TS as a hobby?

[JenniferMint]

(I'm using M2F-specific terms in this post for simplicity, but it could apply to F2M too.)

Lots of people CD as a hobby.

But what about being TS as a hobby? A canonical TS could be defined as a genetic male who is mentally female, and cannot endure living life with a male body.

Now, what about a genetic male who is mentally androgynous, isn't overly uncomfortable living life with a male body, but would enjoy it significantly more with a female body?

The HBIGDA SoC requires that an M2F be full-time as a woman for one year before SRS will be granted. What if someone doesn't always present as female, but would prefer female genitalia over male? Is it so wrong?

[Nyx]

Why would it be wrong? In the end, it's really all a matter of choice... If you can get the money, you can find some rather skilled surgeons in thailand who will perform SRS with almost no questions asked, and no need for a reference from a psychiatrist nor any kind of specialized therapist (seriously).

The only thing I can suggest is that you should really be sure this is something you want... Because after SRS, there is no real "going back". The only *wrong* you can end up doing is to yourself.

[Maria D]

Everyone's different so a blanket statement won't work, but the closest I could come would be suggesting that a hobby is something you do, sometimes, whereas 'TS' is a state of being, regardless of whether you actually 'do' anything about it. You can transition, or never transition, and still be TS either way.
Unlike a hobby, you couldn't have female genitalia some of the time; it's the difference between building a plastic model as a hobby and building them full time as a living.
Your examples of what people could desire would probably be defined here as TG or TS, but it's still 'being' rather than a hobby. In no way does 'part time' invalidate someone's feelings though, and though perhaps confusing for people's expectations, it's not wrong to me. I fundamentally believe that everyone has a right to be who they want to be, as long as it doesn't deliberately hurt anyone. If you want to be male with female genitals, fine. If I want to be female, fine. If someone wants to be a banana, fine. That may require more surgical work though, and I'd think through the fruit-fly situation carefully before deciding, but, it's your decision, end of story.
Anyone or any society that seeks to take that right of choice away is wrong.

Take care :)

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Jennifer,

Is it wrong? Of course not. People do this type of thing every day: it's called cosmetic surgery.

In the end, that's all that SRS really is - cosmetic surgery. And there is no good reason that it should require a battery of doctors to 'sign off' in order to to have access to it. The 'reason' given is that no 'right minded' person would want to give up their penis because in today's society, one's physical sex is absolute.

Of course, this is crap. If one can 'fix' their nose, boobs, have face-lifts, butt-lifts, liposuction, pectoral-implants, collagen injections, Botox and have just about eny other part of their body modified, there is no logical reason to make one's groin 'off limits'.

But then, binary gender as a standard isn't logical.


I'm putting on the Nomex undies 'cause I'll get flamed for sure on this one.


The other issue here is one of money. SRS costs money - someone has to pay the docs, and if SRS were to classified as 'cosmetic', then transsexuals would not be able to get insurance to cover the costs.

This is in general - yes people, in general. It is not a blanket statement, applying to all transsexuals - and yet, I know someone will fail to see this point.

In general, transsexuals don't want to have GID removed from the DMS-IV. For every TS who would like to see GID 'off the books', there are hundreds who will fight for their right to be sick. They need to be diagnosed with an illness (GID as a a mental disorder) because - besides validating their sense of self - if they are 'diagnosed' with this illness - transsexualism - and the only 'cure' is to have SRS, than the 'treatment' can be covered by insurance. They don't have to pay out of pocket (or at lease not all of it). Yes, many insurance plans will cover SRS, and the transsexuals know it.

I've actually talked to transsexuals who have said as much, so please don't tell me no one thinks this way - I know better.


No Jennifer, there is no reason that SRS shouldn't be made available via informed consent. You are advised of the risks, sign in the line, and away you go. It needn't be any different than any other cosmetic procedure.

But don't expect to see this any time soon.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Maria D]

In terms of two genders, regardless of our evolved feelings, it was decided for us back when life was microscopic and blobby. It worked then, it won out against any competitors it had, it worked for the dinosaurs and it works for us now. Binary gender for genes makes sense, it's success across the planet is evident. It is logical.
Except...
Nothing's perfect is it? It only ceases to work when:

a: A mistake occurs. This happens a lot with every aspect of a living organism. Sometimes that'll involve gender. Such is life.

b: The organism is capable of caring. LIFE doesn't care, nor do genes, and until very recently in Life's history, nothing did. Pop goes the human, with its ability to understand, to question, to reason, to feel and to desire, and we have a problem. Of course, this isn't helped by a human's ability to force their opinions on other humans, by there you go.

So, I DO think binary gender makes sense, if you remove the human aspect.
ADD the human aspect, and that's a different game; there I think people have a right to be as they feel they are, rather than be constrained by the rules used by biology that go wrong sometimes. The desire to constrain, or deny surgery to someone who wants it is wrong, and probably based on misunderstood ideas about biology and what we as living things are.

(As an aside, I loath with a passion you'll never understand the arguement that being gay or TG is 'unnatural'. They exist in nature, therefore are natural, and there's going to be a reason not yet found for why they exist. Be morally bigotted if you want, bigots, but don't you ever dare twist science and beautiful biology to your ideas. Science is what it is, a documentation of the universe around us, and that's ALL.)

The last bit ties with the next, that is, the 'sickness' of being TS. I see your point, I won't flame you, in fact I'll validate you. I see it as a disease in the exact sense, and I feel that I need fixing. I MUST need fixing, and here's why:
I was born (that we know of) not happy with my body. I, whatever that bit of me is, felt that it was wrong, and eventually, after many years of depression, felt suicidal about this. This clearly is a disease, whether mental or physical. If not, what IS it?
Currently, SRS is my best option, perhaps that will change in the future. If a tablet existed that I could take and solve the mismatch I feel, lovely, I'd 'ave a bit of it.
Oh, and I say none of this for insurance purposes, I'm English. The DSM-IV isn't the tome of choice here either. I don't seek self validation, I know I'm a freak ;), I just seek to end the pain. Being in pain, I'd call that a disease: descriptive rather than validating.

Take care :)

PS: What's Nomex?

[Ms. Donna]

PS: What's Nomex?
http://www.nomex.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomex

Flame resistant material - keeps your ass from getting burnt. :D

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Nyx]

I think the only "wrong" in this is that, well, a hobby is usually a relatively simple, relatively riskless, enjoyable activity you can do when you want to take some time off for yourself, for fun. Crossdressing very much fits that definition. However, being a transsexual and transitioning clearly does not.

Transition is hard, very costly, can be very painful at times, and is something you must work on constantly and can't easily put aside when if don't feel like doing it anymore.

It's a fact: being a woman is fun. This is why crossdressing can be fun. However, as pleasing as the end result may be, transitioning to become a woman just isn't easy enough for it to be categorized as a "hobby". In my opinion, transition is a hard test. The cost and the risks are just too great.

Alot of guys out there secretly think that being a woman would be neat, and would gladly try it if there was an instant, painless, free, riskless way of trying it out for a month. I personally wished such a thing existed for a long time, but there just isn't. However, I realised my desire to be a woman and free myself was strong enough to make the cost worth it. The question you should ask yourself is: is the cost worth it for me? You have friends, a family, you may have a job and a girlfriend or boyfriend. Transition can result in losing some of these. Would you be willing to risk that to become a woman?

That being said, if you really want to do it, it's still all a matter of choice, nobody can stop you, just take your time, to avoid doing things you might regret.

[JenniferMint]

The question you should ask yourself is: is the cost worth it for me? You have friends, a family, you may have a job and a girlfriend or boyfriend. Transition can result in losing some of these. Would you be willing to risk that to become a woman?

friends: I moved a few months ago, and I usually present as female to my real-life friends. No problem here.

family: My mother doesn't know that I had my testicles removed, and doesn't know about my crossdressing. I intend to broach the subject with her when I'm ready, but I think I can get her to come around.

job: I run an online business---my physical body in the real world is irrelevant. No problem here.

girlfriend or boyfriend: I have a boyfriend, and he's heterosexual (the relationship started before I had done anything CD/TS-wise too... strange isn't it?). No problem here.

The above may be why I appear to be approaching the matter of TS so lightly---a lot of interpersonal relationship/job issues that most TSes have to deal with are irrelevant for me.

The only thing really stopping me from deciding to get SRS would be the cost, and concerns of health complications arising from the surgery. The latter one is pretty big actually---I've read personal accounts of people who had SRS and got serious complications, as well as about all the aftercare that is needed, and it kind of scares me.

[Sharon]

The only thing really stopping me from deciding to get SRS would be the cost, and concerns of health complications arising from the surgery. The latter one is pretty big actually---I've read personal accounts of people who had SRS and got serious complications, as well as about all the aftercare that is needed, and it kind of scares me.

Many TS people never undergo total SRS for the reasons you state, not to mention many others. To me, however, the male genetalia, and the lack of female, just doesn't "fit" with my self identity, and costs and fear of the surgery itself are things that I will deal with when the time comes. Actually, the cost part is already taken care of, and I have had so many surgeries(non TS) in my life, that a couple more don't make a difference. Besides, these will be the first surgeries that I will look forward to.

I do have a problem equating TS with "hobby." To me, "hobby" means a part-time endeavor that one enjoys doing simply for the pleasure of it. TS is so much more -- it is a permanent and irreversible condition, one that you feel with every fiber of your being. If you are TS, you know it, and no rationalizations or qualifiers alters that fact.

[Lisa Golightly]

Speaking as a TS... My issue with SRS and why I would not have it comes down to the basic biological factor of motherhood.

[Kimberley]

TS/TG as a hobby? For me it is a state of being. I believe that presentation is a separate issue entirely and probably driven as much by circumstance as by need.

Donna and I have discussed this in the past. I am a proponent of the HBISOC simply for the reason that it does place one seeking SRS in the position of examining her life in minute detail before committing. Yes, even at that mistakes do happen. The SOC are not cast in stone however but are a guideline for the professionals to use. It is therefore flexible on a case by case basis. However most professionals consider them as cast in stone so it can become a problem.

We KNOW who and what we are. We also know to the extent that we can live with our situation meaning "part time" as in presentation to full time for SRS. It is an individual choice and is often informed. Regardless, we do know mentally that we are wrong. This does or can create that "third" gender if you will consider it, as opposed to the cisgender ideal.

Finally as to the point of GID I am in full agreement with Donna on this. It is an excuse for other issues. One cannot treat a gender issue but one can be helped to understand the depression resulting from the confusion related to gender. That makes sense to me.

Should it be classified in the DSM-IV? Good question. I can see the argument for it in the context of insurance coverage in the US. It is different here in the Great White North and overseas as I understand it.

So part time? For me, definitely not mentally but in presentation it has to be an uncomfortable alternative due to circumstance. On this I speak first hand. Not my first choice for sure but certainly a choice made based on my priorities placed on personal relationships and needs.

Somedays I hate that choice so much I could scream... but it does keep the pdoc employed.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Maria D]

[b]a lot of interpersonal relationship/job issues that most TSes have to deal with are irrelevant for me.

Speaking as someone transitioning: No, they really aren't irrelevent. They might be now, but transition, or even srs without transition, is for life, and you have no idea where you'll be in, say, 10 years time. Will you still be doing the same job? If not, then the 'job' issue will become relevent to you some time. I know we like to think that we'll be with our partners in 50 years time too, but unless you've reached a deeply committed stage, you might have to face the 'relationship' issue too (my Mum and Dad were together for 19 years before divorce when I was 10, so I'm cynical ;)).

I'm not criticising you, but I think it would be good for you to consider these as issues to deal with before moving forward (or even as you do move forward), so they don't mentally trip you up later. In life, things always change, so be prepared, that's all I'm saying. (I would say 'expect the unexpected', but it's a stupid saying, because you can't.) :)

Take care :)

[GypsyKaren]

I also have a problem with calling TS a "hobby". To me, a hobby is a plaything, just another toy on the shelf. Being TS is my life, not some part time game that I have a choice as to whether I want to be involved in it.

Like Sharon said, if you're TS you know it, even if you try not to accept it or believe it. I knew I was a little girl when I was 3 years old, though I didn't understand it, and it only took me 50 years to come to grips with it. I'm sure there are many others who took a long time to reach that point too, and I doubt you'll ever hear any of them use the word "hobby" when describing the torment of trying to figure out just who you really are.

The reason I choose to remain non-op is simple, my wonderful wife Kat. I love her and the wonderful relationship we have, and I'm not about to mess with success. Do I feel cheated? Not in the slightest, I've chosen the road I'm on now, and I'm liking the drive.

Karen

[JenniferMint]

Speaking as someone transitioning: No, they really aren't irrelevent. They might be now, but transition, or even srs without transition, is for life, and you have no idea where you'll be in, say, 10 years time. Will you still be doing the same job? If not, then the 'job' issue will become relevent to you some time.

I love being self-employed, and I wouldn't trade it for working for someone else unless they gave me an "offer I can't refuse". I make pretty good money---the only problem is I end up working like 80 hours a week, but I enjoy what I do most of the time.


I know we like to think that we'll be with our partners in 50 years time too, but unless you've reached a deeply committed stage, you might have to face the 'relationship' issue too

What do you mean? My boyfriend is heterosexual, so to him, my being TS would be an advantage. He wouldn't go back later and say that he can't stand me transitioning and wish that I remained a guy.


I also have a problem with calling TS a "hobby". To me, a hobby is a plaything, just another toy on the shelf. Being TS is my life, not some part time game that I have a choice as to whether I want to be involved in it.

The same activity can be a hobby for some but not for others. Consider basketball for example. You could be an NBA basketball player, for whom basketball is your life and career. On the other hand, I might just play basketball casually on weekends with friends.

What I'm trying to say is, I realize being TS is not a hobby and is serious for canonical M2F TSes, but I'm thinking that it may be different for me.

[Maria D]

I love being self-employed, and I wouldn't trade it for working for someone else unless they gave me an "offer I can't refuse". I make pretty good money---the only problem is I end up working like 80 hours a week, but I enjoy what I do most of the time.

Wall Street crash? 90s recession? September 11th market changes? New technology changing working patterns?
As settled as we can get in the jobs we do, there isn't such a thing as a job for life, and though self employed, you can't predict the future.
As an example, me. I am happily settled as a lab technician making spectacles. I've done it since I was 18, on and off. I'm good, I'm easily employable and at my current place, where I am transitioning, I command a high salary. This is all great, yay go me, but is it? Laser eye treatment exists now, and will only get better, cheaper and more accessable as time goes on. What other eye correction options will be created in the years to come?Will my actual trade exist in 10 years? Probably, but will we be wearing glasses in 20? I fully expect that at some point, I WILL have to think about new career options. This is just simple forward thinking.
I don't know what you do, but I do know that markets change and that nothing is certain. Do you think in the mid 30s people thought that they'd end up conscripted and thrown at an enemy?
Just don't write it off as not relevent, that's all I'm saying. That way, if the worst does happen, you've mentally prepared. Think of what I'm saying as buying a smoke alarm.




What do you mean? My boyfriend is heterosexual, so to him, my being TS would be an advantage. He wouldn't go back later and say that he can't stand me transitioning and wish that I remained a guy.

What I mean is, though my Mum and Dad were together for 19 years, they ended up divorcing. They thought they were settled but ended up back 'in the dating game' so to speak.
So though you have no problem now, and that's fantastic, don't write the issue off in your head, just in case things go horribly wrong. It's only an issue if it does go wrong, but it's still an issue. How would you cope with trying to find a new partner as a man with female genitals, or as a woman, etc? Just think ahead, that's all I'm saying.
I'd hate to see anyone hurt because they went ahead with things without thinking things through, and then ran across issues that could have been addressed earlier.


What I'm trying to say is, I realize being TS is not a hobby and is serious for canonical M2F TSes, but I'm thinking that it may be different for me.

I think a hobby is something you can choose to do, as and when. In this context, CDing could be considered in this class. Generally, being TG or TS, in terms mentioned here (as in, wants to and will feminise the body in some way) is a permanent thing. It can't be put away or undone, like having tattoos could not be a hobby. It's an undoable modification. How would that be different for you?

Take care :)

[Natasha Anne]

Now, what about a genetic male who is mentally androgynous, isn't overly uncomfortable living life with a male body, but would enjoy it significantly more with a female body?

The HBIGDA SoC requires that an M2F be full-time as a woman for one year before SRS will be granted. What if someone doesn't always present as female, but would prefer female genitalia over male? Is it so wrong?

I'm not sure I understand. A mentally androgynous genetic female is still a female. I would think that a person such as you describe would be m2f but fall somewhere other than I would on the gender spectrum.

I would never consider changing genitalia as a hobby. It involves serious surgery. As for secondary sexual organs, obtaining a female body would require the use of hormones, and/or at the very least surgery and electrolysis.

I know plenty of androgynous women, and I do not think being stereotypically female is a requirement before ones needs to transition are recognized. Perhaps it might mean finding a decent psychiatrist, not just a Thai surgeon.

[Sarahgurl371]

I have never had a hobby that was the first thing on my mind when I wake up, and the last thing on my mind before bed. That caused me such mental anguish and inner termoil. That isolates me from life. That forces me to question my very existence, and every aspect of my life now and in the future. I am either a fanatic who is caught up in something I don't understand or TS. Its definately not a hobby. Hobbies are supposed to be enjoyable.

My two cents anyway. I wish it were a hobby, maybe then it would leave me alone once the urge was satisfied.

[~Kitty GG~]

I personally think that people should be able to make their own decisions regarding srs and not need permission from a pdoc or have to pass tests. I think we should all be accountable for all of our decisions.

Next.. I don't think that a job, or family, or friends or anything should be the reason that we do or do not do anything. I think priorities should. We gotta weigh things in all aspects of our lifes. And then choose the best combination of what is available that will make us the happiest. Sp saying that you can't do something that you really want to do because your job, family, or friends would be a problem is not the same as saying that you've chosen this great job that you love and so you're more happy to have that than srs.. etc. Same goes for spouse or family or friends. Cuz unhappy you is no joy to the rest of the world. And its not right to resent others for your choices or lack of choosing.

And lastly.. I think its a rare person who CDs as a hobby. A hobby is something you enjoy.. not something you can't live without. Generally people don't purge their hobby paraphenalia .. only to go out and splurge on it again. I doubt that there are many people who have to be closeted from their spouse and children to enjoy a hobby (other than porn.. LOL). And since I can't put CDing in the hobby catagory I could never put TS there.

I say choose what's right for you. And do it. I usually mentally live a situation that I intend to pursue.. I imagine every minute of every day what it would be like if I was in that new situation. And as easy as this is.. you'd be amazed at how often I find out from this simple exercise that its not all its cracked up to be.. or how often that it makes me even more sure that that's really the path I want to pursue.

Love & Hugs
~Kitty~

[gennee]

Each person is different. To some dressing is a hobby. I am a TG/TV. I am a transvestite whether or not I am dressed. I consider myself and look at myself as a transvestite. It courses my veins and I love what I have become and who I am.

Gennee