Passing?

[DonnaG]

As I sit here reading posts from Forum members about how well they pass I have to wonder how many are true and how many are fairy tales.
I work for SEARS and see a lot of shoppers everyday. Usually in the course of a week I'll also spot at least one crossdresser. I'm sure some get by, many don't. It's not because I'm a long time CD either. "Hawking" CD's is a regular pass time. At least in our store. As soon as a CD is spotted the buzz goes around the floor. The regulars cruise by to check out the subject, giggle, and critique. Size is the first clue. No matter how many people on this Forum that say with proper deportment, appropiate clothes and make up you will go unnoticed you probably will not. If your 5ft 10 or less and built like woman you might but the regular guy body is going to give you up.
I will say that spotting CD's is done lightly and I rarely hear any really nasty comments. Unless the subject is Gina Lola Truckdriver in a micro mini, fishnets, and 4" spiked knee high boots.
When I was first able to dress full time I became more and more convinced that nobody noticed nor cared. The more I dressed the bolder I got. While I never had any bad experiences I took some really crazy chances. I'm glad I came to my senses before I headed for SEARS to check out the lingerie.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Donna

i'm 6'1++...but i'm nice weight and very "presentable" when i dress and go out...
altho to look my best it takes way too much makeup compared to a gg
i even wear heels..hehe...so what if i'm 6'4!!!!!!!

i am absolutely sure that i DONT PASS in the sense that everyone there thinks i'm a genetic woman...on the other hand, i havent been hassled"yet" and the salespeople have been friendly and helpful whenever i've dealt with them...so in my mind i'm "thinking" that i'm "passing" and that does it for me...

if i'm called out or openly made fun of, which has happened..that does tend to bother me but in the end i dont worry about too much...

[Karren H]

Well Abe said it best...you can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time...wonder if he was refefing to us?? Lol

But I know I don't pass 100% but then again I don't really care either. :D.

Hey!! Can you get
Your friends discounts on lingeire??

Girlfriend?

Hello????

Hehehe

Love Karren

[Marla S]

I don't pass as a woman, never will pass as a woman, and (therefore ?) have no intention to pass as a woman. My goal is to pass as me.

[Lisa Golightly]

No matter how many people on this Forum that say with proper deportment, appropiate clothes and make up you will go unnoticed you probably will not. If your 5ft 10 or less and built like woman you might but the regular guy body is going to give you up.

I think my ex girlfriend... a 6ft 4inch Dane would be rather offended by that... She used to make me feel teeny :)

[Sharon]

I guess that if I were ever to shop in Sears I won't wear my micro mini, fishnets, and 4" spiked knee high boots then.

Lingerie in Sears? I can just imagine. :heehee:

[CammyT]

Aloha,
When I finally go out, I'm hoping to at least leave them dazed and confused :heehee: !
BTW, our Sears has the Lingerie Dept. right next to the Automotive and Tool! "The softer side of Sears" promotion? Perhaps they can do specials like, buy a wrench set and get a free pair of lace boyshorts!

[Wenda]

Aloha,
BTW, our Sears has the Lingerie Dept. right next to the Automotive and Tool! "The softer side of Sears" promotion? Perhaps they can do specials like, buy a wrench set and get a free pair of lace boyshorts!

Now, THAT is a promotion I would go for! My GF got me into lace boyshorts, and I luv 'em. I will never pass, but that's not why I dress. I slightly envy the girls that can pass, but I work with what I have and admire them. :D

[Jennaie]

It would be impossible for you to get an accurate count on this for this reason: It's the ones who pass that you nor anyone else in your store is counting.

I don't think that anyone is going to pass all the time, they are going to be clocked at some point by someone. I have clocked several myself, especially at the dept stores, ladies shoes. Of course, I said nothing and turned my attention elsewhere allowing them to go home probably thinking they passed, which I'm sure someone has done with me as well. It's the ones I did not clock that is an unknown number.

I do think there is a way to find out if your passing for the most part though. When a child looks up at you and smiles, when you make eye contact with a teenage girl who is with her friends and she simply offers a simple smile and turns her eyes elsewhere, when your in a crowded store and you stop to look around and notice that no one has their head turned in your direction. These are the things that make me feel like I am passing, at least for the most part.

[SherriePall]

I don't pass unless the car ahead of me is going the speed limit or below.

[MsJanessa]

Piece of advice????---worry less about passing and just be more comfortable with yourself----you'll find that once you can do that you won't care if you pass or not---the irony is once you reach that level of relaxation you will be more likly to pass---but by then it won't matter

[Diane Paris]

DonnaG: I would like to send you a private message but I can't until you post at least 10 times. Once you do that, people like me can privately email you to discuss some of the friendship issues you have raised in your first three postings.

See the following which was posted by the CD.com Administrators:

"As from today (August 17th 2006), ALL members who have less than 10 posts, will NOT be able to use the PM system, view profiles or post in the Trans-Market. Once you have reached 10 posts, you will automatically be moved on to our registered member list. If you have any other problems, you can use the forum feedback form and one of the staff will reply within 24 hours."

[ColleenCD]

If the entire world were to get drunk at the same time, Colleen might have a chance of passing, provided the lights were out in Karren's Mine at midnight.:D

Colleen

[Jenna1561]

I'm 5'10" and weigh about 270lbs and on my good days I can pass about 80-90% of the time, provided I keep my mouth closed and I'm only considering people I don't interact with.

I dress appropriately and people not expecting to see a crossdresser, see what they expect - a well dressed overweight woman who apparently cares about her appearance.

I agree with the children/teen girl tests. If I can walk past a group of teens in the mall and they don't give me a 2nd glance, then I consider it a success.


Jenna

[DonnaT]

I know that I don't pass either, nor do I care.

[Dana Carlton]

Critiqueing and hawking cd's is a regular pasttime at Sears? No wonder I have to wait in long lines, have numerous price checks, and waste 15 minutes just trying to purchase one item. I now know that the cashier is more worried about looking for crossdressers than actually servicing the customer. Sorry Donna, but I am offended by your remarks. It is not the intent of many of us to pass as females. We are not going to the dept stores looking to get ratings. We are comfortable with our lifestyles and go about our daily lives. Can't say I like being a "blue-light" special when I walk in to K-mart, ummm Sears.

[Deidra Cowen]

I am not passable esp considering I am still quite big for a girl. 5'10" 183 pounds. Plus have a bad voice. But!!! ...I can blend in pretty good, especially if I do not talk. Been shopping many places and I did not catch anyone looking at me...have had a GG with me a few times that confirmed that. But then again I do get spotted every once in a while. Lets say I go to three stores. At one someone will notice me with an obvious look of surprise or a leer on their face! Thats not counting the cash register when I talk!

I honestly would like to be passable, I will not lie about it. But regardless I am comfortable with the fact that I am not and will be spotted from time to time. I do try to project a classy image when out so that might help.

By the way don't kid yourself...there are Tgirls that are passable. In our gang that goes out in Atlanta I can think of three that have it down flat! You would not spot them at your sears. Small thin bodies, not too tall, fem voice and pretty femme faces. :tongueout

[tekla west]

The ones who really pass you would never spot, by defination. I go to Sears for tools and I don't buy screwdrivers from VS.

[ranma 1/2]

I dress because it feels good. not to pass.

[Sophie Haworth]

I have to admit, passing is the be all and end all for me, its the test, can I?

This has always been the case since my teens, I wonder if it is because I do not dress regularly, but when I do It is full throttle.

The last two times have have been to the petrol station and into the shop and interacted with the attendant, he called me "love" when asking for the money, wow!

I have a video of that visit.

I will post that link shortly when I find it.

and the last time, I dressed up in my smart office out fit, skirt, blouse and met the postman who I normally speak to as male, and he just said Hello and give me my post and did not bat an eylid.

I am 5`8 " take a UK size 6 shoe, 29" waist and 31" leg and 36c bra.

Do I pass? I hope so, my last 4 outings have been great, (stories and pics posted elsewhere on the forum) but I do have features that do not.

Will I pass in every situation? No.

Arms, biggish hands, but tapered nails help,my legs from behind, just awful.

We are all CDs, we have that in common, but we are all so very different, and for me the effort, and it is a BIG effort in trying to pass is what it is all about.

Sophie.

[Sophie Haworth]

Video link as promised.

http://www.zippyvideos.com/5895305591895436/sophies_test/*sophie30

S.

[FROCKYHORROR]

that was cool...definetly passable, got the walk right down too..bravo

[Tina Dixon]

At 6 feet 3 and 250 pounds or 6'6" in heels I'm not going to pass, but if they start to laugh I may just need to lay the smack down on them:devil:

[Lil Miss Bekkah]

I can pass pretty well when I try...especially from behind. Somehow I managed to get the swishy walk down automatically. I fooled several people who knew me for short periods of time, I just need to work a bit more on my makeup and find a better way to have breasts than stuffed socks

[Peg]

Who cares , i dress to relax and feel comfortable with myself , passing is a bonus. sears lingere , hope it's not craftsman if it is and it breaks do they replace it. Peg

[Jesse69]

I would like to test if I pass by going to a shopping mall in drag, but I have too many clothes and now I'm trying not to buy any more stuff! I have more womens clothes than mens, and probably 60 skirt suits.

So one day I might just go out for fun.

[Rachel Morley]

This whole passing thing is very subjective. If a person goes out en femme in a public place, in broad daylight, and doesn't have anyone of any age (not even one person) look at them twice or even give them the slightest indication that "they know" does this mean that they've passed?...I think not! I say this going on my definition of passing as: "that they think I'm a GG".

I am totally convinced that people "are aware" of me and this is why I get a little bit nervous sometimes because I don't like being the subject of attention (in my mind at least). I'm just thankful that I must be considered a TS or whatever it is they think about me that makes them think I should be taken seriously rather than an object of ridicule or whatever. I know I don't truly pass.

[Bobbie14]

I'm glad I came to my senses before I headed for SEARS to check out the lingerie.

When I first started buying things, Sears was the most comfortable place for me to shop -- plus that's where my Mom bought her panties that were such a turn-on for me. After reading the comments here, I'm glad I've always shopped in drab!

Bobbie

[GypsyKaren]

Oh geez, I get read all the time, never a prob. I'm friendly and polite to everyone and I always smile, and in the vast majority of cases I get the same in return. A smile is so disarming, it let's people know that you're not a threat, so they relax. I'm sure I get my share of behind the back comments and laughter, well boo hoo, I could really care less. It's my life, not theirs, and I don't need the approval of strangers to live it.

So much is made of passing, it's a shame that many seek it like the Holy Grail. There are some that can pull it off each and every time, as a matter of fact I met a t-girl while shopping the other day, and I thought she was a GG for sure. She came up to me while I was looking at skirts and asked me what hormones I was on, and she told me that she was trans too. Sure fooled me! The funny thing about it was that she told me that she was terrified about getting read, she kept whispering so no one would notice her, and she told me how nervous she was when she went out, and let me tell you sisters, this girl passed like Namath going deep. I'm the total opposite, like I said I could give a rat's ass about it, I'm certainly not going to let it keep me from having a good time.

I think most of us who go out all the time will agree that we probably get read a lot more than we think. Just because the girl at McDonalds calls you maam when she hands you you're filet o' fish doesn't mean a thing, I think that people for the most part are as polite to you as you are to them. In today's world where everyone's in a hurry, and where rudeness reigns, I think people appreciate it when you extend common courtesy to them, it kinda catches them off guard and they ease up about you. Anyway, works for me!

Karen

[ArleneRaquel]

I would love to think that I always "pass", but I know that is a fallacy. 50 % would be great, but at this stage of my life I don't really care. I just have too be who I am, and I LOVE being Katrina Maureen, 24 - 7 !:love:

[trannie T]

Crossdressers get 'made' at that Sears store because the associates are looking for them. Most people are so wrapped up in their own lives they don't notice. When I go out I know that no way do I pass, but I rarely get more than a second glance from other shoppers.
Sears is a good place to purchase lingerie, you can have a teddy and a metric socket set in the same bag.

[ArleneRaquel]

Crossdressers get 'made' at that Sears store because the associates are looking for them. Most people are so wrapped up in their own lives they don't notice. When I go out I know that no way do I pass, but I rarely get more than a second glance from other shoppers.
Sears is a good place to purchase lingerie, you can have a teddy and a metric socket set in the same bag.

Sears is about the only place that I buy femme offline. 95 % of the time that1'm there I am enfemme. Never had a problem with " rude ' sales associates, not even secong glances.:love:

[Stephenie S]

Dear Donna,

I too was somewhat offended by your remarks.

Can't you find the time to actually wait on your customers without smirking at their appearance? I'm sure that the management of Sears would be upset if they knew that you cared more about making fun of your customers than actually serving them.

Stephenie

[DonnaG]

Dear Stephanie
Now we are even. Nowhere in my post did I say that we ignored customers because they were crossdressed. As a matter of fact CD's generally get better help because the help wants a closer look.
If you want better help at Sears or any store try the advice that is given here so often. Smile. Donna

[Kate Simmons]

Sounds interesting and like a challenge to me. Think I'll pay a visit to my local Sears store in the Mall as Eric (who is Ericka CDing as a guy), go to the hardware department and ask for some help to get some tools or something. That oughtta get 'em going. Good way to see just how "green" my money is and if they patronize me or not. I hate sterotyping and can be a real pain in the pitudie sometimes:heehee: Ericka Kay

[Lady Jayne]

I feel that some of the replies to this thread have been un necessarly harsh on Donna G implying that they find her comments offensive, this is some what unfair after all she is only bieng honest. If I worked in a department store and a colluge said there is a CD over there, would I try to get a better look, You bet I would, would I try to be discreet, yes of course, if I was serving her I would be friendly and curtiouse and try to make her feel comfortable. But lets be totaly honest here all she is saying is that just because people don't laugh and point at you it dosn't mean you are passing. For the most part if you try to blend in and are freindly and polite people will treat you with respect, but if you are clearly a man in a dress you know, hairy chest with 6 inch heels and outlandish make up you have to expect some people to giggle behind your back it is human nature I know that is sad but it is true. As far as passing is concerned I think that if people look twice and have to wonder if you are or you are not then that is about the best I could hope for.

[Siobhan Marie]

I know I don't pass, it doesn't bother me as I don't go out dressed.

:hugs: Anna x

[Stephenie S]

Dear Donna,

Yes, you are right, no where in your post did you say you didn't wait on your CD customers. What you did say is:

"Hawking" CD's is a regular pass time. At least in our store. As soon as a CD is spotted the buzz goes around the floor. The regulars cruise by to check out the subject, giggle, and critique.

This is what I found offensive, and I still do.

"check out", "giggle", and "crititque" your customers. Well done girl! You haven't changed my mind.

Steph

[gennee]

For the most part I have passed. I have been read numerous times and some never recognized me. A gentlleman even 'Ma'amed me last evening when I gave him some change. It's a mixed bag but that comes with the territory. Passing is not that important to me but I try to look my best. The big thrill for me is just being out there.

Gennee


:gorgeous:

[julie w]

I was out with my gf yesterday in drab she always seems very observant
of other people ,she even said I saw that women checking you out, I didnt
I asked are all women like you she said yes ,if you think a crossdressers could
walk down this street without being spotted you must be dreaming but you
would not know you have been spotted , Its sad but I think she is right
But as others have said if you are ok with that you have it made

[tifftg]

I dress to express who I am and how I feel the most comfortable. While I dress appropriate to the situation and wear my make up subtle during the day I know that under close inspection people will know I am not a gg. It is not about fooling people, it is expressing my femme side.

Tiffany

[Melissa A.]

I'm kinda on that borderline, size wise, a little under 5'9", about 165, not very broad shoulders, smallish feet, and a size 12. I do not have the confidence (yet) to go to places like malls where I may have to speak or otherwise interact with people, only because I would find any kind of public ridicule or obvious attention kinda embarrassing, I think. I would like to get over that, but I have no illusions about fooling everyone all the time. I go for drives durring the day all the time, and sometimes get out of the car and walk, if it "feels" right, and can say I have fooled lotsa people, but I don't really push the envelope, either. I can remember two times when I know I was read walking around at night, but the people were kind enough to leave me alone. Passing is important in all the situations I have mentioned, if only to avoid ridicule or getting my butt kicked, especially at night(stay away from where the drunks lurk!!). HOWEVER, the one time I went to a bar with a girl I used to know, passing became irrelevent. As long as people addressed me as Melissa and were nice to me, I didn't care at all about passing. Funny that I can't seem to get over that fear with strangers that I probably won't ever see again. Maybe sometime soon.

Hugs,

Melissa:happy:

[Jenna1561]

This whole passing thing is very subjective. If a person goes out en femme in a public place, in broad daylight, and doesn't have anyone of any age (not even one person) look at them twice or even give them the slightest indication that "they know" does this mean that they've passed?...I think not! I say this going on my definition of passing as: "that they think I'm a GG".

I am totally convinced that people "are aware" of me and this is why I get a little bit nervous sometimes because I don't like being the subject of attention (in my mind at least). I'm just thankful that I must be considered a TS or whatever it is they think about me that makes them think I should be taken seriously rather than an object of ridicule or whatever. I know I don't truly pass.


I totally agree with Angel. Perhaps I think I'm passing when really people are just treating me with the respect everyone is due. I present in an appropriate manner and try to blend in. As long as I interact with people and they treat me respectfully, then I consider my presentation a success.

I've only ever had problems with an SA once, at a Best Buy. He didn't say anything, but when I presented my driver's license to return an item, he went wide eyed, chuckled, and smirked. I ignored him as best I could and continued my transaction, but I was embarrassed, even though I know that I should not feel so. Afterall it was his problem not mine. Most of the time, I surprise the cashiers when I talk, just can't get that femme voice to work - needs more practice and I don't often get the opportunity, - quite a few double takes but mostly very courteous and professional.


Jenna

[Denise_Z]

Jenna, what were you returning that you had to show your drivers license? I would think the sales receipt would be sufficient.

[Janailene]

Passing is more like not being noticed as a man. If you can blend in you have done it.

[audrey-1960]

Even though not very tall or heavy don't think I could ever look half as good as any of you on this forum. Im just so envious all the time.

[Jodi]

Jenna, what were you returning that you had to show your drivers license? I would think the sales receipt would be sufficient.

Most stores now require photo ID for returns where there is a cash refund. There are too many scams out there. At New York & Co, we had to get the complete info--Name, address, phone # for anyone returning an item. We had to ask for the photo ID to ascertain that the info on the return sheet was accurate.

Jodi

[danielle swenson]

Tina D, got to hand it to you great attitude!

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Crossdressers get 'made' at that Sears store because the associates are looking for them.

Bottom line, most people are too preoccupied with other stuff to notice.

Most people who do notice don't care.

Personally, I've found what works well when someone is staring it to look them in the eye and give them the "I know that you're staring at me" smile. Usually, they realize they're being rude and will stop.

BTW, I've found it to be a useful bit of mental jujitsu to reframe the issue this way: If they treat me with the same respect anyone is due (regardless of whether they realize I'm a guy in a dress or not), then they've passed. Passed the test of being a decent human being.

[Bev06 GG]

Hi Donna,
Good informative post and I have to say that I agree with what youve had to say. Ive only met a handful of guys who I'd say, provided they kept their mouths shut, would pass whilst out shopping.
Its not just down to how your face looks, deportment, size, body language, the list is endless, all play a major role in the whole image.
That said, I doubt my own partner would pass as a woman, but he does look pretty gorgeous, and just so long as he enjoys what he does, who the hell cares.
I do think there are CDs out there who are slightly deluded and think because wht they can see looks passable that the whole package is OK. And whilst I dont mean to sound like Im being unkind, they are the ones who just might come down to earth with a big bang one day. Facially they do look pretty damned gorgeous, theyve probably got really good legs, bum, hair, teeth, but there is usually something that will give em away.
I also think that honesty is the kindest policy. I have quite a number of CD friends now and I love em all. There have been times tho when weve been out at a party and some GG has told them that they have had to look twice to see if they are CD or GG. when really its painfully obvious what they are. I know that these people are only trying to be kind, but I think its wrong and can lead to a CD taking unneccessary chances. Dont get me wrong Im not saying you kill them with cruelness, but there are ways of complimenting someone without being misleading.
Take care
BEVxxxxx

[Kimberly]

I just need to work a bit more on my makeup and find a better way to have breasts than stuffed socks
What are you talking about?? Stuffed socks rule!!! :tongueout

[DAVIDA]

I have never gone out in publicfor one reason, The only thing I can pass is the biscuits.:lol2:

[Sky]

"Hawking" CD's is a regular pass time. At least in our store. As soon as a CD is spotted the buzz goes around the floor. The regulars cruise by to check out the subject, giggle, and critique.

I'm amazed some of us found this offensive. It happens in every store. Unless you are a) perfectly passable (tall order, more on this later) or b) completely unaware of the world around you, you have to notice people making comments about cd's, sometimes laughing openly. The thing is, why getting mad at Donna who simply told it the way it is? Isn't that killing the messenger?

Anyway, there are plenty of solutions to cope with unfavourable comments. First, simply ignore them. Work on your self esteem. If you are happy with who you are and the way you look, what do you care about what others think of you?

But if you are the kind who needs approval, work on your overall image, not just on makeup and falsies. I read too many posts on how to get the perfect cleavage and too few on how to gesture like a lady. Like Bev said here, you will be read right away if you walk like a guy, long before they get to see your face.

[EricaCD]

Interesting thread - both for the initial thesis and the reactions it has provoked. I always enjoy reading these discussions because they give me new perspectives on a set of questions near the top of my CD consciousness: what does it mean to "pass" and why do we care?

I suppose most CDs consider "passing" to mean generally being mistaken for a genetic female. If that's the case, then most of us - present company emphatically included - do not "pass". A very few CDs with small bodies, feminine shaping, androgynous features, slight voices and the good sense not to screw it all up with inappropriate makeup or attire just might "pass" in this sense. I don't find this an especially satisfying definition of passing, as it relies too much on a limited set of genetic flukes and little else. Moreover, as it represents a flatly unattainable condition for me, it would be useless as any sort of goal...

Many of us (present company included) are able to pass occasionally or in limited circumstances. Some of us seek out opportunities to improve the "batting average" - hence the popularity of evening activities! Nothing wrong with any of that - I have very much enjoyed the few instances where I appear not to have been clocked. Still and all, an occasional success probably does not constitute "passing": such a definition would be overinclusive and leave out only a few whose physique, facial features or other general characteristics utterly rule out the possibility of ever being mistaken as female.

With sincerest thanks for the insights of a number of people here, I have come to a different notion of passing. I view "passing" as meaning "communicating clearly to the world your presented (as opposed to genetic) gender, and enabling--not forcing--the world to willingly interact with you as such".

One can reasonably argue that I have just dumbed down the definition of passing; one with a sharper tongue could say I have done do specifically to allow myself to claim a measure of passability. Both are fair criticisms. At the same time, the definition I propose is reasonably limited: it excludes the "guy in a dress" as well as even an attractive CD who does not comport herself in an even slightly feminine manner. This definition also has the virtue of being aspirational: the better we are at presenting our chosen gender - whether by demeanor, dress, phyisque, voice, mannerisns, etc. - the more likely it is that people will receive us and willingly, even happily, interact with us as females.

Passing: using presentation, mannerism and character as a means to give the world around us the perceptional cues and tags so as to relate to us as females. With that as an opening volley, I open the floor to debate. Those of you who think that folly of this magnitude merits a private intellectual diatribe can feel free to pm me.

Best,
Erica

[Sarah Rabbit]

Critiqueing and hawking cd's is a regular pasttime at Sears? No wonder I have to wait in long lines, have numerous price checks, and waste 15 minutes just trying to purchase one item. Can't say I like being a "blue-light" special when I walk in to K-mart, ummm Sears.Couldn't agree more!!:mad: I don't go out en-femme, but if I was to, I would not appreciate being the subject of 'Lunch Room' ratings. Perhaps the sales assistants at Sears would do better to enhance there assistance skills, rather than act like the 'tools' they are supposed to be selling in the automotive section.

Sarah R. :bunny:

[LadyHeather]

I love that advice , that is the best advice that I have heard in a long time ! You should put that on a plaque or something , Really that is great words of wisdom !

[LadyHeather]

Piece of advice????---worry less about passing and just be more comfortable with yourself----you'll find that once you can do that you won't care if you pass or not---the irony is once you reach that level of relaxation you will be more likly to pass---but by then it won't matter


I love that advice , that is the best advice that I have heard in a long time ! You should put that on a plaque or something , Really that is great words of wisdom !

[Stephenie S]

OK girls, I am going to weigh back in on this because I think I am being misunderstood. I continued to think about this issue because I found it continued to bother me a great deal and I wanted to figure out just why it did.

I think it was pretty much just me who was offended and I a not sure everyone understands why I was offended by Donna's remarks.

I understand perfectly well that most of us will not "pass" as genetic women all the time, or even some of the time, when out shopping. Or out where ever. I am not offended by the fact that people will "read" us and know that we are not GGs. That's not what bothered me at all. That's going to happen continually.

What did offend me was the act of laughing at us. I think the quote was "giggle". Please imagine for a minute that we are not talking about CDing here and substitute "blacks" or "Jews" or "Italians" or any other minority you can think of.

Would we want to "check out, giggle and critique" any other minority just because they happened to be shopping in our store? NO! Of course not. Even though there are areas where backs are not common, would we expect to have employees say, "hey, come quick, there's a black person in the tool section."? We know better than that by now. We know it's wrong and we would not expect that kind of behavior from employees of a major chain store.

That is what offended me. The act of singleing out a particular minority for ridicule just because they are shopping in our store is offensive behavior.

Donna, I am sure you did not think of this in this way. I KNOW you would not pick out a black person to giggle at. I felt offended NOT because you were able to spot a crossdresser, but because you would participate in the kind of behavior which, for ANY other minority, you would KNOW was impolite and unprofessional.

We may not be able to "pass", but we should be able to expect respectful behavior from employees of national companies such as Sears.

I hope this helps to clarify my remarks. Of course we will be "read", of course we will be laughed at, but we do not deserve to be laughed at by employees of a major chain while spending money in one of their stores. This is unprofessional and that's what I found offensive.

Stephenie

[Dana Carlton]

I was one who was offended by Donna's remarks, and stated so in a previous post. I firmly agree with Stephanie S. on what she has said. My exact thoughts. Think the phrases "Hawking cd's" and "regular pasttime" was what got to me. As a crossdresser, I have to accept that I might be singled out, and possibly noticed. I know this happens. And I know that I am probably the subject of numerous conversations. Whether at the mall, grocery store, park or wherever. Like any other person, I don't like to be laughed at or ridiculed. For any reason, not just because I crossdress.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

we live in the "real" world...in our minds eye, we dress up and try to emulate or even "be" women of all shapes and sizes...

this dressing up is part of a behavior we engage in that includes alot of fantasy...i dont know about you but when i shop for clothes online for example, i see myself in those clothes even tho i look nothing like the models..its a fantasy...i dress up and thats a reality, but the fantasy part is that i'm a woman and i can go out in the "real" world and be that woman...thats a fantasy (the "being a woman" part)

i'm sorry if you're offended, buts thats life..the world doesnt care that we like to dress up...certain people dont care, some do, some like to make fun, some dont thats the way it is..when a 500 lb woman shops...she is "hawked" too....if you are different you are "hawked"...i say...you just have to live with it,....its not going to change and having a sense of humor about it is key..so i say dont worry about it...its all good..do what you want and let others deal with their issues..

as far as passing...erica could not have said it better...i have said that in general, i dont "pass" especially if you define it as everyone i see knows i'm a gg...

but as i go out, i present as woman,(a tg woman)

but in my mind (IN MY MIND IS THE ONLY PLACE THAT MATTERS!!!!!!!!!!) i'm passing....

every once in a while, the spell is broken by a mean or cruel person, or maybe a surprised look on some lady's face(of course that means i was passing until she realized)...but thats life...thats just the way it is and nothing will change that and i keep trying to settle on the thought that its an internal thing(IN MY MIND I"M PASSING!!! THATS IT!!)

i'm trying to get my nerves up for an outing , dinner, dancing, etc in atlantic city..just go , get dressed and go out...will i do it?? i hope so, and i know i wont "pass" but i keep thinking this is what i want to do , so do it and the rest of the world can do its thing too...

so anyway, this is a terrific thread...just my 2 cents

[Josie]

I probably never will try to pass in public. I would only want to go where it wouldn't matter if I fooled anyone or not. I'm curious about the reaction at Sears to a cd in drab buying clothes that are obviously for him, I mean her.

[Daphne Renee]

I could probably pass if I really put the time , money and effort into it.. I am not very tall and dont weigh that much either.. 5'6" my weight flutuates but right now at about 110.. I dont normally go out in public dressesd .. well maybe on halloween but thats probably about it.

[veronicaM]

don't know if any way for me to pass, but sure would be fun if i Could!
at least i can dream.......

[Stephenie S]

"i'm sorry if you're offended, buts thats life..the world doesnt care that we like to dress up...certain people dont care, some do, some like to make fun, some dont thats the way it is..when a 500 lb woman shops...she is "hawked" too....if you are different you are "hawked"...i say...you just have to live with it,....its not going to change and having a sense of humor about it is key..so i say dont worry about it...its all good..do what you want and let others deal with their issues.."


Dear Michele,

No, I don't agree. That 500 lb woman should expect to be treated with the same RESPECT as any other shopper. Respect means not getting "Hawked". She does not deserve to be laughed at. Saying "you just have to live with it" is wrong.

I know this is a fact of life, but there are areas where we should expect more professional behavior. Sears is one of them. Shall we all "Hawk" the handicapped? Is that a "fact of life"? Should the GI returning from Iraq with only one leg be "hawked" every time he goes shopping? Should he "just have to get used to it"? Of course not. We know better than that. He deserves our respect. Is he different? Will he get noticed? Yes, of course. Does he deserve for everyone to come and look? Critique him? "Oh look how he's walking with crutches". Giggle at him? "Oh, look, maybe he will fall down." No he doesn't deserve any of this.

Neither does the 500 lb woman. And, may I say, niether do we.

We should know better than to "Hawk" the 500lb woman. And we should know better than to "Hawk" the CD shopping in OUR section of Sears. This has NOTHING to do with our ability to "pass" or our lack thereof. It's has to do with how we are treated after that. Yes we will be noticed. But YES we deserve the same respect from store emplyees as any other group. If we don't complain about discrimination, how can we change it?

OK, this is all I'm gonna say about this. It did bother me. I have tried to explain why it bothered me. I think I have said enough.

Steph

[Sky]

Passing: using presentation, mannerism and character as a means to give the world around us the perceptional cues and tags so as to relate to us as females. With that as an opening volley, I open the floor to debate. Those of you who think that folly of this magnitude merits a private intellectual diatribe can feel free to pm me.

Best,
Erica

Erica, it is a pleasure to debate with you. But rather than pm-ing, let's keep it open for other girls to share.

While I often think of passing as a much more restrictive concept (something like the guy talking to you commenting to another "I looked real close and I'm sure she was a gal"), this definition is arbitrary and subjective (as any other) and therefore does not have to work for you or anybody else. Needless to mention, I don't pass according to my own standards -never did, not even on my best days or nights. However, I admit being worried about the issue, and I have tried as hard as I could to achieve it, even knowing it was out of reach from the start. Knowing Mother Nature has provided us with a set of very gender-specific features -some very useful when it comes to the preservation of the species, but I don't mean only THAT- I have worked on my presentation as hard as I could to be as feminine as I could. With the exception of my voice -as I heard enough comments about how difficult is to switch your learned female voice off, and I still wanted to live as a guy most of the time.

But no matter how well I can walk (or not), I am also concerned about my physical appearance, the inherent difficulty to overcome the fact of being a guy and the painfully inevitable impact of time, as I said in some other posts. I know this may sound shallow, but I long to be an attractive woman, not simply any woman. Sorry.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

thats fine stephanie...no worries...

please dont think 'm saying you should make fun of people...far from it...its mean and petty to do so...

i'm saying people do it and there is nothing we can do about it..and because we are different..and we challenge people a bit...we end up in the line of fire...i think the poster who pointed out that its done just stated a fact

so i'm focused on what makes me happy and not what others are doing..

that being said...its much more fun when people are nice and friendly and accepting vs otherwise

[Sophie Haworth]

I dress to pass, and yet my outings are usually months apart. In my mind passing is the only reason to dress, not just to wear the clothes, but to make the biggest effort possible to look female.
If it were just the wearing of clothes wether inside or out then my desires would be simply satisfied. Being read is an awful feeling, not because I am embarrased, and I am not when I am read, but because I do not look like the mirror tells me.

I love mirrors, but boy can they lie.

The word "passing" seems to be getting defined in this thread, now passing for me is being mistaken for a woman, not people just accepting a man dressed up as a woman. From the earliest of my outings when I was in my early teens, about 13, I was out walking the streets then and being read, and no wonder wearing what I was, I still remember walking past two girls and one asking the other "is that a boy or a girl, and the other saying its a girl" that was over 35 years ago and it is vivid in my mind.

I have been read many times since and each time it has hurt. Over the last 2 years though I have worked very hard on Sophie, and she has managed to go out on a few ocasions now and not been (knowingly) read and I cannot express how fantastic that feels, and comments by forum members have helped give me confidence to go out more.

I appreciate that some kind comments are made obout my looks with good intentions, but as bev GG said truth can be better and in my case that would be true as you can come down with a big bang if you think you look great, and you go out to places and in actual fact you look... well you know what I mean.

Ive been read from people walking behind me, wow how bad is that!
I have been read just sat in my car from 200 yards away through tinted windows and all they could see would be my head, can it get any worse, yet when I left home I thought I looked great.

So what has changed over the last couple of years, the help of video, videoing myslef and when I saw it I knew why I was being read so easily. Mirrors are not enough.

Well my parting shot in this post is this, if it is so important for me to pass, why do I not have surgery, implants hair removal and other things that would help?
I am a man, and enjoy that also and spend most of my time as a man, but every now and then when Sophie comes I am a woman and enjoy every moment of being one, and when I go out it is not to do shopping, thats the excuse, it is for people to see me the woman Sophie.

Thanks for reading.

Sophie.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

sophie more power too you...i agree i want to totally pass

the thing is i simply cant....ever...never ever...

so i do the next best thing...definitions dont mean anything except in your own head anyway

when the salesperson says "your welcome maam" when i say thank you...thats passing...what she knows or doesnt know is not meaningful to me and i cant know it anyway unless she says "sir"...or winks or something like that...

a nice lady came up to me and complemented my outfit and called me dear...did i pass? of course ...did she "know"...how the heck should i know and why should i care

[Jodi]

Also, keep inmind that most of the people working a stores don't have a lot to occupy their minds. They will look for anything to think of something different and to comment to their co-workers. And soe of these comments to co-workers by young girls are giggles. Why to teenage girls giggle? Because they can.

Jodi

[USNguyNskirt]

we have three topics on passing and I really dont see a need to repost what I already said. I'd link you to the other topic but I dont know how. But if you are really interested in the topic and havent checked out the other subject or if someone knows how to link to it feel free. I think the mods would get mad if i posted the exact same thing 3 times :-\
But it is good information :thumbsup:

[Rachel Morley]

I view "passing" as meaning "communicating clearly to the world your presented (as opposed to genetic) gender, and enabling--not forcing--the world to willingly interact with you as such".
Wow! what a fantastic definition :happy: Love it!

[Mitzi]

What did offend me was the act of laughing at us. I think the quote was "giggle". Please imagine for a minute that we are not talking about CDing here and substitute "blacks" or "Jews" or "Italians" or any other minority you can think of.

Stephenie, there's a fundamental difference here...the groups you refer to are not of their ethnicity by choice. We CD's choose to "present" ourselves differently from the norm. So, like it or not, we are fair game.

Mitzi

[surc777]

Passing is, I think, important to most of us. I am not offended that salespeople would laugh and giggle if I am read. What do I expect? Men in drag from the time of Shakespeare to Milton Burle to present have been "burlesque" humor. So be it.

As someone who is half Jewish, I understand but don't agree with the correlation between racism and "CDphobia" if I may be allowed the term. Racism is based on hatred of something that can't be helped. No matter how much you may feel the need to dress, if you were locked in prison with no access to the clothing, you would not die for lack of it. But to seperate a skin color or race from someone can't even be done by death.

As for myself, I am indeed 6' 2", but let me give some others hope: I am still almost never noticably read. You will see I said "noticably". Perhaps in this case my size is an asset, as most people will not cross a 6' 2" man who has guts enough to wear a dress and heels in public. For many of you who say that you "could never pass", looking at your avatars belies this, most of you look pretty passable to me. Also keep in mind that my marvelous, beautiful, sweet, adorable girlfriend is 6' and over 260 lbs. No one questions her femininity, so quit using size as an excuse. Have you ever considered that you are benig stared at simply because they have rarely seen a woman so tall?

In closing, I think that one fundamental thing applies, regardless of what you are wearing: class shows. Whether you choose to dress like a hooker, or wear long matronly dresses, or something in between, bear yourself with self-knowledge and self-worth, even when in drab, and note the difference in the way people treat you. Respecting others is only the second step to receiving respect. The first step is respecting yourself. That is the definition of class.

[Stephenie S]

Stephenie, there's a fundamental difference here...the groups you refer to are not of their ethnicity by choice. We CD's choose to "present" ourselves differently from the norm. So, like it or not, we are fair game.

Mitzi

Oh dear Mitzi,

No, no, no. I do not choose to be GID. I have been this way for as long as I can remember. This is not my choice any more than a homosexual chooses to be gay. Just try and stop CDing dear, see how much choice you have.

Steph

[Wendi]

Sometimes I look at a woman and wonder if she's pregnant-sometimes I look at a woman and wonder if she's married-sometimes I look at a guy and wonder if he's a girl-sometimes I look at a girl and wonder if she's a guy. I just wonder and then I move on because it's none of my business and they're not bothering me anyway. We are now in the year 2006 and I think it's about time the general public starts to mature and accept us for who we are. We are wonderful people who just want to live our lives our way. Just as they want to live their lives there way without anyone passing judgement on them.

[Mitzi]

Oh dear Mitzi,

No, no, no. I do not choose to be GID. I have been this way for as long as I can remember. This is not my choice any more than a homosexual chooses to be gay. Just try and stop CDing dear, see how much choice you have.

Steph
You're quite right, being CD was not my choice...in fact, if there were a magic pill that could "cure" me, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

But we're discussing going out into the public domain here, that certainly is a choice. When we make that choice, we have to accept that we risk embarrassment, or worse.

Mitzi