Choices and more

[noname]

I went out the other day and looking at jeans in the womens section. I could not believe the number of pant choices for women. Has anyone every been browsing and though 'oh my word' , because I was really in shock as to amount of choices that are available. Pants in the womens section came in more than just denim, all kinds of demin, all kinds of pant lengths, from super casual to dress and everything inbetween.

Why don't guys offered these same choices? I have to wonder why so many fabrics are considered fem? In fact my wife pointed out the other day a kid with his mom and he was wearing womens jeans. I mean reallly, it would seem to me the fashion indurstry has completely missed the boat on fashion here if guys are going else where for clothes. Oh wait, I forgot it's too easy and cheap to keep selling the same clothes.

[Wenda]

I know what you mean! Although I have three pairs of very nice jeans, two pair of leather-look, a pair of black velvet, a nice pair of black linen with sexy little white highlights at the bottoms of the legs, highlighted by the fact that the bottom 8 inches or so of the seam is open, I HAD to have another pair. I walked into the Sears cleanance centre, and they they were, calling to me. Dark brown suede-look, lined, in my size, originally on for $49, now $15. I offered to give them a good home on the spot. Yup, I hear you!

[Casey Morgan]

I think this largely has to do with something that male culture is still structured around even though we're embarrassed to admit it: homophobia. I don't claim to know what things are like for the twentysomethings. But many of the stores still see their target audience as being late twenties and older, so my experiences and those of people older than me are still prevalent.

Yes we flirted with hot pink some years ago. But let's be honest about it. How much of that was us trying to distance ourselves from that undercurrent of homophobia? How much of that was us simply admitting that we were raised homophobic and we were ashamed of that? So wearing hot pink became our way of showing ourselves more than showing anybody else that despite what we were taught to believe we're trying to be OK with homosexuality?

We see that all too often on these boards. MTFs who feel the need to proclaim they're not gay after standing up for gays and lesbians. Face it, that's why we feel so compelled to say "not that there's anything wrong with that". Because inside we're still fighting all those things that told us that yes there's something wrong with that, there's something terribly wrong with that. We're trying to overcome our upbringing. We really want to be OK with homosexuality, and we're working to get there.

Come on, how many here remember when there was a "gay ear" for guys, when if you got that ear pierced it "meant" you were gay? And it's not much different when it comes to clothes. Why can't we wear certain fabrics or colors? Because we've been raised to believe that doing so would send the message that we're gay. But we're not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that. (Those last two sentences are there purposely to illustrate my point.)

How many men still feel that undercurrent of homophobia and simply back away from "sending gay signals" no matter how they feel about gay men? You want men 30+ years old to wear cetain color and fabrics? Lots of luck Charlie. That's not going to happen until people raised in the male culture (whether they're men or not) stand up and say "hey, what's with that whole undercurrent of homophobia thing?"

It pervades more than how men dress. Why all the locker room bravado? Because if you're too comfortable around naked men, so the teachings went, then you're probably gay. So we learned in gym class that if we beat our chests and went overboard on being macho then nobody would have any reason to think we were gay. Heck, WE wouldn't have any reason to think we were gay. And there was a time when being OK with homosexuality automatically meant that you were gay.

I apologize in advance if this next statement comes across as sexist; it isn't meant to be. But it's those of us who got changed in the men's/boy's locker room in school who have to be the ones to shine the light on just how insidiously homophobia pervades the male culture if we want it to die at its heart. We're the ones who created it and we're the ones who perpetuated it, so we're the ones who have to change it. It came from within and, in part at least, the change must also come from within.

So to answer the question, why aren't men offered the same choices as women? Because for too long men have been afraid of those choices. And until what lies behind that fear is exposed for what it is and is brought into the light of day, men aren't going to accept those choices even if those choices are offered.

[Stephenie S]

Yes, I agree. See my other post today on the subject of hate.

I still get this today. I showed up at work with my ears peirced and the one woman who has been so vocal about my appearance lately nearly had a heart attack. Somehow, to her there was a particular ear I was supossed to peirce, but NEVER both. Well, what could I say? I have heard of this but never learned the rules. Besides what good is piercing only one?

This woman has stated that a man wearing pink is the same as a woman standing to pee! That's just about the worst analogy I have ever heard. I think there might be a bit of homophobia going on there. And don't you notice that the ones who are so vocal are the ones who are most afraid of those feelings in themselves?

Steph

[CaptLex]

It's those of us who got changed in the men's/boy's locker room in school who have to be the ones to shine the light on just how insidiously homophobia pervades the male culture if we want it to die at its heart. We're the ones who created it and we're the ones who perpetuated it, so we're the ones who have to change it. It came from within and, in part at least, the change must also come from within.
Hear, hear! :clap: :clap: Good post, Shari Ann. :thumbsup:

[tekla west]

"a man wearing pink is the same as a woman standing to pee"

Tell her that's silly. Wearing pink never requires a mop afterwards.

[kathy gg]

Quess she would hate this outfit...huh?http://www.internationalmale.com/HanoverAssets/intmale/GlobalMenu/promo1.jpg



This woman has stated that a man wearing pink is the same as a woman standing to pee! That's just about the worst analogy I have ever heard. I think there might be a bit of homophobia going on there. And don't you notice that the ones who are so vocal are the ones who are most afraid of those feelings in themselves?

Steph

[myMichelle]

This woman has stated that a man wearing pink is the same as a woman standing to pee! That's just about the worst analogy I have ever heard. I

Steph[/QUOTE]

This gal would have a field day if she had to work with me...I broke my wrist and I chose a hot pink cast! Six whole weeks of hot pink! Yeah!:D

[Casey Morgan]

And where do you think that woman got those ideas from? Men most likely. Which isn't to say that women aren't homophobic. Just that she has probably heard those things time and time again from men.

Let's face it, male culture defines itself. When women as a group tell men as a group how men are supposed to think, act, dress, etc. and men don't agree, women get an earful. (And yet men have no problem telling women how to think, act, dress, etc. and get rather offended when women don't agree. Can you say "male privilege"? I knew that you could.)

Think back to where you first heard the rules. From one of your buddies probably. And if it was from one of the girls (remember we're going back to junior high and high school here) you can bet you could follow the trail back to a guy. We buy this crap and pass it on. So to a large degree that's where women get these ideas. From us. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here.)

Do you see how insidious this is? It's gotten out of the locker room and the school halls and been put out there for all to see. And left to our own devices we're not going to talk about the root of all this. And so it gets perpetuated and passed down. If your sons and nephews haven't been exposed to this yet they probably will be before long.

Do you realize that most of the rules we break as MTFs have their roots in that pervasive, hidden homophobia? Why can't we wear dresses? Because people would think we're gay. Why can't we wear makeup and jewelery? Because people would think we're gay. Why can't we cry at a movie or give another guy a hug when he's hurting? Because people would think we're gay. Why can't we enjoy shopping for clothes (even men's clothes), enjoy cooking, take pride in keeping a clean house, or use the word "pretty" unless we're describing something feminine? Because people would think we're gay.

You want to be free from persecution? You want to stop hiding who you are inside? You want to enjoy the things you enjoy? Then we need to admit that male culture is based in homophobia and start figuring out how the heck we're going to change that. In a very real way we ARE the society we want to change.