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Ms. Donna
08-22-2006, 09:34 PM
Hi All,

I had to share this with everyone. Much food for thought to be found here.

The below can be found at here (http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/question.html) and is the exclusive the work of Madeline H. Wyndzen, PhD.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

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Questions to Help Thinking about Your Gender Identity

Chances are, if you're reading this page, you probably have some kind of gender-related issue. This page is a list of questions and thoughts I have put together to help you clarify your feelings. The page also explains various options other than transitioning and offers a caution against transitioning. Before you begin, I just would like to make a few clarifications that are basically just so you don't take anything I say too seriously. In the end you will have to choose for yourself whatever path is best for you. These are only my thoughts, feelings, and opinions. These questions are based on my personal experiences with transitioning. They're also based on all I've seen among other people who have transitioned or have considered transitioning.

Clarifications, Definitions, & Assumptions

These are just questions. This in not a validated psychological measure!! That is, this is not a 'test' for transsexuality. There is no psychological valid test which can say who is and who is not a transsexual.

These questions are just to help you consider many different aspects of transitioning. Your responses are not right or wrong answers. I'm not giving an "answer key" to "grade" your answers. There is no "perfect score." When I give personal examples as answers that only to help make clear what I mean by the question. I don't mean I feel my answers are the 'right' answers.

This is just some thoughts from a transsexual to her "gender-questioning" brothers and sisters. Though some of my questions come out of reading the psychological literature about us, this is NOT therapy! I'm not even a helping-profession psychologist. I'm a scientific psychologist, which means I design experiments to try and understand how people are. I have no particular therapeutic skills and I certainly should not be thought of as an "authority" on if you should transition. Actually, I don't even feel a therapist can be a true authority on if you should transition. It's something that only you can be the authority about.

These questions are for anybody who is questioning their gender identity. In order to write the questions for everybody, I need to use some psychological terms. Two that you should know are "biological sex" and "target sex." Your biological sex is based on the sex organs you were born with. Your target sex is the sex you are considering you might be. For example, if you might be a male to female transsexual then your biological sex is "male" and your target sex is "female."

I'm assuming that you spend most of your time presenting as your biological sex. For example, if you might be a female to male transsexual, then most of the time you present yourself as female (even if you present as a very masculine woman). If you already spend the majority of your life as your target sex, especially if you can't deal with being your biological sex, it's already probably pretty clear that you're a transsexual!

Questions

Imagine you could start life over, right from the moment you were born. Knowing everything you know now, you get to choose which sex you are born. What choice would you make? Why did you make that choice? What might be better about your life as the sex you chose? What might be worse about your life as the sex you chose?

Now try a slight twist on your hypothetical: Imagine you could start life over, right from the moment you were born. Knowing everything you know now, you get to choose to change one and only one of two things. (1) you can change the sex you're born as or (2) you can change your feelings so you never have any gender identity issues. That is, if you might be a Female-to-Male transsexual you can choose to be been boy or be born as a girl without ever feeling you are or should be a boy.

Most people are gender-schematic. That's a psychology term for people's tendency to divide people into boys and girls. Thinking back, try to remember a time where somebody of your target sex said, "Oh you just think/feel that way because you're a man/woman." How do you feel about being grouped that way? Did this cause you any hurt feelings? How did you respond? In general, how gender schematic are you? That is, do you often say things like "boys are É and girls are É" or do you try to minimize the groupings others make by saying things like, "maybe boys and girls are different like you say but it's not a very big difference."

Have you ever purposely dressed as or purposely behaved like your target sex? Did you do this in a 'big' way or a 'small' way, or both at different times? For an example take on of my personal 'small' ways like I wore big poofy schrunchies to hold back my long hair for several years before I ever considered transitioning. An example of a 'big' way is to go out for the day (or longer) presenting as your target sex. What motivated you to do these things? If you haven't done anything like this, why not?

Have you ever been accused of purposely dressing or purposely behaving like your target sex even though you weren't intentionally doing that? Also, has somebody ever pointed out how an aspect of your behavior is like your target sex even though you weren't aware of that? How did that make you feel? What did you think? Have you ever taken steps not to have traits like your target sex? For example, I used to keep my hands folded behind my back once somebody explicitly told me how girlish my hand gestures are.

During your early childhood (before puberty) what were your friends like? Describe your best friends. Were they boys or girls? What were you favorite types of play? When you played with toys 'meant' for your biological sex, did you play with them in the typical way? For example, I used to have matchbox cars (a stereotypically boyish toy) which I played with in a way that personified them as friends and family. It was only in the last few years when studying developmental psychology that I found out fantasy play like this is more typical of girls. What do your friend choices and activity choices from youth tell you about whom you are. Were there activities you were forbidden to do, that you really wanted to do? Why were you forbidden to do that? How did you respond?

Do you say things to yourself like, I'm not really a transsexual because I can't identify with the definition: "man trapped in a woman's body" or "woman trapped in a man's body." If you're saying that, you might consider the possibility that these are just pop-culture cliches, not definitions. There definitely are transsexual who say things like there's something "deep inside" them that tells them that they are a boy or girl. But there are also transsexuals who don't feel that way. You might consider finding out how other people think or feel about their transsexuality. One place to start is my introspective transsexual links page.

Do you say things to yourself like, "It's too late for me to transition", "I'm too old", or "If only I could go back to (some earlier point in my life) then I would transition." If you say things like that you might consider the possibility that you're making a classic reasoning error called "the fallacy of sunk cost." I wrote another essay on this topic which you can read in my "living life" section.

Everybody has lots of identities and gender identity is only one of them. For example, I have very strong feelings about being a scientist. I feel there's something scientists share in common and it's different form the way non-scientists usually are. "Scientist" is one of my identities. What are your identities? Which ones are most important to you. Are you willing to change your sex to affirm your gender identity? How might a sex change influence your other identities? For example, I was scared I might not be able to become a scientist anymore if I transitioned.

Do you really want to be the opposite sex or do you want to be a 'fantasy' of the opposite sex? Everybody has fantasies about what their life might be like if they make different decisions but often reality turns out to be a lot more mundane than we imagine. Have you considered realistically what you'll gain and lose by transitioning? Try this exercise: fold a sheet of paper into four sections and label them "pro-male", "con-male", "pro-female", and "con-female." Now write as many things as you can think of for each group. For example, under "con-female" write all the things you can think of that might be bad about being thought of as female.

Do you have "gender dysphoria" (i.e. you feel there's something really bad about you being perceived as your biological sex) or do you have "gender euphoria" (i.e. you feel there's something really great about you being perceived as your target sex). You might have both. If you don't honestly have gender dysphoria you might be a bit more cautious about the possibility you're not being realistic about your fantasies.

Do you feel there's anything wrong with being a gay man, lesbian woman, or a cross-dresser? If you do, consider if you're trying to cope with your fears about which you really are by believing you might be a transsexual. It's completely okay if you have secret fears of any of these groups. Most people do because of the way societies stigmatize these groups. I just hope you'll take some time to explore each of these groups. You'll probably find that all parts of the queer community include people you'll like and people you won't. You'll find people in each of these groups her are unbelievably nice and others who are completely obnoxious. If you spend enough time with any of these groups, you might see how diverse each group is and how they're just like everybody else.

Considering Your Options

Have you considered a less 'extreme' steps to deal with your gender identity issues. In my opinion, there are two broad ways you can take less extreme steps. One way is creating a 'secondary' life as your target sex. You might cross-dress on weekends or vacations or other occasions. Or you might get more involved in the trans, gender queers, drag, bigender, etc communities as just one aspect of your life.

Another broad less 'extreme' step to deal with your gender identity issues is to bring you closer to your target sex. You might tuck, bind, or pack. You might dress more androgynously. You might get optional surgeries like breast reduction or reductions of the adams apple. You might take other steps for your body like hormones or electrolysis. If you've been trying to act like you're biological sex, you might stop!!!!! You might just let yourself be a girlish boy or a boyish girl because you might discover that you could still have lots of friends and a life while still presenting as your biological sex. In fact, you might have much better relationships simply because you will no longer occupy so much of your time trying to be hide something! You might even start telling people you identify far more with your target sex than your biological sex.

You might consider therapy because it can help with many aspects of our life. I never actually had therapy to help me with gender issues because I didn't go to therapy until after I was presenting as female a large part of the time and I went to therapy presenting as female and requesting help with HRT and SRS. But even so therapy has been very valuable for me in dealing with my self-esteem issues. You can read more about my experiences in therapy in my psychology section. Transitioning helped me a great deal with self-esteem and other issues, but therapy helped me a great deal too. Remember you don't need to go to therapy to transition; you can go to therapy just to improve the quality of your life. You don't even need a specialist in gender identity issues to get a lot of help from a therapist.

Important Note of Caution

Everybody who transitions is not happy with their decision! I even know several post-op transsexuals who, though they say they're happier, that's not so easy to tell. I have met several post-op transsexuals who are filled with anger and hate and never move passed it. I have met several transsexuals who live in a 'transgender' sub-culture rather than being a part of the larger world. I've seen people who once had families and careers that give up everything and 'fortunately' have a huge divorce settlement. I've seen people who quit their jobs (with some rationalization about why they couldn't possibly transition while there) and move into a small apartment. Others are fired. I've seen people use their life savings to stay hidden in the 'transgender' sub-culture for years but be able to transition because they would spend their life-savings. I've asked a transsexual who had plenty of money but hid why she didn't get a job so she could explore what it's like to live as a woman. Why not get a job as a waitress to interact with other people who aren't transsexuals? I was worried about her because she became reclusive and she didn't act anything like what most women act like. But being a waitress was "beneath her" and getting a job in her field was "obviously" not possible because no women could have her resume. I've seen people who say I just "had" to transition. They're "happier: now but all they ever talk about is their past. They never seem to have hopes and dreams for their future. They dwell in anger at religious institutions or ex-spouses, or family members, or somebody else who's to blame. I've even had to stop talking to some transsexuals because it was just too much for me to hear their same angry stories over and over again. They couldn't stop and they couldn't change their stories because their stories were all about the past. Though how could they change? They had no life except their past as their biological sex.

I'm not the only one who notices this. When I mentioned it to my therapist, she said she saw the same thing. She said there are transsexuals who "rather than coming out of the closet, merely come out into a bigger closet." I don't mean to suggest that this is inherently bad. You might really love a life as part of a 'transgender' subculture. But that's very different from a life as a man or woman. Please be clear about what you're trying to achieve when you transition. Some people really are transgenderists. Overall I feel they're pretty cool even though I don't personally identify with them. Transgenderists really are happy and self-confident with their choice to challenge a binary gender system. But there are also other people who live outside of their real culture because they're too scared or angry or lack the confidence to join the world. Throwing out powerful rhetoric of "thwarting the binary gender system" means nothing if it comes from somebody who hates the world, loses his or her confidence to face life, and doesn't like himself or herself as a person. Sometimes "transgenderism" is just big fancy words for hiding a big mistake.

I don't mean to say you have to come-out one day and be completely self-confident and happy as your target sex. Like, even after being full-time over a year I was nervous about teaching my own class for the first time as a girl. I taught before as a boy. But being nervous didn't mean I gave up on teaching. I love teaching! And teaching those classes was an awesome experience! I love how I got to relate to my students as myself! That just gives me more confidence to face all aspects of life and be myself! Every moment I live as a girl, even when bad things happen, helps empower me to live and grow and be happy. I used to pour myself entirely into academic stuff. I became reclusive to the world and more and more socially awkward. And I could rationalize it to myself in all sorts of ways including how much more successful I was going to be than all those average people wasting their time in social things are. And in some ways I was right. I'm probably not going to be this amazing scientist I could be if I put everything of my spirit into that. But I hated people. I hated life. I considered suicide constantly since third grade. But I haven't even considered committing suicide once since going full-time. Every day I learn more about myself. I take more risks. I assert myself. I really live. And I'm happy.

The irony is that I see some people whom transition in the opposite way. I know what it's like to hate the world and hate everybody. And I can feel it in some people I've met in the 'transgender' community. That they have intellectual sounding ways to justify hating themselves means nothing to me because hating yourself isn't happiness no matter how intellectual it sounds.

A Final Comment

As you've read my questions and comments to help you clarify your choices, you may have decided you really are a transsexual or you really aren't a transsexual. But I hope you'll consider rethinking about your decision in another way. It's doesn't really matter if you are or aren't a transsexual. You are you! And people can redefine transsexual so it means just about anything! There are even many psychologists who define transsexual solely as somebody who transitions. That's it. And it's possible for people to get caught up in debates about if they "really are a transsexual." But the real question, and the only question, you need to answer is this: what path for your life will let you be happy?

Best wishes in your personal journey and finding your personal happiness.

Madeline

Kimberley
08-22-2006, 10:27 PM
My only real issue here is the "support" of Gender Dysphoria. Otherwise this is most excellent.

Kimberley

Julogden
08-22-2006, 11:48 PM
Hi Donna,

Wonderful stuff, thank you for posting it.

Carol:hugs:

RuthChambers
08-23-2006, 06:49 AM
Interesting link, thank you.

Reading Madeline's web site I was struck by the issue of keeping an information web site up to date. As she says, she has moved on, does not have the time to respond to individual emails, so at what point do web sites have a shelf life ?

I have noticed a number of links on the TS road map dont work. Same problem that the larger the web site the more work there is in maintaining it !!!!

Just a thought, Ruth

Ms. Donna
08-23-2006, 08:47 AM
My only real issue here is the "support" of Gender Dysphoria. Otherwise this is most excellent.

Dysphoria is defined as "A state of feeling unwell or unhappy; a feeling of emotional and mental discomfort and suffering from restlessness, malaise, depression or anxiety."

One thing I do not dispute is the existence of 'Gender Dysphoria'. I can honestly say that I have experienced all of the above as a result of my gender.

What I do dispute is GID (Gender Identity Disorder) as a valid psychological condition. GID exists simply because it has been declared that all men are male and all women are female - and to feel otherwise is indicative of some psychological condition. Of course, the same was said about homosexuality - that is until the psych community came to their senses and dropped the differential on it.

GID seeks to maintain the status-quo with regards to gender roles and society. It is the creation of males and females who see themselves as men and women. Of course being a man and male or a woman and female seems 'correct' and 'natural': it's who they are. But they are not us. To declare that because we do not identify as they do, that we are 'sick' and have a mental 'disorder' is not only arrogant on their part, it's hurtful, patronizing, demeaning and demoralizing to us. It sets the transgendered apart as something less than the cisgendered. It marginalizes us and mocks who we are.

All this because we don't feel like the boys and girls we were told we should be. No one ever asked us what we wanted to be.

Why should wanting a choice be so wrong?

The dysphoria is real: and as self accepting and understanding as I am of all this, it does manage to knock at my door now and then. Emotional discomfort, restlessness, depression... these are facts of life for us. Maybe we deal with it better as we become more accepting and time goes on, but it never completely goes away.

But the dysphoria is not a disease. It is a by-product of having to live as - to be - something which we are not. It is our reaction to what amounts to an impossible situation. And it comes as no surprise that if the situation improves, the dysphoria fades.

Love and Stuff,
Donna

Kimberley
08-23-2006, 09:12 AM
As a catch all for the restlessness, depression etc, then gender dysphoria is real, but the larger question still remains, is the cause of all this discomfort gender related or do the issues that cause it lie elsewhere?

For instance if a marriage is strained we will feel all of the above and it may manifest itself in changes to our "normal" behaviour so that we (or others) tend to blame it on gender issues. (A lot of that on these forums)

The other problem I have with it is that if one is accepting of one's gender, a, b, or c then how can gender dysphoria exist? Acceptance of self is the real key to overcoming this situation as both you and I know. After that it is maintenance; personal relationships, professional relationships, social relationships.

I believe that being who and what we are, we are far more sensitive to the world around us, perhaps even surpassing that of many GG's. We tend to build mountains out of molehills all too often. The cycle repeats. We start doubting, questioning and the whole acceptance thing gets revisited.

So in the context that gender dysphoria exists as a catch all, okay, but I believe the problems usually lie elsewhere. The solutions (at least in my case) require addressing issues outside of gender issues. I have found that gender issues seem to fade as these other issues are addressed.

I agree that GID is total **** and for exactly the reasons you stated.

Just more musing from moi.

:hugs:
Kimberley

Ms. Donna
08-23-2006, 10:17 AM
As a catch all for the restlessness, depression etc, then gender dysphoria is real, but the larger question still remains, is the cause of all this discomfort gender related or do the issues that cause it lie elsewhere?
I think we like to pawn much of it off on 'gender issues'. I know for a fact that many of the issues between my wife and I have little if anything to do with my 'gender'. And yes, I have tried to make a connection between them because it is easier for me to rationalize my actions if that is the cause.


The other problem I have with it is that if one is accepting of one's gender, a, b, or c then how can gender dysphoria exist? Acceptance of self is the real key to overcoming this situation as both you and I know. After that it is maintenance; personal relationships, professional relationships, social relationships.
The dysphoric component here is not the relationship between my gender and myself. It is between my gender and society as a whole: a largely ignorant and relatively unaccepting society. Being who I am puts me at odds with society. And while I'm usually quite able to 'deal' with it, it gets to me sometimes. I have had - and still do have - have very real gender related discomfort and it is not likely to go away.

We have some control with regards to one on one relationships. However, being out and in the world presents situations over which we have little or no control. It is those cases which are largely the issue. Being stared at, talked about, pointed to - these are things which one can largely ignore. But sometimes they hit you - and hit you hard. Can I control this? Sure: I can get a haircut, put on a suit and no longer attract attention. You want to see dysphoria in action, give me a few weeks like that and ring me up.


I believe that being who and what we are, we are far more sensitive to the world around us, perhaps even surpassing that of many GG's. We tend to build mountains out of molehills all too often. The cycle repeats. We start doubting, questioning and the whole acceptance thing gets revisited.
I believe we are sensitive in a different way. Our's is a different reality - one in which we are always just a bit out of phase with everyone else. We see and are effected by things by which the cisgendered are largely unaffected and take for granted.


So in the context that gender dysphoria exists as a catch all, okay, but I believe the problems usually lie elsewhere.
As I said, I do agree that we attribute more problems to 'gender' than we ought. I think that it's because for so long this has been such a focus in our live that we begin to perceive all our problems as somehow being caused by this one thing. Basically, we get tunnel vision - unable to see anything other than our gender issues as impacting our lives.

Keep musing girl... :)

:hugs:

Love & Stuff,
Donna

Teresa Amina
08-23-2006, 01:55 PM
Dysphoria is defined as "A state of feeling unwell or unhappy; a feeling of emotional and mental discomfort and suffering from restlessness, malaise, depression or anxiety."

Glad to see a good definition. Somehow I blasted past that somewhere and have struggled with just what Dysphoria means because it often seems to be used in a sense of self-loathing, which I do not feel.

Maria D
08-23-2006, 02:52 PM
What I do dispute is GID (Gender Identity Disorder) as a valid psychological condition. GID exists simply because it has been declared that all men are male and all women are female - and to feel otherwise is indicative of some psychological condition. Of course, the same was said about homosexuality - that is until the psych community came to their senses and dropped the differential on it.

GID seeks to maintain the status-quo with regards to gender roles and society. It is the creation of males and females who see themselves as men and women. Of course being a man and male or a woman and female seems 'correct' and 'natural': it's who they are. But they are not us. To declare that because we do not identify as they do, that we are 'sick' and have a mental 'disorder' is not only arrogant on their part, it's hurtful, patronizing, demeaning and demoralizing to us. It sets the transgendered apart as something less than the cisgendered. It marginalizes us and mocks who we are.

It's not been 'declared' that all men are male and all women are female, it's simply expected, because the vast majority are that way, and nature evolved that way. No, that isn't us, and that does mean we have a disorder. We don't match the pattern expected, like a flower with extra petals: very pretty and unusual, but 'wrong' none the less. We are just vessels for our genes, that's all life is, and life has no concept of life. It doesn't care the odd mistake or oddity; indeed sometimes an advantage is conferred. It's only humans that care for the differences and notice mistakes. Trees have sexes, they probably make mistakes, but I've never seen one care.
Whether it hurts, patronises or demeans depends on how the 'wrongness' is viewed. It doesn't have to be negative, does it? I rather gather that polydactyls actually have an advantage over us mundanes, but that doesn't stop doctors whipping them off for the sake of normality, does it?

My point is, trying to fight negative attitudes by denying anything is wrong probably won't work, because from their perspective, something clearly IS wrong, biologically rather than morally, which it's not. I hate morals anyway. Rather than say it's not wrong, I choose to think that it's a wrong that doesn't matter, or rather shouldn't matter. It should be an accepted issue that would get an 'oh, ok' rather than a 'You're a WHAT?'
I am looking forward to the day when a group of girls won't go down the road chanting 'she's a man' as much as the next girl (it hurt), I guess we just have different ways of looking at this issue.


All this because we don't feel like the boys and girls we were told we should be. No one ever asked us what we wanted to be.
Why should wanting a choice be so wrong?

Again, it's assumed, like your eye colour. Look, you can see it, that's how it is they say. Of course, for some of us, that's not how it is, but there just aren't enough of us visible for TG to be an issue in people's heads. SO many people have never heard of it until they found out about me, how can we expect them to accept their children or understand when it's alien to them? They never knew to ask...
Education, and buckets of it eh? :)



But the dysphoria is not a disease. It is a by-product of having to live as - to be - something which we are not. It is our reaction to what amounts to an impossible situation. And it comes as no surprise that if the situation improves, the dysphoria fades.

Blame the shoes for the bunion sure, but it's still a bunion isn't it?

Take care Donna :)

Ms. Donna
08-23-2006, 04:20 PM
It's not been 'declared' that all men are male and all women are female, it's simply expected, because the vast majority are that way, and nature evolved that way.
Nature evolved 'male' and 'female': humans assigned gender roles, created the social constructs 'man' and 'woman' and the expectation that 'men' are male and 'women' are female.

Nature made sex, we made gender.


We don't match the pattern expected, like a flower with extra petals: very pretty and unusual, but 'wrong' none the less.
Why does different equate to wrong. Why can't different just be different?


It's only humans that care for the differences and notice mistakes.
Why are they mistakes? Perhaps out interpretation of nature is more a mis-interpretation thereof? Perhaps that which we call a mistake is very much nature's intent. We simply do not know.


I rather gather that polydactyls actually have an advantage over us mundanes, but that doesn't stop doctors whipping them off for the sake of normality, does it?
This doesn't make it right. The same is done for intersexed infants. Why is it assumed that intersexed is wrong? In almost all cases, the 'corrected' child winds up worse off than if they had been left alone. They often have limited or no sensation, gender identity issues cause the docs made a bad guess. They have a lifetime of problems because someone decided their crotch needed to 'look right'.

Different is not bad or wrong. Different is simply different.


My point is, trying to fight negative attitudes by denying anything is wrong probably won't work, because their perspective, something clearly IS wrong, biologically rather than morally, which it's not.
Unless people are willing to challenge this, it will never change. It's not a wrong that doesn't matter - it matters greatly because it perpetuates the notion that we are sick, defective, broken, disordered, deranged - choose your label. You know you're not 'sick' - why accept being categorized as such?


Education, and buckets of it eh? :)
I'd rather educate that be complicit in the fraud.


Blame the shoes for the bunion sure, but it's still a bunion isn't it?
Well, I'd chuck the shoes in that case. ;)

In this case, I can't chuck the shoes - I'm stuck with them. All I can do is try and have them adjusted to fit a bit better. :)


Love & Stuff,
Donna

Maria D
08-23-2006, 05:53 PM
Birds have gender roles, lions have gender roles, in fact so do most 'social' animals; it's not a human construct, except in the 'expectation' sense. A female lion behaves like a female lion because she is female, and she fills her gender role. Of course, it's possible there are TG lions, but how that'd manifest and how the pride would 'deal' with it I have no idea.
We probably have gender roles now because the animal that 'human' evolved from did too; it's a function of nature that makes sense.
Of course, as with everything humans alone can and have stepped outside nature and built our own things on top. I doubt nature had bigottry in mind when it was evolving gender, for instance.

Different covers both expected differences and abberations. My friend born with no bladder was 'made' wrong; she didn't fit the pattern of a human properly. Thalidomide caused people to be 'made' wrong. Other differences like eye colour fall within the 'pattern' of a human and aren't 'wrong'.
I am happy to say something is wrong when it is, and I get the feeling that you, like society, see the use of the word 'wrong' and assume it is negative; it isn't. Different can be wrong, without being negative. Wrong isn't a bad thing. I don't need to prove I'm not wrong to validate myself as 'right', I'm happy to be an abberation; they happen, I happened.
From a rose's point of view, those big lovely colourful heads we cultivate are wrong, they don't always reproduce, but noone views a rose negatively. It's just a point of view, and if society thinks wrong is bad, that's what needs to change.
I say if, I KNOW it does, but then, irritatingly, there's probably a good evolutionary reason for 'fitting in' and non-acceptance of difference. So says the latest research anyway. That's probably why it's so hard to fight against; people find it so easy to drop back to the base instincts and say something that picks on an abnormality. I always had 'shortarse' but hey, worked in my favour eh? ;)

In terms of mistakes, it's hard to know what is:
a) nature's intent.
b) a random mistake.
c) a deliberate mistake that confers an advantage to others, like sickle cell anemia.
Of course, nature's intent could be that the random mistakes ARE the intent; change is the drive and the objective. We could be intended, or we could be the equivalent of a factory worker forgetting to fit the mudflaps sometimes on your new Focus. Given that there are so few of us in the population (though of course that's so hard to tell) I tend towards the 'odd mistake' view rather than 'planned', especially given how complex humans are to put together, I couldn't even build the Lego Car properly, but who knows? I rather suspect that everyone has building mistakes somewhere, but most don't show. We are unlucky enough that it does, but lets be honest, luckier than some others.

What I said about polydactyls wasn't saying it was right, quite the opposite; it's an example of how society is both a pusher of conformity, and an assumer that the individuals want to conform. I don't justify it, I abhore it.

You group 'bad' with 'wrong', you seem to make the same asumption as society. Different might be wrong sometimes, but it isn't bad.
You say 'why accept being labelled being categorized as such?'
I don't, but that doesn't mean arguing I'm not wrong, it means showing that wrong isn't bad. I like to fondly imagine Leonardo splashing away on the Mona Lisa, and sneezing as he gets to the smile.
'B*GGER!
Oh... hang on...It's not what I wanted, but it's got a certain something. No one'll buy it now though.'
:)
I think the shoes need some wearing in, I certainly have the odd blister, but hopefully in time...

Take care :)

Kimberley
08-23-2006, 09:14 PM
Wrong and right, male and female, arent we polarizing the definitions in perpetuity?

I think that we need to focus on the change, that being what and who we are. We are different but none the less, still the same. Our gender and sexual identities are not congruent but our minds and feelings are real. Ir seems fruitless to argue polarized points that really only reinforce the negative stereotypes the larger cisgender community view us with. Even the psych profession cant get it right, or in most cases even "get it".

The fact remains we are as we are, the reasons for it may be debatable but really are pointless outside the academic community who cant agree on much to begin with. As I see it our greater task is to inform, not shock, cajole, not scream and most important, be who we are and show that our moral values are the same as everyone else.

:hugs:
Kimberley

Dee 1062
08-23-2006, 10:37 PM
Thank you for posting:)

Ms. Donna
08-24-2006, 08:29 PM
I always enjoy your point of view, Maria, because it makes me think things through. We may not always agree, but I usually come away having learned something. Thank you. :hugs:


I suppose what you call ‘gender roles’ I see as ‘sex roles’. Your examples from the animal kingdom are quite accurate – as social creatures, there are definite roles played by males and females. However, I doubt that there is any ‘thought’ involved regarding a decision to act in such a way. Assuming that other ‘lower’ animals are not self aware (an interesting discussion for another thread, probably on an different forum) their actions are by and large instinctive. Males and females act as they do largely because they are wired that way.

Humans, unfortunately, developed this self awareness thing and it was all downhill from there. Able to reflect on our thoughts and actions, we learned that we could ‘override’ nature and act in opposition thereof if we wanted. As you point out “Of course, as with everything humans alone can and have stepped outside nature and built our own things on top. I doubt nature had bigotry in mind when it was evolving gender, for instance.”

As I see it, ‘gender’ as we refer to it as a uniquely human creation. I say this because gender roles can and do change across races, cultures and time. What is a ‘masculine’ gender trait may very well be considered ‘feminine’ years later. And it is thousands of years of acting in opposition to our ‘sex roles’ that has erased all but the most basic of the ‘instinctual’ programming.

With regards to different being wrong, I understand your point. I will concede that there are times when different is ‘wrong’ or more properly ‘incorrect’: e.g. the example of your friend. However, as you point out, society in general does consider ‘wrong’ as something negative.

I am not happy to be ‘wrong’ or an ‘apparition’ for the simple reason that society does consider it to be something negative or bad. The likelihood of society, as a whole, adopting the POV that wrong is ‘good’ is nonexistent. As long as I am ‘wrong’, I will always be viewed in a negative context by society.

Whether or not we are what nature intended is, IMO, a moot point. Intended or not, we are here – we exist. Are we so ‘wrong’ that we should be denied the same consideration afforded everyone else in society? I don’t think so and I don’t believe you think so either. And yet, because wrong is bad – because we are considered apparitions and therefore defective – we are marginalized: relegated to a second class status in society.

What does one do with something which is broken? They throw it away: it becomes trash. And one of the more pejorative terms used to describe us is gendertrash because by and large, that is how we are viewed. Parents disown their trans-children and many become runaways, living on the streets. They become pros and turn tricks because society has told them that that’s all they’re good for. They become throw-away people. Those of us lucky enough to have made it as far as we have usually succeeded by hiding long enough to ‘get a life’, only to have to now put it in jeopardy so we can maybe be true to ourselves and live with a little bit of dignity. We are used, abused and killed because our gender is ‘different’ – because it is ‘wrong’.

You say different might be wrong sometimes, but it isn't bad. I don’t think different is wrong or bad. I am who I am because I’m different and given the opportunity, I’d not trade that in. You say I group 'bad' with 'wrong', making the same assumptions as society. Personally, it doesn’t impact who I am or how I identify. But I do not live in a vacuum – I’m out in public interacting with people. In that context, I have to say that it does matter – it matters a lot. As a rule, society sees different as wrong, and wrong as bad.

I didn’t make the rules, I just have to live under them.

I hate the shoes – they don’t fit and they’re damn fugly too. I want strappy sandals with a kitten heel. But no matter where I look, they are never in my size. :(

Love Ya,
Donna

Maria D
08-30-2006, 01:36 PM
I always enjoy your point of view, Maria, because it makes me think things through. We may not always agree, but I usually come away having learned something. Thank you. :hugs:
I feel the same, and enjoy our debates :)


I suppose what you call ‘gender roles’ I see as ‘sex roles’. Your examples from the animal kingdom are quite accurate – as social creatures, there are definite roles played by males and females. However, I doubt that there is any ‘thought’ involved regarding a decision to act in such a way. Assuming that other ‘lower’ animals are not self aware (an interesting discussion for another thread, probably on an different forum) their actions are by and large instinctive. Males and females act as they do largely because they are wired that way.

Humans, unfortunately, developed this self awareness thing and it was all downhill from there. Able to reflect on our thoughts and actions, we learned that we could ‘override’ nature and act in opposition thereof if we wanted.
Though we can override nature, we only built on top of what already existed. Animals are wired that way, and like it or not, we are still part of kingdom animalia. A lot of what we think of as 'bad' traits, such as selfishness, lack of caring, wanting something and fighting for it, the mob mentality (a lovely example happened last year when Ikea opened a new store. On the opening night at midnight they always had amazing reductions for the lucky few to get in. The massive queue of people became a mass of people clammering to get in, which became a riot, which injured loads of people and damaged the new store too. Ikea don't do the opening reductions now. A worse example would be the aftermath of hurricane Katrina last year, it didn't take long for every man to look after himself.) and so on are animalistic traits. In many ways that hated entity 'society', the very thin veneer of human civility, is the expression of the cerebrum, but it doesn't take much for the cerebellum to butt in. We do act like animals more than we like to think.


As I see it, ‘gender’ as we refer to it as a uniquely human creation. I say this because gender roles can and do change across races, cultures and time. What is a ‘masculine’ gender trait may very well be considered ‘feminine’ years later. And it is thousands of years of acting in opposition to our ‘sex roles’ that has erased all but the most basic of the ‘instinctual’ programming.
I do still think that the instincts are alive and well, driving more than we think, but in this context 'gender' is a human creation, certainly. What 'is' maculine and feminine changes, but the polar concepts remain. I'm not really sure here but do/i] humans act outside their 'sex roles'? In terms of man dominating woman, or the man breadwinning while the woman stays at home, did these ideas evole from our tree swinging days (assuming we did, I was never good on the rope swing at school) and we simply carried them forward until very recently, or did we as thinking humans add them later, when we settled to farming from our nomadic lives? I tend to think we took them from our ancestors as we became human, with human men simply doing what human men's ancestors did. I'm probably wrong ;)



With regards to different being wrong, I understand your point. I will concede that there are times when different is ‘wrong’ or more properly ‘incorrect’: e.g. the example of your friend. However, as you point out, society in general does consider ‘wrong’ as something negative.
Yes, it does, and it's that that I seek to change. Of course, cold fusion and a cure for the common cold would be nice too...


I am not happy to be ‘wrong’ or an ‘apparition’ for the simple reason that society does consider it to be something negative or bad. The likelihood of society, as a whole, adopting the POV that wrong is ‘good’ is nonexistent. As long as I am ‘wrong’, I will always be viewed in a negative context by society.
Yes, I think that's where we really rub. You won't be wrong because society says it's bad; I think I am wrong, and desire that society see me as I am and realise that it isn't bad. Of course, as a role model for the TG life I'm not a good example, I'm a bitch, but I do have good legs. :heehee:
I can see the attraction in your pov, honestly I can, and the ultimate aim of acceptance is the same. You're probably right about the chances of it working, but hey, someone wins the lottery most weeks, right?


Whether or not we are what nature intended is, IMO, a moot point. Intended or not, we are here – we exist. Are we so ‘wrong’ that we should be denied the same consideration afforded everyone else in society? I don’t think so and I don’t believe you think so either. And yet, because wrong is bad – because we are considered apparitions and therefore defective – we are marginalized: relegated to a second class status in society.
Legally in this country, we are protected, but that doesn't change people's attitudes, and it will likely take generations. Hell, we still have racists in the 21st century, how has that happened? *sigh*
There are even people who make fun of limbless or paralysed people, there probably always will be. Again, it's probably a legacy animal thing, and probably (sadly) helped us become successful creatures. Nature doesn't care the feelings of each 'cycle', and if this behavior somehow ensures the best genes pass on, so be it. It doesn't seem fair, because it isn't, but I do hope humans really can get past that one day.


What does one do with something which is broken? They throw it away
Or fix it.
I'd like society to realise that the best way is transition (or really whatever the person needs to be happy) rather than electrodes stuck to the head, but again that will take education.

Parents disown their trans-children and many become runaways, living on the streets. They become pros and turn tricks because society has told them that that’s all they’re good for. They become throw-away people.
That's true sadly. My fiancee's parents are pretty much willing to cut her out of their lives rather than ever see me again. They claim to love her, and they claim to be good catholics too. You'll always get some people that will never accept, but hopefully the next generations will improve things further and maybe it'll be ok one day.
In the mean time, life sucks for us. I know it does, I know it hurts too, I live under the same rules and it is hard to argue back sometimes, when the world says you're bad. I used to believe it myself once, I have the scars to prove it.
I have the strength to argue back now, I have the balls (sic) to say 'no, I will not go away, no I will not die, no I will not accept that I'm bad, I will challenge you're views instead.'
In fairness, it's been only a few times that I've had to defend myself, I've had a fantastic response from almost everyone I know. This does give me hope for a better future; the seeds really are starting to grow.


You say different might be wrong sometimes, but it isn't bad. I don’t think different is wrong or bad. I am who I am because I’m different and given the opportunity, I’d not trade that in. You say I group 'bad' with 'wrong', making the same assumptions as society. [I]Personally, it doesn’t impact who I am or how I identify. But I do not live in a vacuum – I’m out in public interacting with people. In that context, I have to say that it does matter – it matters a lot. As a rule, society sees different as wrong, and wrong as bad.
All our problems stem from that, that one thing, so that is what needs to change. I won't buy in to society by thinking wrong is bad, but claiming not to be wrong to avoid being bad seems to me to be skipping the issue. I'm trying to face it head on by saying 'ok, I'm wrong, what's bad about me? Nothing! Er, apart from the hair.'


I hate the shoes – they don’t fit and they’re damn fugly too. I want strappy sandals with a kitten heel. But no matter where I look, they are never in my size. :(
I think it's fair to say that the best we can hope for, our generation, is a corn plaster, and no chance of going barefoot.


Take care :)

Marla S
08-30-2006, 02:28 PM
Donna,

excellent post !!!

One thing

All this because we don't feel like the boys and girls we were told we should be. No one ever asked us what we wanted to be.
The not being asked is a theoretical problem (when we should have been asked ?).
Not to be allowed to be gray (pink, if you like that better ;)) is the problem.

Society wise it does make completaly sense to categorize traits, behaviors, charcteristics, and the like, and (the most stupid of all) even colours and odors accordant to the most obvious the visible gender. It is so simple that everybody can understand it, see it, smell it at once. --> No confusion --> Happy business.

The probelm is that two categories for such a complex thing as the human brain, are just not enough. It is inevidable that there is some gray besides black and white or pink besides red and white, respectivaly.

This is in no way abnormal, but logical. Too bad that even the scientists don't get this.

Siobhan Marie
08-30-2006, 03:59 PM
Donna, you always give me something to think about and I always learn something new. Thank you for that and thank you for the link, will have a good look when I've got 5 minutes and hopefully will learn more.

huge :hugs: Anna x