Clash of cultures !!! (Pub Thoughts Vol.2)

[Marla S]

I have been in my pub again, and had a bit time to let my mind wander.
(Mrs W. Had only one cup of coffee. So, absolutely no alcohol involved ! ;))
Caution: Lengthy and complex.

Empathy

Preface:
One thing I have learned due to my CDing is that it actually makes a difference if you feel a thought or if you have a thought.
An almost naive example: my purse story (some might remember).
IMO it makes a difference if you think you need a purse as an attribute to enhance your feminity or if you go out somehow en femme and suddenly feel “oh sh**, this won’t work without a purse.
Even more naïve: Someone who never walked in heels, won’t really understand why most women don’t walk around in 7 inch heels whole the day, though it looks soooo fem.

The point is: A personal experience is something completely different than every approach to understand or rationalize it (another of this trivial thoughts).

Now it comes to the empathy thing.

Main

Recently we head threads where there empathy was demanded by GGs from TGs and by TGs from GGs. This obviously is badly needed but it doesn’t seem to work even here on a forum where the more “advanced and experienced people” meet (I think we are only the tip of the iceberg here).

Thinking this over, it is no wonder.

From this logic and some experiences here, my conclusion is:

Most, if not all, TGs have absolutely no clue what it means for their SO to discover that we are CDs or TSs.
We can’t, as we never experienced what might be called a “shock treatment” under the current social conditions and with the current still more pathological view on Transgenderism by the scientists.
Of course a lot of TGs spend a considerable amount of time and effort to try to understand their SOs, but they have to fail, due to the lack of own experience.

On the other side:

Most, if not all, GGs have absolutely no clue what “living in the closet” means, though they might even accept and support TGs and/or live together with one. They can’t as they never experienced a life in the closet over years or decades, and during the time a independent personality is formed; the puberty (to be invited, or to be pulled into the SOs closet is not the same).

This is a clash of cultures !!!

How to attenuate ?

IMO empathy is important but not enough here as empathy doesn’t contain or produce experiences, if it is not based on experiences, which is not possible due to the “shock-treatment” on the one side and the “closet” on the other.

What is needed is an analogy which bears the potential to include experiences of the other partner, respectively.
Problem: As far as it concerns CDing or Transgenderism I am sure there is no analogy that covers it all.

Therefore we need workaround-analogies that cover at least certain aspects of the problem.

Problem: If workaround-analogies are used (by either side) it is very likely that the differences are pronounced instead of the similarities and that it very often leads to “bashing”.
(I.e. the infantilism* thread or the recent overweight discussion)

If we can’t overcome this, we’ll probably stick forever in the non-understanding and confrontation state.

What’s required:

- Assuming a positive, constructive intention if an analogy is brought up, instead of assuming the worst.
-Focusing on the similarities instead of the differences
- A minimum of an open mind.
- Ability to question oneself
- COURTASY (the evil will show off anyway sooner or later)

If we could achieve this than I am positive that empathy will have an impact.

Thanks for reading this far.

Marla


*Kew and others, I apologize for not following my own suggestions (they are new) and see your thread in a different light now.

[Janelle Young]

Marla,

Yes this is an interesting dilemma. The big problem, as you have pointed out, is that TG's and GG's do not have a common frame of reference.

This problem was illustrated to me years ago when I asked a color blind friend to describe to me what he saw. He said that he could not possibly do that as we did not have a common frame of reference. It took me a while to think about this (this was years ago and I got stoned back then) but I finally realized that he was right. Unless two people experience the "same" thing, there is no way one can ever truly know what the other has seen or been through. We can think we do, and say 'I can imagine' but in reality we can not.

I wish I could give some insight as to how this clash of cultures might be remedied, but alas I can not. This is (imo) going to be a hard problem to solve. That does not mean we should not work to solve it because if we can solve it great things will be our rewards.

[Satrana]

Simple summation: you have to be one to know one.

[Marla S]

Janelle, thanks

The "lack of a common frame of reference" pretty much sums it up.
(Sometimes I wish I would find the essence myself :D )

What's the way out ?

[Julogden]

Janelle, thanks

The "lack of a common frame of reference" pretty much sums it up.
(Sometimes I wish I would find the essence myself :D )

What's the way out ?
Hi Marla,

I don't know the way out if one is already in a committed relationship. I just know that it will require give-and-take on both "sides", and neither will be completely happy, but things can work out very nicely if both people care enough about the other and work at it, there's ample evidence of that here on these boards.

However, I feel that unattached CD's should resist hiding their gender issues completely, don't be afraid to show at least some hints that you're a bit different in the gender department. That way, if you meet someone who likes that, they'll be able to recognize that you're someone that they might want to get to know better.:2c:

Ideally, we should thoroughly explore our gender issues before getting into a committed relationship. I know, easier said than done, it sometimes turns out that we enter a relationship before realizing that we're a CD/TG/TS/whatever.:happy:

Carol:hugs:

[Kimberly]

It is true though, throughout our lives - without reference to Crossdressing, Transgenderism or anything else present on this forum - that we only have our own experiences of this world to go on. So, what is truth?

--Thread Hijacking Countermeasures Implimented--

Sorry. Back to the point:

Pink Floyd sum it up best in thier song, Time:
All you touch and all you see,
Is all your life will ever be.

It's an horrific thought to me, that whatever I do to my body, I will never know what it is like to be female. Genetically, I never will be - nor will any of our sisters in their struggle for expression.

Of course, empathy will only ever tell you so much. As an actor and director I countlessly rationalise emotions and situations to give a desired response, action or reaction on stage. There are lots of different methods of acting, but this is an incredibly common one in our western society. This is a type of empathy - using my own experience to evaluate a situation then act that -- almost, if not completely, feeling what I am portraying.

You can act fearful - but are you fearful? The rational part of you is - but the emotional side may not be. I have never got to that level. When you act in love with someone, you never are in love with them. Those of us who have experience of this can conjure feelings of love and implant them within someone else - and only through the correct presentation will the effect of "love" be felt.

This is a lot like CDing, and what you speak of. Crossdressing, inside ourselves, may be an expression of who we feel most comfortable as - but only through outward presentation can we do this. And only through correct presentation of gesture etc can we fool others into thinking we are female (or male).

Empathy does not give 100% of the desired factor of understanding. I have yet to rationalise crossdressing in its many forms. I have written thoughts and feelings on the subject personally - and formulated ideas and theories on gender and expression. But this is only from my personal view. I write these ideas one minute, then reject them the next, finding they don't fit.

So, this is a long way of saying, "I don't know what to do." But I think the jist of your post, and my lecture (:p) is that empathy will not answer all our problems. I have found, and read here, that there are many who are unaccepting of our situation - close to us. My father for example. He will never empathise, because of the fear of what that might lead to - him understanding my situation a little better. He doesn't want what that might lead to: a daughter.

Of course, again, I am only guessing. I truly do not know what he's thinking. And so sympathy and empathy are revoked again.

Addition: We shouldn't give up, though. Empathy can tell us something about a situation and how it may feel. You only need information. Say to a partner: "What's your earliest experience? How did that feel? When did you first start thinking of yourself in female terms? How does that feel?" They're tough questions, but with thought we can answer them.

xx (Yay happy 1,500 post for me!!)

[Tree GG]

em·pa·thy [ émpəthee ]
noun

Definition:

1. understanding of another's feelings: the ability to identify with and understand somebody else's feelings or difficulties

2. attribution of feelings to an object: the transfer of somebody's own feelings and emotions to an object such as a painting

From a newly coping GG SO point of view, I was very intrigued by this post as I struggle to understand the emotional motivation to CD. I had believed empathy meant to feel another's feeling. The above faux-Webster definition does not state that. It only requires understanding or projecting/interpretting a feeling. I can certainly understand and share his feeling to want to feel pretty, desirable, relaxed and attractive, but I can't agree that he's prettier as a woman. Does that mean I can't or won't empathize?

The repsonsibility/desire to accept (the SO), and to be accepted (CDer), is the same. So should empathy not be an automatic response?

CDer, or not, everyone wants to feel loved & respected - we can all empathize with that.

IMO, the only way out is death or spiritual evolution. We are emotional souls born into a physical shell/boundary that isolates us from the other souls. As humans we predominantly rely on gesture and language (and clothes) to communicate the feeling/meaning. Very few can transcend the physical to communicate on a completely emotional/energy level. Most would be afraid to try.

I did a research project on color recognition by the human eye. It showed that 10 people looking at the same colored sheet of paper would rate the hue/color value & intensity in at least 7 different ways. The individual combinations of cones/rods, synoptic activity and perception make infintesimal combinations possible. Point being that even with an analogous situation to call upon, the tools/experience available to my human understanding may scue the end feeling to something different than you feel.

Sorry, too long winded. Short point to long reading, nature is divine and beautiful because of the diversity and lack of sameness. We are all unique, just like everybody else.

Thanks for letting me share.
Tree

[Calliope]

Wow, Marla, great thread, sister!

Although I dig your thoughts on empathy, I am going to start off questioning your premise paragraph a little.




[...] it actually makes a difference if you feel a thought or if you have a thought.


Do we fully assume that women are prone to experiencing life (and solving problems) more intuitively than men? (At least that seems implied in the above.) Consider Rosa Luxemburg (especially The Accumulation of Capital: An Anti-Critique) - wasn't she as rational as any dude? Then consider VI Lenin (especially Materialism and Empirio-Criticism) - wasn't he as emotional as any babe?



It's an horrific thought to me, that whatever I do to my body, I will never know what it is like to be female.

I wonder. Let's forget the appearance of the body for a moment and consider some of the things a body does. What if you applied for a 'brainy' job and was turned down, or perhaps offered a position at reduced pay, simply because your appearance - rococo hairdo and cheap perfume, perhaps - suggested less education and aptitude? Wouldn't that experience be fem?

Hijacking a comment from the Shrew post...


We are doing something that women don't - we are creating another presentation, in some effect - another person.

Ah, women create alternative personae all the time. Maybe a woman puts on a tight skirt when she goes to a job interview - say, waiting tables - because she believes that particular presentation will get the gig.

My conclusion: Perhaps CDs can draw upon classic mainstream feminism in order to find a bridge to GGs - and vice versa.

[Marla S]

I am going to start off questioning your premise paragraph a little.
Question ahead. That's the fun of it.:D


Do we fully assume that women are prone to experiencing life (and solving problems) more intuitively than men?
I didn't want to make a statement about which gender is better in what. There are dozens studies every weak, in every newspaper, claiming that they have found the philospohers stone, gender wise. I don't want and can't make a justified judgment here. My guess: Gentically there are some accumulations for the genders with a huge overlapp between the genders (brain wise). The rest is due to the social separation of the genders and the consequences of physical differences.
Taking the social separation and the "purse" to explain what I wanted to say.

As a man I have dozens of pockets available while in drab, and it is logical for a man to put every thing in there - no need for a purse, and they are not allowed anyway.
If I am emphatic as a man I can think of why women have purses - Not so much pockets in their clothes. they need something to hide their stuff. This is having a thought.

Having a thougt also is to dress femme and pick a purse just to complete the image of a woman.

Feeling a thought is to go out en femme without a purse, cause you are just a man in dress who usually hides his stuff in the pockets (no pockets, nothing hidden, so what), and suddenly realize that you have nothing to fix your makeup. In this very moment you feel the thought of having a purse with you. And you get a grip on a corner of feminity (in this case an "artificial one" that is made due to gender separation).
(Ironically a lot of women hate it when their SOs have baggy pockets, but wouldn't allow them to wear a purse, 'cause it looks gay ;))

By feeling this thought you create the common frame of reference. You get a feeling for the question why most women love their purses and you can honestly talk about it from your own experiences. There is far less room for misunderstanding left.

[Calliope]

I didn't want to make a statement about which gender is better in what.


Oh, I don't think you did, no problem there.

I guess I'm just wondering where the idea - I've heard and seen it expressed a lot - women are more intuitive originates. Maybe there's some massive piece of information I missed. Remember, I've been 'a [poor excuse for a] guy' for years until just recently - I'm not up to speed at all.

Getting off track a bit I admit, my missus is the 'logical' one - she works as a (computer) network engineer; I stay home and care for the kids (if for no other reason, I really have no job skills) - so she does the appointments and planning and deciding while I, embarrassing to say it really, bop to tunes and fingerpaint with my kids. In short, my wife has the math, I have the arts. So you see why I question the premise a bit.





If I am emphatic as a man I can think of why women have purses - Not so much pockets in their clothes. they need something to hide their stuff. This is having a thought. [...] Feeling a thought is to go out en femme without a purse, cause you are just a man in dress who usually hides his stuff in the pockets (no pockets, nothing hidden, so what), and suddenly realize that you have nothing to fix your makeup. In this very moment you feel the thought of having a purse with you.


Well put, Wittgenstein would tip his hat (at least he should). I get it, it makes sense. It makes sense in my head, tidy theory, but my heart needs a bit more ... finessing on the issue.

Digressing again, since I care for the kids (who used to be babies) I had to get used to a diaper bag. Of course, it started off as a big (manly) backpack and, as I learned what I really require and what I don't, I eventually settled on this smallish (but ugly) purse-thing. Just the smallest push and, presto, I get myself something with a bit more color - and ah ha, now I'm a 'lady' (note quotes, please, all GGs).




By feeling this thought you create the common frame of reference. You get a feeling for the question why most women love their purses and you can honestly talk about it from your own experiences. There is far less room for misunderstanding left.


To my ears, that seems really useful.

I really appreciate you sharing your musings.

Don't stop now.

[Kimberly]

Oh, [I]I guess I'm just wondering where the idea - I've heard and seen it expressed a lot - women are more intuitive originates.
Getting off track a bit I admit, my missus is the 'logical' one - she works as a (computer) network engineer; I stay home and care for the kids
I can identify with this so much. I was with a girlfriend for 7 months, only a couple of years ago - when I was exploring the fact that my dressing maybe more than fetishistic. She was the logical one - had to rationalise everything, and so I discovered she was the unstable one of the relationship. She used to have panic attacks, and get quite obsessive over things. I would say, from my experience of getting to know her a hell of a lot over 7 months, that I was the more intuitive of us. I always seem to have been in my relationships. I have been told, and can sense myself, that I can pick up on feelings very quickly of people.

Most people will go, "Are you ok?" to someone, and if they get "Yeah," they'll leave it. I tend to be more direct... and can pretty quickly figure out what's wrong with the person. Whilst looking after special needs kids over the summer I was told I worked well 1 to 1, because I was very intuitive.

My Drama teacher once told us something as a class. To be good at Drama, whichever facet, you must have eyes able to learn. You must be constantly looking around you, analysing, learning, witnessing. I do this as well, and have picked up on this since he said it. I've always done it - I just never noticed until he gave us that lecture. Does that make me more intuitive than a woman?

So, let's say for arguements sake that the brain is the same for men and women in either case at birth. We're now looking at the uncommon or seperate frame of reference of male and female as something altered by environment and upbringing. The nurture arguement for gender as apposed to nature.

But psychology students, who I know and know about my CDing, have told me of a case study they were given about a genetic male who had complications with his sexual organs at birth. His parents decided to alter using surgery and they were given a baby girl. Years into adolescence the child exhibited gender dysphoria symptoms -- she knew that genetically she was different! (and transitioned into a man again.)

This brings me back to my original point. We will never be women, whatever we do - genetically. So, I presume, we must question gender, to find what it really is and means to society and to ourselves.

xx

[eleyna]

I was raised in a very racist town, and it had a major effect on my childhood. I'm caucasian, but I have olive skin so I was often referred to as something else, and treated badly. I thought I understood the plight of people who suffer racism. Until our school allowed a black kid in. What that guy went thru...

It was like thinking you know the smell of the ocean just from opening a can of tuna in brine.

Empathy implies a common sharing/experience of thoughts and feelings without the need to express them, and I don't think you should try to reach for that in this case. Focus on the similarities instead of the differences, but respect and honor those differences, because they're important. The distinction between wanting to be *dressed* like a woman vs wanting to *be* a woman is far from annecdotal, the same way that being a girl is not 'slightly' different from becoming one. We live in a male, patriarchal society, and looking at GGs as 'the lucky ones' can be seen as patronising. They roll with the die nature gave them, but we choose to swap sides and expect to be treated like one of the team.

Not trying to bash anyone, just trying to cast a little light on a perspective many of my TG friends have never seemed to consider.

[Marla S]

Hi Tree


I can certainly understand and share his feeling to want to feel pretty, desirable, relaxed and attractive, but I can't agree that he's prettier as a woman. Does that mean I can't or won't empathize?
I think one of the underlying problems here is that most CDs probably would agree that we have to disintegrate the gender-borders (clothes wise, and traits wise, etc.), BUT with their attempt to pass or to emulate women they are doing the contrary. Their escape from being "trapped as a man" directly leads to being "trapped as a woman". The latter is a role only very few of us are able to fill out. This switch from one role to the other seems to be the most natural for a lot of the TG folks, but also for the non-TG folks.
This might be the cause of your question.
As you write it you have empathy for the desire to feel pretty. That's great and your SO is a lucky one to have found you.
That you can't agree that he is prettier as a woman doesn't lower your empahty. Without knowing your SO, it is probably the plain truth.
BUT, maybe it is a mistake by the both of you not to see that a "man-in-dress" can be pretty on it's own, without being measured by the common "stereotypes". It is not easy to switch these stereotypes off (for both sides), but if you are able to see a well and tastefull styled man-in-dress for a little moment without the "stereotype-glasses" you might even see beauty.


The repsonsibility/desire to accept (the SO), and to be accepted (CDer), is the same. So should empathy not be an automatic response? Of course, but I think empathy is a dull tool under the current view on transgenderism by the society. This view is a predominataly negative one (sick, pervert, freaks and the like), which sands a good part of the power of empathy.
(In this negative view there is indeed a common frame of reference for CDs and GGs. CDs suffer from the very first day they realize that they don't fit into the norms, their GGs from the very first day they become aware of the CDing)


CDer, or not, everyone wants to feel loved & respected - we can all empathize with that.
I agree, but again, it is the "curtain-of-perversion" that allows only tolerance or acceptance, at best. What is needed is understanding or normality.
If we could cut the "curtain-of-perversion" and it would become normal to see TG folks on the street, we probalby wouldn't talk here.


IMO, the only way out is death ... I don't consider this neither as a necessary solution, nor as a good one (I am sure some of the TG folks commit suicide, because of the social repressions)
... or spiritual evolution. Right, for some this might be a way out, the more than CDing itself can be highly spiritual sometimes (at least for me), it's a trip to ones soul.


I did a research project on color recognition by the human eye. It showed that 10 people looking at the same colored sheet of paper would rate the hue/color value & intensity in at least 7 different ways. The individual combinations of cones/rods, synoptic activity and perception make infintesimal combinations possible. Point being that even with an analogous situation to call upon, the tools/experience available to my human understanding may scue the end feeling to something different than you feel.
Interesting, I ever assumed that everybody sees the same colour different.
Well, the sad point about this is that we are finally all on our own, which doesn't prevent us from intertacting with others, though.
To find the bridge that allows us to communicate in a productive way, is a bit the intention of this thread.

BTW: I recommend reading Jade Dream's thread (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38818). There is a lot of truth in it, and it fits for the "clash of cultures".

[DAVIDA]

I didn't know my life was so complicated! I think somebody needs a hug:hugs:

[eleyna]

BUT with their attempt to pass or to emulate women they are doing the contrary. Their escape from being "trapped as a man" directly leads to being "trapped as a woman".

Hrm. That's not really a very empathy inducing statement :p

I think you've already made the point that as we boys develop our feminine, a forum like this feeds our delusion of eventual womanhood - whether that is (as a TG friend of mine put it) penis-in-pink or penis-in-verted (and my apologies to those CDs who don't wear pink, its just a phrase!) So we somehow anticipate being received as a new member of the team, shown the office secrets, and treated as one of the family.

Plain empathy is honestly out of the question, there can only ever be shades of empathy. The TGs amongst us who are attracted to men will never have to worry about getting pregnant, while there are women who will relate to those of them who will always mourn the inability to bear their SO's children; but that is only a partial empathy.

It's like superman trying to empathize with fear of having a gun pointed at you. Sure, if the bullet was kryptonite he might be worried. But if there is a gun pointing at you, I'm pretty sure you aren't wondering what the bullet is made of or whether you should melt the gun with your heat rays before they can pull the trigger!

And, I think I've demonstrated, that analogies can be unhelpful too :)

I think the problem you are seeing is an excess of attempted (and uneccessary) empathy.

What we do need is a little mutual respect and understanding of our *differences*. At its very simplest, we can never understand fully how the other gender's mind works - unless you are raised that way from birth, unless your brain went thru puberty with that hormone soup ... the true inner workings will always elude you. The other reality is that this is a man's world. It doesn't matter that the genetic males of us here are wanting to bat for the other team at varying levels. My desire to wear skirts makes nobody's life easier. And I think its important not just to this topic but to our understanding of our own CD/TGing: we try to ignore/overlook these aspects of being truly female when we aspire to it. Do we think "It would be nice to have most of the people we meet only look at our breasts instead of evaluating our personalities?" or "It would be nice not to be able to earn what I do right now because nobody wants to hire a woman to do a 'mans' job?"

[Calliope]

... really good musings here ...



Interesting, I ever assumed that everybody sees the same colour different.


Believe it or not, about 300 years ago, the color purple did not exist (in language). It was a shade of brown. Eventually that shade received so many references in language it merited its own distinction. Hopefully that makes a happy analogy for us.



I think one of the underlying problems here is that most CDs probably would agree that we have to disintegrate the gender-borders (clothes wise, and traits wise, etc.), BUT with their attempt to pass or to emulate women they are doing the contrary. Their escape from being "trapped as a man" directly leads to being "trapped as a woman".


Even worse - and I think many a GG would agree - CDs get to take the best of the female world (pampered, lovely, recreational) then shift back to take the best of the male world (better job, head of the house, more $). I mean, what CD wants the labor market pressures of the male world, then go experience the domestic drudgery of the female world? CDs may be seen as gender tourists. We need a world where everyone can benefit from this ability to shift to and fro within genders.


Do we think "It would be nice to have most of the people we meet only look at our breasts instead of evaluating our personalities?" or "It would be nice not to be able to earn what I do right now because nobody wants to hire a woman to do a 'mans' job?"

Dig it.


We live in a male, patriarchal society, and looking at GGs as 'the lucky ones' can be seen as patronising.

Again - dig it. CDs seem to want the 'pay' of the female experience (the clothes we choose are so often the veneer of luxury) without asking for the 'job' (childcare, dependence upon mate, etc.)

[Tree GG]

Marla S,

Thanks so much for starting this thread. For whatever reason, I'm finding it very therapeutic.

I'd agree that the vast majority of societies find CD to be perverted (anyone want to try dressing as a womn in a fundamental Muslem setting? - there go the color choices), but for the most part, once a behavior is shown to be benign, I believe most people (individually/small groups) would really care less. You'd get the full range of reaction from humor to apathy to ambiguity. Unfortunately, "unconventional" behavior is usually perceived as potentially dangerous simply because it is unfamiliar. Guilty until proven innocent.

Perversion is not my issue - what is perversion?. In my immediate family I have a 6'4" fetish CD brother (openly at every opportunity); a lesbian sister; a recovering alcoholic father (sober for 25 years); another mildly autistic brother; etc, etc. I love them all unconditionally - as they are. Is it perverted that I'm a naturist (semi-nudity in secluded, natural settings)? From some points of view - yes. From my perspective - No. It's just a whole lot more comfortable & relaxing that way when it's hot & humid.

Is my physical appearance attractive in that "clothing condition" (or lack thereof) - let's just say I don't think Playboy will be calling soon. But that's not my concern or motivation, so I respect your comments about the beauty of a man in a dress. Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder (perspective). The CD/SO understanding problem is more perspective based - my SO wants (needs?) me to respond to the fully transformed persona in the same/similar manner as I do to the man I've known for 27+ years. I can't promise that with any honesty (The full en femme persona hasn't materialized yet) Now there's disappointment and rejection from the CDer side & guilt/anger from the GG/SO side, making the whole transromation process more difficult. Empathy and communication (probably not enough) are there, but the result is still problematic and stressful to both sides. No real acceptance resolution.

Point of view - perspective makes all the difference. I cannot even begin to imagine the view from your vantage, as you cannot see mine - even though we both may have a genuine desire to do so. IMO, true communication requires a message be sent and that message be received with the same meaning, and is difficult to accomplish at best. I cannot see the forest OR the trees if there is an ocean between me & the woods. (We need to build a boat) I'm not suggesting it is hopeless and true empathy/understaning can't occur, but it's hard simply because we're human. Many perceptions to circumnavigate.
Tree

[eleyna]

I wanted to finish my last post with a positive up-note, a suggestion (i.e. in the spirit of the thread), but it was an impression I had, and I couldn't find words for it. But reading Tree's post, I managed to find a word for it: Mediation.

As Tree said, messages need to be received with the same meaning. True empathy is not really an option, if it was we wouldn't be here in the first place. Take a long hard think about that. This territory is scary because its so hard for any two sides of fences to understand each other.

But a medium like this does provide us an opportunity to mediate for one another. Heck, here I am arguing the GGs case for why I feel that we CDs and TGs, of all people, ought to have the utmost respect for the GGs here, and all those things we can never attain in aspiring to be like the, they actually have to live with the difficult realities of those things.

Bulletin-board style forums can be emotional hell-holes. The only prevention is a good community that understands it will be misunderstood.

This is especially important here since we are a multinational community. Marla - it's been over 10 years since I was able to speak conversational German, and when I tried to speak to a German friend a year ago, after 5 minutes he told me in no polite sense, that it would be better if I stuck to English, so please don't take offense at this remark, however, I suspect that the 'vibe', the emotion you read in my posts will probably be different than I perhaps intend. It'll be different between English and American readers too. But I know I would have chosen different words, ordered sentences and thoughts differently, if I'd caught the fact you're in Germany in my first couple of posts (take that as a compliment on your English!)

Consider the Kenyan turn of phrase, which translates loosely: "Three pigs up your ass". Threat? Greeting? Insult? Actually it means you're looking well fed - like you've feasted on three pigs - that the food has sat well and has passed the stomach and is well on the way to final digestion =)

[Tree GG]

[QUOTE=eleyna;547310]
... Heck, here I am arguing the GGs case for why I feel that we CDs and TGs, of all people, ought to have the utmost respect for the GGs here, and all those things we can never attain in aspiring to be like the, they actually have to live with the difficult realities of those things...

As long as you can do that, and I can support your right to wear/feel anything you darn well please, we'll be OK.

Tree GG

[Christina Nicole]

Empathy? I doubt that there is a way to that place. The problem for many wives and girlfriends is not on the intellectual level, but on an emotional and visceral level. It's a reaction to something very contrary to their understanding of how things should be. Changing that is a lot harder. But between people who have an intimate connection, they should be able to work that issue out. Because,


Pink Floyd sum it up best in thier song, Time:
All you touch and all you see,
Is all your life will ever be.
is absolutely untrue. Everyone's life is far more than what can be seen and touched. For example, one can't see and touch hope, but hope is a key. If both parties sincerely want to work out a solution, a compromise, then hope tells them that they can. The rest, is details. Compromise should not be too much to ask; therefore, following that with understanding and respect should certainly be possible. The reason so many couples don't work out an understanding is simply because one refuses to believe that accommodation is possible.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Kimberly]

You misquote me... and the Floyd :p

What I interperate that phrase as meaning, is that our own perspective of life is all we have to go on. I believe some people can honestly kid themselves into believing something so hollow, and yet they will believe it until they die.

So does that mean that what they believed in wasn't true? It was true to them... but was it true to others? To you? Or me?

I asked a friend today, (in a pub!), "What is feminine?" And I got a very strange answer... "floaty things." From her perspective she evaluated femininity and described it in analogy -- which is what I think we do with CDing. We take feminity, not being female, and express it from within our own perspective. This is not being female, however.

There have been moments in my life, when I have thought, "Yeah - I would take all of what it means to be female, to almost be a 'second-class' citizen, to sometimes be unemployable, to have periods, to have the risk of pregnancy... I'd take it all, to be female." But then again, I question myself. Would I want to completely destroy being male - what I have been for 19 years of my life? Turn my back on all that? ... I don't know the answer.


It's funny. I read "Patriarchal male privilage" and then suddenly consider it truth... Honestly - from my perspective, I don't believe I have ever had it happen to me. I haven't conciously seen it. I have never thought, "Wow - I just got that for being male." What I have seen is men who think they are better than women, which has always been proved wrong. This does not discredit some people's perspective and experience of male privilage. The fact that many other people, as well as a movement of women, have risen against it and experience its negative effects mean that it is truth.

I only talk from my perspective.

[Calliope]

I read "Patriarchal male privilage" and then suddenly consider it truth... Honestly - from my perspective, I don't believe I have ever had it happen to me. I haven't conciously seen it. I have never thought, "Wow - I just got that for being male."

I'm pretty sure 'patriarchal male privilege' is more readily discerned from a woman's perspective. (How would I know? I married a real classic 70's libber [once upon a time] ... and that's what she told me - a lot.)

[Satrana]

The reason so many couples don't work out an understanding is simply because one refuses to believe that accommodation is possible.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

Words of wisdom. Too many people have closed minds and refuse to change their own beliefs to accommodate others

[Kimberly]

I'm pretty sure 'patriarchal male privilege' is more readily discerned from a woman's perspective. (How would I know? I married a real classic 70's libber [once upon a time] ... and that's what she told me - a lot.)
The essence of this thread. :)

xx

[Marla S]

Sorry, needed a little break, 'cause my brain cells needed to relax a bit.:D


It's an horrific thought to me, that whatever I do to my body, I will never know what it is like to be female. Genetically, I never will be - nor will any of our sisters in their struggle for expression.
I might be a bit too far away from being a TS, nevertheless I think it is always a fault to try to become someone other than oneself. You only can fail and additionally you will have a hard time to reach this.
This battle is lost before it started. To become oneself and to unfold your traits should be the goal, instead to become “the woman” (which one precisely ? ;))



Hrm. That's not really a very empathy inducing statement

I think you've already made the point that as we boys develop our feminine, a forum like this feeds our delusion of eventual womanhood - whether that is (as a TG friend of mine put it) penis-in-pink or penis-in-verted (and my apologies to those CDs who don't wear pink, its just a phrase!) So we somehow anticipate being received as a new member of the team, shown the office secrets, and treated as one of the family.
Well, it is likely that I am lacking a bit of empathy here, because my view on CDing seems to be a bit different than those of most members here. I don’t know why that is. Either I am born in this “different” way or, what I assume is more likely, it is due to my way of thinking. I rather tend to question common views than to follow the “mainstream” (it’s even kind of sports). Most of the time this will lead me back to the “mainstream view” (then I know why that is), but in rare cases it gives a whole new, productive insight for me, which is worth the set backs when I failed again.
What I meant by being “trapped as woman” is i.e. that there seems to be a considerable urge to pass, knowing only very few are able to, some more think they are able to, some don’t care, other’s become frustrated because they realize they don’t pass. Except for the very few that are able to pass, passing is a trap IMO. A trap that might even contribute to the rejection by the SOs and the society.
If you take all the effort into account that is necessary for most of us to become at least passable, this hasn’t much to do with a GG’s life, the less if you extrapolate it to the every day life of a GG.
This way statements like “I want to be feminine” or “I want to be a woman” and the like become highly questionable IMO. And maybe a bit of the trouble some of us have with their SOs is due to the fact that the GGs can’t identify with this image of feminity we produce (A guess, though).

In this sense I agree with DayTripper and her very nice neologism:
A lot of us behave like
Gender Tourists, which is of course a result of the social situation too, but also contradicts a bit the goal (?) to get grip on “womanhood”.
(An honest view to deal with this IMO is a statement like “I want the best of both worlds”. This is both, a good point of view and unmasking.)


Thanks so much for starting this thread.
You’re welcome. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts.:happy:


You'd get the full range of reaction from humor to apathy to ambiguity. Unfortunately, "unconventional" behavior is usually perceived as potentially dangerous simply because it is unfamiliar. Guilty until proven innocent.
Very good point. Here I wish again I’d found the essence myself.
But hey, isn’t that what discussions are for ?


I can't promise that with any honesty (The full en femme persona hasn't materialized yet) Now there's disappointment and rejection from the CDer side & guilt/anger from the GG/SO side, making the whole transromation process more difficult. Empathy and communication (probably not enough) are there, but the result is still problematic and stressful to both sides. No real acceptance resolution.
Well, from my “weird” point of view, I just can’t bring up enough empathy to believe that a full transforming CDer is showing his real personality. I might be a condensed sketch of some traits, but it is as incomplete as the “drab-man”. If so, I might be emphatic enough to understand that it is hard for a SO to deal with it.

Point of view - perspective makes all the difference.
Sooooo true.

[JiveTurkeyOnRye]

In a story by James Joyce called the Dubliners, the main idea that the protagonist hits upon in the end is that it is impossible for one person to truly know another person because everyone perceives the world in their own way and everyone has their own thought process that is unique to them and while through love and marriage we come close to knowing someone, even the closest couples still remain slightly unaware of their partners being.

In this thread a common theme has been that GGs and TGs lack a common frame of reference. Is this true? certainly. But does it mean that the two cannot get along? certainly not. The key to things is compromise. Everyone has the ability to compromise and when one enters a partnership one must use that ability for the greater good of all parties involved.

This is true whether we are talking about TG/GG relationships, or just men and women, or men and men, and women and women.

[Marla S]

In this thread a common theme has been that GGs and TGs lack a common frame of reference. Is this true? certainly. But does it mean that the two cannot get along? certainly not. The key to things is compromise. Everyone has the ability to compromise and when one enters a partnership one must use that ability for the greater good of all parties involved.


Well, getting along is certainly possible (maybe even more easy than we think), but here again I have my problems with the word compromise.
As empathy, compromise seems to be too straightforward to me.
Compromising, as empathy, already has to include a common frame of reference, otherwise it will end up in a lose-lose-situation, that might be enough for a short time, but can't bridge the gap.

Changing the perspective in order to bridge the gap, like Tree said, seems to me more promising.
Only afterwards a pragmatic compromise on when, how, to which degree, to which occasion to dress or not can be fruitful IMO.

[Satrana]

Good points Marla. Compromise and empathy must be based on a willingness to understand and respect another's viewpoint. It seems to me that the main problem in the rift between cds and ggs is often an unwillingness to listen, learn and respect each other and accept that complete emphathy is not achievable due to the lack of common reference.

You do not need to understand why someone feels or acts a certain way, just accept it and find a way to deal with it and reach reasonable compromises.

[AmberTG]

WOW, this is some heavy thought process here, most facinating to read and very thought provoking!