Reverse discrimination

[GG Vanya]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

[JenniferMint]

I'm not sure if I follow you. How does CDs wanting to wear dresses infringe upon GGs wanting to wear pants?

[Sarah Rabbit]

I do not get where you are coming from Vanya. I would read such comments as ' I wish I could wear clothes of the opposite sex without anyone batting an eyelid' which is exactly what a female can do, it's just harmless envy. I don't think anyone, other than an old fuddy duddy would worry what a GG wears.

Hugs, Sarah R. :bunny:

[Jesse69]

I have seen and heard women call other women faggots for wearing a men's polo shirt, so women get bitched too for crossdressing.

[TammyB]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."


Yes, I keep reading that aswell.

Whilst I think there is some truth in the idea that women in general have more clothing freedom than men do, it isnt crossdressing. If the implication is that FtMs have it easier then I just dont think its true.

[GG Vanya]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37046

This thread in the lounge is an example of what I'm trying to point out. It seems to be a "lament" if you will, that women don't wear dresses/skirts, and the fact that it makes it more difficult for CD's to go out without being read.

And no, I absolutely do not think F2M's have it easier. I think they have it much tougher than M2F's.

Let me try to word it this way:

It seems that, with few exceptions, every time the "women don't dress feminine anymore" topic surfaces, it has a negative/critical slant to it. Please don't criticize us for doing exactly what you wish to do: Dress as you choose!

[bgirl]

No discrimination here. Why would I want to deny you something that I want for myself? My wife was thinking about this when this (CD) all come out and said ,"it not fair is it, that I can wear what ever I want and nobody says a thing." And I replied that life isn't always fair. If it wasn't this then it would probably be something else.

Did you know that men used to wear knee britches(capris) hose,high heels, wigs and earings all as a normal mans atire? Some of them wrote the Constitution. Things have changed a little scince then. I think I,ll cling to the old ways from time to time. I hate being so conservitive, it feels so liberal.

[TammyB]

And no, I absolutely do not think F2M's have it easier. I think they have it much tougher than M2F's.


Oops!, I meant that those who whine "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it." might think this. Not you :)



It seems that, with few exceptions, every time the "women don't dress feminine anymore" topic surfaces, it has a negative/critical slant to it. Please don't criticize us for doing exactly what you wish to do: Dress as you choose!

I totally agree. Its hypocritical.

[GG Vanya]

No discrimination here. Why would I want to deny you something that I want for myself? My wife was thinking about this when this (CD) all come out and said ,"it not fair is it, that I can wear what ever I want and nobody says a thing." And I replied that life isn't always fair. If it wasn't this then it would probably be something else.

Did you know that men used to wear knee britches(capris) hose,high heels, wigs and earings all as a normal mans atire? Some of them wrote the Constitution. Things have changed a little scince then. I think I,ll cling to the old ways from time to time. I hate being so conservitive, it feels so liberal.

I absolutely agree that it's not fair that women can wear what they choose. And yes, I remember how men dressed when the USA was in its infancy.

What bothers me, as I said above, is the negativity implied when CD's criticize us for not wearing skirts and dresses.

[bgirl]

I guess I didn,t notice that CDers complained about the demize of skirted and dressed women. My wife never wears skirts or dresses and I'm fine with that. I don't let my preference in clothes color her choices. At a recent CD event we went to, most of the GG's wore pants or shorts and is often the case. If mention is made of it a common reply has been " someone has to wear the pants around here" As to history, when I am dressed as a man in period correct clothing, I do not feel like I am crossdressing. Same thing happens when I wear a kilt. It a mans atire. Its like ordering Coke and all they have is Pepsi, it will do but its not the real thing. My wife rolls her eyes on this and I,m not allowed to wear kilts out of the house either. T.his has been fun but I gotta go now. Beth

[Charleen]

I can understand some what where you are coming from, but please don't put it out as a blanket comdenation of "us" verses "you" when it comes to clothing and acceptance. There might be a few of us who are more vocal about this so called reverse discrimination, but I believe they do not speak for the majority of the community. Personally, I could not care less what a person wears. Any person. I've said it many times, to each, his/her own. I'm thrilled that woman got "liberated" in the way they can dress. Jealous that I can't have the same freedom? You better believe it! Am I upset about the disparity? Yeah! Do I hold it against all the GGs that they can dress however they like? NO! I'm thrilled that you have the freedom like that. Maybe "us" will have that same privilege, but until then, "you" enjoy yourselves. We'll catch up eventually. Love and xxxx, Lily

[tekla west]

The way I read that post (and re-read it) was that it was all about how small towns are not exactly fashion centers. What makes it hard to CD in small towns is not the lack of fashion but that everyone knows everybodies elses business, & secrets are hard to keep.

I'm all for anyone wearing whatever they want. Love thick black tribal tattoos swirling about your upper arms or shoulders while wearing a 50's prom dress with Doc Martin boots??? Go for it. Little girls in belly shirts showing off thier pieced navel while wearing pants so low you got plumbers crack and showing off that tramp-stamp on your back? Sure. Love body modification? Great! Hey, come on over in fact, I have a top-of-the-line Makita 18V LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless 1/2" Driver Drill that you can use on your face to your heart's content. KlubKids rock, boys in prom dresses are dreamy, girls looking like boys are way cool. What ever floats your boat.

[bgirl]

The way I read that post (and re-read it) was that it was all about how small towns are not exactly fashion centers. What makes it hard to CD in small towns is not the lack of fashion but that everyone knows everybodies elses business, & secrets are hard to keep.

I'm all for anyone wearing whatever they want. Love thick black tribal tattoos swirling about your upper arms or shoulders while wearing a 50's prom dress with Doc Martin boots??? Go for it. Little girls in belly shirts showing off thier pieced navel while wearing pants so low you got plumbers crack and showing off that tramp-stamp on your back? Sure. Love body modification? Great! Hey, come on over in fact, I have a top-of-the-line Makita 18V LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless 1/2" Driver Drill that you can use on your face to your heart's content. KlubKids rock, boys in prom dresses are dreamy, girls looking like boys are way cool. What ever floats your boat.

I was thinking maybe a little tounge in cheek, but then considering your 18 volt Mosquito 1/2 inch cordless drill, even that was a possibility.

[tekla west]

Professional craftpersons use professional grade tools - they are REQUIRED to. It funny, on a union call we have 7 dress codes, the same for boys and girls. Given that its rock and roll, we have as many guys with real long hair as we have girls with super short hair, from the back you can't tell us apart, all slinging those drivers down on our thigh like Western gunfighters and thier Colts.

[QZ2]

Dear Vanya,

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

A woman can wear whatever she wants, almost, and never loose her femininity. Some of us can put on all the makeup and heels we want and never hide our masculinity. My wife wears pants and shorts most of the time and sometimes looks so lusciously feminine that I want to melt.

But your being upset with the comment is valid when the remark is said with ignorance or jealousy. But really, I believe that we CDrs are a bit envious at times that we can't go out in a skirt and I also believe that most of us would never want to do it if we weren’t trying to emulate the female image. We are M2F, not M2M in a skirt and we should remember that the next time we say a similar remark.

By the way, I can be jealous of Trudi's wonderfully understanding wife.

Hugs, Susie

[HaleyPink2000]

OK, Vanya!

I hate to say this Big Time! You don't know how much I hate to say this.
But, your correct that this would be wrong for a CD to ask their wife or GF or whatever to wear only dresses and then they be able to go out and wear a dress themselves. Gawd, your right, I hate to admit it.:heehee:

That said! If a CD was wanting the world to let them dress as they wish. In a dress or bra, whatever. Then they can't turn around and expect the world to conform to their standards either. They would have to allow people to wear what they will. Except in Business settings. Then it's up to the person giving you a pay check...I'd agree.:D

[GG Vanya]

Dear Vanya,

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

A woman can wear whatever she wants, almost, and never loose her femininity. Some of us can put on all the makeup and heels we want and never hide our masculinity. My wife wears pants and shorts most of the time and sometimes looks so lusciously feminine that I want to melt.

But your being upset with the comment is valid when the remark is said with ignorance or jealousy. But really, I believe that we CDrs are a bit envious at times that we can't go out in a skirt and I also believe that most of us would never want to do it if we weren’t trying to emulate the female image. We are M2F, not M2M in a skirt and we should remember that the next time we say a similar remark.

By the way, I can be jealous of Trudi's wonderfully understanding wife.Hugs, Susie

1. Agreed. Even if she is wearing pants tailored for men, unless she binds her breasts, achieves a 5 O'clock shadow via makeup, to me, she isn't crossdressing. Others most probably think differently.

1. Certainly you can. :happy: I have absolutely no aversion to that jealousy. However, I can't take all the credit. Vanya also has a wonderfully understanding, sensitive, caring and intuitive "wife". :D

[MarinaTwelve200]

The REAL Problem is very simple We ALL are culturally conditioned to see a man wearing a dress as looking FOOLISH ===It evokes laughter just as much as a clown's costume designed for the purpose.

Even some of us less "sensitive" CDs have laughed at the sight---of course many of us remember Milton Byrle. Its for THIS reason, if a guy IS gonna CD in public he had better well look "real" when doing it.

Those who do not PASS pay the price---but for many, the ridicule may be worth the price of admission, so to speak. to others it is not. Its no use griping about an aspect of society we cant change. We KNOW what people laugh at and should expect it if we insist on public Cding, Just as the clown expects to be laughed in his costume---it would make little sense for the clown to complain about being laughed at in public when wearing his funny clothes and makeup.

My point is we cant change society, the culture is what it is. A CD in public knows the risk. Its how the CD handles the situation that counts. Its a voluntary act, that must be worth the risk to the CDer to do it.

[Kimberly]

:notworthy:

Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you!

It needed to be said. xx

[GG Vanya]

Addressing the "is a woman wearing pants crossdressed" thought, I'd like to give an example:

I am an avid sportswoman. I deer, squirrel and duck hunt. I've done this for many years. Until recently no one made camo specifically for women. Nor did they offer insulated underwear for women. For this reason, I wore camo, hunting boots, and insulated underwear made for men. I "adapted" the underwear by sewing up the fly because I felt awkward wearing it (and to keep my sons from snitching it!)

Not once did I feel I was crossdressed, even though I was attired head to toe in clothes tailored for males. This was a simple case of necessity.

Time certainly changes things. Now Cabela's (world's foremost outfitter) even has a catalog for women only! (and women can now purchase thermal underwear in pink, or with flowers on them!)

Who knows, in another 20 years it's entirely possible you'll see J C Penny's catalogs catered to the M2F crossdresser. I hope so.

[Sophia Rearen]

I am an avid sportswoman. I deer, squirrel and duck hunt. I've done this for many years. Until recently no one made camo specifically for women. Nor did they offer insulated underwear for women. For this reason, I wore camo, hunting boots, and insulated underwear made for men. I "adapted" the underwear by sewing up the fly because I felt awkward wearing it (and to keep my sons from snitching it!)



Now you see, here is a difference. I think that what you're wearing is sexy. Women in mens camo gear, that's hot. Most men would find it so. Conversely, put a man in hot cami gear and you'll find very few women who'll think it's sexy.

[Kate Simmons]

As far as I'm concerned there is no problem here among us anyway. I'm assuming that by being members of the Forum, we accept each other for who we are and how we want to express ourselves. Am I wrong? Ericka

[noname]

Dear Vanya,

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.



Would you say a guy in a skirt not trying to M2F is crossdressing?


1. Agreed. Even if she is wearing pants tailored for men

This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Because somehow you believe it IS different when you do it.

[GG Vanya]

Would you say a guy in a skirt not trying to M2F is crossdressing?



This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Because somehow you believe it IS different when you do it.


I believe it is different because of what "I" feel inside when I wear apparel made for men. I am not attempting to feel or express masculinity. To me, it really *is* more than just the clothes when it comes to crossdressing. I've always felt that "passing" isn't the root issue for a CD, it's about expressing what he OR she feels inside.

Ericka, I certainly would hope that we all here are accepting of others, but I keep seeing comments, (I gave one example already, and I'll give another below) that seem very derogatory regarding SO's or other GG's who do not dress to the CD's specific standards or wishes.

I even know a CD (not on this forum) who is *divorcing* his wife because she refuses to dress more feminine 'for him'. I'd love to see the look on the judge's face when the CD gives *this* reason for divorce. And I told him so. For the record, the wife knows he CD's, but does not wish to participate or be included.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36933

[Maria D]

What bothers me, as I said above, is the negativity implied when CD's criticize us for not wearing skirts and dresses.

I think that translates as 'They aren't wearing what I want them to wear, for me to look at'.
Well, ok, fine, lets get all the GGs to wear what you want them to. This will usually involve skirts and dresses. In return, men can wear what women want them to wear. This will probably not involve crossdressing. Is this an acceptable agreement, or would it perhaps be better for everyone to wear what they want?

In terms of crossdressing, I think women being able to wear trousers would have make it harder for FTM CDs, since trousers have ceased to be a visible sign of masculinity. If men were able to wear skirts and dresses, or further, if clothes ceased to have gender, it'd make it harder for all CDs by removing a useful visual CDing aid. That's my feeling of what equal clothing rights would do, rather than what's actually desired, which is 'being able to crossdress without any problem' which is a different thing. I don't deny anyone any rights, but I think that's what'd happen.

Just my tuppence 'apenny. :)

[Sophia Rearen]

Women should be able to wear whatever they want. Men should be able to wear whatever they want.
Wouldn't a dress/skirt without hose be cooler than a skort?
I love those sleeveless blouses/tops, whatever you call them. I just told my wife a week ago, men should be able to wear those. The appear cool in temperature.
I, for one, have my own reasoning for wanting women to wear dresses and it's not stepping on anyones neck. I appreciate women in dresses and skirts. Very simple. It makes them more feminine. It appeals to me. It's attractive. It's ...
So, I'd like to see more of them, yes. Doesn't mean you can't wear anything else. I also, have another selfish reason for wanting more women to wear more skirts and dresses. As a CDer, I like to go out. I like to blend in as best as I can as a regular woman. I, typically, like to wear a dress or a skirt when I do so. As a genetic man, why would I want to wear pants while going the rest of the distance? But, I digress. If I go out in a dress or skirt, chances are I will look and feel more feminine, that's good. However, wearing a dress or a skirt, since rarely worn by others, now has become similar to spotting an endangered species. So, the attraction is placed on me, when all I want to do is feel and be feminine without causing a scene. Ironically, we are an endangered species. We are out there, no one really knows how many of us there are, yet we certainly are in danger from the common man.

[GG Vanya]

I agree totally with every word you said Maria.

I've often pondered what would happen if the headlines in the morning read:

OK FOR MALES TO WEAR FEMALE ATTIRE

Would the loss of the "taboo" element take all the fun out of it for some?

And your remark about F2M's is spot on! That's exactly why I think the path they walk is more difficult.

[HaleyPink2000]

It is diffrent for Women GGs! They are allowed to, by our culture, to wear what ever the heck they want... We " CDs" for the most part, are not. Thats changing slowly. I'm pretty sure over time it will completely change for males. Just not tomorrow! LOL:heehee:

[jamie_44]

Clothing does not make the person, I think you should be free to wear whatever is comfortable for you. Society judges too much on appearance. There are truly more important matters to worry about.

[GG Vanya]

Women should be able to wear whatever they want. Men should be able to wear whatever they want.
Wouldn't a dress/skirt without hose be cooler than a skort?
I love those sleeveless blouses/tops, whatever you call them. I just told my wife a week ago, men should be able to wear those. The appear cool in temperature.
I, for one, have my own reasoning for wanting women to wear dresses and it's not stepping on anyones neck. I appreciate women in dresses and skirts. Very simple. It makes them more feminine. It appeals to me. It's attractive. It's ...
So, I'd like to see more of them, yes. Doesn't mean you can't wear anything else. I also, have another selfish reason for wanting more women to wear more skirts and dresses. As a CDer, I like to go out. I like to blend in as best as I can as a regular woman. I, typically, like to wear a dress or a skirt when I do so. As a genetic man, why would I want to wear pants while going the rest of the distance? But, I digress. If I go out in a dress or skirt, chances are I will look and feel more feminine, that's good. However, wearing a dress or a skirt, since rarely worn by others, now has become similar to spotting an endangered species. So, the attraction is placed on me, when all I want to do is feel and be feminine without causing a scene. Ironically, we are an endangered species. We are out there, no one really knows how many of us there are, yet we certainly are in danger from the common man.


Sophia,

I well understand the desire for more women to wear dresses to enable you to "blend in". But is it fair to pressure the GG's (whether it's your wife or GG Public) to comform to your desires or wishes in order to achieve this for you?

This is what I meant by "stepping on necks".

I have a very specific reason for disliking dresses and skirts worn frequently. As a Pentecostal minister's daughter, I was forbidden to wear ANYthing remotely resembling male clothing until I married and left home. I was ridiculed and outcast by many in school because I couldn't wear shorts in P.E., and miniskirts were all the rage back then. I couldn't do that either, but I did find a way to blend in more. I made all my clothes back then, and I started wearing a lot of skirts, and would roll them up at the waistband as soon as I got on the school bus. You see, I *do* understand the desire to blend in. But never did I feel everyone else should abstain from wearing mini skirts and pants so "I" wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb.

I now wear dresses when I want to dress up, not because someone else thinks I should.

And no, a dress sans the hose is not cooler than a skort. Add to that the fact that my job requires that some days I am in and out of a vehicle all day~not very graceful in a dress.

P.S. The sleeveless blouse is called a "shell".

[bredalee25]

When I say a woman can wear anything and not be looked at twice. It's not me saying it's wrong or trying to stop GG's from wearing what they want to. It's the fact that GG's can wear whatever they wish to but a CD can't.
Look at it like this you can go to the mens wear dept at any store buy something and go home put it on and go about your buisiness. I on the other hand can't go to the womans dept and purchase an item and go home and put it on and go about my buisiness without being seen as a freak or weird for doing so.
So I in no way am trying to stop you or any other GG from wearing what you wish. I just want the same treatment and freedom to wear what i wish no matter what it is.

ttfn

[GG Vanya]

It is diffrent for Women GGs! They are allowed to, by our culture, to wear what ever the heck they want... We " CDs" for the most part, are not. Thats changing slowly. I'm pretty sure over time it will completely change for males. Just not tomorrow! LOL:heehee:


Correct, but this has not always been so.

But on the other hand, men have always had the right to vote.

Females' freedom to wear what we choose didn't happen over night, and my "ForeMothers" were in the trenches fighting for the rights I now have.

I think MEN should also be allowed to "wear whatever the heck they want". I sincerely hope it happens sooner rather than later.

[Tamara Croft]

Would you say a guy in a skirt not trying to M2F is crossdressing?

This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Because somehow you believe it IS different when you do it.Whinging..... moaning...... blah blah blah..... posts like this piss me off because people like you DON'T GET IT!!!!! Most GG's that wear male clothing AREN'T TRYING TO BE MALE.... do you GET THAT??? or is it really bloody rocket science???

Sheesh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Jenna1561]

Well, another Hot topic here.

There are times when enfemme in my small town that I wish more women wore dresses so that I wouldn't stand out so much.

There are times when in drab in my small town that I wish more men were overweight and wearing shorts so that I wouldn't stand out so much.

But I understand and affirm each individual's right to dress as they desire. My wife's and my fashion sense are very different. I do not attempt to force my fashions on her. She wears skirts occassionally and dresses rarely.

I like wearing a skirt, but many times wear shorts and jeans to blend in and because at times they are more utilitarian. I still very much feel like a woman. The skirts and dresses are nice and feminine, but it's what's inside that makes me feel like a woman.

If I decide to wear a gypsy skirt and tunic top to run errands around town, but most women are wearing shorts or capris, then I do. If I want to throw on a pair of jeans and a shell then that's what I wear.

So wear what you want, and I'll wear what I want.

Love,


Jenna

[Sophia Rearen]

Sophia,

I well understand the desire for more women to wear dresses to enable you to "blend in". But is it fair to pressure the GG's (whether it's your wife or GG Public) to comform to your desires or wishes in order to achieve this for you?

This is what I meant by "stepping on necks".

I have a very specific reason for disliking dresses and skirts worn frequently. As a Pentecostal minister's daughter, I was forbidden to wear ANYthing remotely resembling male clothing until I married and left home. I was ridiculed and outcast by many in school because I couldn't wear shorts in P.E., and miniskirts were all the rage back then. I couldn't do that either, but I did find a way to blend in more. I made all my clothes back then, and I started wearing a lot of skirts, and would roll them up at the waistband as soon as I got on the school bus. You see, I *do* understand the desire to blend in. But never did I feel everyone else should abstain from wearing mini skirts and pants so "I" wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb.

I now wear dresses when I want to dress up, not because someone else thinks I should.

And no, a dress sans the hose is not cooler than a skort. Add to that the fact that my job requires that some days I am in and out of a vehicle all day~not very graceful in a dress.

P.S. The sleeveless blouse is called a "shell".

No, absolutely not fair. I would not do such a thing. My wife hates wearing dresses. I understand your excuse. Can't figure hers.

Wow, learning all the time. A skort is cooler. I get the car thing, makes sense. Function over fashion. And it's called a shell. So many terms/names! Maybe I'll go back to trying to be just a guy. Shirt and pants, done.

[Kate Simmons]

Vanya, I can see your point. As far as I'm concerned there are no "standards". Anyone who tries to make them is no better than the "world" who does not accept them for who they wish to be. If you set CD or any other kind of "standards" you are no better than the people you are fighting against. I love everyone on this Forum. Diversity is what makes the world go around, otherwise we would all be clones of some sort. I celebrate everyone's individuality, it's time everyone else did also. The person you are inside is the one that counts, regardless of what you choose to look like. Can I explain it any simpler? Love,:love: Ericka

[noname]

Whinging..... moaning...... blah blah blah..... posts like this piss me off because people like you DON'T GET IT!!!!! Most GG's that wear male clothing AREN'T TRYING TO BE MALE.... do you GET THAT??? or is it really bloody rocket science???

Sheesh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'M NOT TRYING TO BE FEMALE... don't you get it? It's not rocket science.

I don't wear a wig.
I don't wear makeup.
I don't wear bras.

Though I don't try to pass, ( I could with ease ) maybe I don't belong here? But I will say I still get stares and looks. But I guess you wouldn't understand because you don't get those types of looks and stares.

[CaptLex]

But I will say I still get stares and looks. But I guess you wouldn't understand because you don't get those types of looks and stares.
Well, I get the "is that a boy or a girl?" look every day - but then, I am trying to pass. Does it bother me? Depends on my mood. Some days I wish people weren't questioning me with their eyes, but some days I think I must be doing something right if it keeps them wondering. :p

[GG Vanya]

To gently guide us back on topic, allow me to explain it this way:

I have a friend who is a substitute school teacher. (union job)

Substitutes have few to none when it comes to benefits.

Every year, when it comes time to negotiate the contract, the topic arises regarding benefits for the subs. Every year it becomes a battle. The full time teachers' positions are:

"Sure, we all want the subs to have more, but NOT if it means we have to give up any of OUR benefits as negotiating tools. We fought TOO hard and TOO long for our rights. We paid our dues, we were subs once too."

Putting it in that context, hopefully the CD's (read substitutes) can understand my feelings as a GG (read full time teacher).

[Dee 1062]

dress as you like...who cares...not me saids Dee.:)

[Jodie_Lynn]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37046

This thread in the lounge is an example of what I'm trying to point out. It seems to be a "lament" if you will, that women don't wear dresses/skirts, and the fact that it makes it more difficult for CD's to go out without being read.

And no, I absolutely do not think F2M's have it easier. I think they have it much tougher than M2F's.

Let me try to word it this way:

It seems that, with few exceptions, every time the "women don't dress feminine anymore" topic surfaces, it has a negative/critical slant to it. Please don't criticize us for doing exactly what you wish to do: Dress as you choose!
I think you may be misinterpreting the "lament".

It is not said in a way that would deny women the right to dress as they choose, not to 'force' you back into girdles, bustles and June Cleaver dresses.

It is more a question of equality for CD-ers: A woman can choose to wear a skirt, dress, slacks, jeans, skort, etc and no one bats an eye. But, on a 105 degree day, how many heads would turn, and tongues start to wag if the male CEO of your company showed up in a pair of shorts and a polo shirt (the kind men wear on a golf course....), or worse, A sleeveless blouse and mid length skirt with sandals?

Case in point: Up to January of this year, I worked for an electrical contractor in NYC. Big strong union guys.
One electrician showed up last August wearing Khaki knee length shorts, and a salmon polo shirt, mens wear. The General foreman freaked out and told him he'd have to go buy a pair of pants or be sent home. The electrician replied "But I have the legs for it" which sent the rest of us in howls of laughter. It seems that his pants had "zip-off" legs and could be worn as slacks or shorts he re-attached the legs, and everyone was happy.

But the point was that if you don't dress as "expected" for a male, then you are open to gossip, innuendo, and all that other tripe.

I think, to boil it down, is that the "lament" is just a CD-ers way of asking for equal opportunity to dress as one pleases, without fear of ridicule.

[tekla west]

My union rules state "shorts are NEVER acceptable work wear." I'm sure it had more to do with that, with shorts not being safe to work in, then in anything else. After all, they didn't say anything about the color of the shirt.

Rules for work are different. When I taught college I wore a suit, when I work on a stage I wear black, when I work the street I wear a mini and fishnets (not really).

[GG Vanya]

There could be various reasons why the union electrician wasn't allowed to wear shorts on the job. It "could" be OSHA regulations concerns, or simply that it was a violation of company dress codes.

I disagree that I misinterpreted the "lament". I've seen some CDs here ridicule their wives to no end because they (the wife) do not meet their standards of female apparel.

I also previously referred to those who would prefer that more females dress in skirts and dresses, to facilitate their (CDs) "blending in" more when out en femme. My position would be that instead of asking the GG's to dress in anything other than their personal choice, the CDs could perhaps dress more like the general GG population. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I saw a closing statement in someone's (a CD)post the other day which I can *not* seem to find now which said, in essence:

As crossdressers, we supposedly admire females to the point of emulating them, so why do we so often insult them?

[Jodie_Lynn]

perhaps, unconsciously, those that insult GG's do so because deep in their mind, they KNOW that they can never be 'truly' female. Sometimes, we turn on our idols simply because we have placed them on too high of a pedestal.

Not to be argumentative, but I have also seen insults, either knowingly, or not, fly from the fingers of women here as well.

A GG on this thread made a remark to the effect of "I've paid my dues...." and bringing up the point that "men have always had the right to vote". These statements could be looked at as hostility to any male presuming to intrude on the 'space' alloted to women. I'm not saying they were, but a person could choose to view them as such. It could also be looked at as making those males present pay for the misdeeds of their forefathers.

It has been my experience in life that if we CHOOSE to look for the slur, or the insult, or the degrading comment, then we WILL find it. Even if it is our own perceptions that color it so.

[GG Vanya]

perhaps, unconsciously, those that insult GG's do so because deep in their mind, they KNOW that they can never be 'truly' female. Sometimes, we turn on our idols simply because we have placed them on too high of a pedestal.

Not to be argumentative, but I have also seen insults, either knowingly, or not, fly from the fingers of women here as well.

A GG on this thread made a remark to the effect of "I've paid my dues...." and bringing up the point that "men have always had the right to vote". These statements could be looked at as hostility to any male presuming to intrude on the 'space' alloted to women. I'm not saying they were, but a person could choose to view them as such. It could also be looked at as making those males present pay for the misdeeds of their forefathers.

It has been my experience in life that if we CHOOSE to look for the slur, or the insult, or the degrading comment, then we WILL find it. Even if it is our own perceptions that color it so.

Jodie,

Yes, *I* made both those comments, but you're taking them out of context. The remark about voting was in an example of how GG's haven't always had the rights we enjoy now. The dues paying comment was in reference to an example I gave of how GG's should not have to give up our right to dress as we choose in order to make it easier for CDs to be accepted. And for the record *I* didn't make the dues paying comment. I was relaying something someone else said in a totally different situation simply for the sake of comparison. In neither instance was I attempting to insult or offend anyone, nor was there any hostility intended.

I don't see crossdressers as intruding on GGs' space. Perhaps you're not aware that I am married to a CD. I made an informed choice to marry him. I not only accept this, I participate in, encourage, and facilitate Trudi's femininity. I absolutely adore sharing my allotted space with her! :happy:

It's difficult to perceive a comment that one's wife dresses like Fred Flintstone as anything other than being a slur/insult/degrading. Surely you and I can agree on this point at least?

[Jodie_Lynn]

See? I wasn't implying that you WERE being insulting, only that some could perceive it that way.
:D

And I'm passing familiar with your relationship with your hubby. I've been around here for a bit :)

I didn't see the "fred Flintstone" comment you are referring to Vanya. But you're right, that IS insulting.

My point was that sometimes, an insult is only an insult because we make it so. For instance, my wife and sister. One can tell the other "good morning" and that one will come running to me asking "what did she mean by that?" Ya see, they don't get along so well, and are always assuming the the other is making a dig at them. But it only because they are CHOOSING to be antagonistic towards one another.

As to the poster who made that comment (about you V? ) they should be horsewhipped. with a real horse.

[Billijo49504]

Instead of agueing about who can wear what, Can't we all live as a great big family?The world needs more peace...BJ

[noname]

It is more a question of equality for CD-ers: A woman can choose to wear a skirt, dress, slacks, jeans, skort, etc and no one bats an eye. But, on a 105 degree day, how many heads would turn, and tongues start to wag if the male CEO of your company showed up in a pair of shorts and a polo shirt (the kind men wear on a golf course....), or worse, A sleeveless blouse and mid length skirt with sandals?

** Portion of post removed **

I think, to boil it down, is that the "lament" is just a CD-ers way of asking for equal opportunity to dress as one pleases, without fear of ridicule.

Thanks Lynn, well said, espeically your point about equal opportunity.

[tekla west]

Maybe she does dress like Fred Flintstone. As the remark was tied to her working in the high tech field, and high tech is nothing if not low fashion. They call them geeks for a reason 'ya know. Moreover a lot of women tone it way down at work so they can a) avoid being hit on, b) to blend in and 'be one of the guys,' which in high tech means white sox with sandals, high-water pants, old faded mediocre rock band shirt, glasses fixed with tape and a Ferrari in the parking lot. (I kid, but you get the idea) I know women who don't have a single skirt or dress. Matter of fact, skirts/dresses are forbidden in my work dress code as they are "not practical."

As for voting, anyone from the land of 'graceful plantations' should well know that the right to vote was not open to all men, not even all white men.

[ReginaK]

Who knows, in another 20 years it's entirely possible you'll see J C Penny's catalogs catered to the M2F crossdresser. I hope so.

That's a bit optimistic. Recognition starts at home. Before corporate America starts recognizing us, we need our wives, girlfriends, mothers, etc to recognize us and not be ashamed of us.


I also previously referred to those who would prefer that more females dress in skirts and dresses, to facilitate their (CDs) "blending in" more when out en femme. My position would be that instead of asking the GG's to dress in anything other than their personal choice, the CDs could perhaps dress more like the general GG population. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

But what would be the fun in that? If we dressed to blend in, it would be a waste to call it crossdressing.

[rosiegurl]

I think it all comes down to the fact the M2F's are a bit jealous of the clothing freedom women have in regards to men, and sometimes it just comes out wrong.

I know I personally wish guys had as much freedom to wear what they like as women do, but we don't, so can only look on and wish *grins* while those of us brave enough push the frontier forward, and those like me, cower behind closed doors *grins*

[Nike]

As I read this thread and the discussion of the freedom of women to wear whatever they want I am very aware that many of us here are old enough to remember well the challenges they faced to get to this point. I'm in my 40's and this widely accepted freedom woman have came during my lifetime. Women were not GIVEN their freedom, they CLAIMED it. The news during the 60's covered bra burning events as fervently as they covered draft card burning events.

Now, I don't see any "boxer burnings" in the news anytime soon. :eek:

The point clearly is that society didn't just one day say, "hey, women, you can wear whatever you want and we were wrong to require you to wear only dresses and skirts for all this time". I admire the women who challenged the stereotype. I admire that the generations that followed took up the issue and continued to define who they chose to be, rather than being forced back to Victorian thinking.

Ladies of both sexes, wear what you choose. As in all things in life, be aware that there is a certain level of appropriate to anything we choose to bring into the public realm. Some will ignore, some will accept and some will object passionately to virtually everything. Who we are as people is not defined by others, but by the strength of our own convictions.

[ReginaK]

As I read this thread and the discussion of the freedom of women to wear whatever they want I am very aware that many of us here are old enough to remember well the challenges they faced to get to this point. I'm in my 40's and this widely accepted freedom woman have came during my lifetime. Women were not GIVEN their freedom, they CLAIMED it. The news during the 60's covered bra burning events as fervently as they covered draft card burning events.

Now, I don't see any "boxer burnings" in the news anytime soon. :eek:

The point clearly is that society didn't just one day say, "hey, women, you can wear whatever you want and we were wrong to require you to wear only dresses and skirts for all this time". I admire the women who challenged the stereotype. I admire that the generations that followed took up the issue and continued to define who they chose to be, rather than being forced back to Victorian thinking.

You'll probably never see a boxer burning either, because so many men are afraid of looking like they are gay. Even though it wasn't intentional, feminism inadvertently amplified the problem it was supposed to solve. In an effort to gain the same rights as men, they essentially made femininity seem inferior for both men and women. So now, even more than ever before, if someone expresses femininity, it's seen as climbing down the ladder.

[CaptLex]

So now, even more than ever before, if someone expresses femininity, it's seen as climbing down the ladder.
I think one has to have the guts to stand up and say, "Yeah, I'm feminine . . . so what? You got a problem with that?" Don't really see that happening on a worldwide basis because there's too much homophobia.

[HaleyPink2000]

Correct, but this has not always been so.

But on the other hand, men have always had the right to vote.

Females' freedom to wear what we choose didn't happen over night, and my "ForeMothers" were in the trenches fighting for the rights I now have.

I think MEN should also be allowed to "wear whatever the heck they want". I sincerely hope it happens sooner rather than later.


Your also correct!
My Father's Father's fought in the wars before women were able to. But that has nothing to do with clothing either like "voting rights"! It's like you said exactly, your Mother's Mother's fought for the rights to do certain things. One of those was to wear pants! LOL:):heehee:

[HaleyPink2000]

That's a bit optimistic. Recognition starts at home. Before corporate America starts recognizing us, we need our wives, girlfriends, mothers, etc to recognize us and not be ashamed of us.



But what would be the fun in that? If we dressed to blend in, it would be a waste to call it crossdressing.


Reginak your correct in so many ways!
The not be ashamed of being seen with us, or having others know we are CD, is a big thing needed worked on in my house! My own Wife said she'd say she knew nothing about my dressing, if anyone found out.

On the blending in thing! I dress to look the part of a female. I dress to be as female as I can be. I don't dress part way most of the time. It's all or nothjing for me mostly, or it's not fun. I love being invisible when at the mall, blending in does that for me. :D I don't want to stand out in the croud with a full beard and wear a dress. Thats way not me. Maybe it's what others like, but not me. Nothing wrong with it, if thats their thing. It's just not mine.

But as for your statement, your probably correct for many. I most likely would get along better with my wife if when I dressed, I did not try so hard, and look so female. She was totaly amazed the first time she did see me dressed. At how much I look like a GG. She could not get over it.:heehee: It actually did piss her off, I know. I live with her, and I'll tell ya, She was pisst.:Angry3: Oh, and that was for a Halloween party.:rolleyes:

You have a great weekend ReginaK.:hugs:

BTW Thanks for this thred.:thumbsup:

[Snookums]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

I would never deny anyone GG or other person the right to wear what they choose,but when men wear dresses,skirts flats or heels,we are declared sick.

[Julogden]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!
Hi Vanya,

I feel that you're right on the money.

But let me play the devil's advocate here. These are NOT my opinions, just things that have occurred to me, and I'd like to hear other's opinions.

Might there be a double standard in the cases where a wife is non-accepting of her CD husband and gives him an ultimatum concerning what he can or can't wear? Think about it, how would a husband who tries to totally control how his wife looks be viewed?

Now I know what some might say: "I married a man and now he's decided to be a woman, and I don't find him attractive that way".

How about when a woman was a girly-girl before marriage and then decides to not wear makeup, cuts her hair short, starts wearing what are basically men's clothes and avoids skirts and dresses?

How about when a wife gains a huge amount of weight, or loses a lot of weight in cases where she was heavy before marriage and her husband likes her heavy?

In these cases, she has changed in ways that may easily affect her husband's attraction to her.

Do we fall in love with the person or with their image, an image that we may have constructed in our mind and may have nothing to do with the other person's reality?

Just some food for thought.

Carol, donning flack jacket and helmet
:hugs:

[noname]

So many of you GG talk about women fighting for your rights. Interesting, you fought for the right to serve in the armed forces but didn't fight to be included for drafting. I shouldn't be surprised with all your double standards.

// is moody today.

[Jennaie]

Huh?

[ashlee chiffon]

i just like to see an attractive woman dressup in skirts and dresses and makeup once in awhile, so i can appreciate all that is about...it's not criticism and it's fine if women don't want to do it...i can always to to the mall other shopping area to get the visual fix i enjoy...lots of dressed up gals there! Of course, women are also attractive in pants *back zip are sooo hot!*, denin, camo, sweats, etc...
I think it's only the cd's with ...other issues... that actually criticize women for what they wear or don't wear...and that is their opinion, but it is not the opinion of the majority of cd's i've known. We like women and their clothes and their whole essence too much to be so critical...
please... judge not the many by the words of a few....Luv!

[Angie G]

My wife some times wears my shirts and has put on some pounds in the last few years and I love her more every day and thank God she loves my even with my derssing when shes not in makeup & a dress or skirt maybe in sweats
she is still beautiful to me.
And with whatthe womam as put up with for fare to long now have the right to wear what they want
To all GG's I say you go girl
Angie G.

[CaptLex]

So many of you GG talk about women fighting for your rights. Interesting, you fought for the right to serve in the armed forces but didn't fight to be included for drafting. I shouldn't be surprised with all your double standards.

// is moody today.

"Moody today"? How is today any different from any other day? You've got real issues with women, huh?

[noname]

"Moody today"? How is today any different from any other day? You've got real issues with women, huh?

I don't have issues with women, I have issues with women with double standards which about 99.99% of them.

[CaptLex]

I don't have issues with women, I have issues with women with double standards which about 99.99% of them.
"You say tomato . . . I say tomahto". It just seems to me that a lot of your posts have the same "mommy, she's picking on me" theme to them. So you know 99.99% of women? :eek: I'm impressed.

[Annaliese]

I keep reading, over and over, remarks by the CDs regarding "women can wear male attire and nothing is thought of it."

I asked this in the lounge on another thread, but I'd like to know:

Would you (CD's) deny GG's the right to wear whatever they choose, and do you not consider this reverse discrimination, given the fact that this is exactly the right you wish to obtain?

I thought about this today. The heat index here is 109 F, and as I was working it occurred to me that IF I was wearing a dress and hose, I most likely would have either ripped them off by 10 AM or suffered heat stroke!

Fortunately, the dress code for my job is lax, so I wore a "dressy" skort with a short sleeved blouse~much like what you see women wearing on the golf course.

Can any of you see my point? It has been a very long journey from the Ms. Cleaver shirtwaist dress and apron, to working outside the home, in jobs previously thought to be for "men only". Certainly with those changes, the dress codes and trends for women changed also~sometimes out of necessity, but also out of choice.

What I'm trying to say, without sounding offensive is: It seems there is a mindset for some who, in attempting to climb that ladder of acceptance, would just as soon step on the necks of those who have already fought this battle in order to get there.

I'd venture to say that 99.9% of the GG's here support your (CD's) right to dress as you choose. Please don't put us down for having already fought the battle you now fight. We're on *your* side!

Yes when CD'er wine that GG can wear what they want, you called it like it is discrimination

[tekla west]

99.99% of all women don't think in any given way, that I'm pretty much sure about. And what is the base sample here? I know a lot of women and unless you are working on being intimate with them, they just don't care at all. Seems like a constant hostility here, which is odd, considering who we are.

[janedoe311]

When a GG wears pants is she crossdressing? No. Unless what she is doing is trying to accomplish F2M.

**********************************************

When my wife wears my shirt or pants is that crossdressing?
When a man wears a skirt on a hot day or to be confortable at home, is that crossdressing?

Most would say No to the first and Yes to the second.

But neither is trying to pass or bring out the “other side”.

So either wearing the clothes of the opposite sex is crossdressing or it is not. It should not make a difference the internal reason for it.

She wears my shirts because they are comfortable and he wears the skirt because it is comfortable.

But they are ALL crossdressing. When someone wears the clothes of the opposite sex they are crossdressing.

It is that the society sees it OK and not crossdressing if a woman does it.

[KateLongman27]

The REAL Problem is very simple We ALL are culturally conditioned to see a man wearing a dress as looking FOOLISH ===It evokes laughter just as much as a clown's costume designed for the purpose.


What about Eddie Izzard? He cross dresses doesn't pass but is accepted maybe becuase he has gotten respect, mainly from his comedy routines etc but isn't the main point is being able to wear what you like without being demeanoured or falling foul of abuse etc. to wear what you like? It's only because society and people within this society that encourages the ideas of men wearing dresses etc. is wrong and should be disavowed/outcast



Even some of us less "sensitive" CDs have laughed at the sight---of course many of us remember Milton Byrle. Its for THIS reason, if a guy IS gonna CD in public he had better well look "real" when doing it.

So what you're saying is that if I want to wear a dress, no makeup etc. then I shouldn't bother? Because to me this is the whole point in the twenties if a women was seen to be wearing men's clothing then she would be classed as a lesbian and be laughed and ridiculed. Yet they still did it and today what do you know women are wearing men's clothing without batting an eye lid! So why should "a guy gonna CD in public he had better well look "real" when doing it"? Isn't our society meant to be based on uniqueness and freedom of expression within the "given criminal laws"?



Those who do not PASS pay the price---but for many, the ridicule may be worth the price of admission, so to speak. to others it is not. Its no use griping about an aspect of society we cant change. We KNOW what people laugh at and should expect it if we insist on public Cding, Just as the clown expects to be laughed in his costume---it would make little sense for the clown to complain about being laughed at in public when wearing his funny clothes and makeup.

"It's no use griping about an aspect of scoiety we can't change" - This is absolutely ********, we do have a right, we vote, we can write to MPs, Members of Congress, Senators etc. to encourage laws to support CDers in work etc. Yes we know what people laugh at but again it boils down to the viewpoint of society that it is unacceptable for men to wear dresses, I for one when I have kids will encourage free thought and hence will ensure that they have a belief of its right for a man to wear a dress etc. When the viewpoint of: it is unacceptable for a man to wear makeup and a dress etc. dies the laughing will die. Its certain people with an attitude of "Oh, look there's a man in a dress" well in 50 yrs time probably no one will bat an eyelid because down the line somewhere there will be an activist who changes societies view and ensures that a man wearing a dress, makeup etc is accepted and treated equally



My point is we cant change society, the culture is what it is. A CD in public knows the risk. Its how the CD handles the situation that counts. Its a voluntary act, that must be worth the risk to the CDer to do it.

That is a defeatist attitude society can change! It may take a while but it eventually will change, look at gay marriages, look at women's voting rights, look at slavery, look at gay rights c.f. 50 - 100 years ago, over that period soceity has changed because people stood up and changed society.

Next thing we'll know about is the government (like the KGB in the cold war etc.) having the right to detain you because you CD, this is an extreme point but if people do not stand up and say I want to change the general consensus that men can wear dresses etc, without people thinking that they're perverts etc. then we will always be looked down upon

[Satrana]

How about when a woman was a girly-girl before marriage and then decides to not wear makeup, cuts her hair short, starts wearing what are basically men's clothes and avoids skirts and dresses?



If we are brutually honest then this scenario occurs in probably 50% of marriages. There may be lots of different and valid reasons why this happens but many women are no longer interested in maintaining a feminine image after a few years together so many men do end up with a partner who no longer looks and behaves anything like the feminine girl he initially dated.

Everybody changes over time, nobody is the same person they were years earlier. Men accept women can masculize their appearance but few women accept any degree of feminization in men.

[Satrana]

**********************************************

When my wife wears my shirt or pants is that crossdressing?
When a man wears a skirt on a hot day or to be confortable at home, is that crossdressing?

Most would say No to the first and Yes to the second.

But neither is trying to pass or bring out the “other side”.



Correct, only some men crossdress for gender reasons, many crossdress just because they like the look and feel of the clothes. It is society's double standard which labels these men crossdressers and women not. There is no clear dividing line.

[Raychel]

I guess that my opinion on this is the same as my wife's. You should wear whatever you are comfortable in. I will admit that it is not the most sexiest thing to see a woman dressed in men's clothes. But then if a GG sees a crossdresser, I would bet that the frist thing that comes to her mind is NOT "He/She is hot, would I love to get him in bed"

[Cassy11]

I'm confused. When we talk about a double standard are we talking about a woman in pants which looks normal vs a man in feminine clothes which dosen't look normal, or women in general that don't dress feminine so that when we do we stand out?
If you look out of place expect to be closer look.