Most People are Nominally, Bisexual. Now what you choose…

[SallyBowles]

Most People are Nominally, Bisexual. Now what you choose…

Before someone blasts on me, google the Kinsey report. Yes, the statistics have been questioned but it is the broadest survey of human sexuality ever done. Even with it’s inaccuracies it is the closest we have for showing what sexual America is about.

I’m seeing on this site how both the CD boys and the GGs getting so bent out of shape of proclaiming how “straight” they or theirs is.

Bluntly- a good percentage of men fantasize about being with a man through certain periods, if not all of their life. And so do women about being with a woman. Let us just be honest here. A good portion of the “het” population could, can given the right chance, cross or swing. If you are under thirty, and attended a large state school, you most probably might have…

What is the big deal? We all have desires. If you are in a relationship, you need to define between you and your beloved what is and not acceptable.

What I am referring to is that poor person (I say poor in the sense of he asked advice and all he got was people going on about marriage and cheating. There was some solid advice but I just got fed up with the thread…)

To the GGs, yes there is a good chance for a fantasy that your boy would want to get his head under another boy’s skirt. And that you would like to do the same with a girl.

We all have the right to live what ever life we desire in our mind.

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Sally,

There is a the notion that sex, gender and sexuality are stabilizing constructs: that to be a male man attracted to female women or a female woman attracted to male men is all that makes sense from a cultural standpoint.

The big deal is that while we all may have bisexual tendencies, from a social standpoint, heterosexuality is the only truly accepted way to be. We are taught that any sort of homosexual thoughts are bad and wrong (sorry Maria :)) and that heterosexuality is the only correct form of sexuality. We associate shame and guilt with homosexuality - so much to the point that even the suggestion that we might feel other than 100% heterosexual will send us into a panic and we immediately go on the defensive. It is not something we want to be perceived as.

Have a look at this thread: The Difficulty of Acceptance (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26907) for more detail on this. I can PM you a bit more on this if you are interested.



Love & Stuff,
Donna

[EricaCD]

If the proposition is that all of us are bi to a degree, then I will just say that I disagree, and I really don't give a hoot what an antiquated Kinsey survery says to the contrary.

If you are defining sexual orientation by whether a person might periodically fantasize about sexual contact with a member of their same genetic gender, then of course many of us are "bi". In my case, I am also a wannabe murderer, a thief, a fraud, adulterer and all-around louse--if you are characterizing people by what their fantasies might indicate absent the controls of reason, intellect and social conditioning. Surely, such a definition is too broad to be helpful in any meaningful respect - other than to give comfort to actual bisexuals who feel lonely or isolated.

I am not saying that a person needs to have actually participated in sexual activity with the same sex to be bisexual or gay. At some point a person's desires and lusts are sufficiently clear to indicate a condition that most of us would generally accept as bisexuality or homosexuality. It's more than a little patronizing, however, to assume that "most of us" automatically fall into that category.

[CaptLex]

Well, I think the Kinsey Report was helpful for its time, but not completely accurate today and should be updated. To say that everyone falls somewhere on the Kinsey scale as gay, straight or bi is to perpetuate the belief that there are only two genders. Since some of us fall in-between male and female or don't completely identify with either one, terms like pansexual and polyamorous are also used to further define attraction to another. To some this is more inclusive and helpful, while others see it as complicating matters more. Whatever your particular view on this, if this is how people see themselves, then I think the Kinsey scale needs to be re-defined.


I’m seeing on this site how both the CD boys and the GGs getting so bent out of shape of proclaiming how “straight” they or theirs is.
I just want to ask for a clarification on this comment, when you say "CD boys" are you referring to MtFs or FtMs?

[MarilynH]

An extension of this would be that there are many animal species that have demonstrated episodes of bi- and homosexual behavior.

Humans, however, are the only species that distinguishes/compartmentalizes based on a person's sexual experiences.

It used to be thought that we were also the only species to engage in sex for pure enjoyment. The discovery of other species participating in homosexual activities, has changed that perspective, somewhat.

My position is so long as it feels good, and no one is getting hurt, why worry about who it is with? Simply be healthy about it.

Hugs.

[vbcdgrl]

I have to admit, I have had fantasies about being with a man(or men), but only while dressed and portraying myself as a woman. I don't obsess about it because I know it's just a fantasy that will not be realized.
When I'm in drab, I fantacize about being with women( one, in particular), but this too, is very unlikely to be fulfilled.
I do get very uneasy when I think about or see 2 guys kissing or whatever, and I don't like to see homosexuality hyped as a "mainstream" lifestyle.
I don't know what label to hang on myself.

Vikki

[debitv]

Vikki, I read your post with interest. I felt the same way in my teens and twenties.

Be easy on yourself, okay? You may just have some unconscious stuff floating around that you haven't been ready to deal with. Relax and be easy on yourself. Don't be so quick to label yourself, or judge yourself because you don't know who you are yet...

You have interesting things to learn about yourself in the near future. Know that not all of us know who we are or what we're about until much later in life. Don't be hard on yourself or down on yourself because you don't know yet...

Take it easy on yourself; live your life, and learn. Who and what you are will come from the inside, not from some label or what somebody else thinks you are or calls you.

I'm not saying all the things you'll learn will be fun, that is a big lie...but some of them will be!

Learn from your mistakes, take some calculated risks...use both your head and your heart together, because to go exclusively with one or the other can cause you to get burned...and if you learn to make them work with each other, it will keep you from having an overabundance of painful lessons.

Sorry to sound so preachy, but I feel for you.

You be good to yourself.

Best wishes,

Debitv

[AmandaM]

I think you are sadly misinformed. Just because lots of us may fit the bill, it doesn't mean society at large is. Kinsey was flawed. To support his own predilections some say.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Actually in the Yvonne's Place 1999 survey (http://www.thedigitalvillage.com/yvonnesplace/survey/survey99/sexuality.htm), roughly 1,200 CDs self-described themselves as:

Heterosexual 48.4%
Heterosexual but bi-curious 23.9%
Bisexual but prefer women 10.1%
Heterosexual with homosexual experiences 7.2%
Bisexual 6.6%
Bisexual but prefer men 1.6%
Homosexual 1.5%
Homosexual with heterosexual experiences 0.7%

Now the two big caveats are:

1) It's a self-selecting sample (but any attempts at a random sample with a closeted population are problematic).

2) The survey didn't distinguish between fantasies (things you enjoy thinking of but wouldn't actually do), desires (things you'd like to do, regardless of whether you've done it, and actual behavior. Sometimes it can be hard to figure whether something is a fantasy or desire.)

OTOH, the numbers do track somewhat with other studies, although these shows a higher percentage of "hetro" CDs. However, these studies didn't provide as many categories for sexual orientation, and several used recruitment through a CD organization that specifically banned gay and bisexual members at the time of the surveys.

I think what as the big deal in the other thread, was that someone was discussing going beyond fantasies and desires to actually engaging in behavior. That's a bit different than the former two.

Incidentally Sally, I find it's always better to talk about one own's experience than try to speculate about others' -- especially those you've never met.


To say that everyone falls somewhere on the Kinsey scale as gay, straight or bi is to perpetuate the belief that there are only two genders. Since some of us fall in-between male and female or don't completely identify with either one, terms like pansexual and polyamorous are also used to further define attraction to another. To some this is more inclusive and helpful, while others see it as complicating matters more. Whatever your particular view on this, if this is how people see themselves, then I think the Kinsey scale needs to be re-defined.

The labels "hetrosexual" and "homosexual" are quite problematic with trans folks -- as I know you've all too well aware of.

IMNSHO it's a lot more useful to think in terms of gynophilic and androphilic (i.e. attracted to females or males) and of course points in between. Which makes for some interesting bedfellows (if you excuse the pun). Hetro men, lesbians, "lesbian" transwomen and "hetro" transmen in one camp, hetro women, gays, "straight" transwomen and "gay" transmen in another. Still doesn't quite solve the issue of only assuming there's only two genders....and I think there's a good argument to be made for trans-attraction being its own sexual orientation, independent of the andro-gyno spectrum.

[Kate Simmons]

Captlex had it right. The important thing is how you see yourself and not worry about "labels". Labels are for brands names and such, not people. You can only catagorize things so much. The human experience is beyond that in a lot of respects. I've learned to just be myself and everything else follows.......Ericka Kay

[Helen MC]

An interesting question. I am biologically male, and have no wish to have GRS. Sexually I am hetero and am not in any way attracted to men. I have been married and had a fairly conventional sex life although I prefered my ex-wife to take the more "dominant" role in sexual activity, for example she always went on top, she accpeted ny Cding and we shared anties and other clothing. One of the on-line quizes I filled out categorised me as an autogyne and I can identify with that. My CDing is very fetishistic and I only dress at home and do not go out en-femme. I am however a 24/7 "underdresser" and have worn panties under my male clothing since I was 12. Psychologically I have many feminine characteristics. I hate team games or any team function, detest any rough and tumble activities, do not like getting dirty, I am not an assertive person nor a leader and am not in any way competitive. I can also be a very sympathetic person and am quite happy to compromoise and come to a "modus vivendi" with others rather than try to "win" . I do not expect others to take the blame for my shortcomings but neither will I accept any blame for theirs nor of course do I expect tp be praised for their achievements.

[Ms. Donna]

The labels "hetrosexual" and "homosexual" are quite problematic with trans folks -- as I know you've all too well aware of.

Absolutely. These are very 'non-sticky' labels when applied to transpeople.


IMNSHO it's a lot more useful to think in terms of gynophilic and androphilic (i.e. attracted to females or males) and of course points in between. Which makes for some interesting bedfellows (if you excuse the pun). Hetro men, lesbians, "lesbian" transwomen and "hetro" transmen in one camp, hetro women, gays, "straight" transwomen and "gay" transmen in another. Still doesn't quite solve the issue of only assuming there's only two genders....and I think there's a good argument to be made for trans-attraction being its own sexual orientation, independent of the andro-gyno spectrum.
I personally have come to the point where who and what I find 'attractive' has very little to do with sex (body parts) and almost exclusively with gender presentation.

As a rule, I find individuals who make a traditionally feminine gender presentation to be attractive - the sex of the person does not seem to change that. Were my current marital situation to change, and I found myself in a situation with a feminine presenting male-bodied individual, my feeling now is that the 'plumbing' would be negotaible. ;)

I have also found individuals presenting as androgynous, otherwise 'trans' and some more 'butch' lesbians to be attractive as well.

What does this all 'make me'? :confused: Who the hell knows. Like I said, the labels are all very 'non-sticky'.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Teresa Amina]

Trouble with the original idea ("most...are") is that it has gone from being a liberal thought of broader acceptance to one of a new Orthodoxy- "most are, therefore you must be also". No doubt 'many' are, but I think it nearly as great a logical fallacy to say "most" as it would be to say "all".

[Robin Leigh]

I think it's fair to say that most TG people have wondered if they are bi or gay at some time during their development, especially those from the older generations.

There weren't many TG role models 40, 50 years ago. There was crossdressing in pantomime & comedy, which generally had fairly camp overtones. And there were gay people who were so flamboyant it was impossible for them to hide their queerness. It was quite common for effeminate gay guys growing up in those days to assume that they were "supposed" to crossdress, or at least dress effeminately. Conversely, if a guy was attracted to wearing girl's clothes it was natural for him to assume that they he must really be gay, since "gay guys wear dresses". Similarly, lesbians felt that they ought to try to dress like men, because the only visible lebians did so.

Fortunately, we're a bit better educated these days, but these attitudes are still around. Drag Queens are the most visible CDs, so they supply society with its standard stereotype for the CD, even though they are a very tiny tip of a very big iceberg.

I believe it takes time & interactions for any TG person to understand the difference between their gender & their sexuality, and the interplay between them. We may take longer to come to a comfortable understanding of our sexual identity than non-TG people, but by the time we get there, we tend to have learned a lot about ourselves.

When I was a young teenager I assumed I was basically hetero, with some bi tendencies (because of my CDing). In my early adult years I had quite a few enjoyable sexual experiences with other men, but these interactions gave me no true satisfaction. Being with a man doesn't really turn me on, being with a women does. Most of those guys I had sex with didn't know I CD, except for one close friend who I was involved in a few mixed threesomes with, who also had some CD inclinations.

I don't think I'd have sex again with another man. I can't rule it out entirely, but I don't think I'd be interested, unless it was as part of a threesome with a GG also participating. I don't know if I'd be physically attracted to a feminine CD - the situation hasn't arisen. Yet. :D

So that's why I describe myself as basically hetero in my profile: I've performed the experiment & found that I'm not attracted to men. Some people may think I'm bi because of my past activities, but that's their problem. IMHO, someone can't claim to be truly hetero if they haven't put themselves to the test. :devil:

Robin

[loki_uk]

I don't need to tell the world I'm hetro I just am but what annoys me is people assuming I'm gay because I wear womens clothes, or because I dress ****ty sometimes

People just think gender and sexuality are intertwined when they're not necessarily

[admirerplus GG]

I agree with EricaCD:


It's more than a little patronizing, however, to assume that "most of us" automatically fall into that category.

In my own perspective, the difference really lies in the way that people choose to express their desires. No matter what one may fantasize about, it is how one chooses to live and love that is the reality.

I always enjoy the discussions in this forum because it touches upon topics that people do not often feel comfortable to discuss in real life. With regard to how people may choose to express their sexual desires, I think there may be a long way to go before we can get the actual truth. I believe that people associate so many other values with sex. When there are no longer any taboos, guilt or shame associated with sex...then we may be able to better understand human sexuality.:2c:

[Karren H]

And who cares what poles say....I mean like everyone thinks about everything at one time or another. So if I took a pole I could word it so the the results stated something like "Most humans are right handed but most have also used their left hand to do multiple tasks"....so that makes them right handed with left handed tendencys? Hehehe

We are what we are and who cares what anyone else is...

Love Karren

[Toyah]

Most People are Nominally, Bisexual. Now what you choose…

Before someone blasts on me, google the Kinsey report. Yes, the statistics have been questioned but it is the broadest survey of human sexuality ever done. Even with it’s inaccuracies it is the closest we have for showing what sexual America is about.

I’m seeing on this site how both the CD boys and the GGs getting so bent out of shape of proclaiming how “straight” they or theirs is.

Bluntly- a good percentage of men fantasize about being with a man through certain periods, if not all of their life. And so do women about being with a woman. Let us just be honest here. A good portion of the “het” population could, can given the right chance, cross or swing. If you are
under thirty, and attended a large state school, you most probably might have…

What is the big deal? We all have desires. If you are in a relationship, you need to define between you and your beloved what is and not acceptable.

What I am referring to is that poor person (I say poor in the sense of he asked advice and all he got was people going on about marriage and cheating. There was some solid advice but I just got fed up with the thread…)

To the GGs, yes there is a good chance for a fantasy that your boy would want to get his head under another boy’s skirt. And that you would like to do the same with a girl.

We all have the right to live what ever life we desire in our mind.

It really is quite simple if you wanna do it with men thats fine but for me are repulsive sexually gawd ick not nice:thumbsdn:

[Marla S]

Hm, as important this subject is, as pointless it is at the same time.


Hi Sally,

There is a the notion that sex, gender and sexuality are stabilizing constructs: that to be a male man attracted to female women or a female woman attracted to male men is all that makes sense from a cultural standpoint.
This is absolutaly true, but is not going to the roots IMO.
It is not the cutural standpoint, it is the reproductive standpoint.
We live in a culture that is deeply rooted in Christianity.
The only reason sexuality is "allowed" is due to reproduction. Reproduction doesn't contain fun or love. The contrary, enjoying sex is seen as a necessary evil. Love has a different meaning in Christianity. Though quite a few of us may not be very religious, this way of thinking burned into our culture during the last 2000 years.

So, every kind of joy of sex is suspicious anyway, but is tolerated if it is for reproduction.
Every other kind of joy of intimacy, is simply not intended. Hence the troubel with homosexuality, bisexualtity, sexual orientation of the trans folks, sex before marriage and the like. It's a different level of intimacy which shouldn't be confused with the dominating reproductive meaning of sexuality, which we all are "trained" for.

In this sense the categories are pointless, as non-reproductive sexuality is fun and love only. It doesn't matter which gender you are or your partner, as long as the both of you enjoy it.

[JD Jade Dream GG]

Most People are Nominally, Bisexual. Now what you choose…

Before someone blasts on me, google the Kinsey report. Yes, the statistics have been questioned but it is the broadest survey of human sexuality ever done. Even with it’s inaccuracies it is the closest we have for showing what sexual America is about.

I’m seeing on this site how both the CD boys and the GGs getting so bent out of shape of proclaiming how “straight” they or theirs is.

Bluntly- a good percentage of men fantasize about being with a man through certain periods, if not all of their life. And so do women about being with a woman. Let us just be honest here. A good portion of the “het” population could, can given the right chance, cross or swing. If you are under thirty, and attended a large state school, you most probably might have…

What is the big deal? We all have desires. If you are in a relationship, you need to define between you and your beloved what is and not acceptable.

What I am referring to is that poor person (I say poor in the sense of he asked advice and all he got was people going on about marriage and cheating. There was some solid advice but I just got fed up with the thread…)

To the GGs, yes there is a good chance for a fantasy that your boy would want to get his head under another boy’s skirt. And that you would like to do the same with a girl.

We all have the right to live what ever life we desire in our mind.

I believe that I am 99.9% straight.
No matter how many times I expressed my
"I'm not a lesbian" opinion, my husband
wanted to have sex dressed as a woman.
Does that make us both lesbians?
Is this a major desire for most CD'rs?
Do you like to see yourselves as gurls
screwing girls?
I'd like to learn more on this subject.

[Calliope]

IMNSHO it's a lot more useful to think in terms of gynophilic and androphilic (i.e. attracted to females or males) and of course points in between.

Yes, points in between.

I've been contemplating the women in my life lately and I can't seem to recall any who ever owned perfume. Usually they've been breadwinners, decision-makers - my first wife proposed to me like I was the girl, one girlfriend had supershort hair & sported a 'Boy' button on a denim jacket, another lifted weights at the gym, my current wife digs war movies - and on and on. Meanwhile I've always fussed with my appearance and wrote poetry and found myself the housewife. It's a bit of an eye-opener seeing the whole gender thing on a continuum.

[cindie]

I have to say agree with the stats

But then I am bi

Lots of Love

Cindy:love:

[Phoebe Reece]

I believe that I am 99.9% straight.
No matter how many times I expressed my
"I'm not a lesbian" opinion, my husband
wanted to have sex dressed as a woman.
Does that make us both lesbians?
Is this a major desire for most CD'rs?
Do you like to see yourselves as gurls
screwing girls?
I'd like to learn more on this subject.
A husband and wife having sex with the husband dressed as a woman does not make either of you a lesbian. It's just clothing. It is however, a fantasy that many CD's have. Unfortunately, like many other fantasies, the reality of the experience is often not as good as the fantasy. The problems of bras with breast forms getting in the way and wig slipping off or garters digging into your partners legs are rarely in the fantasy, but can be very much a part of the reality. You have to be careful what you wish for. Some fantasies are better kept as just that, because when you actually carry them out for real and they don't work out - the fantasy is ruined.

[Yes I am]

Heterosexual men and homosexual women are two groups of people who just haven't found the right kind of man yet to swing them the other way. And vice-versa.