Taming of the Shrew

[Calliope]

"Let all the others fight and fuss
Whatever happens, we've got us."
~ Me And My Shadow.

Disclaimer: Just a mulling over here. All CDs with happy partnerships and supportive SOs might want to skip the following. Not looking for heat, just light. Thinking out loud. Very loud. Hey - I am woman, hear me roar!

1. It strikes me bitterly ironic so many CDs - presenting as and / or wishing to be women - find such grief in their lives stemming from ... their wives.

2. Certainly, no CD tormented by the disapproval and / or rejection of their wife (the most important woman in their world) wants to become that particular woman.

3. Or is that so?

4. I've been reading Richard Novick's (excellent CD memoir) Alice In Genderland and noticed his will-to-dress intensified as his marriage deteriorated. That sure struck a chord since it reflects my own situation.

5. And I ask: I am attempting to replace my wife? (She certainly has asked that once or twice.)

6. If so, then she is recreated in a highly idealized form. Like a kinky Venus rising from an ocean of unfathomable fantasies, many a CD is born in garters, fishnet, pushup bras and crimson lipstick. Hotties eager to quench any desire - any male desire.

7. Is this creation, essentially a centerfold, anything a woman would claim as the essence of femininity? (Rarely are CDs preoccupied with childbirth.)

8. (Perhaps the 'golden age' of the CD was the 1950's, an era when the appearance of the CD and the GG were most closely aligned. When does woman's lib - remember the 70's? - ever catch up with the general CD community? [Put in pop terms, we cannot invoke Joni Mitchell without first jettisoning Julie London.] )

9. Related. Following Novick's memoir - crossindexed with my own experience - it is also common for the CD to emerge during periods when women are not available to the CD. This can be construed as a more pronounced phase, perhaps the outcome, of the distressed marriage.

10. Is the woman arising from within the CD the perfect mate? Certainly this 'mate' seems to understand and acquiesce to the needs of the CD better than most partners, past or present.

[Karren H]

Hmmmmmm. That's deep...too deep for me!! I just like to wear womens clothes, and makeup and hair....ohhh and shoes...hehehe. So call me shallow but I know what I like!!

Love Karren

[Kaitlyn Michele]

day tripper

u just described my situation to a T!!!

[Charleen]

Interesting yet heavy duty post there DT.Since I lost my wife, I have become more femme over time. I've always CDed from childhood on, and had a desire to be a woman on and off over the years, more on as of late, and here I thought that my blossoming into the very femme person I am today was due to the freedom I have living alone. Now, you come up with this for me to mull over. Back to the drawing board! Love and xxxx, Lily

[Janelle Young]

Wow, that is indeed deep. You do bring up some interesting thoughts. Perhaps too many to respond to but I will to point #8. The Fifties, what a great time, women in dresses and skirts, got to love that. They say in time old fashion comes back in style, I hope the style of the Fifties comes back and I am around to see it.

[vbcdgrl]

Very interesting observations, and relevant to my situation, too. By the way, I know Alice (Richard) slightly. I see her quite often at a club in the LA area. One of these days, I'll have to read her book.

Vikki

[ElleCD]

Day tripper

I think there are as many motivations as there are CDs. I do take the point that we often try to create an idealised version of a woman. We never had to be the real thing. But I don't think this is necesarilly about creating the ideal mate. That Cding increases at times of relationship stress or when involvement with the opposite sex is not available is not surprising. Cding is both a refuge and a product of sexuality and sexual desire. It may sound like I am disagreing but I think the premises you put forward are as relevant to some as they are not too others. This was a really thought provoking post and i enjoyed reading and thinking about it. Thanks.

[Marla S]

Cding is both a refuge and a product of sexuality and sexual desire. Can't agree here. CDing has been highly sexual to me only while puberty. These times almost everything was sexual. Hasn't been sexual before and isn't now.

[Sky]

It's a rather long post so the answer will be just as long, but, hey, what's the alternative? Work? No way...


1. It strikes me bitterly ironic so many CDs - presenting as and / or wishing to be women - find such grief in their lives stemming from ... their wives.

Not clear what your point is. We all find grief from people of both genders and that is no ground to reject one of them (or both) in its entirety. So yes, even if you find grief from your wife (not my case), why shouldn't you want to be a woman anyway?


2 (thru 5). Certainly, no CD tormented by the disapproval and / or rejection of their wife (the most important woman in their world) wants to become that particular woman.

There is no more uncertain word that "certainly". Some might want to replace their wives' "unwanted" behavior with a friendlier one, like yourself said later. But some might not. Some do not want to become / replace their wife at all. Why should we? Are our wives the only women in the world? Are they the only female model we know?


6. If so, then she is recreated in a highly idealized form. Like a kinky Venus rising from an ocean of unfathomable fantasies, many a CD is born in garters, fishnet, pushup bras and crimson lipstick. Hotties eager to quench any desire - any male desire.

Again, this comes from a false assumption (that our crossdressing is related to some sort of emulation of our wives). It does not have to be. The over-the-top-hottie look (which most of us tried at least once) is the plain expression of a sexual fantasy which sometimes becomes real, sometimes not. Yes, male desire. Many of us like guys. So what?


7. Is this creation, essentially a centerfold, anything a woman would claim as the essence of femininity? (Rarely are CDs preoccupied with childbirth.)

We are not women. We are men who love to dress as women. The few guys who go all the way (transgendered) do worry about forming a family from a female perspective.


10. Is the woman arising from within the CD the perfect mate? Certainly this 'mate' seems to understand and acquiesce to the needs of the CD better than most partners, past or present.

Strange phrasing to say the least. Do we dress to become our own (like in "we, the guys") perfect female mate? Honestly, it sounds quite absurd. As a woman, I have dated guys who do not match my own type in the least and yet I had a great time. Of course, I wore the clothes I like (as a guy or as a girl), so that part is granted. But I never thought my female persona would be the ideal soulmate for me (the guy). (she's too much of a party girl... :heehee:)

[Marla S]

Strange phrasing to say the least. Do we dress to become our own (like in "we, the guys") perfect female mate? Honestly, it sounds quite absurd.
I think DT's point is not such a strange thought. Quite obvious there is the most famous German CDer Charlotte von Mahlsdorf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_von_Mahlsdorf). Her memoirs are titeled "I Am My Own Wife", there is also a play with this title.
I don't think it is the intention of CDing to create ones own wife, rather this is one of the constructs you can be forced to due to lifelong rejections and nonunderstanding. (Better to be on your own than constantly fight yourself or the others.) Another possible construct of escape would be to live within the respective subculture.

[tekla west]

1. Gee, this seems like school somehow .... Well you don't have to look very far in these posts to find that out, thought I think they have a common thread, and that is they begin the relationship in a lie, had they met as who they were this problem would not exist I don't think. I know lots of CDs who have great relationships but they began that way.

2. No, I think that many want to be their mom or sister. Others want to be one of the Jr High / High School "popular girl" crowd (i.e. one of the girls that would not give them the time of day.) I think that those who are out and about have found a level where they can be themselves, or at least let their real avatar shine on through. But ...

3. ..... They might well be trying to 'replace' in some degree that hostile element in their life, substituting that "other women' for the real one.

4. I guess I should read this, but I did not find this true in my life, however I was so lost in my own world at that point I did not notice the deterioration, however I did pass the exams and finish the dissertation, and for people in that position it is not uncommon.

5. Comes very close to the classic textbook examples of Autogynephelia as espoused by Bailey, Lawrence, and Blanchard, et. all.

6. Most seem to begin dressing either as a little girl or a 16 year old streetwalker, so that may make some sense. Again, the public/private distinction here is a bright line marker, as most of the out people attempt to blend, to dress as someone of their age, income and status would dress.

7. Just cruise the pix and judge yourself. However, I do know several CDs who do have very EXTREME strong maternal instincts. Men who made much better mothers than their mates did, and did as well as any woman, its the nurture and patience deal.

8. I'm kind of into the late 60s / early 70s myself, but..... I do see the point, and its emphasized in both the kind of people who dress like my mom going to the Moose Lodge, the Queen Mum look, and those who would complain that "women don't dress fem enough." The preference for certain items would seem to support that thesis also.

9. See #5

10. (Am I done yet?) I think that in a super idealized manner completely devoid of any hint of reality that may often be so. Again, getting out changes that, though I'm not sure why, I think it has to do with having to relate to others instead of just the self.

[Christina Nicole]

1. It strikes me bitterly ironic so many CDs - presenting as and / or wishing to be women - find such grief in their lives stemming from ... their wives.

I see no irony here. It makes perfect sense. Most wives want men, not lesbian relationships.



2. Certainly, no CD tormented by the disapproval and / or rejection of their wife (the most important woman in their world) wants to become that particular woman.

3. Or is that so?

4. I've been reading Richard Novick's (excellent CD memoir) Alice In Genderland and noticed his will-to-dress intensified as his marriage deteriorated. That sure struck a chord since it reflects my own situation.

You assume a causality that may not exist or may exist differently. Healthy marriages require two involved partners. Not one scared and worried wife and one self-absorbed and selfish cross dresser.



5. And I ask: I am attempting to replace my wife? (She certainly has asked that once or twice.)

6. If so, then she is recreated in a highly idealized form. Like a kinky Venus rising from an ocean of unfathomable fantasies, many a CD is born in garters, fishnet, pushup bras and crimson lipstick. Hotties eager to quench any desire - any male desire.


Highly idealized? I'm surprised that the GGs in the forum haven't tied you up, flayed the flesh from your bones, and burned you at the stake. That may be some perverted male's idea of a woman, but real men want real women. Persons of complexity, depth, intelligence and feelings. Not sex robots.



7. Is this creation, essentially a centerfold, anything a woman would claim as the essence of femininity? (Rarely are CDs preoccupied with childbirth.)

To be as polite as possible, it's more the essence of a twisted adolescent's wet dream.



8. (Perhaps the 'golden age' of the CD was the 1950's, an era when the appearance of the CD and the GG were most closely aligned. When does woman's lib - remember the 70's? - ever catch up with the general CD community? [Put in pop terms, we cannot invoke Joni Mitchell without first jettisoning Julie London.] )


This does not follow from your previous statements. I'm too young to remember the 1950s, but I don't see women dressed as you described in photographs of that era.


9. Related. Following Novick's memoir - crossindexed with my own experience - it is also common for the CD to emerge during periods when women are not available to the CD. This can be construed as a more pronounced phase, perhaps the outcome, of the distressed marriage.

10. Is the woman arising from within the CD the perfect mate? Certainly this 'mate' seems to understand and acquiesce to the needs of the CD better than most partners, past or present.
No, but if you can't handle a real woman, the fake fantasy inside might be sufficient. I can't see how that would be satisfying, however.

Regards,
Christina Nicole

[Calliope]

I want to thank everyone who has read my little theory, mused upon it, disagreed with it and, especially, took the time to comment.

I have no 'rebuttal' to offer, nor a 'closing statement' of substance - that would be tacky. (Considering I was once a card-carrying member of the Communist Party - therefore a graduate-level debater - that shows there might be hope for me.)

I only suggest my theory might be added to all the others.




I think there are as many motivations as there are CDs.

The truest statement of this thread (I believe).



I think that in a super idealized manner completely devoid of any hint of reality that may often be so. Again, getting out changes that, though I'm not sure why, I think it has to do with having to relate to others instead of just the self.

I wholeheartly agree.


I'm surprised that the GGs in the forum haven't tied you up, flayed the flesh from your bones, and burned you at the stake.

Er, well, the night is young.

:bonk:

[tekla west]

Er, well, the night is young.


And hope does spring eternal

and #12, looking for the girls to back you up, for shame.

[Marla S]

Highly idealized? I'm surprised that the GGs in the forum haven't tied you up, flayed the flesh from your bones, and burned you at the stake. That may be some perverted male's idea of a woman, but real men want real women. Persons of complexity, depth, intelligence and feelings. Not sex robots.
Sorry, some don't get it.
The only ones that would have the right to burn DT on the stake would be part of TG folks, as DT's holding up the mirror to the TG folks (other call this cynicism).
That there is some truth in it you easily could see yourself in the, luckily now closed, lingerie gallery, or look at the actually running Halloween costume thread, or just type in "crossdresser" in google. Then you should know what DT means.

What is it with this submissivness and the anticipatory obedience? Is this a closet syndrom ?

[Christina Nicole]

I get it. But if I were a real woman, I would be insulted, very insulted, that the idealized woman is (to be very, very generous) a tramp.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Marla S]

I get it. But if I were a real woman, I would be insulted, very insulted, that the idealized woman is (to be very, very generous) a tramp.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole
Right, but you shouldn't blame DT for, but a lot of others. I. e. the Halloween thread would be a good place to speak up.
As I said DT's only holding up the mirror, but it's not uncommon that the bearer of the bad news is killed first.

[Ellaine]

1. It strikes me bitterly ironic so many CDs - presenting as and / or wishing to be women - find such grief in their lives stemming from ... their wives.

A1) Wives and Family! I've seen wives make amazing ajustments, once they see the rest of the Family can handle it. Often the Wives care more about what "the others" will think.

2. Certainly, no CD tormented by the disapproval and / or rejection of their wife (the most important woman in their world) wants to become that particular woman.

A2) Agreed

3. Or is that so?

A3) Yes. I reckon.

4. I've been reading Richard Novick's (excellent CD memoir) Alice In Genderland and noticed his will-to-dress intensified as his marriage deteriorated. That sure struck a chord since it reflects my own situation.

A4) Common and hardly mysterious.

5. And I ask: I am attempting to replace my wife? (She certainly has asked that once or twice.)

A5) Doubtful. It sounds like understandable ajustment of priorities. As the Marriage relationship wanes, other priorities get space.


6. If so, then she is recreated in a highly idealized form. Like a kinky Venus rising from an ocean of unfathomable fantasies, many a CD is born in garters, fishnet, pushup bras and crimson lipstick. Hotties eager to quench any desire - any male desire.

A6) No. New CD's find sensuality (in the fabrics), taboos (OMG!) and even if he's wearing his wifes' underwear, he's not likely to be getting aroused with his wife in mind. (She may be in the back of his mind, pointing an accusing finger!) lol

7. Is this creation, essentially a centerfold, anything a woman would claim as the essence of femininity? (Rarely are CDs preoccupied with childbirth.)

A7) Any creation, early on, is likely to be fairly haphazard, with the imagination working overtime. "Essence of femininity"?= Chanel No5!


8. (Perhaps the 'golden age' of the CD was the 1950's, an era when the appearance of the CD and the GG were most closely aligned. When does woman's lib - remember the 70's? - ever catch up with the general CD community? [Put in pop terms, we cannot invoke Joni Mitchell without first jettisoning Julie London.] )

A8) No. Every age and style has it's devotees. CD's in the 50's were likely to be locked up, beaten up and chased out of town. What golden age?

9. Related. Following Novick's memoir - crossindexed with my own experience - it is also common for the CD to emerge during periods when women are not available to the CD. This can be construed as a more pronounced phase, perhaps the outcome, of the distressed marriage.

A9) Perhaps just a case of...When the cat's away, the mice will play. Or The Devil makes work for idle hands" ;)

10. Is the woman arising from within the CD the perfect mate? Certainly this 'mate' seems to understand and acquiesce to the needs of the CD better than most partners, past or present.

A10) Perfect is an ideal that can change over time. You interchange "Partner" and "Mate"...A CD may create his perfect Partner, being inside the same head and all that. But perfect Mate, with sponge hips and nipples you can't bite? lol

I'm not sure if all this is "Deep" or just bogged down lol

I'm just p'd-off that this thread is not about Liz Taylor (in her heavenly prime,) and Richard Burton. "Taming of the Shrew" indeed! lol


;)

[tekla west]

"I would be insulted, very insulted, that the idealized woman is (to be very, very generous) a tramp."

What you have never seen a porno mag or movie? You do not notice that image constantly paraded in pop culture? Ever look at a Brittany Spears record cover? Check out the new Beyonce cover. Never caught the classic dichotomy of Mary and Eve, the Virgin and the Tramp (put mildly, the real world in classical Modern language studies is the W one)? Of course its not real, which is why TD used the term "idealized." While it may not be THE ideal, it is certainly ONE such ideal? Ask Hugh Heffner or Larry Flint, both became millionaires on that depiction.

NOW, given that, go look at the pix in the gallery and see how many are doing exactly that. Emulating that look. Good grief, read the posts that complain about how "women don't dress fem enough" or that they are all in jeans and T-shirts, and take a look around and you see what "real women" most often wear is nothing like that at all.

Real men don't want sex robots, but they do like girls who put out. Who want's the Ice Queen, the Fridge? How many people in here are complaining that they ain't getting near enough to suit them? Plenty.

Do you really think that guys lay in bed and fantasize about "persons of complexity, depth, intelligence and feelings"? Or are they thinking about Naughty Nancy the Nasty Nurse? I sure guys SAY that all the time, and on occasion mean it (minus the whole 'feelings' thing) but that's not what's on their mind, sex is. Hot sex, pure sex, deep sex, rough sex, but sex and more sex.

Hillary Clinton is a woman of "complexity, depth, intelligence and feelings" but I bet good old Brittany Spears, who is simple, shallow and dumb tents more pants if you get my drift.

Now I can combine them and get, say Madonna, who is very complex, and extremely smart and she sure has depth to spare, but when you are thinking of her are you going "Gee, I wonder what her take is on Hegel's taking the Dialect from the Kabbalah" a subject I'm very sure she COULD talk about, and I'm guessing that you are also not in rapture of her ability to write, produce, choreograph and star in her own shows, which she does.

Nah, your thinking of ..... hey, she could ride me like a pony. I bet.

P.S. She is not making over $200 million for this tour on its intellectual qualities.

And Liz, that was not about sex either, was it. Ask her - how many?? - husbands?

[mitz_chinagirl]

hi, im with karen on this, i love to dress it makes me happy, my wife doesn't know, i wouldn't ever hurt her, and im certainly not replacing her. dressing is fun its an escape a fantasy why worry about it.

love mitz

[Calliope]

I'm just p'd-off that this thread is not about Liz Taylor (in her heavenly prime,) and Richard Burton. "Taming of the Shrew" indeed! lol



It (truly) grieves me deeply to say ... this thread is much more about Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?


http://www.prettoklubben.com/pictures/movies/270.jpg

[Ellaine]

Thank you Tekla (damn, young Liz just does me in)
Now that's my idea of a tramp......

http://www2.propichosting.com/Images/450016356/1.jpg



Gone...Solid gone...swoon swoon

[Kimberly]

[B]4. I've been reading Richard Novick's (excellent CD memoir) Alice In Genderland and noticed his will-to-dress intensified as his marriage deteriorated. That sure struck a chord since it reflects my own situation.

5. And I ask: I am attempting to replace my wife? (She certainly has asked that once or twice.)
It is my belief, on a sexual and emotional level, that the women we present as, as CDers (maybe not TS), are attractive to ourselves because they are our creation. Our perspective dictates what our kind of woman would be like.

I'm not saying for a moment that you'd want to take yourself out on dates, but I think to start with you try to impress one person with your CDing - yourself. I am not exempt from this either! As you make a presentation of femininity, to your own desires - non-sexual - you begin to attract yourself, or you deem.

It's inevitable, really. We are doing something that women don't - we are creating another presentation, in some effect - another person. I think GGs, when making the best of their appearance, are doing just that; enhancing their best features/changing their worst. We do not do this, as CDers, we create. And the creation will be in line with our own thoughts and ideals of womanhood, which are both present in our female presentation and our attraction to another woman.

I have a thing for red-headed women. Now, we're talking about silly out-of-a-bottle, dyed, redhead. I'm talking proper ginger hair! Now - if I were to get a ginger wig, I probably would want to date myself, because what I wear also reflects the presentation I find attractive in women.

Let's put it this way: How many of us start out, or still love, dressing in "****ty" attire?

(Not me, actually - I'm just a fan of looking good.) xx

[tekla west]

Wow, DT, that is heavy. WAoVW is the movie about marriage that makes you think that staying single for the rest of your life might not be all that bad an idea. I have a friend who years after his most unpleasant divorce, plays that movie when he thinks he might want to fall in love again. I'm not that bad, but when I watch it it cuts like a knife and it makes me think, Never Again also.

Originally Albee wanted James Mason and Bettie Davis to to the lead roles and was opposed to the Taylor/Butron deal - he later recanted. But I always thought that it was brilliant to put Taylor there. After all, everyone knew that Bettie Davis was a B*tch on wheels. That Bettie Davis would or could act like that would surprise no one, particularly anyone who ever worked near her, LOL! But at the time WAoVA was filmed Liz Taylor was the most beautiful woman in the world by popular acclaim. And where no one would have to suspend their disbelief to think of Bettie as "the queen of the harpies" that Liz could be that person was saying that any woman - and in Albee's mind perhaps every woman - becomes so given enough time and liquor. And, Liz was a big time movie star, but in WAoVW she became perhaps one of the greatest actresses ever on the silver screen.

It because you could not see her as this person, and because you could see through the 30 pounds she put on to do the roll and see the women in the above pictures that makes it so tour-de-force. You know she was once pretty, she was once nice, but all that is gone and what is left its dregs of humanity in female form. What once was a a sweet and innocent person has degraded into a fat, ugly, foul-mouthed, drunken shrew. In this of course, her decent is matched by her husbands and I think that Burton's power in this is under-looked if only because Liz was so powerful.

I also think that Albee's being gay helped. I just can't see a straight guy ever depicting the female nature as close to the bone as Albee cut it, and I think he could do that because he did not have the sexual attraction hurdle to overcome. There is not a hint of sugar and spice and everything nice, no sweet Polly Purebred, no Pollyanna at all in that character, its pure essence of female in its most mean and hateful form.

I was tech director for a production of WAoVW once and it is one of the best shows I've ever worked. Almost makes me like theatre. And after you have sat through rehearsals for two months - long enough to know the dialogue by heart and then do the full blown production 25 times in 28 days you come to a different understanding of it. Like a friend of mine says, you have to be on a production of Romeo and Juliet to really see it enough, and know it deeply enough to understand that it is a comedy in many respects. Likewise in WAoVW you have to live though it to see the love story that it really is. That love is acted out by hate is just part of the folly of life.

And you would think that it would be hard to find female actors to do that roll, but the exact opposite is true, they would kill to be Martha. If only because most of the time they are expected to be Juliet all sweet and nice. I was talking to the woman who played the lead in the production I worked and casually said "Well there are not many parts like this for actresses" and she corrected me saying "Dear, there are NO other parts like this for actresses, its the only role in theatre where women get to act like men." Ouch.

But true to part of the question of the post, I'm sure most CDs would rather be Taylor's Cleopatra in all that heavy eye makeup, or prance around in their slip like Gloria Wandrous in Butterfield 8, or be the little girl with a horse Velvet Brown in National Velvet, or even Susanna Drake in Raintree County long before they would ever be Martha. Though most real woman are a lot more like Martha than Cleopatra. Even more so once you marry them.

[Calliope]

James Mason and Bettie Davis? That would have been a major error, eh.

The brilliant combination of factors, as I see it, include: (1) Few critics and producers thought ET could 'really act,' (2) there was a buzz going around about how RB and ET drank too much (how they did!) and (3) after the box-office disappointment of Sandpiper, convention sided with the view RB and ET worked better separately. So, the surprise effect, with a dash of voyeurism, gave WAoVW the lift it needed to be supernova.

Definitely one of my favorite movies.

Hell, it should be - I've lived it.

[tekla west]

Of course they orginaly wanted Ronald Reagan to do the role of Rick in Cassablanca. And Mason/Davis would have been good, Mason in particular, if you look at him in Lolita would have done well, but no doubt, Burton/Taylor did a masterpiece, one that will live on long after they are gone.

[Calliope]

Of course they orginaly wanted Ronald Reagan to do the role of Rick in Cassablanca.


You jivin' me there, sister?




[...] Mason in particular, if you look at him in Lolita would have done well [...]


Mason's performance was desperate, no doubt - but not Sixties desperate. He was great in Lolita - actually, he might have been the only great actor in Lolita. Talk about killing a book! That book was ideological and Kubrick just squeezed all the thought out of it.



[...] but no doubt, Burton/Taylor did a masterpiece, one that will live on long after they are gone.


I've been a big fan of ET and (especially) RB, love so many of their films, even convinced myself temporarily a lot of of their mediocre flicks were good, but I love their crazy bold choices of material; they were larger than life - but I gotta admit, without WAoVW, most of the substance of their legend is lacking.

[tekla west]

No joke on the Ron Reagan deal, though its unsure as to the truth of it. An early studio press release had him in the film, but perhaps in the role of Victor Lazlo and not Rick. Hal Wallace has said that he never had anybody but Bogart in mind for the role. But studios had more power then producers do now. So who know anymore, its been repeated on and on, but its been disclaimed too.

Didn't matter anyway as Ron was committed to other films, and didn't think it was good material. Remember, though we think of Casablanca as a milestone, one of the great American films, it pretty much bombed when it came out (as did, its a wonderful life by the way). It was the cult of Bogart in the 60s that brought it back, much like it was the TV movies on the night before Xmas that made IaWL such a hit. Sometimes things are not well thought of in their own time. Remember Beethoven's 9th was panned at its opening, too much singing. LOL!

But back to the topic. It seems to me the real power, and the eternal truth in WAoVW is that so many relationships are just like that. They are together and still the passion is there - and that passion is white hot - no doubt about that, but layered under years of resentments, false hopes, and illusions - not to mention delusions - that clean shiny tint of love falls off. What is left is base passion - because the base passions do not subside - and that passion feeds off of what is left, which is despair. And that despair is the most bitter of all emotions. The way they play it is so real that - like in real life - there is nothing heroic about it. You feel no sympathy for them because you KNOW they did this to themselves and only have themselves to blame for it.

[Calliope]

Word, sister.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

DayTripper, I agree with the points that ElleCD made. Some (or all) of your points are relevant to some folks some aren't.


6. If so, then she is recreated in a highly idealized form. Like a kinky Venus rising from an ocean of unfathomable fantasies, many a CD is born in garters, fishnet, pushup bras and crimson lipstick. Hotties eager to quench any desire - any male desire.

7. Is this creation, essentially a centerfold, anything a woman would claim as the essence of femininity? (Rarely are CDs preoccupied with childbirth.)

For what it's worth, Richard Docter, who spent a good part of his career studying CDs, concluded that CDing tends to be more fetishy toward the beginning of their "career" (interestingly this appeared to be true even for the small numbers of CDs who start in their 30s, 40s, 50s and 60s).

Are we cherrypicking the most enjoyable parts of "womanhood"? I'll cop to that for one, and I think it's generally true. Some are more overt about their "girls just wanna have fun" than others, but no, we generally don't seek to emulate being paid less, being sexually harassed, etc. OTOH, feminism has often asked for access to certain parts of masculinity (i.e. that which referred to "masculine privilege") and not to others. Nora Vincent, who posed as a man for 18-months for her book "Self-Made Man" was shocked by the experience, which wasn't nearly the life of privilege she expected. BTW, for what it's worth, a friend mine is on another forum that's frequented by FTMs who are in the "boys just wanna fun" mindset as much as some MTF party princesses.


8. (Perhaps the 'golden age' of the CD was the 1950's, an era when the appearance of the CD and the GG were most closely aligned. When does woman's lib - remember the 70's? - ever catch up with the general CD community? [Put in pop terms, we cannot invoke Joni Mitchell without first jettisoning Julie London.] )

I think appeal for the 50s is a generational thing. For myself, 50s fashions/behavior hold no appeal.

I think there are CDs who are feminists -- myself included -- and for whom being out en femme results in experiences that make one sympathic towards feminist causes. (For example, it's one thing to intellectually know about women's safety issues, it's another thing to actually be out in heels at late at night seeing a man approach with uncertain intent.) But as noted in another thread, being a CD is no guarantee of understanding women and femininity.

It's true CDs tend to be more femme than the typical women, but there's a couple understandable reasons for that. 1) If one is interested in crossing the gender line, it's probably less satisfying to be androynous. 2) If one is going out in public, to blend in one typically has to over-compensate a bit. If I were to try to go out looking like a tomboy, I'd just be read as a guy.