This might very well get me kicked off here!!!

[NewbieCD]

I know I have not posted for a while but i still pop on here to see what ppl say. Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity. YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world. For she is a woman and has lived that way all her life. Lets continue on the rant than it will all makes sense in the end. You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing than will later on post how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

[Marla S]

Got your point.
Woman doesn't equal feminine, though. That's easily mistaken.

[Katiegirl]

NewbieCD

I quite agree most TV/TS would not easily pass as you rightly say they don't have that feel of feminility and never will, but I think that you are being too hard on them.

This forum is here to allow TV/TS's to express things that in most cases they can't express to others around them as they are not out to the world. These outpouring range from weird to enlightening but it helps them to came to terms with themselves which in itself is a good thing.

In practice it is impossible to be dressed immaculately all the time but some here who dress occationally find it hard to appriciate this. Although I don't dress all the time I dress most days and do so in comfortable cloths that wouldn't stand out in the crowd. I however do take mental note of what women wear so I can be in line with the latest fashion as well as those cloths which are best avoided.

Thats my :2c:

[Nigella]

Some one has said what needed to be said. Why should any genetic female look as we want them to look? Why should we have this ideal image in our minds. I have not yet heard of any GG say "All men should have a six pack to rival Arnie, a brain of Stephen Hawkins, and the wallet of Rockerfeller".

Women have battled hard to shed the yoke of society, they have earned their right to wear what they want, to look like they want,and more importantly not to be told you are not fem because your make up is still in the make up box and the dress comes out on high days and holidays.

Come on people, live in the real world, look around you and tell me honestly, what is the % of women who look like some of us want them to look.

[Julogden]

I know I have not posted for a while but i still pop on here to see what ppl say. Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity. YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world. For she is a woman and has lived that way all her life. Lets continue on the rant than it will all makes sense in the end. You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing than will later on post how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

As always, just my :2c: .

I really doubt that you will be thrown out of here for that posting, there's truth in what you say, and we should be able to express opinions here as long as they aren't hateful or prejudiced, and your posting is neither.

That said, I was out-and-about in the gender community in Chicago for several years, and met about every variety of TG woman that you could imagine (and a few that you probably don't want to imagine :heehee:) , and there are some who are as naturally feminine as any genetic female, and I really don't think that takes anything away from females.

Some males are women and some females are men.

Carol

[tekla west]

Gender covers the rainbow, or at least the waterfront. Fem girls and fem boys, macho boys and macho girls. Everyone has a right to - and this is way beyond "express themself" but have as intrisic duty to become who they are as they are let to understand that.

Some people might whine in there, about this or that, their own "lack for freedom" and the aledged freedom of others, but its pish-posh. Dollars to doughnuts they pretty much whine their way through life. This is just one more place to carp about some other monumental injustice. (Cause I'm sure it ain't the only one.)

Just be yourself tonight, if you can't do that were you are, move. Hey, if you want to be a champion surfer you GOT to move near the ocean.

So I think people are about as free as they are brave enough to be and about as happy as they make up their mind to be. Hey, if they are miserable, so what? Don't read them, I don't. I'm sure some don't read me either. I'm not losing sleep over it. Because if they are miserable, that's not your fault, not my fault, its their fault. Who else has power over their life? Nuff said. Everybody gets to be themself, and if not, you did have that option.

[Billijo49504]

Even if I may not agree with you, I will defend your right to you opinion. That said, don't be surprised if some ppl agree with you opinion and some just think you are full of it....BJ

[GG Vanya]

Some one has said what needed to be said. Why should any genetic female look as we want them to look? Why should we have this ideal image in our minds. I have not yet heard of any GG say "All men should have a six pack to rival Arnie, a brain of Stephen Hawkins, and the wallet of Rockerfeller".

Women have battled hard to shed the yoke of society, they have earned their right to wear what they want, to look like they want,and more importantly not to be told you are not fem because your make up is still in the make up box and the dress comes out on high days and holidays.

Come on people, live in the real world, look around you and tell me honestly, what is the % of women who look like some of us want them to look.

Nigella and NewbieCD

The GG's have been trying to say this for months in here, but it's been like beating our heads against a brick wall. MAYBE a genetic male or two saying it will get through to them.

Thank you both!

[great gg]

my experience with my SO wanting me to wear stuff that he felt would make me more feminine, etc was to fight it all the way becuase in fact, it was how he wanted to look/feel/be before he acknowledged his cdness. he was trying to control me in order to live out his feminine side but it was killing me. his comng out has blessed both of us in freedom. i am more femme now than i ever dared to be because it is who I am and not who he wanted me to be for him to feel good.

[Priss]

I know I have not posted for a while but i still pop on here to see what ppl say. Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity. YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world. For she is a woman and has lived that way all her life. Lets continue on the rant than it will all makes sense in the end. You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing than will later on post how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

Well, I wouldn't think that these sentiments would get you kicked out either...

A lot of anti-trans GGs like to tell us, that we can never truly be women. In some ways, this is a true statement. Most of us for example were actually raised as boys, with quite different expectations on us than girls were. At this time atleast, we cannot actually bear children. As much as we like to think that women now have equality in our society, this is still far from the truth. Great strides have been made, but until women are allowed to have total control over their own destinies, no measure will even come close to equality. This view that most of us have of women, is really nothing more than a fictional characture of women. We need to open our eyes to the fact, that REAL WOMEN or those who were born genetically female, come in all shapes and sizes. It's all in the eye of the beholder, but it is a mere fantasy where real women are concerned.

IMO, this is the sheer beauty of why a transsexual can be a woman, because women do come in all shapes and sizes and colors etc... I think it's better to just be as feminine as we are, rather than try to meet a fantasy standard that we should not apply to anyone. Have fun, dress like you want to dress, but never ever consider yourself better than any other woman out there or anyone else for that matter, but don't consider yourself less either.

[noname]

You whine and complain about how woman get to wear anything they want and no one says nothing

Well yeah, double standards to tend to get people a bit upset. But yes, of course I should understand, it's different when you do it. Note to self: re-read double standard chapter and why it's all good. : plz :


Women have battled hard to shed the yoke of society, they have earned their right to wear what they want, to look like they want.

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

[GG Vanya]

Well yeah, double standards to tend to get people a bit upset. But yes, of course I should understand, it's different when you do it. Note to self: re-read double standard chapter and why it's all good. : plz :



Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

Grandmothers are women also yanno. I battled for my right to wear pants because of religious restraints. At 20, I kicked the traces, jumped the fence, and never looked back at organized religion.

I damn sure DID earn jack &*(&/! And BTW, yep, I'm a grandmother, twice over, damn proud of it, and don't consider myself to be one iota less a woman because of it. :tongueout

[Melissa Ryan]

My Lady wears what she wants and I wear what I want......No probs! Lovin life! :happy:

[RikkiOfLA]

I've been on the flip side of Great GG's post: I was the controlling in-denial-CD who was constantly telling my GF what to wear. She couldn't stand it, but couldn't understand it either and thought I was just too dependent on her. When I broke up with her (she took up smoking) it sure surprised her!

My wife (we met about 10 years later), on the other hand, appreciated my clothing suggestions. When I started CDing, the suggestions went way down, AND SHE MISSED THEM! So I had to go back to making suggestions. The upside is that we shop together a whole lot more, share the dressing room, and so on. So the suggestions are back, and since they are less from my desire than hers, they're a lot more reasonable now, I think.

Rikki


my experience with my SO wanting me to wear stuff that he felt would make me more feminine, etc was to fight it all the way becuase in fact, it was how he wanted to look/feel/be before he acknowledged his cdness. he was trying to control me in order to live out his feminine side but it was killing me. his comng out has blessed both of us in freedom. i am more femme now than i ever dared to be because it is who I am and not who he wanted me to be for him to feel good.

[GG Vanya]

Well, I wouldn't think that these sentiments would get you kicked out either...

A lot of anti-trans GGs like to tell us, that we can never truly be women. In some ways, this is a true statement. Most of us for example were actually raised as boys, with quite different expectations on us than girls were. At this time atleast, we cannot actually bear children. As much as we like to think that women now have equality in our society, this is still far from the truth. Great strides have been made, but until women are allowed to have total control over their own destinies, no measure will even come close to equality. This view that most of us have of women, is really nothing more than a fictional characture of women. We need to open our eyes to the fact, that REAL WOMEN or those who were born genetically female, come in all shapes and sizes. It's all in the eye of the beholder, but it is a mere fantasy where real women are concerned.

IMO, this is the sheer beauty of why a transsexual can be a woman, because women do come in all shapes and sizes and colors etc... I think it's better to just be as feminine as we are, rather than try to meet a fantasy standard that we should not apply to anyone. Have fun, dress like you want to dress, but never ever consider yourself better than any other woman out there or anyone else for that matter, but don't consider yourself less either.

Two points:

A GG doesn't *have* to be anti trans to make that statement. Some GG's who say this are simply realists.

As far as controlling destiny to achieve equality, I don't see the correlation. Men have yet to achieve this, unless I missed something on the news tonight?

[Bev06 GG]

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

Hi Girls,
Actually noname, thats not strictly true. I wasn't one of the original sufragettes, but I still had my battles to fight. I am 45 years old, not a grandmother yet altho I am old enough to be one. I and some of my girlfriends had a heck of a battle at school to earn the right to wear trousers. We were allowed to wear them in the winter months but not in the summer. If we protested we were labelled as trouble causers and some teachers even questioned our sexuality. I can even remember an occassion when one particular teacher took it upon himself to wage war on all the rebels and he brought little short skirts in for anyone he caught in trousers. He made me wear something that I felt so self conscious in because I hated my legs, that I never again wore trousers for fear that he humiliated me again. It wouldn't be allowed now a days. But there you go. Some of us did have to put up abit of a fight to be who we wanted to be, and as young impressionable girls paid the price by becoming objects of ridicule. Not very pleasant at that or any age.
Take care
BEVxxxx

[Sandra]

Hi Girls,
Actually noname, thats not strictly true. I wasn't one of the original sufragettes, but I still had my battles to fight. I am 45 years old, not a grandmother yet altho I am old enough to be one. I and some of my girlfriends had a heck of a battle at school to earn the right to wear trousers. We were allowed to wear them in the winter months but not in the summer. If we protested we were labelled as trouble causers and some teachers even questioned our sexuality. I can even remember an occassion when one particular teacher took it upon himself to wage war on all the rebels and he brought little short skirts in for anyone he caught in trousers. He made me wear something that I felt so self conscious in because I hated my legs, that I never again wore trousers for fear that he humiliated me again. It wouldn't be allowed now a days. But there you go. Some of us did have to put up abit of a fight to be who we wanted to be, and as young impressionable girls paid the price by becoming objects of ridicule. Not very pleasant at that or any age.
Take care
BEVxxxx

Had the same problem here at school only trousers in the winter, and when I left school and started work in a shop over 20 years ago we was not allowed to wear trousers then.

It's a pity some people on here are so jealous of what a GG can wear. Sort your own clothing and look out before you moan about and whinge about what we wear. :Angry3:

Newbiecd:

Thankyou for having the guts to start this thread and say what you really feel instead of agreeing with what others think is the norm.

[GypsyKaren]

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.


I just put in a 33 year career in a steel mill, and if you think discrimination against women still doesn't exist today, then you are sadly mistaken. I saw it constantly over those years, it was a never ending battle for the women there to get the top paying jobs, and that's even with a system based on senority only. Women were banned for years from the overhead cranes because the boss felt they went to the bathroom to much more that men. How silly is that? Sad to say, but the Glass Ceiling still exists in the workplace for women, you're kidding yourself if you think different.

Karen

[Nigella]

I just put in a 33 year career in a steel mill, and if you think discrimination against women still doesn't exist today, then you are sadly mistaken. I saw it constantly over those years, it was a never ending battle for the women there to get the top paying jobs, and that's even with a system based on senority only. Women were banned for years from the overhead cranes because the boss felt they went to the bathroom to much more that men. How silly is that? Sad to say, but the Glass Ceiling still exists in the workplace for women, you're kidding yourself if you think different.

Karen

I second this, but would add not just in the workplace. :2c:

[Kate Simmons]

Well said, Hon. What I've always said, it's the woman (or man) who makes the clothes and not vice versa. Personally, I'm preferring to look like a mixture between guy and girl lately. Ericka Kay

[sue on sunday]

You are correct in what you say my wife is the most feminin woman i know
even when she is in trousers.
But as a rare dresser ( my wife hates it ) i feel most feminin when i am dressed in the most remal clothes i can ware even down to silky underware
when most femals ware cotten when they can because of comfort.
So it is jelesy when we moan about what women can ware wether it is male or femal clothes :love:

[~Kitty GG~]

Women? More like maybe a few grandmothers. Women today in their 20's to 40's haven't battled or earned jack &*(&/. Such a statement implys that if I endure enough prosecution for wearing what I want, I can enjoy the same freedom women do today. Not true.

Whoops, there I go again, telling it like it is. I forgot how much it's not liked. oh that's right re-read that double standard chapter again.

I dunno how much prosecution you have to endure.. but I do know that even if you endure persecution it won't get you anywhere in life.

The women who came before me and did such a good job didn't endure the persecution or even the rules of society. The stood up to them and they changed how things are.

I'm lucky enough to live in the world that they changed. That you don't think I've earned this.. your problem dude.

That the cds of the future will still be living with the same prejudices as you are.. well again that's your prob dude. You could be the generation that liberates men and/or cds.

Or you can just whine and say offencive things about us GGs.

~:star:Kitty:star:~

[suzy]

I just have one question of you.....

10-9???

[Calliope]

The double standard bit about 'women wearing men's clothes' is a tempting but imperfect analogy; women wanted the pants to 'ride horses and build houses' - theirs has been a liberation project. CDs want a very different sort of liberation - a freedom of fantasy.

Compounding the problem with achieving a symmetry of experience, as women have simplified their appearance (less makeup, jeans, etc.), CDs remain frozen in an earlier era's style (dresses, makeup, heels) because their quest to resist biological limitations has received no commensurate liberation. This is a bit of a wall, alas, but fortunately there is a tenuous middle ground: both GGs and CDs want the power to pick and choose between genders.

In this sense, each of us are 'montage artists' of a sort - and we are moving society as a whole towards a less restrictive future.

GGs are tempted to smirk at the sight of men 'trying to be women' (better said as men trying to find their feminine souls) just as men have been smirking at the sight of GGs 'trying to be men' (better said as trying to achieve equal rights).

Compounding the problem is that CDing has its own particular evolution ... and the early awkward age is ridiculously sexualized. Staying in the closet eternalizes 'puberty.'

Does any of this make sense to anyone?

[Kimberley]

Ignoring the issue of "passing", I think Karen has perhaps been most accurate in this assessment. The rights of people, not just women need to be addressed.

Women have come a long way and still have a long way to go for true equality, and yes there are some here on both sides of the gender wall who dont see their own prejudices in this, more than a few to be sure.

Men are equally discriminated against like it or not but for different reasons. The rise to power in the workplace is littered with the bodies of many men, so please stop the holier than thou accusations. Outside of work there are many barriers to men as well. Face it gender barriers exist everywhere.

Transgendered people are definitely the most discriminated against in terms of gender, and like it or not, the LGB community is VERY guilty of this. (In case you missed it, read the link to the SOVO article Malrena Dahlstrom posted for a prime example.) Of course the glaring example is Gypsy Karen's battles.

We all have our own prejudices of one sort or another and we need to make sure our brains are loaded before shooting off our mouths.

Kimberley

[Holly O'Niell]

In reply to:-

"Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity".

If my views here are skewed, then it could be true to say that it also true of countless millions of women. Not all, but the vast majority dream of their wedding day where they can live out the vision they have probably had since early childhood ie.- spending their wedding day dressed as I described in my earlier thread. Never known any bride or bridesmaid to turn up at their wedding in coveralls. (Never been to Kentucky though). They all dress as I descibed for a reason - to achieve that vision. At the point of typing, I can't recall anyone saying in the thread they were more feminine in what I was descibing.

"YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world".

I think every crossdresser here would openly admit and agree to that statement. So nothing new there then.

how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up

Can't remember saying anything regarding criticising my wifes choice of clothes. To be honest, she'd look good in a welders mask.


"if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed".

Why on earth would your wife want to doll up and look like Donna Reed?
Bet I know - because she wants to feel as feminine as possible maybe.

Thank you for your opinion, I value it as I do any other opinion on here, even if I do not agree. Freedoms are a valuble thing, embrace them, treasure them, and allow them to flourish.
Please feel free to pm me.
Holly

[NewbieCD]

What for?? having a voice?? Don't think so ;)

I thought that is might piss a few ppl off but i felt it needed to be said.

[NewbieCD]

In reply to:-

"Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity".

If my views here are skewed, then it could be true to say that it also true of countless millions of women. Not all, but the vast majority dream of their wedding day where they can live out the vision they have probably had since early childhood ie.- spending their wedding day dressed as I described in my earlier thread. Never known any bride or bridesmaid to turn up at their wedding in coveralls. (Never been to Kentucky though). They all dress as I descibed for a reason - to achieve that vision. At the point of typing, I can't recall anyone saying in the thread they were more feminine in what I was descibing.

"YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world".

I think every crossdresser here would openly admit and agree to that statement. So nothing new there then.

how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up

Can't remember saying anything regarding criticising my wifes choice of clothes. To be honest, she'd look good in a welders mask.


"if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed".

Why on earth would your wife want to doll up and look like Donna Reed?
Bet I know - because she wants to feel as feminine as possible maybe.

Thank you for your opinion, I value it as I do any other opinion on here, even if I do not agree. Freedoms are a valuble thing, embrace them, treasure them, and allow them to flourish.
Please feel free to pm me.
Holly

This is where i thought this post would go ppl geting on the defensive and i do not happen to agree with you I do not think a wife dresses up on her wedding day to the nines to feel like a girl i think it is cause she wants to be as beautiful as she can on the most important day of her life the day she dreamed of since childhood.
Also as far as the Donna Reed thing goes me wife has much better fashion and make up skills it was a visilization that i thought you all could see in your head I do think that it is important for them to pamper than selves and go all out sometimes like it is for a man to wear his nicest suit with well groomed hair looking GQ because it is nice to be at your best but i don't think it makes us feel manlier or the more girly.

[CDsWifey GG]

In reply to:-

"Boy are there some views here that are getting skewed. First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity".

If my views here are skewed, then it could be true to say that it also true of countless millions of women. Not all, but the vast majority dream of their wedding day where they can live out the vision they have probably had since early childhood ie.- spending their wedding day dressed as I described in my earlier thread. Never known any bride or bridesmaid to turn up at their wedding in coveralls. (Never been to Kentucky though). They all dress as I descibed for a reason - to achieve that vision. At the point of typing, I can't recall anyone saying in the thread they were more feminine in what I was descibing.

"YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world".

I think every crossdresser here would openly admit and agree to that statement. So nothing new there then.

how you hate that you wife only wears clothes that she is comfortable in aren't you doing what you are blaming the world for on a smaller scale judging you wife or SO for what they wear or do not wear and how they don't pour feminity into there clothes and make up

Can't remember saying anything regarding criticising my wifes choice of clothes. To be honest, she'd look good in a welders mask.


"if you wanna dress that is fine but guess what here is something that i do not think a lot of you have realized is that clothes do don't make a woman feminine a woman is just that she is feminine and i can tell you if I wanted to be a girl than what i would shot for is to be lik my wife at any point and time not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed".

Why on earth would your wife want to doll up and look like Donna Reed?
Bet I know - because she wants to feel as feminine as possible maybe.

Thank you for your opinion, I value it as I do any other opinion on here, even if I do not agree. Freedoms are a valuble thing, embrace them, treasure them, and allow them to flourish.
Please feel free to pm me.
Holly

Ok I have tried to stay out of this but I do have to say something about the wedding bit, as I just had my own two months ago. I have dreamed of my wedding day since early childhood, I have dreamed of an enduring love and lasting bond and the celebration of that bond. I have not dreamed of dressing like a cupcake or spending all of my life savings on an outfit I would wear for one day then bitch about it taking up closet space for the next thirty years. My mother is from KY and did get married in blue jeans and flip flops and has never regretted it in 30 years of happy marriage. Myself, I went through a few months of everyone telling me what I "should" wear and what I "should" spend and a million and one traditions I never would have thought of much less cared about before I ignored them all and got married in a twenty-nine dollar summer dress I was comfortable in, and I felt every bit the woman and just as proud to be declaring my love to my husband before God. (and I actually get to wear it again :eek: ) Not for everyone, but just my story. I am just as much woman in shorts and a tank top or jeans and a t-shirt as I am in a dress and heels and I personally think stockings and underwire bras are an invention of the devil :heehee: I do understand what my husband is trying to say, I whole-heartedly agree and am proud of him for having the nerve to say what I usually am trying so hard to be nice I don't say. I guess I dont have much more to say at the moment, except maybe kiss my ass no name you have no idea what battles women face every day and never will no matter how many stillettos you buy:Angry3: sorry couldnt stop that one :D

[NewbieCD]

[QUOTE=Holly O'Niell;558287]In reply to:-

"YOU know what i like to dress and no matter how well I can pass i know that my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world".

I think every crossdresser here would openly admit and agree to that statement. So nothing new there then.

Really than why is there so many post on her on how CDers because they dress up come so much or closer to femininity than the GG's on this board? Makes you think how many on here really know what femininity is. I would not say i got a handle on things cause i can never fully understand woman (you know what sometimes i don't think they can either) but i know that it is more than heels, dresses, and eye shadow. Also if this does not aplly to you than why not just ignore it.

[Holly O'Niell]

"This is where i thought this post would go ppl geting on the defensive and i do not happen to agree with you I do not think a wife dresses up on her wedding day to the nines to feel like a girl i think it is cause she wants to be as beautiful as she can on the most important day of her life the day she dreamed of since childhood".

Are you saying I am not allowed to defend my original post? The second half of your sentence seems to kinda contradict your earlier statement and agree with mine.

"Also as far as the Donna Reed thing goes me wife has much better fashion and make up skills it was a visilization that i thought you all could see in your head I do think that it is important for them to pamper than selves and go all out".

Don't know who Donna Reed is, but,
obviously this 'visualisation' works for you (as mine works for me), why would you visualise your wife as someone who has less femimine aspects, dress sense etc. than your wife posesses?

Holly.

[NewbieCD]

"This is where i thought this post would go ppl geting on the defensive and i do not happen to agree with you I do not think a wife dresses up on her wedding day to the nines to feel like a girl i think it is cause she wants to be as beautiful as she can on the most important day of her life the day she dreamed of since childhood".

Are you saying I am not allowed to defend my original post? The second half of your sentence seems to kinda contradict your earlier statement and agree with mine.

"Also as far as the Donna Reed thing goes me wife has much better fashion and make up skills it was a visilization that i thought you all could see in your head I do think that it is important for them to pamper than selves and go all out".

Don't know who Donna Reed is, but,
obviously this 'visualisation' works for you (as mine works for me), why would you visualise your wife as someone who has less femimine aspects, dress sense etc. than your wife posesses?

Holly.
Do you even know what you are trying to say now or are you at the nitpicking stage of this whole thing i have made it clear like it or not
agree with it or not that is your decision but i am not going to argue about it.

[Calliope]

[...] got married in a twenty-nine dollar summer dress I was comfortable in, and I felt every bit the woman [...]

Been to a few hippie weddings in my time (one of them was even mine) and the above pretty well describes the bride's outfit and state of mind. (Bonus: big relief to all the ffamily & friends who can attire themselves normally.)

[NewbieCD]

Been to a few hippie weddings in my time (one of them was even mine) and the above pretty well describes the bride's outfit and state of mind. (Bonus: big relief to all the ffamily & friends who can attire themselves normally.)

Yeah i hate peguin suits with a passion so when my wife decided to do a casual wedding i was all for it and yes it was comfortable and made it alot easier and memorable in a good way.

[Holly O'Niell]

"Really than why is there so many post on her on how CDers because they dress up come so much or closer to femininity than the GG's on this board"?
Don't really know that one, try asking them.

" Also if this does not aplly to you than why not just ignore it".

I could ask you the same regarding the original thread.

For Newbies Wife GG.
From what you said in your post I'm 100% sure your right. But you obviously have issues with some items of feminine clothing. This is your right as it is also everyone else's right to think otherwise, whether it be a 'cupcake' dress or summer dress.
Thanks for the banter.
Holly.

[Holly O'Niell]

Do you even know what you are trying to say now or are you at the nitpicking stage of this whole thing i have made it clear like it or not
agree with it or not that is your decision but i am not going to argue about it.

Then why respond with a quote!!!!
Still quite new here and I've been wanting to start a thread that would create a little reaction and response, never in a million years thought it would be about thet.
Thanks again.
Holly.

[CDsWifey GG]

Then why respond with a quote!!!!
Still quite new here and I've been wanting to start a thread that would create a little reaction and response, never in a million years thought it would be about thet.
Thanks again.
Holly.
Ok I have talked to hubby and neither of us know what thread you are referring to , actually when he created this one it was NOT in response to ANY one thread but in response to the majority of attitudes we have seen on here since joining in general. Apparently neither of us got round to your thread yet but maybe we will look into it later...

[Holly O'Niell]

Ok I have talked to hubby and neither of us know what thread you are referring to , actually when he created this one it was NOT in response to ANY one thread but in response to the majority of attitudes we have seen on here since joining in general. Apparently neither of us got round to your thread yet but maybe we will look into it later...
In your opening sentence on this thread, you state about a recent thread going on about 'the perfect vision of femininty. That is not a statement often used, even on this forum. You or hubby had obviously read it along with the responses , coupled with other recent threads, to have come up with a thread such as the one you created here.
(see link below - hope I've linked it correctly)
Thanks again for your responses,
Holly.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39579

[NewbieCD]

In your opening sentence on this thread, you state about a recent thread going on about 'the perfect vision of femininty. That is not a statement often used, even on this forum. You or hubby had obviously read it along with the responses , coupled with other recent threads, to have come up with a thread such as the one you created here.
(see link below - hope I've linked it correctly)
Thanks again for your responses,
Holly.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39579

Look i have never seen this thread till you linked it to me so this is not about you and you can relax.

[CDsWifey GG]

In your opening sentence on this thread, you state about a recent thread going on about 'the perfect vision of femininty. That is not a statement often used, even on this forum. You or hubby had obviously read it along with the responses , coupled with other recent threads, to have come up with a thread such as the one you created here.
(see link below - hope I've linked it correctly)
Thanks again for your responses,
Holly.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39579


actually it says perfect womans display of femininity at the top of this thread which is referred to a LOT on this forum but no big deal I think I can see where you would assume they were related

[ReginaK]

The problem arises from people believing that femininity and masculinity are physical traits you are born with or something that you wear when it's really neither.

Being born a woman doesn't always make you more feminine than someone who wasn't. Just as a man wearing dress isn't more feminine than a woman who isn't.

It there is anything we can learn from transsexuals, it's that femininity and masculinity are conditions of the mind, not exclusive to the plumbing you're born with or the clothes you wear.

[Jennaie]

not just when she is dolled like Donna Reed.

Your wife likes to dress up like Donna Reed? :happy:

[Calliope]

http://donnareed.org/images/detail/dr_stand.gif

'Dolled up'? Except for the constricting scarf and heels, I'd say Donna Reed was pretty down to earth. OK by me.

[NewbieCD]

http://donnareed.org/images/detail/dr_stand.gif

'Dolled up'? Except for the constricting scarf and heels, I'd say Donna Reed was pretty down to earth. OK by me.

You never saw her on tv or in magizines where her hair clothes or her make up was a slight bit off in any way.

[CDsWifey GG]

okay will ppl plz focus on the point of the thread if I tell you I do NOT dress like Donna Reed ?:heehee: Not that I wouldnt have killed for her waistline, but that stuff looked really uncomfortable LOL. It was an example :D

[KarenXDR]

...you said it all in your first post. Elegantly, perceptively and with a flare for words tha suggests you run against George W and if from the UK, I understand there's a vacancy coming up there soon.

Thanks

Lipstick kisses

Karen

[GG Vanya]

okay will ppl plz focus on the point of the thread if I tell you I do NOT dress like Donna Reed ?:heehee: Not that I wouldnt have killed for her waistline, but that stuff looked really uncomfortable LOL. It was an example :D

Diversionary tactics my dear. :D Reminds me of a bird local to this area, called the "killdee". If you come near a nesting female (these birds nest on the ground) she begins to flop across the ground as if she's injured, leading you further and further away from her nest of fledgelings.

In many cases here, if the initial topic hits too close to home or makes one uncomfortable to discuss the killdee syndrome kicks in.:tongueout

[tekla west]

Of course you never saw Donna Reed that way because she was a professional actress, a star at that - for whom image is everything. That too was also the late 50s and early 60s when the studio system and the attendant PR flacks had a lot more control over the public image- so even if Donna Reed HAD been busted DUI going to In 'N Out Burgers in a $500,000 car you would have never seen it, those photos would have been 'lost' somewhere deep in the LAPD. Oh yeah, she did look that good, what do you think they get paid for? And in a very 1950s, suburban way, Donna Reed is all that, and even more.

That being said, I always thought that Donna Reed - in character - was a lot more down-to-earth, and a lot more in control than say June Cleaver. And more level headed then Lucy. (Of course, in real life Lucy was not some dizzy dame, she was a big time player who ran the first real independent studio Desilu Productions, and was a mogul in her day - in her real life, she did not want to 'be in the show' she wasn't content unless she also OWNED the show.)

But remember the fifties WERE a lot less casual than today's culture. Men actually DID eat dinner with a coat and tie on at home. It was a culture devoted to what OUGHT to be rather than what came later - a culture of what I want it to be. That is huge difference. Women did dress like that on a day to day basis, so of course Donna Reed wore a dress everyday, pants would not be OK for women in public till the late 60s for the most part.

For every girl who wants to get married looking like she is about to hit the rapids on a river trip there are 10 who once in their life is going to spend money and dress like there is no tomorrow. I have a friend of mine who just spent time working on a wedding in SoCal that cost $12 million total, I'm sure the dress was some serious money. Year in and year out the largest selling dress for Barbie is a wedding dress. That I think is a key indication.

And, what is the situation? Are you going out to work in the garden to take the trash out, or are you hitting some cool nightclub, stepping out with the girls and 'Making a Statement." I work at such places and where I'm sure that the girls have baggy sweatpants that they were are home, I'm just as sure they they spent hours getting ready to go out to the club. Dressed to KILL!! The sure don't want their girlfriends looking better then they do. And though the stagehands dress like people doing manual labor no matter what gender, the people who work the front of house, the ushers and cocktail persons, they do dress up, big time. For some of them its the fun part of the job, getting to style in the theatre a few times a week.

So, yes, those are Jimmy Cho shoes, that is a Louis Vitton handbag, the dress did come from Emporio Armani or Bebe's and they are NOT wearing the 3 for $7 baggy cotton panties either. And that is ONE model of being female, and there are a lot of women who do that and like it. Perhaps not all the time, but enough. Its what makes the constant trips to the gym worth it, what makes it OK to have skipped all the deserts, the extra portions so that when they do squeeze into that size 6 stretch dress, that they do look drop dead gorgeous. Having paid the price, they now get the reward.

We see groups of three or more women walk into the club like they OWN the place and every guy who isn't gay turns their head - because we do love to watch them strut - and they casually turn their heads and smile, and wow, its show-time. And you can be sure they are not going to get picked up by some guy with a gut hanging over pants that come up over his sox (which are white) and some T-shirt that looks like it should have been burned years ago.

Or at the opening of the Opera the other night. Designer dresses, real jewelry, everyone looking good, guy in tux (and you might not like "the penguin suits" but if you can wear one right, girls do love it). It makes the guy look good, but does not distract from them, which is the point. That high fashion, ultra glamour is ANOTHER model of being female. Many can do both.

Myself, I find that women in the workout gear, with good arms and shoulders, sweat pouring out of them after lifting weights and training is also very sexy. Tres Hot. The women i work with are in awesome shape. Some might not like that look, the buff shoulders and arms, tight tops, tattoos and all that, well that is STILL YET one more model of what being female is, or can be in this day and age.

You state that "First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity." Well, there is a wide range of 'decked out' means. Night at the opera, KlubKid, gym goddess. I've never said I'm a better example, not even close - and I tend to scoff at such claims. However I do know some CDs who do a darn good job, and depending to their are being compared to, perhaps they are better examples. For example: "my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world" and while I'm sure that is true for you, that is but a single case example.

I mean - and BTW, this is the kind of statement that does raise the hackles around here because it is a real comparison, but what the heck - I could put you in all your guyness next to some of the women I work with, and they have macho all over you, and do it without losing their femininity. But in the "stereotypical" guy stuff they are out doing traditional crafts work with heavy tools, working heavy equipment, doing 'traditional male work" hard core physical manual labor stuff. They are in top physical shape, muscles toned and buff, lots of flexibility, and honey, I can see by your picture that they would flat out out work your best "full day effort" in less than a half an hour. Given a full 16 hour day like we sometimes work, I'm pretty sure that much work in a day would flat out kill you.

Does that make them less fem, or more male then you? Just because they can out work you, are stronger than you, in better physical condition, are top notch mechanics, excellent carpenters, ride big motorcycles, and the best painters you've ever met does not make them any less the girl. But it changes the standard of macho to be sure.

But lets look at another example. I know of one CD in here, and myself who were/are stay at home parents. Does that make us less male? Because we can excel at those activities that have been "traditional" female, at being nurturing, caring, loving, and very patient - in being good moms, we are still guys. And it does not take a huge look around the world to find a lot of women who should be kept away from all kids - especially their own. They are manipulative, aggressive, and self-centered and will not make a good caregiver. I think of the men I've known who have done this are far more in touch with things that are considered "girl", much like the girls I work with are very in touch with doing all that stuff that is considered male. It does not change what they are, but it sure does change WHO they are.'

There is not ONE model, but several - for men, for women, for both. People can get close to one or two, or more. Some don't ever come close to any of them, in some cases because they are unique, in other cases because they are not much of anything. You can be more of, or less than, it depends more on what is between your ears and less about what is between your legs.

[Jennaie]

Of course you never saw Donna Reed that way because she was a professional actress, a star at that - for whom image is everything. That too was also the late 50s and early 60s when the studio system and the attendant PR flacks had a lot more control over the public image- so even if Donna Reed HAD been busted DUI going to In 'N Out Burgers in a $500,000 car you would have never seen it, those photos would have been 'lost' somewhere deep in the LAPD. Oh yeah, she did look that good, what do you think they get paid for? And in a very 1950s, suburban way, Donna Reed is all that, and even more.

That being said, I always thought that Donna Reed - in character - was a lot more down-to-earth, and a lot more in control than say June Cleaver. And more level headed then Lucy. (Of course, in real life Lucy was not some dizzy dame, she was a big time player who ran the first real independent studio Desilu Productions, and was a mogul in her day - in her real life, she did not want to 'be in the show' she wasn't content unless she also OWNED the show.)

But remember the fifties WERE a lot less casual than today's culture. Men actually DID eat dinner with a coat and tie on at home. It was a culture devoted to what OUGHT to be rather than what came later - a culture of what I want it to be. That is huge difference. Women did dress like that on a day to day basis, so of course Donna Reed wore a dress everyday, pants would not be OK for women in public till the late 60s for the most part.

For every girl who wants to get married looking like she is about to hit the rapids on a river trip there are 10 who once in their life is going to spend money and dress like there is no tomorrow. I have a friend of mine who just spent time working on a wedding in SoCal that cost $12 million total, I'm sure the dress was some serious money. Year in and year out the largest selling dress for Barbie is a wedding dress. That I think is a key indication.

And, what is the situation? Are you going out to work in the garden to take the trash out, or are you hitting some cool nightclub, stepping out with the girls and 'Making a Statement." I work at such places and where I'm sure that the girls have baggy sweatpants that they were are home, I'm just as sure they they spent hours getting ready to go out to the club. Dressed to KILL!! The sure don't want their girlfriends looking better then they do. And though the stagehands dress like people doing manual labor no matter what gender, the people who work the front of house, the ushers and cocktail persons, they do dress up, big time. For some of them its the fun part of the job, getting to style in the theatre a few times a week.

So, yes, those are Jimmy Cho shoes, that is a Louis Vitton handbag, the dress did come from Emporio Armani or Bebe's and they are NOT wearing the 3 for $7 baggy cotton panties either. And that is ONE model of being female, and there are a lot of women who do that and like it. Perhaps not all the time, but enough. Its what makes the constant trips to the gym worth it, what makes it OK to have skipped all the deserts, the extra portions so that when they do squeeze into that size 6 stretch dress, that they do look drop dead gorgeous. Having paid the price, they now get the reward.

We see groups of three or more women walk into the club like they OWN the place and every guy who isn't gay turns their head - because we do love to watch them strut - and they casually turn their heads and smile, and wow, its show-time. And you can be sure they are not going to get picked up by some guy with a gut hanging over pants that come up over his sox (which are white) and some T-shirt that looks like it should have been burned years ago.

Or at the opening of the Opera the other night. Designer dresses, real jewelry, everyone looking good, guy in tux (and you might not like "the penguin suits" but if you can wear one right, girls do love it). It makes the guy look good, but does not distract from them, which is the point. That high fashion, ultra glamour is ANOTHER model of being female. Many can do both.

Myself, I find that women in the workout gear, with good arms and shoulders, sweat pouring out of them after lifting weights and training is also very sexy. Tres Hot. The women i work with are in awesome shape. Some might not like that look, the buff shoulders and arms, tight tops, tattoos and all that, well that is STILL YET one more model of what being female is, or can be in this day and age.

You state that "First the perfect woman display of femininity is of a woman all decked out in her best but then you go on to say that you all are better examples of femininity." Well, there is a wide range of 'decked out' means. Night at the opera, KlubKid, gym goddess. I've never said I'm a better example, not even close - and I tend to scoff at such claims. However I do know some CDs who do a darn good job, and depending to their are being compared to, perhaps they are better examples. For example: "my wife in her everyday clothes exudes more feminism than I can portray with all the best make up and wigs in the world" and while I'm sure that is true for you, that is but a single case example.

I mean - and BTW, this is the kind of statement that does raise the hackles around here because it is a real comparison, but what the heck - I could put you in all your guyness next to some of the women I work with, and they have macho all over you, and do it without losing their femininity. But in the "stereotypical" guy stuff they are out doing traditional crafts work with heavy tools, working heavy equipment, doing 'traditional male work" hard core physical manual labor stuff. They are in top physical shape, muscles toned and buff, lots of flexibility, and honey, I can see by your picture that they would flat out out work your best "full day effort" in less than a half an hour. Given a full 16 hour day like we sometimes work, I'm pretty sure that much work in a day would flat out kill you.

Does that make them less fem, or more male then you? Just because they can out work you, are stronger than you, in better physical condition, are top notch mechanics, excellent carpenters, ride big motorcycles, and the best painters you've ever met does not make them any less the girl. But it changes the standard of macho to be sure.

But lets look at another example. I know of one CD in here, and myself who were/are stay at home parents. Does that make us less male? Because we can excel at those activities that have been "traditional" female, at being nurturing, caring, loving, and very patient - in being good moms, we are still guys. And it does not take a huge look around the world to find a lot of women who should be kept away from all kids - especially their own. They are manipulative, aggressive, and self-centered and will not make a good caregiver. I think of the men I've known who have done this are far more in touch with things that are considered "girl", much like the girls I work with are very in touch with doing all that stuff that is considered male. It does not change what they are, but it sure does change WHO they are.'

There is not ONE model, but several - for men, for women, for both. People can get close to one or two, or more. Some don't ever come close to any of them, in some cases because they are unique, in other cases because they are not much of anything. You can be more of, or less than, it depends more on what is between your ears and less about what is between your legs.


So what your saying is, were all different?:happy:

[tekla west]

Well the quick version is that out here in California, if you want to be a girl you can never be too rich, too thin or too well dressed. And the same for boys. Being strong, in shape, and skilled are all just a bonus. But that's just us.

[noname]

In responce to those who commented on how I mentioned that women today have not fought for battled for anything.

I believe I am correct in what I am saying regarding women in their 40's and below. Really, they didn't fight for anything, it was something they just have and taken for granted. If they had fought for the right to wear pants, they certainly would stand behind guys who wish to dress as they please. But, often the younger ones can be the biggest ones to ridicule. I don't this fact can be denied.

As far as the 50+ crowd I can only guess what it was like. Somehow I doubt people were looking at you like lesbians with strange stares. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. You might have been seen as a trouble maker, but not a wierdo or freak. Correct me if this is incorrect. I do know that in places women in the 50's were arrested for wearing pants.

As for the organized religon comment. I do know what you are talking about. There are churches out there where women do not wear pants EVER. This is true even today, and it is not acceptable and would subject a female in the same way a man in a dress would.

I was basically trying to relay that mens current situation can not be equated to an initiation, or something one earns, as was implied. Today's women did not fight for anything, for if they had, we should never hear a word nor get a second look from a single one of them.

[tekla west]

How can you make such a blanket statement? Just as there are different models and styles of being a girl or a boy, I can assure you that many women under 40 did fight, and are fighting. So are men. I don't think you understand what they fought for, nor what they really got. You are all hung up on clothing when my understanding is that most of that was - and is - about finance, not fashion.

[noname]

Ah finance. Let's talk about that. I'm pretty certain this glass ceiling applies just as much to me as any women. In fact I'd say it's reveresed, as someone who has been seeking work for over a half a year, on almost all apps I have to check if I am a minority or female. What that really is, is a strike against me. Society should be so ashamed for such blantant discrimination on job applications. I'm pretty certain if I was female I would have a job by now.

[Satrana]

I was basically trying to relay that mens current situation can not be equated to an initiation, or something one earns, as was implied. Today's women did not fight for anything, for if they had, we should never hear a word nor get a second look from a single one of them.

I have to admit I am also confused about this argument from the GGs that we have to fight for the same rights just as women did. I understand this argument if both CDs and GGs had the same common "enemy" ie macho men etc, but in our case we spend more time pitching our cause to women (ie our SOs) than we do to men.

Why do CDs also have to take the good fight against women? If women themselves have only recently won their own fight against gender restrictions, why are they not more receptive to our cause? Where did all the empathy disappear to? Why would women not automatically extend their own newly won gender freedom to men?

This is too strong an analogy, but it is like one generation of slaves winning their own freedom only to buy slaves for themselves. Do the second generation of slaves really need to battle for freedom against their former slave masters? Why is there a need to re-fight battles for each section of the population instead of learning from each other and applying universal rights. Hope you see the point I am aiming for.

[ReginaK]

This is too strong an analogy, but it is like one generation of slaves winning their own freedom only to buy slaves for themselves. Do the second generation of slaves really need to battle for freedom against their former slave masters? Why is there a need to re-fight battles for each section of the population instead of learning from each other and applying universal rights. Hope you see the point I am aiming for.

It's a case of the oppressed becoming the oppressors.

It happens everytime. Whenever one group earns their freedom, they jump on the bandwagon with the majority to oppress the next minority in line.

[Tiana]

i think its time men and women stopped being concerned with what each other wears. we are all trying to be ourselves and as men or women just trying to be accepted in todays society. we are only talking about clothes and appearance after all.
you are right about women being more feminine they are natural at it whereas we cders have a more 'false' approach to it but so long as you treat people with respect thats all that really matters. i've seen some pretty unfeminine women over the years more masculine than i am in some ways and i do find alot (not all) would ridicule the cder, i'm afraid in my experience intellegent and feminine women are the ones who 'accept' cders more easily

[CDsWifey GG]

If women themselves have only recently won their own fight against gender restrictions, why are they not more receptive to our cause? Where did all the empathy disappear to? Why would women not automatically extend their own newly won gender freedom to men?

Some of us are receptive...some of us are trying to be empathetic, and help the cause in anyway we can...unfortunately many CDers dont want a cause or to put forth any real effort, just the right to go online and complain about how they got a rough deal, and its...his fault, no her fault, no its women let's blame the women they expect too much and don't give enough. It is not the victims fault they are oppressed, persecuted, enslaved whatever, but one must accept at least partial responsibility for their own situation if they don't even try to put up a fight. I for one intend to continue to support the CDing community as long as I can in any way I can regardless of what happens in hubby's life. I want to continue to learn and grow and educate others, even if he decides tomorrow it was a passing phase and he is over it (not likely) . But sometimes I do get a little baffled when people say in the same post both a.women can wear what they want without being judged and b. She doesnt dress like a real woman and doesnt even wear makeup :eek: I do have to take a day off here and there when I read too many " It just isn't fair!" threads from ppl making very little effort to improve their own situations, and I do get fed up from ppl that claim their wife is sooo unsupportive when Ive just finished reading posts where the CDing husband lied, cheated, stole money, snuck around, then ran her into the ground on the net. Oh but why cant she be more understanding? I am all for the CDing ppl, and would spend the rest of my days fighting for ppl to have the right to wear whatever the hell they want, but some of the BS does get in the way of what is really important and this GG for one can lose patience. Just my :2c:

[Sandra]

She doesnt dress like a real woman and doesnt even wear makeup

Women don't have to "dress like a real women" as so many people seem to think we should, we don't have to wear make up to be a real woman. We have the right genes a chest that sticks out and sommat a hell of alot different down below to the males. When you have these then you are a real woman it doesn't matter what you wear, you could go around maked and still be a real woman.

[Satrana]

Some of us are receptive...some of us are trying to be empathetic, and help the cause in anyway we can

It is good to hear you are, but my point is why is your outlook not more widespread amongst women? Is it so wrong to assume that with the advances in women's rights, we should not expect the majority of women to be standing shoulder to shoulder with us just as you do personally. Instead, the most common reactions are either complete rejection or stick the head in the sand attitudes.

I guess what this all boils down to is why do most women fail to see the connection with their own recently acquired gender rights and CDs. Moving past the surprise of seeing her husband in a skirt, which is admittedly not an everyday thing to see, why do most women freak out and do not see anything wrong in imposing outdated gender constraints on men? Why have most women not learned from their own struggles? Where is the empathy?

[kwebb]

Sometimes I wonder if dressing sometimes takes on this exploitation of women tone to it. This came to me after watching a certain sit-com the other day where the husband had partnered with this bartender downstair in the building where the couple lived. His idea was to turn the bar into this 'playboy' type club.

When the wives discovered what the girls downstairs had on whilst they served drinks( short costumes with wings and see-thru skirts, really over the top sexy) they took great issue with the husband for partnering. Said he is exploiting women.

How many of us want to dress like that for our own sexual gratification and if so is this somehow exploiting women for sexual purposes? Everything a man sees in the culture from the time he is a boy says to him girls are sex objects. Its hard to break out of that conditioning unless you really are atune to it.
A bit off topic but, how much of CDing is ties up in that somehow?

[Marla S]

I guess what this all boils down to is why do most women fail to see the connection with their own recently acquired gender rights and CDs. Moving past the surprise of seeing her husband in a skirt, which is admittedly not an everyday thing to see, why do most women freak out and do not see anything wrong in imposing outdated gender constraints on men? Why have most women not learned from their own struggles? Where is the empathy?
Sexism against women is still a big issue!
I think deep down a lot GGs feel man=sexist, at least subconsciously (not meant as an offence, because there are ideed "good" reasons for it). In dressing stereotypical "sexy", and relating the dressing very strong to the sexual level (i. e. Thread: Is your dressing sexual ? Most said: Yes, of course) this view is supported by ourself and makes it even harder to see something positive in CDing.
Those of us that do not have the sexual aspects dominating, are at least suspicious to have it too ("wolf in sheep’s clothing" or "sexist in women's casual clothing", respectively).

[swiss_susan]

Newbie,

I both appreciate your input and applaud your sentiment.

I don't see why you would think you would get kicked out of the forum for expressing your opinion in a clear and respectful manner.

Like religion or politics our personal views on D'ing differ (widely :D ) as long as we try to phrase it in a respectful manner, with the understanding that others may differ I see no problem.

Both you and your SO have provided valuable input into the forum that I for one value, and continue to look forward to.

Many thaks for your input,

Susan

[Audra Sinclair]

My :2c: for what it is worth.
I am not lucky enough to dress female several times a week. Maybe twice a month at best. When I do have the oppertunity I like to dress and act as femine as possible. Full make-up and real femine looking clothes. Skirts, dresses and coats. When I am Audra I like looking as feminie as possible.

On a rare occassion that I dress and go out early in the afternoon I dress down. Look around at the GG's in the mall and imitate their dress. Usually jeans and "T" shirts. Dressed for the "ball" will make you stand out during the day at the mall.

One of the best ways for any CD to "pass" is to put your mind in the female mode. From the moment you start putting on your make-up tell yourself you are female. Walk, talk, and act female. I have been using self-hypnosis for several years now. I leave post-hypontic suggestions in my mind that help me feel and act like I am female. This could be a very long discussion about hypnosis and it is off the subject but if you are iterested you can message me.

You are who you are and nothing can change that. You can however embrace it and enjoy it.

[CaptLex]

Why do CDs also have to take the good fight against women? If women themselves have only recently won their own fight against gender restrictions, why are they not more receptive to our cause? Where did all the empathy disappear to? Why would women not automatically extend their own newly won gender freedom to men?
Satrana,

I think it all comes down to the same reasons other men don't understand and don't approve of CDing - misinformation and even homophobia. Some GGs (like most of the population) have only been exposed to stereotypes related to CDing and automatically assume that if their husband or boyfriend wants to dress in women's clothes then he must really be a closet homosexual. This misunderstanding keeps CDs in the closet and so it's a catch-22 situation. Shedding light on ignorance is the only chance one has of being understood.

And noname . . . enough with the "poor me" act - get over it already! :thumbsdn: I doubt there is anything society in general and women specifically can do to help you understand and stop seeing yourself as victim. Some people won't do anything to help their situation except whine and blame the rest of the world.

[Calliope]

Sometimes I wonder if dressing sometimes takes on this exploitation of women tone to it. [...] How many of us want to dress like that for our own sexual gratification and if so is this somehow exploiting women for sexual purposes? Everything a man sees in the culture from the time he is a boy says to him girls are sex objects. Its hard to break out of that conditioning unless you really are atune to it.
A bit off topic but, how much of CDing is ties up in that somehow?


In dressing stereotypical "sexy", and relating the dressing very strong to the sexual level (i. e. Thread: Is your dressing sexual ? Most said: Yes, of course) this view is supported by ourself and makes it even harder to see something positive in CDing.
Those of us that do not have the sexual aspects dominating, are at least suspicious to have it too ("wolf in sheep’s clothing" or "sexist in women's casual clothing", respectively).

I'm beginning to wonder if dressing sporatically and / or in the closet doesn't prolong the 'puberty' phase of dressing - that initial erotic blast which, when you think about it, is pretty detached from reality.

Of course, look who's talking.
:bonk:

[Marla S]

I'm beginning to wonder if dressing sporatically and / or in the closet doesn't prolong the 'puberty' phase of dressing - that initial erotic blast which, when you think about it, is pretty detached from reality.
Closet dressing is pretty detached from reality "per defintion" and of course is a vicious circle: I am "weird" and have to stay in the closet. See, he's weird because he is in the closet. This may cause some really weird action in the closet etc.
And it is probably right that closet dressing preserves a 'pubertal' way of thinking. But who to blame for ? CDs almost have no other chance as long as they define themselves by the society's view. This doesn't allow much of a personal growth (True not only for closet CDs).

About the erotic blast I better don't talk here, but of course there is something that would fit in the column "Pub Thoughts" (the never published volume):D

[NewbieCD]

It is good to hear you are, but my point is why is your outlook not more widespread amongst women? Is it so wrong to assume that with the advances in women's rights, we should not expect the majority of women to be standing shoulder to shoulder with us just as you do personally. Instead, the most common reactions are either complete rejection or stick the head in the sand attitudes.

I guess what this all boils down to is why do most women fail to see the connection with their own recently acquired gender rights and CDs. Moving past the surprise of seeing her husband in a skirt, which is admittedly not an everyday thing to see, why do most women freak out and do not see anything wrong in imposing outdated gender constraints on men? Why have most women not learned from their own struggles? Where is the empathy?
I think a lot of woman could be on board with us and help us fight but do you think they went around lying cheating steal from the family finances and making a complete jerk of them selfs to get the same right that we want now . We are making it harder on our selfes they fought for the same freedom in work and liberty that we guys take for granted the clothes happened to be a way to stand out and be seen. Yet us having the normal rights that go along with being a heterosexual male in todays society. All of us including myself see what all can be lost in our lifes by walking outside in a dress, that we take for granted. Where they had to fight to be equal to the standards we already had. So the decision lays in our hands now is what we believe worth fighting for worth what we will give up in return if so than I implore you to go out tomrow.

[ReginaK]

i think its time men and women stopped being concerned with what each other wears. we are all trying to be ourselves and as men or women just trying to be accepted in todays society. we are only talking about clothes and appearance after all.

Personally, I never really cared about what women wore. But it seems women have the biggest problem with what crossdressers wear. Whether we wear it too short, wear it too often, or just wear it period.

[Satrana]

Satrana,

I think it all comes down to the same reasons other men don't understand and don't approve of CDing - misinformation and even homophobia.

CaptLex

I agree with you on this but when women are exposed crossdressing ie when their SO comes out of the closet, they still refuse to abandon their misinformation and phobias and acknowledge that crossdressing is a freedom of choice/gender issue. There remains a blanket refusal to see the connection with women's freedom of choice/gender battles and crossdressing no matter how much information is provided to them.

Sorry to keep rabbiting on about this but I am tending to lean towards the points made by Marla S that (sub)consciously women equate men with sexism, and Kwebb saying that women are always suspicious about being exploited by men. I think that at a deep level, women cannot see past the sexual component of crossdressing and see it only as a perversion making a mockery of femininity. And they feel vindicated in this viewpoint because all of society is intolerant of CDs.

I guess most women instinctively believe there is an ulterior, selfish, sexist motive behind crossdressing which is why there is little emphathy for our cause despite the feminist movement improving their own lives and giving them the freedoms CDs seek.

You think there is any validity in this?

[ReginaK]

How many of us want to dress like that for our own sexual gratification and if so is this somehow exploiting women for sexual purposes? Everything a man sees in the culture from the time he is a boy says to him girls are sex objects. Its hard to break out of that conditioning unless you really are atune to it.
A bit off topic but, how much of CDing is ties up in that somehow?

I don't believe in exploitation unless the law or someone with a gun is forcing the person to do it. When a crossdresser dresses a certain way, he's only exploiting himself.

Now there are certain feminist groups that have issues with crossdressers and transsexuals because they think MtFs pander to the sexual objectification of women.

[Satrana]

Now there are certain feminist groups that have issues with crossdressers and transsexuals because they think MtFs pander to the sexual objectification of women.

Which is another interesting observation, that the more feminist a GG is, the more she seems to object to CDs. Which goes back to my point that you would think there would be a natural marriage between the feminist movement and CDs but the opposite seems to be the case because of the underlying distrust and hostility towards men in general.

[Lisa Golightly]

I keep looking at this thread... but I don't really quite understand its purpose... ?

[Satrana]

I keep looking at this thread... but I don't really quite understand its purpose... ?

Thats probably true for 99% of the threads in this forum.... Maybe the point is this is the only space CDs have where we can yak about anything we like without fear of discrimination and put-downs.:2c:

[Lisa Golightly]

Thats probably true for 99% of the threads in this forum.... Maybe the point is this is the only space CDs have where we can yak about anything we like without fear of discrimination and put-downs.:2c:

In that spirit may I just write a few words on my feelings toward dressing and society...

Like a family destitute and bereft of direction they probe the dying embers of a fire that once burned bright hoping to feel some warmth or see some spark of life. Yet for them the fire is gone and only the clinker and ashes remain to prod and fret over. Outside the forest stands in the sunshine, but that is not for them; too easy is the endevour to be, too simple, too childlike. Better to understand the productive process that belittles, reduces, labels a value and purpose on mere commodities.

After all in this world of labels the prize commodity is that you lived your life as dull as the rest, made as much money as was expected and that you died with the means to bury your carcass in the cold unforgiving frost bitten earth.

And as those who barely knew you wonder what entertainment they must suffer that night all that you really were, all the passion, pride and fear lies dancing upon the wind... mere ashes and clinker to feed a forgotten forest in the sunshine.


Hmmmmm... yep, that's my take on it all.

[ReginaK]

In dressing stereotypical "sexy", and relating the dressing very strong to the sexual level (i. e. Thread: Is your dressing sexual ? Most said: Yes, of course) this view is supported by ourself and makes it even harder to see something positive in CDing.
Those of us that do not have the sexual aspects dominating, are at least suspicious to have it too ("wolf in sheep’s clothing" or "sexist in women's casual clothing", respectively).

Why is sexual dressing seen as a bad thing though? Unless you're asexual, everyone has sexual feelings of some sort. As long as no one is being hurt, it's harmless. A guess it's just more proof we live in a sex negative world where any sexual activity for non-procreation reasons is pathologize.

[Satrana]

Lisa

Very poetic. I take that to mean live life to its fullest cause you only live once, be willing to take chances and seize opportunities, dont get hung up on society's trivialities and always see your cup as being half-full, not half-empty.

Sounds like good advice to me and the path to happiness.

Here is some more wisdom;


Believe nothing on the faith of traditions, even though they have been held in honor for many generations and in diverse places.
Do not believe a thing because many people speak of it.
Do not believe on the faith of the sages of the past.
Do not believe what you yourself have imagined, persuading yourself that a God inspires you.
Believe nothing on the sole authority of your masters and priests.
After examination, believe what you yourself have tested and found to be reasonable, and conform your conduct thereto.

Buddha

Now if Buddha says you have to follow your own beliefs and not be swayed by tradition and others around you, who am I to disagree?:thumbsup:

[Lisa Golightly]

om :)

[Marla S]

Why is sexual dressing seen as a bad thing though? Unless you're asexual, everyone has sexual feelings of some sort. As long as no one is being hurt, it's harmless. A guess it's just more proof we live in a sex negative world where any sexual activity for non-procreation reasons is pathologize.
Sexuality is always a delicate subject in our society. You named the reason.
Sexuality is closely realted to intimacy, which makes it a good subject for private, non public locations.
If dressing sexy as "a woman" in order to get sexual experiences is the dominating factor for argueing, this has to clash with the self-respect of real woman (and my view on women too), because they are demoted to a hallstand for sexual clothes (which is interchangeable) in a way. I think we can't expect that this is very appreciated.
If dressing sexual is the dominat factor than, conservative as I am, I don't want to see this when I go shopping in the mall. I don't want to see a BDSM couple in action there either and I don't want to see couples playing erotic games when I go shopping for a new bed.
(Just had to think about some article posted lately about a man dressed in fem clothes, sitting in a library playing with his little friend. Sorry, I don't want people to relate my dress code to this, but they do if the sexual aspect is pronounced.)

[Calliope]

(Just had to think about some article posted lately about a man dressed in fem clothes, sitting in a library playing with his little friend. Sorry, I don't want people to relate my dress code to this, but they do if the sexual aspect is pronounced.)

Somehow, the overt sexuality in Cding seems to trivialize the fem experience - it's just reductionist or sensationalist (to my eyes).

Then again, I'm getting too old to consider sex very important.

You see, I've got my kids and don't plan on having more.

[CaptLex]

Sorry to keep rabbiting on about this but I am tending to lean towards the points made by Marla S that (sub)consciously women equate men with sexism, and Kwebb saying that women are always suspicious about being exploited by men. I think that at a deep level, women cannot see past the sexual component of crossdressing and see it only as a perversion making a mockery of femininity. And they feel vindicated in this viewpoint because all of society is intolerant of CDs.

I guess most women instinctively believe there is an ulterior, selfish, sexist motive behind crossdressing which is why there is little emphathy for our cause despite the feminist movement improving their own lives and giving them the freedoms CDs seek.

You think there is any validity in this?
Like I said . . . misinformation. :raisedeyebrow:

Crossdressing is usually such a closeted activity that most people don't know anything about it until someone they know well discloses that they do it. It's the same as how some people don't know anything about certain diseases until someone close to them is diagnosed with one of them. People only "know" the wrong things they've heard or seen in the media (like bad jokes and "weirdo" transvestites appearing on sensationalistic talk shows).

Women are no different from the rest of the population - if they've never been properly informed, they're going to have a problem with it when they first encounter it. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody in this . . . just saying, I think misinformation is to blame. It's up to us to shed some light. :evilbegon

[yvonne10]

you are perfictley right my wife looks great in her jeans and an old t shirt

[Kimberly]

*applauds another serioius debate-type thread*

Sorry, I've lost my 2 cents somewhere... (Probably at the Bureau de Change!)

[Snookums]

Heavy subject girlfriend,I don't try to pass,I have been judged "gay"by ignorant assclowns.I am hetrosexual,and married.No my SO does not object,but she never contributes to my "preferences"as I call them.I am more at home wearing womens jeans and shoes than mens clothes or shoes,what some refer to a dressing "drab".when asked why I dress like this I tell them sometime after I turned one year old I told myself,"I wanna dress like mommy".After all stupid questions deserve stupid answers.God made me this way,my dad spent his entire life hateing me for how God made me,he tried to cure me by beating me severely,several times hospitalizing me,such is life when one is an individual.Now I live for me,I feel if people are bothered by who I am and what I prefer,they have a serious problem and should seek professional help.I think I'll go buy some sexy stilettos to wear to the Veterans Hospital clinic tommorrow.

[Satrana]

Now I live for me,I feel if people are bothered by who I am and what I prefer,they have a serious problem and should seek professional help.
Thats the type of fighting spirit I like to see. This community will never go anywhere unless we can all agree to stand up for our basic rights to self expression.

Question: whose selfishness is more important - yours or theirs?


Like I said . . . misinformation. :raisedeyebrow:



Indeed, which only leads to the next problem that many do not want to be educated with the facts when faced with a personal problem presumably because they have already made up their minds based on the misinformation and distrust.:(