A Late Night Chat.

[Ms. Donna]

Where to begin…

Yesterday was a pretty good day: working at home, first day back to school for the girls – all in all is seemed fine. Somewhere around 6:00pm, my wife started to get annoyed with me – not sure why – possibly because I hadn’t started dinner like I said I would, but I was working. Dinner was pretty silent, but things seemed to loosen up a bit by 8:00pm. We were laying in bed watching TV when she said she wanted to turn off the TV an go to bed. Ok, no griping from me – off with the TV. By 10:15pm, it’s clear that she’s still annoyed with me – more so than before. Within several minutes, ‘the discussion’ begins.

I can not recall everything said, but that is of little importance as we have had this discussion many times in the past. It’s always the same, and seems to happen once or twice a year – like a head of steam building up and then released; only to be repeated again and again. It always starts the same way: with the comment from my wife, “I don’t want to be married to a woman…” And it always ends the same way: with me in a fetal position crying – unable to bridge the gaping chasm between my wife and I.

It’s a pointless conversation. She tells me I’m a woman – I tell her I’m not. She tells me that I want be one – I tell her I want to be me. And back and forth we go. I ask her what she wants and says “To be married to a man… Is that so much to ask?”

As much as it pains me to say it, I tell her, “No, it’s not too much to ask.” She has a right to want what she wants as much as I do – who am I to deny her that?

More back and forth. I ask her, “So it’s more important how I look than who I am?” And she tells me, “Yes.” My wife paints the world with a very limited pallet – at least as far as all this is concerned. There are no shades of grey.

What can I say? I say nothing and feel myself start to withdraw.

Some more back and forth. It’s not an argument or a fight – we’re both perversely calm. Maybe it’s because we both know where this is going. Maybe we’re simply going through the motions – reenacting a scene we know all too well.

She asks me what I want – handing me an emotionally loaded gun to point at myself. I take it, aim at my heart and pull the trigger.

I tell her, “I want us to be a family – that’s all I have ever wanted. I make, what are to me, so many concessions to be able to keep that…” She tells me that making concessions just to keep a family together is not a life. As I see it, it’s all I have.

A clean shot – through and through…

Back and forth and back. It’s 1:00am and I’m supposed to wake up at 4:30am. My head hurts, my eyes hurt – my heart hurts. All I want is for her to be happy – and somehow for me to be the person to make her so. She’ll tell me that I make her happy and that most of the time, things are good. We have a connection – something that neither of us can put into words. We both know it, feel it and acknowledge it. And there are other things about me she admires and she says make her happy. But it’s not enough – I know that. Deep down, she needs something more – and it’s something which I just can not seem to provide.

I could pretend: I could ‘be’ the husband – the ‘man’ – she needs me to be. But for how long? A month? A year? Ten years? How long before I find myself ready to take a header into oblivion? Maybe ten years of her happiness is worth the price… Who knows?

And me? I don’t need ‘happy’. I don’t think I even know what ‘happy’ is – I don’t think I’ve ever really been ‘happy’: less miserable maybe, but happy?. I gave up on happy before I ever met my wife. I need tolerable. I need manageable. If I can die saying life was ‘ok’, it would be an accomplishment. I shan’t, however, hold my breath.

And I’m in a ball, crying – with my wife asking me, “Why are you so weepy?” It’s one of the few things I really am good at. How many times are we going to do this? Each time becomes a little harder to handle because each time I feel less and less sure about what it is we have keeping us together.

She comes over to me, gives me a hug and tells me she loves me. I believe her because she’s not the type to say it just for the sake of saying it. And we both lay there, asking the other, “What are we going to do?”

We have no answers – we never do.

And as always seems to happen, we end up making love – as if the past four hours where some sort of psychotic foreplay.

I got maybe an hour and a half of sleep before getting up for work. I cried on the train going into work – cried at lunch – and cried coming home. Every time I think about this, I start crying. I really cannot deal with the roller-coaster that is my relationship. Just when I think things are good, it all seems to go to hell again.

My wife said that maybe we’re both too afraid of change – of ‘doing something’ about this. Maybe she’s right. Maybe we’re both just too afraid to do what we need to do to break the cycle – to make ourselves (well, one of us at least) happy. Maybe we both hoping the other will make the first move.

Maybe, maybe, maybe…


Twenty three years ago, I had a chance to ‘fix’ all of this but I chickened out – all because of the mistaken thought that maybe I could possibly have a life.



When I was a child, I caught a fleeting glimpse,
Out of the corner of my eye.
I turned to look but it was gone.
I can not put my finger on it now.
The child is grown, the dream is gone...

[Josephine Bonne]

Dearest Donna,
I am crying with you, can't be there with you to hold, but still can hold you and really care over time and distance.
Josephine

[Stephenie S]

Dear Donna,

Whew! That doesn't sound like fun.

But Donna, she's NOT married to a woman. You aren't a woman. You're a man. Doesn't she know the difference?

Are you talking about transitioning? Becoming a woman? Where does her idea about being married to a woman come from?

Really, now, I am not trying to be a smart aleck here. Just trying to be logical. You are, I am asuming, a man. A man that has a lot of womanly aspects to his personality. A man who wants to be able to express those feelings at times. Do you hear the repeating noun there? "A MAN WHO." A man.

I think your wife needs some manly reasurance. She wants her man. I am sure that if you can give her some of that, she can give you some of this. Compromise, a little give and take, a little less curling up in the fetal position and weeping.

I did hear you say that you talked for hours and hours. It doesn't sound like it's working though. Maybe if you just said, "OK, this is how it's gonna be.", she could handle it. Make sure that she gets her man time and in return you get to take your girl time. Give her the man time first. And taking control of the situation like that IS kinda manly isn't it? Maybe she would dig it.

Now, this all assumes that you are not talking about transitioning. If you are, forgive my assumptions. That would make it difficult to give her her "man" time at all.

Stephenie

[Sejd]

Stephenie makes a point here. If you feel that you are OK about being a man and a CD and a whole being in whatever that mean, for God's sake, shake her up a bit and put on the tool belt for a weekend. That won't hurt your Femme. But if you are unsure about being a man also, you might really have a problem. Your situation is for sure heartbreaking. I'll keep you in my thoughts and hands.
Sejd

[Stephenie S]

Donna,

OOPS! Just went up and realized where I was. We are in the Transgender/Transexual Forum, aren't we?

That puts a different light on the subject. So you ARE talking about transitioning. I don't know what to do about this. I am in the same boat. My wife is not a lesbian and she married a man, not a woman. I really don't know how we are going to resolve this issue. Her acceptance of my behavior so far is more a measure of her love for me than a measure of her joy at finding out I want to be a woman.

I don't know what to do.

I am going forward though.

I know that were I single, I would be running headlong towards transition. But I'm not single, so this all has to be tempered by my love and respect for my wife.

God, I wish I had some answers for you. If I get any, I will post 'em for sure.

Sorry about the confusion, I forgot where I was.

Lovies,
Steph

[GG Vanya]

Donna,

This has to be the most profound and poignant post I've seen yet on this forum. Your pain and grief is palpable.

I have to admit, it pushed a few buttons for me, from a former marriage. Same routine, different topic, night after night, talking into the wee hours and resolving nothing, falling asleep from exhaustion, and feeling desperate the next day due to lack of sleep and unresolved issues.

Have you tried a counselor, someone to mediate? Perhaps what you're saying isn't what she's hearing, and vice versa. Marriage is about give AND take. One party shouldn't have to do all the giving. For me, it ended in an emotional breakdown, wherein I cried for 3 days solid, before we both realized something had to give, we needed outside help.

Obviously there is a deep and abiding love between you. My only advice would be to consider a third, disinterested party. Surely, with the love you two have for each other, there is a way to move beyond this impasse, and I pray that you find it together.

[Stephenie S]

Oh yes,

What Vanya said!!!

[AmberTG]

Ms. Donna, I can feel your pain, I know what you're going through in your marrage, the scary part for me is that I could have written almost exactly the same thing you did. My wife draws the line between CDing and being Tg and wanting to change, she married a man and wants it to stay that way. She doesn't want to be with a woman, for her it has a lot to do with the sexual aspect of the change, I would be less and less able to perform as I progressed through the HRT. For myself, there are 2 choices, continue with the move toward HRT and lose the marrage, or keep the marrage and lose the self. Quite the delimma, is it not? I have no words of advice for you, I have the same situation and have not made a firm decision yet, but I still want to go the HRT route. I hope you can work it out better than I have.
Amber

[kittypw GG]

Oh Donna,
Again you have touched me. I get the impression that she is scared and unsure of what is to come. Something was turning around inside her brewing. What do you think was the trigger? Did someone say something? Did she see some unfavorable coverage of a cd/tv who committed some grievous or perverted act? Maybe a friend or aquaintance said something that made her feel uncomfortable with your current situation.

The hardest part for most of us I think is that we think that our partners relect on us. I mean, they do to a degree but ultimately we are individuals. It is so hard to be confident enough to stand for yourself. My husband works with me in the same work space. He has grown his hair long and tends to keep his nails to the longer side. This makes me uncomfortable because I can't control what others think. Will someone put two and two together? Will they feel sorry for me? Will they think I'm weird? It takes personal confidence to get to the point where you can get past those thoughts and let your partner be who they really are. I bet if under attack your wife would be able to give many examples of positive humanly atributes that you personify.

It is selfish, really, for her to want you to "look" the part of her ideal husband. It isn't about you it is about her and how she wants to present to the world at large. Intellectually we can understand that we all need to be who we feel we must be (I'll bet you she feels a lot of shame that she sinks to those levels) but emotions aren't alway rational. Maybe she just needs special reassurances and you are missing the clues or signals that she is giving off. She may not be able to articulate or translate that need in any other way but to keep bringing up the need to have a "man". Sometimes we all feel a certain uneasiness and we can't quite put our fingers on it so we revert to the old stand by reasons until we have had time to step back and really get to the bottom of why we are feeling a particular way. This is why comminucation is so very important. She knows that you are committed to your family and maybe she just needs to have you hear her fears and she really would not want you to take them so to heart. Sometimes it is just good to voice what you are thinking and have someone listen and give reasssurances of committment and love.

Thanks for sharring your feelings Donna. It helps us all feel more empathy for how our own actions affects the important individuals in our lives. I wish that I had the magic to make everything wonderful for everyone but struggeling with intellect and emotions is the burdon of human beings. My dog however could care a less how I dress as long as I pet her. To bad life is not that simple.

Take care and here are some :hugs: :hugs: to get you by.
Remember your wife does love you and is just struggeling like the rest of us. This is just a little set back.

[~Kitty GG~]

Where to begin…
Somewhere around 6:00pm, my wife started to get annoyed with me – not sure why –

It might be an idea to ask her why she started to get annoyed with you then. What it is that triggers these events.



I can not recall everything said, but that is of little importance as we have had this discussion many times in the past. It’s always the same, and seems to happen once or twice a year – like a head of steam building up and then released; only to be repeated again and again.

Unresolved issues will rebound like this. Wearing away at both of you.


I ask her what she wants and says “To be married to a man… Is that so much to ask?”

One suggestion I would make is to ask her what exactly she would want you to do to be the man she's asking for. She obviously knows your feelings on gender.. So is it that she wants you to appear as the obvious male in the relationship to the outside world? Is it that she wants you to always be manly, even in private? Is it that she just wants to be absolutely sure that you don't want to go all the way in transition? How ok is she with you being androgynous (for lack of a better term)?

Sometimes the problem is just that we haven't defined the problem. And without defining it we can't come up with solutions.



Twenty three years ago, I had a chance to ‘fix’ all of this but I chickened out – all because of the mistaken thought that maybe I could possibly have a life.

May I ask what that chance was, to "fix" all of it?

Hang in there.. you're not alone. Dee and were in a very similar situation. We were both sure we wanted to be together.. we loved eachother and enjoyed eachother's company.. but at the same time we were also hurting eachother horribly because we couldn't figure out what our issues were.. and weren't able to deal with them. We could only continue to react..

Love & Hugs
~:star:Kitty:star:~

[Marla S]

One suggestion I would make is to ask her what exactly she would want you to do to be the man she's asking for. She obviously knows your feelings on gender.. So is it that she wants you to appear as the obvious male in the relationship to the outside world? Is it that she wants you to always be manly, even in private? Is it that she just wants to be absolutely sure that you don't want to go all the way in transition? How ok is she with you being androgynous (for lack of a better term)?

Sometimes the problem is just that we haven't defined the problem. And without defining it we can't come up with solutions.

Good point here.
When I read your (Donna) touching post, the first question that poped up was: Did you ever talk about what a man is or has to be from her point of view and why ?

An elaborate and verbalized definition of "man" by her (and you ?) cold help to see things less cloudy (scary).
Having that, it is always possible to redefine a definition or to value certain aspects in a different way. Without a defintion it's a bit of a swamp.

[ChristineRenee]

That was one of the most emotionally wrenching posts I have read on this forum Donna. Being TG myself, I deeply sympathize with you and your dilemma. I understand well what your wife is experiencing too. The uncertainty of where it is all going. The fear of losing her man...how others will react to you...and to you both when you're together. It does take a lot of personal confidence in yourself...for both parties...and love and commitment to each other to make it all work. It isn't easy for any of us in this kind of relationship. The CD/TG/TS is seen as being selfish, self-centered, self-involved, "me-first"...you name it. Yet to us...it is merely about being the PERSON that we truly are...and not some idealistic vision of what our partner has for us. Our partners, in turn, want the MAN that they married...which is perfectly understandable. We ARE genetic males after all...something that tends to get lost in the discussions. For the TG...it's not about "wanting" to be a woman...to many of us it's what part of us already is inside. We just want the freedom to express it openly and not repress it for our whole life. Life is too short as it is to continue living it as only part of who you actually are.

We have to be considerate of our those in our lives who love us the most...yes. But also...those in our lives that love us...have to be understanding of all that we are. How you can decide only to love a part of a person when you are in a committed relationship? It has taken me years to get my wife to understand the woman inside her man, and that perhaps many of the very important qualities about me that she likes and fell in love with, are a direct result OF that woman inside of me. I love my wife for who she is. I have never tried to change her or expected her to change aspects of herself for me...do I deserve any less in that regard?

Anyway Donna...your story touched me deeply as it has others here on this forum. I wish I had the all answers for you...in many respects, I'm on that same journey with all of this as well. Just continue to communicate with her...let her know that her man is still there for her...and always will be, that she is not going to lose him. But don't lose perspective on who you truly are either. There is a lot more to being a man than just the outside appearance. Don't ever be made to feel embarrased or ashamed of the female inside of you and the wonderful feminine qualities that you have. It just may be a significant part of you that your wife fell in love with in the first place and even she doesn't realize it herself.

Thanks for sharing your story with us Donna. You hang in there girl...and best of luck always.:hugs:

[JenniferMint]

Ms. Donna, I can feel your pain, I know what you're going through in your marrage, the scary part for me is that I could have written almost exactly the same thing you did. My wife draws the line between CDing and being Tg and wanting to change, she married a man and wants it to stay that way. She doesn't want to be with a woman, for her it has a lot to do with the sexual aspect of the change, I would be less and less able to perform as I progressed through the HRT. For myself, there are 2 choices, continue with the move toward HRT and lose the marrage, or keep the marrage and lose the self. Quite the delimma, is it not? I have no words of advice for you, I have the same situation and have not made a firm decision yet, but I still want to go the HRT route. I hope you can work it out better than I have.
Amber

AmberTG: How would your wife feel about being married to a woman with a penis? You could do HRT but remain non-op, and hope that you remain able to perform sexually. In my case, I had my testicles removed on June 5, 2006, but I'm still capable of getting erections. It would just take more foreplay, which is probably good anyway when your sex partner is a GG.

[GypsyKaren]

Donna, I feel so bad about all of this, I hate to see you suffer about anything. What works for Kat and I is that she only sees me as a person, not as a man, which I never was, or as a woman, which genetically I'll never be. I've never understood why a woman needs a "man", why can't they just be satisfied with a kind, loving person instead? I hope you find an answer to this, maybe you can suggest she try seeing you as just a person too.

Karen

[Sarahgurl371]

Donna, very emotional post. Sorry that you had to post it. Seems that so many of us have those late night talks, with really no real solutions identified. Not even really re-identifying the problems. Just stuck in the same place, for years. Maybe fear is the thing. Maybe each is hoping the other will make a move.

I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said, or that we have talked about before. You are not alone. And we all understand.

Take care

[AmberTG]

I guess there are women who marry CDs that are ok with that but don't want it to go any farther. My wife is an example of that. She lets me "prance around" (her words) the house in my favorite clothes all I want, but she wants to be married to a man, not a TG woman. We've talked about this and I know her point of view clearly. She doesn't want to have sex with a man with breasts, and obviously, SRS would be the end of any kind of sex between us. (And the marrage) She wants to be with a man who wears boxer shorts to bed.( and everywhere else) As long as the TG thing is just a fantasy, everything's cool, but it's not so cool anymore.
If Donna's wife is like my wife, there is no good solution, only the choice of two lousy solutions.
Amber

[Ms. Donna]

Thank you all for your kind and supportive words. There are so many good points and questions - I hope I can cover most of them.

Am I talking about 'transitioning'? I don't know anymore. I suppose in some ways I already have - and in other's, not. I make an androgynous presentation - leaning one way or the other at different times. For me, I want it to lean more feminine than masculine - it's how I want to be perceived, it's how I feel. My wife recognises this and mentioned it the other night, telling me that it's obvious I want to look like a women, why can't I just be honest about it? Maybe I'm not being honest with myself?

I would so like to 'do more' with all this, to present more like a woman. About that I can be honest. I when I really examine my feelings, I find that while I still don't identify as a 'woman' per se, I don't like being read as a man. I don't know that I can explain it any better.

Which brings us to the whole notion of exactly what my wife considers a man to be and what she wants. The best explanation I can give is what she has told me: she looks at other couples - in the mall, on the street, friends and such - and she sees an interaction between them - a relationship - and she wants that. I'm sure that it's a combination of things, but a major factor is being a couple: husband and wife / man and woman. Kittypw is right in that it is largely about her, not me: "It takes personal confidence to get to the point where you can get past those thoughts and let your partner be who they really are." Perhaps it's nothing more than that on her side of this. But one can not be talked into being confident in such a way. The thing is, our friends and neighbors already know me and I suspect that were we (I) to explain it to them - just a bit - they would be "Oh, ok..." and that's all. But that is, of course, my perception of things.

"How you can decide only to love a part of a person when you are in a committed relationship?" I don't know. I think she loves 'all of me' but longs for it to be different. And when it gets to be too much... Well, we know what happens.

I can identify with your situation Amber. There was a time when my wife and I had some 'fun' with this. She had even purchased a few things for me in the past. But eight years ago, it became serious, and that all changed - it's no longer 'fun' for either of us.

I very much agree that we haven't identified the problem - at least not definitively. I don't know how much of it is based in fear and uncertainty or whatnot. What I do know is that until we do identify it, we'll continue to repeat this over and over and over.

Kitty GG asked what my chance was to fix this all. At the end of high school, I had decided to put in for early retirement. At seventeen years of age, I had had enough and could see no compelling reason to celebrate an eighteenth birthday. But somehow, I managed to convince myself that suicide wasn't a rational solution. Fast forward to now. I have two beautiful daughters who - regardless of the written legacy I might leave behind - would never understand nor accept my making such a choice for my 'life'. I no longer have the luxury of choosing suicide as a solution. I am now, as they say, here for the duration.


I've cried about this Thursday, Friday and still am today. All I have to do is think about is and it starts. It's not supposed to be like this. Hard? Maybe. Relationships take work - I get that. But like this... Nothing should be this hard.

One thing I can say is that late at night is the worst time for having discussions like this. One does not think clearly and rationally - instead, one reacts emotionally. And in the morning - in the light of day - things always seem different. My wife assures me that she loves me and that it's not always so bad. She doesn't want me to be upset or sad or forlorn - and she doesn't want to be the one to make me feel that way.

I told her that we cannot keep doing this: having the same discussion over and over and never resolving anything. I told her how every time we do, it becomes harder and harder for me to handle. I told her that I have maybe thirty years left to be alive and I cannot spend them like this. She agrees that this is no way to be and that it's not fair: to either of us.

I just feel like I'm in limbo (yes Tammy, you and I have discussed this - I really can identify with your situation) and I just don't know how long I can stay there.

I have so many good things in my life and so much I feel I'm accomplished with regards to my perspective on life. But this one thing always seems to decimate all of that. And just when I feel I've recovered and rebuilt, the wrecking ball swings through once again and I'm back at the beginning.


I'm sorry for rambling, but this is about the way my mind is running at the moment.

Love and :hugs:to all,
Donna

[AmberTG]

If there was ever a place for a rambling, emotion filled post, this would be it. I believe this forum is here for this kind of discussion, as well as others. Where else can you go to talk about this with people who can relate and understand the situation? I wish we could be more helpful with this, but I can't fix my own situation without taking some drastic steps, so I'm not in the best position to help anyone else. I do, however, understand completely what you're going through. A post-op TS friend of mine ended up going through a divorce because her wife was not willing to go that far with her. Like my wife, her wife was ok with the cross-dressing, but when it became serious, the wife couldn't handle it anymore. It does happen.
Amber

[Marla S]

Oh wow, I wish I could help ... most likely I can't. :sad:
Nevertheless

]Which brings us to the whole notion of exactly what my wife considers a man to be and what she wants. The best explanation I can give is what she has told me: she looks at other couples - in the mall, on the street, friends and such - and she sees an interaction between them - a relationship - and she wants that. I'm sure that it's a combination of things, but a major factor is being a couple: husband and wife / man and woman.
This doesn't sound to me like a elaborate definition of "man" from her perspective, and of course clashes with your wish

I don't like being read as a man.
Though this is oversimplified of course, I think freeing yourself from the anticipated classification by the society with in your mind a bit, might weaken this tension between the both of you. Don't think that defining a personality to a good part by external influences and views is a healthy thing. Of course is the judgment of other people an important part to create a personality (feadback wise), but it is not the personality, and the latter is what counts on a personal, individual level.

[joanlynn28]

Donna I directly relate to your situation, I have tried to resist the temptation and urges to wanting to transition but the need is too great to ignore anymore. I made a personal promise to myself to not seek changes for myself for I made a vowe to remain a loving husband to my wife. But after having tested the waters this is something that I know will never go away, my wife abanded me because she could see that I was not making an effort in her view about wanting to subpress my true emotions and inner feelings about myself. And I know that the odds of me being able to refrain from this are against me. I know that this may sound like I have giving up but I have discovered my true inner being and know what I want and am now free to pursue that dream. What I am trying to say is that you must have a honest heart to heart talk with your wife about the whole issue. Looking back on my own life I was that I was honest with my wife from the beginning, instead of looking back at my past as living my life as a lie. Believe me this is not something that will go away, if whatever about you is true all I can say is to decide what you can live with and without in you life. It's no easy decision, but nothing in life is easy especially with what we all share in this forum. What ever path you end up on I would just say be true to yourself for that is what really matters in this life.:2c:

[~Kitty GG~]

Seems to me that the prob here is with these late nite blow-outs that happen very occasionally.

You seem to have a pretty stable relationship for the most part but then, wham! the all nite "discussion" and cry fest.. followed closely by make-up sex.

So.. why not figure out what sets these off? In the clear light of day discuss how the discussions go. Talk about what each of you wanted to hear.. or to feel during the discussion.

It could have been as easy as this: She brought up that she's unhappy w/ the situation. And wanted you to tell her that you love her so much for being there for you. She may have needed a hug.

Practice not discussing the prob.. but simply asking "what would make you feel better right now?"

And I think that you do need to re-examine what you REALLY want for yourself and then REALLY communicate that with your wife.

Its very hard to imagine what's happening but always feel clueless and defensive. Afraid you could lose everything at any moment.. or that you'll continue to invest all of you in a relationship and some years down the track find out you're no longer wanted/needed.

communication. and self-awareness/acceptance.. I just can't stress enough how EVERYTHING else hinges on those things.

Love & Hugs
~:star:Kitty:star:~

[Ms. Donna]

It’s 11:00pm Saturday night: I’m tired – my wife wants to talk.

I tell her that discussing this at night is a bad idea, but she wants to talk now. So with the TV turned off, laying in the dark, we start – and all I can see coming is a rerun of Wednesday night’s little chat.

Like I said previously, it’s not a fight. We both lay in bed, talking into the darkness – I think maybe it’s easier that way. We don’t have to see each other’s face – to see the pain and hurt that we both feel – that we each are inflicting on the other.

It’s a different conversation this time – more practical that theoretical. She tells me that she wants to look for a job, that we need to install a keypad on the garage so the girls can let themselves into the house after school, and that we might as well cancel the bedroom furnature we have on order. This is not a talk about what to do – this is a talk about how to do it.

And we go back and forth. We discuss our love for each other, and that we’ll always be together – as friends. I don’t want ‘together as friends’ – I want ‘together as us’. I ask again why she has to see me as a ‘man’ or ‘woman’ – why not as simply a person? It is all too familiar ground. And as the discussion goes on, I resolve myself that this is what it is going to have to be.

I have no more fight left in me.

I want her to be happy, and if our separating can ultimately allow that to happen then I have no argument against it. She genuinely wants me to be happy as well and recognizes that it can never happen with things as they are now.

Kittypw was right: my wife doesn’t know where this is all going – and she needs to know – she has a right to know. The question of the hour: do I know?

A lot of painful honesty (for me) comes out in this discussion. I admit that I want to be perceived as a woman and make an effort to do so. It’s working, because my wife tells me that she thinks of me more as 'she' than 'he' - she looks at me and does not see a man anymore. And while she doesn’t say it as such, the implication to me is clear: in her eyes, I’ve transitioned.

She asks if I want I sex change. I tell her, “I don’t need a sex change to be comfortable as myself.” To which she replies, “But do you want one? If I were to be completely accepting of it, would you want it?”

“No. I don’t want that – I never have.”

She tells me she needs to see a man – not necessarily a ‘manly’ man – but someone who at least resembles a man. I take a deep breath and ask the question once again: “What do you want me to do?” She parries with, “What are you willing to do?”

More concessions… What am I willing to do?

She tells me that it need not be a lot – that all of this: the hair, the eyebrows, the clothing, the purse – it’s just too much for her. We go back and forth a bit more and I tell her, “Ok, I can make some changes.” They are changes I can make and still be true to myself. They are changes I am willing to make to keep what we have together.

And maybe most importantly, we discussed my inability to talk with her – and the rift it creates. How the fact that I’ll talk with everyone except her only separates us more and makes her suspicious and hostile – which makes me want to talk with her even less. How I don’t talk because I’m so afraid of making her mad – of rubbing this in her face even more that I already do. How this is what I do: I simply say nothing and slowly start to shut down.

This is a discussion we should have had years ago. Better late than never I suppose.

This month, we will be married for nineteen years and we have been together for twenty four. Neither of us wants the other to leave and both of us wants the other to be happy. She agrees with me that you don’t just walk away from what we have – that you at least work to find a solution before calling time on the game.

So today, things are better – not necessarily resolved – but better. We are committed to making things work - to keeping things working. I can't help but be hopeful.

Much like Sisyphus, my rock has once again rolled down the hill. Except this time, I’m not alone in setting it right.

Love and :hugs:to all,
Donna

[AmberTG]

Well, at least that's progress of sorts. Talking to her is what you need to do, even if it's uncomfortable for you, it's the only way you'll be able to work it out, one way or another. I know it's hard to open up to her, fear of her reaction, but you will only make progress that way. Hopefully, it will work out well for you.

[kittypw GG]

And maybe most importantly, we discussed my inability to talk with her – and the rift it creates. How the fact that I’ll talk with everyone except her only separates us more and makes her suspicious and hostile – which makes me want to talk with her even less. How I don’t talk because I’m so afraid of making her mad – of rubbing this in her face even more that I already do. How this is what I do: I simply say nothing and slowly start to shut down.

This is a discussion we should have had years ago. Better late than never I suppose.
Love and :hugs:to all,
Donna

So this is good Donna, you have gotten to the core of why things fall apart. Perhaps she has a little reservation about discussing her feelings to you as well. Until they become to much for her to handle and hence the late night discussions.

I suspect she feels like she is in the dark or left out of your life. As you know my hubby is an extreme introvert and doesn't really open up to anyone. At least you do have an outlet. And I can so relate to what your wife might be feeling. That is why your posts touch me so.

Now you need to proceed forward. You both need to discuss your feelings as they come up and not let them get to the point of explosion.(I know this is easier said than done) Perhaps you could both have a notebook that each would wright in daily for the other to read. You could express feelings to discuss or give appreciation for the things that you take for granted about eachother. Set aside one day a week to discuss the feelings that have been expressed. Make up some rules regarding these discussions so they don't get out of hand. Put a time limit on the discussion of a particular topic and if it gets uncomfortable agree to leave the topic alone for now to be discussed when more thought is put into it. Try to keep the emotions at a mimimum. No more late night discussions.

She sounds like she does love you a great deal Donna. She does want to make things work. Find a way. Try to listen to her and acknowledge her pain or dissapointment. She needs to do the same.

Take care Donna and let us know how things work out. I am wishing you both the very best. :hugs:

[Ms. Donna]

Saturday, 4:17am – I wake up crying. It’s not the out loud wailing kind, but the quiet, weeping kind.

More weeping – it’s what I do.

I get into these funks: almost like a balance to the good that happens to me. It’s as if I can’t give myself permission to feel too good – as if I’m not deserving of that. Yea, I’m having myself a pity party. Pathetic, ain’t it…

My wife asks what’s wrong and I tell her: I just had a dream where she left me. She reminds me that she is still very much there. And as we lay there hugging, I keep replaying things over and over, not allowing myself to feel better. I think to myself, “She’s better than I deserve and deserves better than me. What right do I have to feel good at all?”

I have come to the conclusion that transpeople have absolutely no business getting romantically involved with the cisgendered. It makes for a relationship which is doomed from the start. The problem is that when we do get involved, we are usually in the dark – or in denial – about ourselves. And by the time we accept and come to terms with all of this trans crap, it’s too late – the damage is already done and all that remains is to dodge the fallout.

And we look back and think, “If I knew that this is what would happen, I’d never have gotten into the relationship.” But is this really true? I mean, hell, we really aren’t that different from everyone else. We just want a shot at ‘normal’ and ‘happy’ – like everyone else. I saw a chance – narrow as it might have been – but a chance nonetheless to have a ‘normal’ life: or so I thought. Knowing what I know now, would I really pass that up? It’s hard to say. Intellectually, I can say “Yes”, but emotionally? I just don’t know.

We are definitely hard on ourselves – at least those of us who actually give a shit about other people. I see the pain and hurt in the lives of those close to us and know that it is, without question – our doing. We are the one’s hurting those closest to us and it’s not by choice so much as by coincidence. At some point, we realize that things are going wrong and as much as we want to stop it from happening, we find ourselves unable to do so. In some ways it’s like watching a train wreck: you see it coming – you watch it happen – and you are all but powerless to stop it.

Our loved ones are the wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time. And while I’m sure that there is some greater karmic significance to all this, like so many other things, it continues to elude me.

I’m done rambling for this morning.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Sophia Rearen]

And maybe most importantly, we discussed my inability to talk with her – and the rift it creates. How the fact that I’ll talk with everyone except her only separates us more and makes her suspicious and hostile – which makes me want to talk with her even less. How I don’t talk because I’m so afraid of making her mad – of rubbing this in her face even more that I already do. How this is what I do: I simply say nothing and slowly start to shut down.

This is a discussion we should have had years ago. Better late than never I suppose.

Donna


Bam! There it is.

Donna, let me say how sorry I am for you and yours to be going through this period. I have been there and done that with my wife as well. These coversations, to be blunt, suck big time. So, you're going to have to pick your pain. Do you wait and let her blow up semi-annually or do you engage a conversation with her daily or weekly? She wants a man huh? Seems to me, your behavior, not having conversations with her, is stereotypical man. Does she want more of that? But seriously though, I can understand and I tell you this in not a mean way because you know I care for you and your feelings. One thing you are going to have to due is suck it up! Somehow you are going to have to not cry and curl up into a little ball in the fetal position. I know how badly you must be hurting, but this cannot be helping the situation. Reacting as such is the opposite of what she wants. Perhaps, you should put your fist through a wall, just make sure its drywall only, no stud behind.:D Is that what she wants, doesn't get anymore manly than acting out ones aggression.

Donna, you have friends here to help you work out your problems. You sit, you write. You write, you think. You can basically have a conversation with yourself just by typing out your thoughts. And now, you're dreaming about the situation. I know you are one who likes to gather ones thoughts before replying. But, your wife doesn't have this and she is not you.

I liken the situation to this, your wife is a steam engine. She is sitting in gear on the track with you in her life. In front of the trains wheel is a tiny chock keeping the train from moving forward. You, are the fuel that creates the steam. As you keep fueling the steam, the steam keeps building. And as usual, the chock will hold true. The steam builds to a point and then the boiler blows. My question to you and her is, what is the chock that is her holding back. What is prohibiting her from moving forward with this relationship?

[Scotty]

Having read just the first page of this post and replies here's my thoughts from a single persons point of view.

Maybe you envy my freedom to do as I please en-femme.

I envy YOUR position for having such a caring wife.

Any woman that does what yours did, the talk, the loving session etc, seems to me to be a fine catch. You just need to find a balancing act in there.

I'd give it all up for a woman like that however, done it before for several years.......and maybe that's all I really need :)

Think hard on that one, honestly I don't think you really WANT to be where I'm at, it's got it's good points but again, I'd trade it all for a good stable non mentally ill woman ...

[cindianna_jones]

Donna,

I went through this every night with my wife after she finally found out my true desires. I too would crawl up in the fetal position and dissengage from the world.

It got so I would work late and come home to go straight to bed. She would start in and I would curl up and cry myself to sleep. It was the hardest time in my life. I don't know how I lasted as long as I did. I finally had to move out. I could not take "the discussion" every night of my life. When I moved out, I had no real plans to transition.

She served me with divorce papers. And the rest is history.

It is a painful thing that we go through. I know exactly how you feel. I know how painful it is to bear the burden for your spouse. For you do feel her pain and suffering is all your fault. Saddly, there is no easy solution to relieve the pain. I sympathize with you doll. It's the worst situation to have. You both love each other but can't see how it can ever work.

I hope you can both resolve this in some way.

Cindi