in its own way, but among the people I know who have the least problem with the CD deal are a few Hell's Angles. In part there is a shared outlaw deal I think, but the real key is that they KNOW who they are, they know what they are. I'm no threat to them.

There are times when people who feel harshly judged give themselves that right in return. And the girls are right about the shame deal, and its a very toxic emotion that eats away at at self esteem and self acceptance like acid on iron. The deeper he internalized it, the harder it is to get rid of.

I raised two fine boys, both now in college, one on the professional student route (just like dad) and one on the "get if over with fast" route (just like dad recommended). As far as I know they do not CD, or have gender issues. One has been dating the same women for years and years now, a very nice, very straight girl, her in a sorority, and him in a frat (Not my suggestion, but what the heck.) The other seems to prefer the arty type with more tattoos than a sailor and enough piercing to keep a Black and Decker drill working overtime. As I recall, the hardest part about raising them was to maintain being an adult. Its easy to slip to their level, as they understand it so well. Since I was the stay at home parent, I taught them to do all that domestic stuff. In part, because I needed them to help, and in part it seemed to me that boys too should be able to do their own laundry, cook dinner for themselves and keep house a stage or two above pig stye level.

But I also taught them to fish, to work on cars and motorcycles, to shoot guns, play baseball and all that guy stuff too. I never saw any conflict in the two.

By all means, make sure he does not pass that shame off onto the kids. Insist he act like an adult, and if that means that the kid needs nail strengthener to prevent injury, then he ought to be happy the solution is that easy. Anyone who is 48 and is worried about what a 12 year old would say about footwear needs to work that out, and not with the kid.

I sing a lot of little songs to myself to remind me of things, and one of my favorites is REMs "Loosing My Religion"

Life is bigger
It's bigger than you
And you are not me

He is the Dad, and that is not the kid. If I could write an 11th commandment I sometimes think it would be "Thou shalt not project onto others - ESPECIALLY YOUR CHILDREN." They are not you. Their life will not be your life.

And in having to choose between a spouse and the child, its an easy choice, the spouse, being an adult, is assumed to be able to take care of himself, and to handle himself, a child is in your protection, and the child is a direct responsibility.

The recovery process weighs heavy on all this too. Particularly at the six month to a year point. I've seen it work for some, fail for others, and there is a group who goes into recovery and never comes out. Recovery becomes the new addiction. Its also problematic in that few things in the world are as ME centered as the recovery process, despite all the higher power stuff. Trouble is, what got them to that place was way too much ME to begin with. What most people in recovery need is someone with a 2x4 to smack them about the head and tell them that "ITS NOT ALL ABOUT YOU." And, from having watched a lot of people walk that road I also know that those addictions were symptoms of some underlying deal, and if that underlying problem is not addressed all the higher powers in the universe will not help. So working the program is PART of the process, but not the alpha and omega. It seems that the anger, the lashing out, the harsh judgments are most likely rooted exactly where the addictions was, and that needs something more than a cup of coffee and a few shares to overcome. Sorry if that sounds harsh on my part, but like I said, I have seen far too much of this in my life to pretend its any different.

[Lisa Golightly]

I think he's jealous of the freedom that your children enjoy. It is sometimes cloying to see each new generation take things for granted that even twenty years ago we were attacked for... That is also implied in his attitude to crossdressing. He needs to break the shackles of the morality of his past... the world has moved on, so must he.

[simonep]

What a thoughtful thread, I wish I could offer an intelligent answer but I feel I cannot offer anything other than my best wishes.

Love

Simone

[dancinginthedark]

Jai your words brought tears to my eyes. I am so sorry you had to endure this pain as a child and the carry-over into adulthood. This is what I feared when my husband reacted like he did. My fear was DH's behavior towards our son and his fear of sharing his fate with our son may have sealed our son's fate. One of shame and loathing and suffering to accept in yourself what others wouldn't. I won't allow that to happen.

tekla I have a 2X4 and I know how to use it. (mostly kidding) It seems like a catch 22 thing for a CD father. Not knowing until time tells if the over the top macho thing and snide remarks or your encouragement of son's more sensitive side was the right move. How awful to think your fear of an unknown future could cost your child their's. I have no idea at this time if any of my children are TG, but you know what? The defenitive words here are my children. All I want them to be when they grow up is happy and healthy the rest will take care of itself. Thank you for your very thoughtful post and all the time you took to talk with me. :hugs:

Lisa it could be resentment towards the freedom younger generations have or ignorance that this very freedom even extends to the gender issues he faced as a child that has him behaving like it is still 1960's or 70's.

Simone thank you for the well wishes. And is that you in the avatar? If it is I may just have to bitch slap you for looking just that good. :D

[typical_guy]

I don't want to personalize this too much since that what I find myself doing frequently on this forum but I don't see any way to avoid it here.

I was VERY unhappy about who I was. I hated that I liked dressing up, I tried like hell not to do it for so long even though I had been doing it since I was 5 years old. This caused GREAT distress in me and eventually depression and suicidal thoughts. After seeing a therapist for a while I've started to accept myself and let me tell you this - it's the honest to god truth - I feel like I'm LIVING instead of GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS OF LIFE for the first time since I was a small child. I Know that's sad sounding but it's the truth.

Maybe you should suggest therapy for your husband. It could help him accept this in himself too.

Like I said, I personalized it but it's worked for me and would like to believe that it would work for others in similar stuations.

[dancinginthedark]

I don't want to personalize this too much since that what I find myself doing frequently on this forum but I don't see any way to avoid it here.
I was VERY unhappy about who I was. I hated that I liked dressing up, I tried like hell not to do it for so long even though I had been doing it since I was 5 years old. This caused GREAT distress in me and eventually depression and suicidal thoughts. After seeing a therapist for a while I've started to accept myself and let me tell you this - it's the honest to god truth - I feel like I'm LIVING instead of GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS OF LIFE for the first time since I was a small child. I Know that's sad sounding but it's the truth.
Maybe you should suggest therapy for your husband. It could help him accept this in himself too.
Like I said, I personalized it but it's worked for me and would like to believe that it would work for others in similar stuations.
Well kiddo I think all of our opinions tend to be personalized. :p I have suggested hubby do counseling in the past but intend to bring it up again. From what I understand he has been dressing since a very young boy and has done so every year with some variance in the freqency. Until he confided in me about wearing ladies wear he did not assosicate this with being a CD. I spoke with him for quite some time before he could even say the words, "I am a Crossdresser." He didn't like it. And he surely didn't like me at that moment either since it was me who said the words first when I said so you are a crossdresser then. ewwwwwwww the look on his face was not pleasant when he heard me say those words. I was not being judgemental but that was the only term I knew to apply to his behavior as I knew it from the little he said. I am happy to read that counseling has enabled you to move forward in life. It gives me hope. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me.

[dancinginthedark]

I agree. I know that when I see my boys acting "girly" I do all that I can to discourage it, and my wife occasionally gives me the "like you should judge this?" look. I don't do it because I want to pick on them for MY issues, but because this lifestyle puts a person through years of hell, instability, and collateral relationship damage until you come to terms with it. I don't want them to suffer the same grief I've suffered over the years.

Maybe that's the wrong approach; in doing that, we're causing them to repress their curiosities and self-expression that may otherwise simply be temporary detours... creating things that may come back to haunt them later. Perhaps what we should be doing is finding them a different outlet through which they can express this element of themselves.


I apolgize Michelle I think I forgot or missed you somehow. I think your post says it well and voices some of my own fears where you say what I highlighted in bold. Thanks for sharing and the time you took to do it.

[simonep]

No its not me, just like the picture and the lingerie. We all have to have our fantasies..

Love Simone

[dancinginthedark]

No its not me, just like the picture and the lingerie. We all have to have our fantasies..

Love Simone

Simone,
Oh. Okay kewl. Mine isn't really me either. :heehee:

[flatlander_48]

Before I add my 2 cents, I want to recognize the folks on the forum. It feels very good and very reassuring to me to notice the degree of kindness and collective intelligence that is displayed here. Truly remarkable...

Anyway, in thinking about the behaviors that have been discussed here, I think about closeted gay politicians who support the DOMA and don't support hate crimes legislation. The public part is the surface of what is going on internally for people. For some, the struggle never gets resolved. For others, people are forced into some degree of resolution because their innermost secrets are suddenly made public. This is unfortunate, but sometimes it happens.

From my own experience, as I was beginning to think about how sexuality applied to me, I noticed that I was very critical in evaluating the appearance and behaviors of gay men and lesbians. It's like I was saying "I'm not like them." as a way of defining my space as different from "those people". In other words, it is like playing out self-delusion while trying to run away from the truth. What I eventually realized was that I had some of those traits and behaviors that I saw in effeminate men and butch women. Not everything, but enough to begin to understand that I was a collection of some very disparate thought processes. What I also came to understand was that having a range of thoughts and feelings wasn't bad, but it sure was confusing. The confusion part is perhaps the most difficult. We want things to come together in nice neat packages, but dealing with anything even remotely related to sexuality is usually the opposite of nice and neat.

If we are fortunate, the significant people in our lives are also ones who can see through the B/S that we are throwing out while we are busy being confused and in denial. Aberrant behavior is just that and doesn't reflect our true selves, but sometimes it is very easy to forget that.

[melissacd]

It took me 36 years to admit to myself that it was okay to be a cross dresser. It has taken the last 2 years to get used to the fact that rationally I have given myself permission to be who I am. In as much as we want to be who we are, many of us are ashamed of it anyway. There is still a big struggle going on inside. Many years of repression and shame are hard to get past even when someone we love is accepting. It is even harder when someone we thought we loved is sort of accepting in a non-supportive way (try and make sense of that statement) ;). There are many walls and barriers that have to be dismantled. This is not something that anyone gets past in an afternoon, this takes years of reflection, actions that build confidence, positive feedback, support and acceptance. This is a major re-programming exercise.

[bgirl]

My My MY! Hello Mae! I would bet he judges himself as harshly as he judges others. Before I was able to say that I was a crossdresser, cross-gender people of any degree made me squemish. I didn't do it. No body saw me. You can't prove a thing, man! In my case the absence of denial brings an absence of judgement. I still fight it sometimes. And when I do the judgement always starts with my self. In my better days I embrace all of you, in my bitter days I judge myself harshly, then start with the others. This forum is an excelent place to practice equanimity. Sitting in the absence of judgement.

[vbcdgrl]

This isn't gonna be easy, Mae, but, perhaps your hubby needs to see a psychologist. Not because of the CDing, but because of his inner conflict between "macho" and his "feminine side". He's got to work that out, or he won't be happy.
The fact that he apologized means he at least thought better of his actions later. That's a good thing.


Vikki

[tekla west]

The title of your post got me thinking of my favorite quote by John Ruskin "“In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes.” So hubby needs to suck up the pride and try truth. The truth will set you free after all.

Funny, as I was reading this here over coffee I've got Eddie Vetter (I'm a huge Pearl Jam fan) screaming at the top of his lungs ... "It's evolution baby!"

Could the rise in men crossing these lines be a type of social and cultural evolution? I sure don't need to go past today's headlines to argue that as a race, a species, we best drop a whole lot of the competition, the war/aggression factor, the greed and exploration attitudes that are traditionally considered male if we hope to see the next century.

Are more men becoming "softer," more "gentle" and less "men"? We can only hope and pray that such is so.

Moreover, all of this is not of one kind or type. Some are into a sexual aspect, put on the panties & get off. Others are much deeper into things that 'traditionally' are considered feminine, domestic arts, beauty and child-rearing. And most fall somewhere in-between those two extremes. Before hubby can face this, he has to know it, to know it begins with not lying to himself. That self-acceptance deal again.

As for relations with the kids, he has to be aware that the world has changed, and is changing. Gender is a much more fluid concept now than it was before. Poor Day Tripper, back in the day when women could not take shop, and guys could not take Home Ec. In 1973 I became the first guy to take home ec at my high-school. That was the fall semester. By spring over half the football team had signed up, deciding that a) making brownies was its own reward and/or b) that in a college prep atmosphere an easy A is just that, fodder for the GPA. We would not consider not letting a young woman take shop now, and home ec is not just for girls. All that in a few decades.

Only vaguely off the topic, I run fetish parties now and again and I wonder "What did the people with rubber fetishes do before the invention of rubber?" What did the people who have a deep fetish for frilly lace trimmed lingerie do before the industrial revolution made such items widespread? - Obviously I have too much time on my hands at these events. But again, perhaps its evolution baby. If these people can accept themselves, (and be quite happy in it at that) then why not him? Is a much shorter journey for sure.

As I'm sure many of the gurls and bois here will attest:

“There comes a time when you have to stand up and shout:

This is me damn it! I look the way I look, think the way I think, feel the way I feel, love the way I love! I am a whole complex package. Take me... or leave me. Accept me - or walk away! Do not try to make me feel like less of a person, just because I don't fit your idea of who I should be and don't try to change me to fit your mold. If I need to change, I alone will make that decision.

When you are strong enough to love yourself 100%, good and bad - you will be amazed at the opportunities that life presents you.”

As I stated at the start of the first post, self-acceptance is the only one that matters. Like the recovery deal, it only starts when you can say it. When you accept it.

[Dixie Darling]

The short version of your husband's problem is simply the fact that he has never learned to accept HIMSELF as being a crossdresser. The "front" that he's putting up by being critical of others in the way he's doing is a defense mechanism used to throw others off the scent that HE enjoys dressing enfemme. If he could ever get past the point of admitting to himself that he IS a crossdresser, and begin to accept it, I would imagine that you would see a change in his attitude towards others.

There is also another possibility for his attitude. He's aware of the burdens of being a crossdresser and it could be that he THINKS he can possibly discourage such a choice by his children. Now I'm pretty sure that by now you're aware that none of us are CDs by CHOICE, so the idea that he might be able to head it off by being negative about it isn't going to hold water either.

His idea that CDs are "perverts" in comparison to TS's (who he says at least know what they want and where they're going) would be about as accurate as saying that refrigerators are in big demand by Eskimos. And it may come as a shock to him, but there are a lot more heterosexual crossdressers walking around in our society than there are transsexuals.

Just at a guess I would say that he needs to research crossdressing and if he's not already a mamber here, he needs to join this forum and start learning that there are tens of thousands of CDs who have the same NEED that he does.

Finally, my hat's off to YOU for your understanding and acceptance. Not just of your husband, but for all crossdressers. It takes a very SPECIAL GG to see beyond the feminine finery and recognize that there's a NEED for crossdresser's doing what they do, and you seem to be one of the few who were able to understand this.

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

[sandra-leigh]

His idea that CDs are "perverts" in comparison to TS's (who he says at least know what they want and where they're going) would be about as accurate as saying that refrigerators are in big demand by Eskimos.

Your meaning in that paragraph seems to have gone over my head.

The traditional Inuit nomad way of life is greatly in abeyance -- they are having to make special efforts to record and revive before the elders who still remember the skills and stories die out completely.

The newer Inuit way of life tends to be in more fixed settlements. And yes, they do use refrigerators. During summer it is above freezing and they want their food kept cool, and in winter it is -too- cold out for convenient storage.

The purpose of a refrigerator is not to keep things -cold-, the purpose of a refrigerator is to keep things at a useful temperature, cold enough to inhibit spoilage, but warm enough to not freeze or wilt from the cold.

[dancinginthedark]

Before I add my 2 cents, I want to recognize the folks on the forum. It feels very good and very reassuring to me to notice the degree of kindness and collective intelligence that is displayed here. Truly remarkable...

I agree completely. This isn't just a forum this is my extended family.



From my own experience, as I was beginning to think about how sexuality applied to me, I noticed that I was very critical in evaluating the appearance and behaviors of gay men and lesbians. It's like I was saying "I'm not like them." as a way of defining my space as different from "those people"[...]I had some of those traits and behaviors that I saw in effeminate men and butch women. [...] What I also came to understand was that having a range of thoughts and feelings wasn't bad, but it sure was confusing. The confusion part is perhaps the most difficult. We want things to come together in nice neat packages, but dealing with anything even remotely related to sexuality is usually the opposite of nice and neat.


There is also another possibility for his attitude. He's aware of the burdens of being a crossdresser and it could be that he THINKS he can possibly discourage such a choice by his children. Now I'm pretty sure that by now you're aware that none of us are CDs by CHOICE, so the idea that he might be able to head it off by being negative about it isn't going to hold water either.

Denial, shame, and the confusion linked to them are very hard to over come. One of the reasons I was so quick to come to my son's defense. I know the over the top behavior that was perhaps meant to discourage/stop the possibility of my son gowning into a CD would have no affect to stop that. As Dixie says it isn't a choice, but what is worse here is would this negative behavior towards a child encourage the pain, rejection, and shame seen so often here? I have to believe it would. If they had never been made to feel poorly about themselves in the first place and instead been accepted as the unique and lovable children they were the need for self-acceptance would not be needed ~ it would ALREADY be there. So behavior meant to save a son instead seals the child's fate to that of the father. Just my .02