would you have your infant sons sex changed?

[bredalee25]

Ok here is a question for you parents out there. I just watched an episode of law and order where a couple had twin boys but as a result of a horrific acccident while being circumsized the one twin was burned badly in the genitals. So on the advice of doctors thay had srs performed and raised him as a girl. Would any of you consider this if you thought it was the only way to keep the child from being teased for the rest of his life?

ttfn

[ReginaK]

Of course not. I've seen the results of people who were disfigured at birth by circumcision and then raised as female. They often end up even more miserable than if you just let them live as their birth sex.

[CassieW]

no, because his hormones will tell him different later on. we all know what hormones can do.
Huggs,
Cassie

[susiej]

I believe the psychological literature has horror stories of this sort of thing -- boy born with a deformity, parents decide "he'll be better off as a girl" -- tell the neighbors there were twins, but the boy died -- and so on. Their daughter becomes something of a tomboy, but does pretty well until raging hormones, and we all know which ones, kick in, at about age 13.

This is a decision for the individual to make, once he is old enough to know the costs and benefits. Imagining that "we can solve the problem, and she'll never know" by imposing a non-genetic gender on a child, and that there will be no consequences much more dire than teasing, would be pretty naive!

Hugs,
Susie

[GG Vanya]

I'm with the majority on this one. After suing the beejezus outta the docs, I'd put aside the money for the child, and when he/she is of age to make his/her OWN decision, the money would be there.

I would never presume to play God with my child.

[imarocker2]

I saw that show too. Sadly, the boy who was rasied a girl and went back to be ing a boy killed himself with a shotgun several years ago.

[carol ann]

I think that such a thought is just sick!

That is not a crossdressing issue nor even a transgender matter. It is not something to be inflicted on another individual

[Sharon]

I'm with the majority on this one. After suing the beejezus outta the docs, I'd put aside the money for the child, and when he/she is of age to make his/her OWN decision, the money would be there.

I would never presume to play God with my child.

Perfect answer as far as I'm concerned.

[janedoe311]

I saw that show too. Sadly, the boy who was rasied a girl and went back to be ing a boy killed himself with a shotgun several years ago.

Dr money and David Reimer. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money

His brother killed himself just before he did.

Big mistake his mother made beliving a psychologist!

She lost both of her children due to this quack.

"Intersex activists also criticized Money, stating that the unreported failure had led to the surgical reassignment of thousands of infants as a matter of policy. [11] Privately, Money was mortified by the case, colleagues said, and as a rule did not discuss it.

It should also be pointed out that the Johns-Hopkins University no longer performs the kind of research and surgeries pioneered by Money due to their lack of a valid scientific basis. "

But from what I read these intersexed sexchanges are still being done, despite the failer of David Reimer.

He belived that maleness and womaness is trained not born. He ignored all transgender and homosexuals in the world and the medical evidence showing that you are born with you gender ID.

It is sick Dr money should have been shot. He died this year still beliving his crap.

[Charleen]

I'm with the majority on this one. After suing the beejezus outta the docs, I'd put aside the money for the child, and when he/she is of age to make his/her OWN decision, the money would be there.

I would never presume to play God with my child.

Amen Sister!

[kathy gg]

:thumbsdn:
First off, I would never circumcize a boy {if we had had one}, as there is no reason {other than religious and we are not Jewish} for it to even need to happen.

It is a horrible thing that thankfully is not being encouraged by baby Dr's and authorities on birth. I know 20-30 years ago it was just as natural as separating a baby from his Mom and being put in a room with 20 other newborns....of course that too has gone the way of alot of parts of childbirth. No one encourages this from a medical standpoint anymore. The old idea that it helped keep infection down is almost irrelevant as most new parents use some disposable wipes.

Just say no to circumcision.

[WendyCD]

The book about David Reimer is excellent. Of course, it is deeply disturbing regarding the agony he and his family suffered.

The author (John Colapinto) did a fantastic job in his research regarding scientific theory of gender and human development. It's worth the read.

[WendyCD]

I don't know for sure, but after reading the book I just mentioned (your post came up while I was typing) I always wondered if the Reimer case is why circumcision is not performed routinely anymore in Canada. Still a common procedure in parts of the US.

[Tina Dixon]

Once again I see why I never had kids.

[brandie]

had 5 boys and would never even think of doing it different
i lost one at 10 months old and know how it would fell to live like god. the doc. said my son would not live through the night but he did. and lived for 10 mts. would not change a thang

brandie

[Stephenie S]

It always struck me as odd that women (and men) could get so upset about female genital mutilation being done to young girls in places like Somalia and Chad and then rutinely mutilate the genitals of their sons here in the US.

There is absolutely NO medical or social reason to perform this operation on the genitals of a baby boy. This is abuse, plain and simple.

Circumcision is a barbaric holdover from the Victorian age when it was thought to prevent masturbation. I understand that it is part of some peoples' religion. I have a hard time with it even then.

Steph

[GG Vanya]

:thumbsdn:
First off, I would never circumcize a boy {if we had had one}, as there is no reason {other than religious and we are not Jewish} for it to even need to happen.

It is a horrible thing that thankfully is not being encouraged by baby Dr's and authorities on birth. I know 20-30 years ago it was just as natural as separating a baby from his Mom and being put in a room with 20 other newborns....of course that too has gone the way of alot of parts of childbirth. No one encourages this from a medical standpoint anymore. The old idea that it helped keep infection down is almost irrelevant as most new parents use some disposable wipes.

Just say no to circumcision.


Kathy,

I am very relieved to hear that. When my sons were born, it was still almost demanded that they be circumcized at birth. I refused this with all three of my sons, and was admonished by both doctors and nurses. They wanted to know WHY, and wouldn't accept my answer that it was inhumane and unnecessary. They tried to assure me that infants don't feel pain. :eek: OK, so why the hell do they scream when the doc hangs 'em upside down and smacks their bottom? Why do they cry with colic?

Then they tried the sanitary position, saying it would prevent infections, etc. I assured them I would (and did) teach my boys as toddlers how to properly "bathe". Then they tried the "some males end up having to be circumcized as adults, which is a much more serious procedure" position. I asked for statistics, and they couldn't provide any.

The procedure was so "common" here that with two of my sons, when I asked for an itemized bill upon release from hospital, they had included the cost of circumcision. When I confronted them on it, they replied "well, we automatically charge for that when a male baby is born since everyone has it done. They weren't too happy when I made them reimburse the insurance company for the charges.

I too think it's a barbaric practice and mistakes just as the one mentioned here can happen all too easily when you have an infant who is not put to sleep, and according to the doctor who delivered my sons, is not even given anything for pain. HELLO? would YOU sit perfectly still for that? :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn:

[Stlalice]

Read the book "As Nature Made Him" - it is the story of the twins case that is the basis of this thread. Incidently, BOTH of the twins in this particular case have since died by suicide. Until a child is old enough to clearly express their gender identity themselves they should NEVER be subjected to any kind of gender reassignment surgery. The practice in the medical profession of "assigning" sex and the consquent gender identity that goes with it to intersex babies has been a source anguish to far too many people aready. :Angry3:

[Robin Leigh]

I just burst into tears reading this thread. :cry:

I read John Colapinto's book about 10 years ago. I felt a special connection with David & his brother, since they were born on my birthday. David was given a (partial) sex-change without his knowledge, and didn't find out until his early teens. As soon as he found out, he stopped wearing girl's clothes & demanded to be changed back. Even though he wasn't really TG in the usual sense, because of his experiences I think of him as a TG martyr & hero.

At least this tragedy has taught us that TGs are born, not made. If you haven't yet read this book, I urge you to do so.

John Money presented his work with David Reimer as a textbook case that gender is totally constructed, and as one of the world's leading sexologists, he had a major influence on the medical profession re: intersex & transgender issues. From his reports everything was progressing wonderfully in this patient's life, in reality, it was a failure from the start.

I'm glad this story was made into an episode of "Law & Order". This is a story more people should know about.

Robin

[goofus]

I'm with Kathy on this one - circumcision is medically unnecessary and robs the penis of sensitivity, in addition to violating everyone's inalienable right to genital integrity! A good book on it is Circumcision Exposed by Billy Ray Boyd.

As for changing the sex, definitely not. As the sad case of David Reimer proves once again, gender is between your ears and not between your legs!




:thumbsdn:
First off, I would never circumcize a boy {if we had had one}, as there is no reason {other than religious and we are not Jewish} for it to even need to happen.

It is a horrible thing that thankfully is not being encouraged by baby Dr's and authorities on birth. I know 20-30 years ago it was just as natural as separating a baby from his Mom and being put in a room with 20 other newborns....of course that too has gone the way of alot of parts of childbirth. No one encourages this from a medical standpoint anymore. The old idea that it helped keep infection down is almost irrelevant as most new parents use some disposable wipes.

Just say no to circumcision.

[WendyCD]

As for changing the sex, definitely not. As the sad case of David Reimer proves once again, gender is between your ears and not between your legs!

Exactly!! And it was the section of the book that dealt with that issue I found so compelling.

The **nervous system** is formed very early in development of the fetus. Certainly before development of gender identifiable genitalia. A scientist named Diamond - I think - who challenged Money's assertion that gender was learned or could be modified (hormones, behaviorial modification, socialization, etc....). Diamond...(anyone correct me if I'm wrong regarding my recollection of names from the book)... asserted that development of gender begins very soon after conception, in the brain and nervous tissue.

Therefore a human being at the earliest stage of emryonic development has gender. Gender identification (for that individual) does not wait for the later stages of development, ie the external genitalia. It does not wait and is not dependent on what clothes his or her parent buy once he or she is born and does not wait for puberty.

This is why this book is sooooo important. Not just for parents of children born with ambiguous genitalia, but for anybody who has an interest in gender identification issues. My appreciation for the book is why I guess I de-lurked.

The circumcision is a hot issue. There is no medical reason to have it done. The millions of us who are circumcised or have circumcised kids probably formed and made our decisions on old information - ie there were medical benefits to doing so. It is a **cosmetic** procedure, and should be treated by the medical industry as such - ie, stop doing it to infants - if they want it done as an adult - fine...

[Kate Simmons]

No Bren, As was brought out, a big mistake was made with David. He would have to be old enough to make his own informed decision and deal with his feelings. Ericka Kay

[Robin Leigh]

Yes, Money was exposed by Diamond. (Spooky!) Dr Milton Diamond, in fact.
Here a good article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money.

Robin

[Angie G]

I'm with GG Vanya on this one
angie

[JoAnnDallas]

iI just read a Medical Study where a man in China had cancer and both his penis and testicles had both removed 8 years ago. Last year a research team transplanted a new penis and testicles. The report said that both are now fully functional. This type of surgry will get better as time goes on and the procedure is refined.

[Robin Leigh]

I just read a Medical Study where a man in China had cancer and both his penis and testicles had both removed 8 years ago.

Ouch! :( How did the tumor get so extensive? Was it a teratoma? Those things are downright scary...


Last year a research team transplanted a new penis and testicles. The report said that both are now fully functional. This type of surgery will get better as time goes on and the procedure is refined.

Wow! I wonder who was the donor. :eek:

I guess it'll be a while before a version of this technique can be used on the FTM boys, but it's still a big leap forward.

Robin

[JenniferMint]

Ok here is a question for you parents out there. I just watched an episode of law and order where a couple had twin boys but as a result of a horrific acccident while being circumsized the one twin was burned badly in the genitals. So on the advice of doctors thay had srs performed and raised him as a girl. Would any of you consider this if you thought it was the only way to keep the child from being teased for the rest of his life?

I disagree that the child would be teased for the rest of his life. I went through school and people never saw my genitalia. I could've been a boy with a vagina and no one would have noticed!

[Robin Leigh]

I disagree that the child would be teased for the rest of his life. I went through school and people never saw my genitalia. I could've been a boy with a vagina and no one would have noticed!

This happened 40 years ago, to a family in rural Canada, from a religious background. They just wanted their child to be as normal as possible, under the tragic circumstances. But world expert Dr John Money turned their identical twin boys into an evil experiment, IMNSHO. I think all TG people would benefit from familiarising themselves with this tragic case.

As mentioned above, many thousands of intersex people around the world have had their lives directly impacted by the theories of John Money, and he also had quite an influence on the development of transgender theory, too.

Fortunately, less intersex babies now get their genitalia tampered with, but it is still happening. I have a friend who is a molecular biologist/biochemist who used to work in the field. I don't know which upset him more: the attitude of the specialists who direct these operations, the genital surgery, or the sex hormones these babies & children are given. Thank goodness that's no longer SOP here in Australia, but there are still hundreds of former victims here of the old method still growing up & trying to come to terms with themselves, their sex & their gender. :(

Robin

[Daphne Renee]

I wouldnt have doctors do srs on my son unless somehow it was a medical necessity.. i.e his life would depend on it or something like that.
anything else I would wait and let him make up his on mind when he was old enough.

[Shelly Preston]

NO

Any surgery would have to be necessary for the child

But this does not mean changing who they are

There are enough intersex children who live quite happily ( it harder for them a a decison has to be made at birth on which sex to raise them)

Whereas the child in this question is older