One For the English Gals

[Sweet Susan]

We seem to have many United Kingdom, British, and/or English sisters on this website. Seems like y'all pop up about every third or fourth woman on the site. So, my question is this:

I have always heard that crossdressing is more accepted in Britain than it is in the U.S. I have no idea if that is true or not, but I have heard that it is. Now, I understand that Allison is going through a bit of a row with a friend, and she is from Scotland ( I think ). I once saw an interview with Mick Jagger who said something along the lines of, "In England we kind of go off, ya know, and get dressed up like the girls when we feel a bit out of it. Just a way to handle the stress, and all." Is it true? Is crossdressing anymore accepted in Great Britain, England, Scotland, Ireland, etc., than it is in the good old, conservative U.S.A? :cool:

[Charlotte Elizabeth]

It all depends where you live in the UK. On somewhere like Brighton it would be more acceptable than other places.When I lived in shropshire, I knew a CD that warned me never to go out dressed there, as the local morons would either give you bags of verbal,or beat the crap out of you.

[Abraxas]

Don't, apparently, go out in Cambridge either.

[Julie]

Even here in London it isn't wise to go out in your finery in certain areas, you'd probably have two shades of ^*>t kicked out of you. Parts of the West End where there are many clubs things are a little more acceptable, most girls I know who are going to a club drive there en femme for safety reasons. Some of the clubs offer changing facilities but often charge quite a bit to use them, some times over £50 but this often includes a decent make up session.

Susan answering your question I do not think the UK is any safer for us than it is for you in the USA.

JJ

[Rachel_740]

Hi Girls,

I don't know if dressing is any more accepted in the UK than anywhere else in the world, but what I can say is that the only 'incident' I've had when out is when I was crossing the road some months ago (not that long after I started going out) and there was suddenly roarcus laughter from the car waiting from me to cross. The car then went round a roundabout a couple of times and the guy in there was shouting look at that guy in a dress.

I'm not one to go clubbing or anything like that, and I live in south west England, fairly rural, so perhaps these things work in my favour. Also, my looks have improved loads since then, with laser hair removal on my face, and learning how to do a bit of make-up (still far from expert). I have had one trip to London to see my doctor, which was up on the train, through the station to the underground, 20 minutes on that then a five minute walk to the docs office, obvoiusly followed by the return journey. This presented no problems what-so-ever, but again, it was the middle of the day. I have been in the pub a few times now (twice with Tammy - second time with Tamara as well) and a few weeks ago a rep who comes from up north about 3 or 4 times a year took me (Rachel) out to dinner.

I've had a few shopping trips now, using female changing rooms (last time the assistant even asked me if I wanted to try the clothes on, but they where tops and I'd never had any size issues from other tops in that shop, so I said no thank you.

I've been in the loo's numerous times now, mostly without seeing anyone else but I've passed a few GG's in there, again with no issues. I do have a letter from my doc clarifying my position for if anyone questions why I'm in the loo's though.

On the whole, I've had very good experiences all through and can't have wished for less hassle.

Rachel

[LauraB]

I do not feel that the Uk is any safer for Tgirls than anywhere else on earth.

We brits do have a tradition of acceptance of culture gender and what many would see as perverse behaviour. However i feel that this acceptance is often only within some well informed parts of the community.

I live full time as a girl and i am convincing enough to not get noticed (something that i am grateful for) However i have a few Tgirl friends who have been attacked and abused on the streets of London and even at private parties. Many Uk Tgirls would feel that the states are probabily safer for us Girls especially california which does have a bit of a reputation that anything goes and is acceptable. This is most likely a Uk misconception with the reality being that Tgirls have a difficult life anywear. there are some exceptions Brighton which has been mentioned which is almost the Gay capitol of europe. Brighton though has always had a reputation for the acceptance of sexual and moral alternative lifestyles. Queen victorias father (not so good with my monachs name i am afraid) Built the pavillion which is a over the top bachekor pad so that he might entertain his friends and many girlfriends away from the prying eyes of the London establishment and press.

Interestingly my own encounters with gay men bring me to believe that they are more against us than straight men.

A couple of years ago i meet a Gay man at work after a few months we were in a pub (bar in the US of A) and i came out to him. At first he did not believe me But after i had convinced him he said

"i would not have thought you were a pervert"

This idiot thought that i should be gay and proud and had a real issue that i do not think of myself as a gay man but as a girl therefore sleeping with men is in fact sleeping with the opposite sex to me.

Another gay man once told me that if i looked and acted a little more like a man he would sleep with me himself. I told him that if he was and acted more like a man i would let him. His reaction is the same as most of my other gay friends.

In short i feet that we are at the same position that the gay community were at 40 years ago. We might one day be accepted as people who for lots of reasons wear girls clothing or want to be girls we should be loved and looked after as we do add the colour and spice to what would be a very drab existence.


Love

Laura

lots of XXXXXXXXXXXXXX for all us GIRLS

[Charlotte Elizabeth]

I think we should all descend on a town somewhere and take over it. I nominate LauraB for Mayoress.

[Julie]

I think we should all descend on a town somewhere and take over it. I nominate LauraB for Mayoress.

So we're talking somewhere like the Elephant & Castle then? :D

JJ

[Amelie]

Laura, there is one thing i don't understand in your post. You say in your encounters, you find more gay men against you than straight men. Yet you also say Brighton the "Gay Capitol of Europe" is Ok because they are more tolerant of different lifestyles. I would think that if gay men were against "straight CDs" Brighton would be the last place for CDs to go to.
Also, if gay men are against straight CDs, why do many straight CDs go to gay clubs. Why don't the straight CDs go to straight clubs?
I will tell you why straight CDs do not go to straight clubs. It is in straight clubs where the straight CDs will recieve bodily harm. He will not be attacked in a gay club.
Yes. there are gays who will be hostile to CDs of any kind. But I can assure you that the gay man will not hit you with a baseball bat like the straight man would. Ask Jenny,, she will tell you it was straight men who attacked her.

One thing that also is curious to me, Laura. If you live full time as a woman, why are gay men questioning your sexual preference. They could see that you are a woman and leave it at that, they wouldn't even see a man, they would have no interest in you.
I have heard this talk about gay men on other forums. I don't know where these types of gay men are. I have been out to gay clubs for years, and I have never found one gay man say anything bad to me. Some might ignore me, but never have they been nasty.
So, next time A CD is walking down the street and they here voices behind them. The CD should pray that it is a bunch of gay men and not a bunch of hetro-thugs.

[LauraB]

Dear Amelie

Maybe i did not make my thoughts clear, i did not say and do not think that gay men would attack a CD, only that they do not accept us as NORMAL in the way that they themselves expect to be treated as NORMAL. A CD will mainly be safer in a gay club than a straight club. I was speaking at a personal level with gay men that i have known as friends. In fact Roger who is the gay man who told me i should be more masculine is still a friend and still holds those same views. He simply can not understand what CDing is all about. Or maybe he can't understand me. Brighton is a safe place useally for CD's or at least more so than any other town in the uk. tolerant of different life styles does not mean accepting of different life styles. I am sure that were a King or titled married person have a love pad in Brighton the newspapers would be all over it. My point about the Pavillion was to make it clear that Brighton started out as a town that would tolerate what many would see as unacceptable behaviour.

Like you i have also heard on gay sites bad attitudes to CD's The few gay men i know have had issues regarding Laura some one who is their friend or known to them and have not accepted me as a girl only as a boy who is a little mixed up. I do not offer this as a universal sterotype of gay attitudes only as my own knowledge of the attitudes of the gay men i have known.


" Interestingly my own encounters with gay men bring me to believe that they are more against us than straight men. "

This is clearly meant as a personal view and i am happy very happy to learn that others find that my experience of gay men is not theirs.

Your point about my gay friend questioning my life style is i feel a little nieve. Do you not question your friends choices if not openly then certainly in the quite place that is your own thoughts. You would not be Human if you did not


Charlotte Elizabeth

Mant thanks but i think i would make a terrible Mayoress, i dod not want to rule the world though it might be nice to be the best friend of the girl who does LOL


Julie J

Elephant & Castle

That might be a challenge too far still i am up for it if you are

Actually i have seen a few Girls out walking around the shopping center it was a few years ago now i rarely visit the Elephant any more.


Love

Laura
XXXXX

[Amelie]

The reason that I am a little upset is that when some one has a bad encounter with a gay man, he will say something like, gay people don't understand, or gay people don't like CDs. Yet when a CD has a bad encounter with a straight person they never say a straight people don't understand CDs, or straight people don't like CDs. Instead Cds use the word society when a hetrosexual mistreats them. Why don't CDs say hetrosexuals don't understand CDing. I'm sure everyone here has a hetrosexual person condeming them, but never do they say it is a hetrosexual, instead they say society. Yes Laura, you did have gay men bother you, but I am also sure hetrosexual men also bother you, but no CD ever says the hetrosexuals are against CDs.
I would never question my friends sexuality, I have no need to question my friends. What my friend does is of no concern to me, they are my friends, all they have to be are good people, nothing else.
As far as Brighton being tolerant but not accepting. This is a hell of a lot better than what the hetros will give you. The hetros are not tolerant as well as not accepting. In fact it is the hetros that are the bashers of the world.

Amelie

[Sweet Susan]

Well, that is certainly an interesting bit of repartee between Amelie and LauraB. I have found that most gay men I have encountered don't have much of an opinion at all about cds. Not that I've had all that many encounters. I find it interesting that most gay men aren't interested in cds, but then again, not being gay, I don't understand, anyway.

Anyway. It's been an education. I'm certainly surprised to learn that cding is not anymore accepted in England than in the USofA. While California may seem like a bastion of liberalness, it is actually a very conservative state, politically, as well as morally (whatever meaning you want to put on morals).

What about Europe? The Netherlands? Is crossdressing anymore acceptable in Holland than anywhere else? Sweden?

[DonnaT]

A lot of gay men are just like a lot of straight men!

:confused:

It's true. Many straight men look at a woman as either attractive or not. Sometimes, they will say, "she'd be hot if only . . . "

Many gay men will see the same thing in another man. "He'd look fine if . . ."

Now, imagine the straight man is looking at what appears to be a very pretty woman, but she's dressed butch. What do you hear? "What a waste!"

The gay man will see what appears to be a handsome guy, but the guy has a dress on. What do you hear? "What a waste!"

So where the straight man has a problem with how a woman is dressed, so to does the gay man. Both being superficial of course.

Now, imagine a second straight man is looking at what appears to be a very pretty woman, but she's a he. What do you hear? "Fag!" or worse. I don't think you'd here that from a gay man, would you?

I think I'd rather be misunderstood by the gay man, than run into the second straight man.

IMHO

[Sweet Susan]

My guess is, and this is only a guess, most straight men would take a gender bender up on a lark if they knew no one would know. Just my opinion.

[Fiona K]

Getting back to the main question, I guess certain areas of the country might be more tolerant, though having never gone "out" yet this is just an untested opinion.

I chuckled at Allison's post, when I was a kid 4 or 5 my mother made me wear a kilt and I was mercilessly hazed, to use a US term. As time has gone on there was a change in Scotland, late 70s early 80s where it be came OK to wear a kilt on occasions and this continues- Weddings, New Year, football matches etc. It is seen as pretty macho, especially on a cold winter's day with wearing the traditional underwear! Preferred the time I wore min in Vegas, that was a laugh but i wish I'd had a buck for everyone who asked if I was Irish! Grrrrrrr!

Areas that I'd assume were OK would be in the cities where tolerant, usually gay, groups of clubs and bars have sprung up- Soho in London's West end, Manchester's Villiage, Edinburgh Broughton St and, of course Brighton.

I wouldn't reccomend try it in any of the more rundown housing estates where the local gangs might take a little too much interest!

You won't see much in teh way of religious based predudice, just plain normal ignorance and intolerance- just like the US?

Fiona

[carolynhcd]

Everything is upside down and backward. Your brain re-inverts what your eyes see. Straights are really gay. Gays are really straight. CD's are alternately brilliant and desperately confused. Jung said that to have a sane reaction to an insane situation would be insane.

[Serena]

I haven't been in Britain, because I live in the U.S., so I can't be for sure, but from what I've heard, Britain is more accepting than America is. I don't know why, but a lot of epople in America are racist, sexist, and discriminating towards "odd" or "queer" people. If you're gay or a crossdresser, you go into the wrong neighborhood, and you could be hurt badly.

[chloe]

You wouldnt want to walk the streets of Newcastle (unless you really really PASS). I have seen quite a few CDers in the Gay village here though, and one of the bars here has a CD night. Its has changing rooms inside.. If your in the gay village you'll be fine, but I think it would be impossible to get there with out being beat up....

[Julie]

I haven't been in Britain, because I live in the U.S., so I can't be for sure, but from what I've heard, Britain is more accepting than America is. I don't know why, but a lot of epople in America are racist, sexist, and discriminating towards "odd" or "queer" people. If you're gay or a crossdresser, you go into the wrong neighborhood, and you could be hurt badly.

It isn't any different here in the UK, I do believe we're on a level par with this one.

JJ

[Fiona K]

Think you're right Julie, sadly
Fiona
xx

[Sweet Susan]

You wouldnt want to walk the streets of Newcastle (unless you really really PASS). I have seen quite a few CDers in the Gay village here though, and one of the bars here has a CD night. Its has changing rooms inside.. If your in the gay village you'll be fine, but I think it would be impossible to get there with out being beat up....

I have also heard that young English men enjoy beating people up. Seems odd, and I personally don't believe that it is true. But if it is, perhaps that is why Chloe mentioned the above. It's really easy to get beaten up in the USA, particularly in the South and in narrowminded neighborhoods in the rest of the country, and you don't have to be in a large city.

[Julie York]

As a matter of interest (possibly) the quote mentioned by Mick Jagger makes a little more sense when you get the context. It was just after the Stones released the album with them dressed as four RAF women on the cover. It caused outrage for lots of reasons, but mainly the cross dressing, and Mick Jagger was being flippant with the press. "Yeah yeah It was no big deal. We all dress up in the Uk" sort of thing.

I wouldn't dream of going out dressed up. It's scary enough doing it at home (but that's just me). The U.K. is as diverse as any other country. The big industrial cities have their normal share of kind considerate people, crazy people, wonderful people, gays Cds and people who would beat you up for fun. The smaller places might burn you as a witch (It be a boy...Nay I tell thee it be a girl!) BURN IT! BURN IT!

(Not my shoes! Please not the shoes!)

Where was I?

The U.K. is just like anywhere else really.
Yes, I think that was it.

[Julie]

I have also heard that young English men enjoy beating people up. Seems odd, and I personally don't believe that it is true. But if it is, perhaps that is why Chloe mentioned the above. It's really easy to get beaten up in the USA, particularly in the South and in narrowminded neighborhoods in the rest of the country, and you don't have to be in a large city.

Susan, what you have probably heard about is what they are now labelling over here "The Drinking Culture".

Normaly this is talking about the youth who are just barely above the legal drinking age (sometimes below) who can't control the ammount of beer or spirits they consume. For some reason they like nothing better than getting plastered at weekends and picking fights, they aren't brainy enough to be selective in who the want to punch the living daylights out of though.

JJ

[Jeanette H]

I've never been out dressed, but if I was going to, I wouldn't choose this neighbourhood as the place to walk around.

[Amelie]

What I am hearing from the UK girls is very surprising to me. It is also so sad to hear this. I didn't know it was so rough to go out dressed in the UK. I always saw pics of Boy George and his crowd in the streets of London, so I thought it was OK for CDs. This does not seem to be the case.
I live in a high crime area of Baltimore, but CDs can get around at night without too much of a hassel.
Still,, I am surprised to hear this about the UK.
Amelie

[MonaSmith]

What I am hearing from the UK girls is very surprising to me. It is also so sad to hear this. I didn't know it was so rough to go out dressed in the UK. I always saw pics of Boy George and his crowd in the streets of London, so I thought it was OK for CDs. This does not seem to be the case.
I live in a high crime area of Baltimore, but CDs can get around at night without too much of a hassel.
Still,, I am surprised to hear this about the UK.
AmelieHi Amelie,

I think that it is the same in most places. You are safe in a group, but on your own you become an easy target. I was mugged once coming home from a friend's house late one Friday night. I was in drab and don't generally get any hassle like that, as I don't look too friendly and am reasonally well built (mores the pity).
A lot of the trouble is that our culture has waves of these youth movements and for every Glam Rock or New Romantic wave there is a backwash of Chavs or Larger louts. It just so happens that acceptance and experimenting hasn't been much in evidence recently. I suppose Acid house and rave was the last time everyone just went out to have a good time and not cause trouble over here. Lets hope that the tide changes again soon.

[Julie]

What I am hearing from the UK girls is very surprising to me. It is also so sad to hear this. I didn't know it was so rough to go out dressed in the UK. I always saw pics of Boy George and his crowd in the streets of London, so I thought it was OK for CDs. This does not seem to be the case.
I live in a high crime area of Baltimore, but CDs can get around at night without too much of a hassel. Still,, I am surprised to hear this about the UK.
Amelie

Whenever Boy George ventured into unsafe areas he would always have an entourage of friends and one or two bodyguards, he too has been attacked in the past by homophoblc idiots.

JJ

[Amelie]

Whenever Boy George ventured into unsafe areas he would always have an entourage of friends and one or two bodyguards, he too has been attacked in the past by homophoblc idiots.

JJ

I guess this type of stuff goes on everywhere. Still, It's so sad to hear.
Amelie

[Fiona K]

Don't forget that Boy George is an ex-boxer Amelie!
Fiona
xx

[Julie]

Don't forget that Boy George is an ex-boxer Amelie!
Fiona
xx

It was this that made Boy George stand up to an antagoniser once, he still got beat up badly as others joined in.

Lovely new avatar Fiona.

JJ

[Fiona K]

Thanks JJ
Fiona
xx