Help with faith and dressing

[Suzanna_CD]

Something I've been wrestling with for the past few months is my faith and crossdressing. I am a Christian, and I try walk the path as best I can and thought I was doing pretty good. A few months ago I stumbled across a verse in Dueterotemy (sorry, I can't spell it very well) that seemed to deal with crossdressing. For the moment, I can not find this verse, but I will look again to give you some referance to what I mean (some of you may already know which I mean). My problem is that while I enjoy to dress and have fun with it, I do not want to go against something God has labeled bad. I'm too embarassed to go to my preacher or youth minister since I am not out yet, and fear that somehow it may get brought up again as an example. I know some of you here are faithful, and was hoping I could get some guidance or advice on how you take this. Any help is greatly appriciated, thank you for reading :) .

[Julie York]

Suzanne. I am not a 'religeous' person, but I wanted to reply to you because it might help before everyone else adds their confusion.

In order for you to come to terms with what you feel, you need to be brave enough to not only examine yourself, but also your faith. You will get plenty of examples of people telling you that any persuasion away from your beliefs is evil or wrong. But just as you are coming to examine your own feelings, you should investigate the origin of the bible and it's various editing over 2000 years. If you understand the origins of the bible it will not scare you so much. If you have a genuine relationship with your God then you do not need to refer or be chastised by a document written by other people. Use your own judgement. Go to the Top directly. It's between you and your God, not anyone else or anything written in a book.

If you believe the bible is the Word of God, then you're going to have a bit of difficulty. However, if you read enough of it, you can pick a line that will cover all angles anyway.

Good luck. Be brave and most of all.....DARE TO THINK!! .

[maryjanecapri]

here's a very simple answer to this long-argued point.

back in jesus' time both men and women wore tunic-type "dresses". the difference being that the women covered their heads and the men did not. the bible, in that passage, was telling the men to not cover their heads and the women to keep theirs covered.

[Amelie]

Suzanna, you are on the highway to hell. You must redeme yourself. It's not too late, send all your fem clothes to me and you will be saved.
Amelie

[MissBosie]

A god who worries about what pieces of cloth we cover ourselves in isn't worth bothering about - it's our actions that matter, not what we wear.

[StephanieCD]

I hesitate to participate because I get very uptight when people start questioning themselves because of a subjective text, ya know? I'm spirtitual but not religious and I've heard all manner of dicussion on "what God wants" - this is "bad" or "wrong" and only this is "good" or "right".... when it's all subject to interpretation anyway - the religious texts vary in meaning as many times as there are people to read them. Some religions seem to thrive onmaking people feel they have "sinned" or done wrong in being themselves.... others seem to be just guidelines to healthy living.... as far as crossdressing goes - my soul doesn't even wear pants!

:)

Sorry if I sound opinionated - I've just heard so many people rip themselves apart because of what God wants and the only one they ask is a priest or something - who sees everything with the bias of the own HUMAN eyes. Ask YOUR God, not theirs.

[Amelie]

Amelie
the ones that are to large for you please forward to me !

maude

You can have all the bright color clothes, I'll keep the black colors.

[Anita]

be what YOU want to be.There are enough people in this world wanting to push their beliefs onto us (take a look at our government in England ONCE THE LAND OF THE FREE
Your x dressing hurts nobody It does not make them fightIt does not cause famine. It gives YOU pleasure So enjoy
Do not even consider religion it started most wars
love Anita xx

[Suzanna_CD]

Thanks for all of your replies, and the humor Amelie :) I needed some of that. I guess in time I will come to terms with it, I am probably blowing this way out of proportion to myself. I was perfectly happy before, I'll just go back to that point in time. You all are right, wearing clothes should not matter what type. I think that I'll have a little talk with Him later and see what happens. Actually when I first found that verse and was praying on it some, the next day I found this site, so maybe this is just where I need to be right now :) . Thank you again.

Oh and sorry Amelie, no dark colored clothes here ;) .

[Wendy me]

i think god wants you heart and soul to be good and loveing.......anem and eve.......
thay were nacked???????? no dress code thats peoples thing.........right????????

sister you will be fine don't think you will be going to hell for pantys........or a dress

[Julie York]

Actually when I first found that verse and was praying on it some, the next day I found this site, so maybe this is just where I need to be right now :) . Thank you again.

.

Good for you! See that's what I was waffling about earlier. Only longer. Use your OWN instincts. Good luck.

[Jen_TGCD]

Thanks for all of your replies, and the humor Amelie :) I needed some of that. I guess in time I will come to terms with it, I am probably blowing this way out of proportion to myself. I was perfectly happy before, I'll just go back to that point in time. You all are right, wearing clothes should not matter what type. I think that I'll have a little talk with Him later and see what happens. Actually when I first found that verse and was praying on it some, the next day I found this site, so maybe this is just where I need to be right now :) . Thank you again.

Suzanna...
Looks like you are already finding the answer to this question. :)

If you, or others on the forum, want to read more on this, go to www.google.com (http://www.google.com/) and type "Deuteronomy 22.5, crossdress" in the search box. There was an amazing amount of information on this topic. I read just two... one from a Rabbi and one from a Christian view. Both said that the true interpretation was vague and has little to do with actual "crossdressing".

Good luck!!!

[Merinda]

Top sins

1 terrorists
2 murderers
3 rapists
4 armed hold-up
5 crossdressers

Yes Amelie is right , send all your size 14 clothes to me immediatly .


seriously
I am not a follower of any particular religion but the girls here are right , " the bible was written and re-written by man and is meant to be used as a guide.
I'm sure crossdressing would not be on the list ,if it is then it would be at the bottom and is not worth worrying about.

[Serena]

First, I'm happy you found the answer to your question quickly Suzanna.

Now for my veiw: most people here have already said a lot of stuff that's true, but even if it's looked upon as "bad" by other people, all of the bibles were written by man, and not God himself, so you have to with what you know about God, and not what other people try to convince you.

[Ashleigh]

Suzanna, I commend you for having this thought. It shows that you want to do the right thing. All too many people seem to think that a god who puts limitations on us is not worth dealing with, or to ignore, etc., and to just do it if it feels good. I couldn't disagree with them more. A loving God wants us to be happy and gives us "guidelines" on our actions so that we may be happy in our decisions (since He knows all and we don't). I do agree with those who stated that the Bible has been written and re-written. I believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. If you want what the Lord wants, sincerely ask Him. Invoke the council stated in James 1:5-6 with real intent on knowing the truth and then listen. Talk to Him like you would your own trusted, loving father. Explain how you are feeling, what you want to attain by the crossdressing and how far you want to go with it. Ask the question as you go along "is this right that...." . He will let you know.

[maryjanecapri]

one other thing about the bible - if you take it literally it allows slavery and treats women like dirt.

oh and the number 666 - is actually another way (within the Greek language) to spell out Nero Ceaser.

so the bible has been mis-interpreted many times and in many ways.

[Suzanna_CD]

Thank you all so much, I seem to have found this answer much more quickly than I thought I would with y'alls help as well. I was beginning to accept it a little bit, but still had doubt until i decided to go with Jen's advice and read up on those things in google's search. After I read the verse "there is no male or female, for we all are one in Christ Jesus" I felt so much better! I guess He works pretty quick :) . I'm actually crying a bit from joy, thank you all so much.

[Vivian Best]

Hi Suzanna,

I share your faith and I too was concerned about the scripture verse you mentioned. A careful reading of the context seems to indicate the verse was directed to the Old Testement priests. The Old Testement is pretty clear on how they were to dress or not dress.

There are a couple thoughts you can consider: Christ came and died for our sins AND He superceeded the Old Testement laws! Does that make the Old Testement laws invalid to us? The New Testement says we are not under the law but under Grace because of what Christ did on the cross for us. The second thought is that the text in the Old Testement also says a woman should not dress like a man. Now, if it's wrong of a man to wear women's clothes then it's also wrong for women to wear men's clothes. What is true for one has to be true for the other. If it is wrong for me to wear women's clothes then all women that wear jeans, slacks, tee shirts, and all men's clothing that have been modified for women are commiting the same wrong that I am. I'm not saying two wrongs makes a right.

Personally, I've come to a place that I do not feel I'm doing anthing wrong with my crossdressing. The question cannot be resolved by any of us here on the forum but by you. You can read what some post and gleem feelings from them. But ultimately you have to look inside yourself and see what you believe and how you interpet what you read in the Bible.

I do not agree with some's posts to your thread and that's ok, I hope we on this forum can agree to disagree and still be sisters. I personally believe the Bible is the inspired word of God! But, there are some things that you have to take figuratively. For instance, if you take communion the Bible says you are eating and drinking the body of Christ. We know that isn't so! There are many other instances such as this in the Bible that we don't really know how to handle and crossdressing is one of them.

I do hope you can come to your decision quickly. I let mine eat at me for decades before I took a realistic approach and came to my conclusion that what I was doing was not a sin!

Vivian

[Sweet Susan]

I'd love to be able to help here, but I'm afraid I can't. I don't get the whole Jesus thing, never have, don't intend to ever go that direction. It's find for those who do, but I just can't swallow that pill.

[Georgette]

One of the most important things in the Christian faith is to know your sexuality, this I think is the only reference in the new testament that refers to any thing about Sexul orientation. I may be wrong on this but I know that this is one of the things where in my relegion is sinful, it doesn't say anything about women or men wearing each others clothes. One thing I won't do is judge someone because of there sexul preference or orentation.

[carolynhcd]

If you are a christian, then the old testament has nothing to do with you. The old testament was an agreement, a legally binding contract between god and the Jews. It states that the Jews and only the Jews are the chosen people. The new testament is a broader agreement between god and man, all men, gentiles as well as Jews. It says that if you love god and your neighbor, you are doing all that is requisite. Forget the old testament, it has nothing to do with someone who calls themselves christian. Jesus mentions nothing about sex. If your uncle is dying and contacts his lawyer and makes out his last will and TESTAMENT and chooses to give all his estate to his son, and then at some later time bethinks himself to make a superceding will that divides his estate between you and your cousin, which will do you choose to support? The one that excludes you entirely, or the one that allows you to share in his bounty? Of course you support the second, how could you not? Jesus came to overturn the old law and offer the religion of love. Do you want to honor the god of the Jews or Jesus? Who is your saviour? Read Carl Jung's "Answer To Job" to learn about the evolution of the Judeo-Christian god. Crossdressing wasn't an issue for Jesus and it shouldn't be for you. Read the Gospels. What did Jesus say was an abomination? Not much, amigo. Get a grip. If you want to call yourself a christian, you better get out of bible class and do some real studying. Unless you want to wear a phylactery and a yarmulka and blow off bacon, GET OVER YOURSELF!!! If you don't know what a phylactery is, why are you reading the Old Testament? It's for Jews and the Pentateuch which has been incorporated by reference into the Koran. Are you a moslem? Are you a Jew? Then if you are not, why puzzle your pretty head over their religious tomes. They do not concern you. You are blessed to be an adherent of the religion of love, understanding and forgiveness. You have nothing to worry about if you will study what has been given to you. Remember the parable of the talents. One trusted with talents buried them for safety and was rebuked for failing to take risks. The one who invested (risked) them wisely returned a greater number to the master upon his return and was rewarded. Christianity, in it's true, pure form, is a kick-ass religion. Kick over the moneychangers' tables, heal the severed ear of the soldier obeying orders, forgive sinners and prostitutes and consort with the sick and ill of spirit. That is what your saviour did.

[Suzanna_CD]

You've all been so helpful, I don't think I can thank you enough. Just reading some feelings, and having a brief talk with Him, it has been lifted completely, I feel wonderful! It's the best I have felt in a long time, thank you all again for explaining your points of view, opinions, beliefs, and articles on this subject, they have helped eminsly! I don't think I can say this enough, thank you thank you thank you thank you!!

[christine55]

Suzanna, as one who beleives that Jesus is the Son of God and still crossdress, I would say that I feel that if in years gone by if I had been more willing to beleive in God's goodness my life would be substantially different than it is now. I would be married but I would very possibly still be crossdressing, I am not sure. I do know that crossdressing is something very deeply ingrained in me. Although I am sure that God could have easily have removed the desire to dress long ago if he had so desired he chose not to do so. There was a time about 17 years ago when I could have chosen to get married to a very beautiful and sweet Christian girl who later told me when I told her that I had a problem with crossdressing "so what". A day or two before that I chose to be angry with God over the years of misery I had spent struggling without deliverance and came to the attitude that being married would be no better or worse. This was just a negative attitude that
"things have always been shitty, they always will be." I chose to continue crossdressing alone because in my opinion it would be easier than to try to work out a relationship. I have regretted that decision many times in more recent years.
God has certainly not forsaken me. He is not at the present time calling me to just stop dressing. He is teaching me that living as a woman, in and of itself will certainly not satisfy. With the world falling apart around us it becomes more and more evident where our only hope lies.
Hugs, Christine

[DonnaT]

There have been several discussion on Religion or Christianity and Crossdressing

One which provided a link to http://members.tgforum.com/bobbyg/tgfgnl.html

Here's a link that may ease your mind regarding Deuteronomy:

http://www.gender.org.uk/gendys/1999/08hrton.htm

And another at

http://lisbeth.freeservers.com/deut225.html

Note that the writings in Deuteronomy were Hebrew Law. Keep in mind that Deuteronomy is a book in the OLD testament and therefore is part of the OLD law. This law was abolished with Jesus' crucifiction and we are now living under the laws of the NEW testament.

Also, what appears in the Bible is only a small sample of writings of that bygone era.

Man, not God, wrote these things. I find no declaration from any of the authors that God told them what to write.

Also, consider this, who chose what writings to include and which to exclude. And Why? Was there some unkown agenda.

Look for example to the writings regarding Mary Magdalene. http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/jesusandwomen/magdalene.html

Some interpret these writings and say she was a prostitute, yet recent discoveries say that that label was put forward by one or more Apostle because he was jealous, and in fact she was an Apostle too.

So, I wouldn't take everything I read in the Bible as God's word, nor would I loose faith in God because I do not believe that all these writings are gospel.

[MistyCD]

That chapter is in the old testament right..... I look at the fact that since I am a Christian, I should be concerned with the New Testament!!!!

[JennyCA]

...yes you are going to hell for it, so, "send me your clothing". LOL , we got to have a sense of humor in all of this.

I am also a Christian that struggles with your question/issue, and my long-term dressing as a woman (not all the time). The verse you speak of is Deut. 22:5. I will not restate it here, but instead a more accurate translation that gives a different viewpoint.

Therefore a better translation of this verse might be:

A woman must not wear men's gear, nor a man wear women's robes, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.
This seems to imply that what we are talking about in this verse is not clothing, but the masculine and feminine roles of protector and homemaker.

Two points to make:
1) It seems here as though the concern is not trying to escape your responsibilites as a male through wearing a woman's clothing and becoming a woman.
2) The old testament talks about a very strict, hard to understand, and long list of things hated, ie. certain fabrics were not to be mixed, "I detest those that use unjust scales, etc. As usual these things had their place in a culture long removed. The focus is on the external, but someone came after that to put all this into contest, didn't he?

It is the heart and not adornment that is looked at. You are not hated for wearing things of a woman, nor condemned. I once read that an estimated 2% of Christian men do as we do...and many other things.

You are not alone, nor condemned, nor hated. Your heart is seen, and known, and if this is wrong (we seek comfort, closeness, we have a soft side, okay?) then we are also forgiven. These are my opinions only, but glad to share such things as I too have thought over that verse's meaning many times.

Lastly, if this were true, then think of the statement's corralary of a woman not wearing man's clothes. Should this be true, then would God not hate many woman you see each day that dress as men as many do. Women are allowed to dress like men and wear men's clothing in our culture, but not the reverse. All color variations, style, softness, style, allure, fit, and sexy appeal are given as choice in women's clothing...and any man ought not to care about such things in his dress...not.

Jenny.

[Suzanna_CD]

Well, I was not aware of the Old/New Testament and who they applied to, I had never been told this. Thank you for letting me know, that also makes me feel better. It makes sense now that I look at it, I can't recall any service I've been to that has taught out of the Old Testament. I'm overwhelmed with joy that I have, I'm so glad I have sisters I can turn to and will be able to help me with questions I have. Thank you so much for your support!

[LauraB]

Suzanna

I will not add much to what Allison and other sisters have said save this

Much of the old testament spelkled out to folk of that age the way to live what to eat so that they might not die of foof posioning Shell fish and pork etc. What pots to buy and when to buy them what garments to wear. All tyhis was more to do with the borrowed Egyption traditions of ensureing a propsperous home economy by making people buy things and renew them regularily. Also in Leviticus it states that in the presence of Grey hair all must stand. If we atke any part of Leviticus we must take it all that bit and most of it are clearly ridiculous and owe more to control than to god.
Christ when asked said
"It is not what one eats that makes him bad but what he says and does" That is why Christians can eat shell fish and Pork. And why Christians can be CD's or Tgirls and still be Christians. Alife lived well is beter than a life lived badily.

Love
Laura

[Wen4cd]

Ya what carolynhcd said.

Acts of the Apostles... the old holiness code was not adopted by the gentiles. It doesn't apply anymore. The new pact is just to do what JC sez. And JC wasn't really too vocal about crossdressing.

[SultrySara]

Well I guess this goes a little deeper w/ me. I struggle w/ pretty much the same thing except for worrying about crossdressing I worry about my desire to persue being a woman. Not having much money seeing a therapist is pretty much out and my faith in God assures me he will show me the way someday. When I dress I feel more comfortable than I ever do dressed as a man and fell more than ever that I wish I could just go out in the world as the beautiful female I wish I was born as, I guess the most simplified way to put my question is: Am I supposed to stay a man like I was born as?? or am I suppossed to struggle through the process of being a Man made woman so everybody will see me as I feel I wished i looked??? Problem is I am not very girly emotionly just physically more so meaning I don't act very feminen but I feel VERY Feminin when I dress. Hope I am hyjacking this thread I just felt like I wanted to touch a little deeper, does it just stop at crossdressing or do we crossdress to feel more like the woman we wish we were??? One more thing that spins my top is that I KNOW I have been blessed with the physical appearences that could easily be made to look like a woman with a little surgery and the right training, this makes me wonder even more If I am supposed to have SRS one day.I am blessed with being able to look so girly w/ little effort.

[Celeste GG]

Suzanna, Allison had the verse that I would have quoted to you. To which all us GG's would be much more sinfull ....(me wearing army kaki pants right now)

On the other hand ones faith is central to their life and the kind of person they are. It is not to be taken lightly. Amoungst the very diverse thinks that I have done is Biblical studies and theology at University, training to be teacher in the Catholic system. Even whenn young I knew I was different in the war I thought and the kind of things that interested me and searched for answers. I don't advertise it much in what I do, but I adhere to my Christian principles of caring for (loving one another in all I do) Cept in some cased my way of caring for the needs of others might be to dress in women's clothes so that they can reach their full potential as the female that God made them inside. True... some also seek a good spanking to help them reach this potential!!

I don't think it would hurt to have a religious/spiritual page here on this forum along side. There is lots of talk hhere about feeling down and depression and doubt about what we are.

For those who believe it is God that created us, then it is up to us to honor this and strive to be the best we can be.

"The way to honor God, whose handiwork we are, is to be who we are, as perfectly as we can. It is enough to be what you are, and where you are. Just do wholeheartedlly what you KNOW god is asking of you. Don't bother yourself about whether or not what god asks of you is important or grand. Whether your actions are insignificant ot not does not matter, if they are the will of God... God's will is born of his ptovidential concern for you and chosen for you in his eternal wisdom." St. Francis de Sales written four and a half centuries ago.

I think the only sin in crossdressing is that we can sometimes be preoccupied with it. It feel so normal to us that we ecpect to be understood, and become a little selfish and forget the feelings of those around us.

We become so engrossed in the fun and excitment of dressing in pretty things that we forget the poor and the environment.

But crossdressers and friends are no different in this than others, we just have to keep balance in our lives and and make sure we do good deeds. as so many of the girls here do in being supportive of each other.

Sermon over now go out there and practice random acts of kindness!!!!!
or I shall have to spank you.

Celeste (vengeful angel)

[racquel]

As I read this thread I'd think "I should say this",then the next reply would say that.And on it went.Those who do not believe in Jesus or that the bible is not the inspired word of God the father have no such issues.For those of us who do believe the above, then we must follow his command to "love the Lord God with all your mind,heart and soul" and the second is like unto the first, to "love your neighbour as yourself",upon these two commandments all the laws of heaven and earth reside.
Some may disagree with the first but nobody can disagree that the second is a great idea.

[Bernadina]

Whilst I personally hold no truck with anything the bible says, I shall share something I recently read...

The Following Is A Cached Version of an Article By Angela Rose:

And also, if you really are a christian and have received Jesus and your Lord and Saviour how come you are not following His commands not to dress as women DEUT 22:5 WHERE IT CLEARLY STATES A WOMEN SHOULD NOT WEAR ANYTHING THAT PERTAINS TO A MAN, NOR A MAN SHALL PUT ON A WOMENS GARMENT; FOR WHOEVER DOES THISE THINGS IS AN ABOMINATION TO THE LORD YOU GOD????

snip...snip..

Source (http://transgender.coolfreepages.com/article4.htm)

Its really amazing how the contents of the Bible, which is basically the creation of a number of politicaly motivated councils over the centuries, is followed so dilligently by so many people. There are even numerous versions of the same so called Bible.

One of the more famous stutterances made recently regarding transgender issues and the reply make for some more good reading.

Enjoy..

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Background: Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet...





------------------


Dear Dr. Laura:



Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them:

* When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

*I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself.

* I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

* I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

* Leviticus 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

* A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

* Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

* Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

* I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

* My friend practices the Wiccan religion. Since Exodus 22:18 states that he must be put to death, am I morally obligated to kill him as well?

* My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Leviticus 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Leviticus 20:14)?

* I read that Amnesty International is in Thailand protesting the selling of underaged girls into slavery and prostitution. Should I write my congressmen and request that we encourage these young girls to obey their masters as it states in Ephesians 6:5?

* I need to do some business on the island of Crete soon but Titus 1:12 states that people from the island of Crete are liars and lazy. Should I be careful when doing business there?

* At the church I attend, some women lead a Bible study. What is the best way to tell them to shut up? We must not have women speaking in church when 1 Timothy 2:12 forbids them to.

* Many of the women in our church wear jewelry. Since women are forbidden to wear jewelry (1 Peter 3:3) what is the best way to tell them they are going to hell?

* I want to obey 2 Thessalonians 1:26 and greet all the women at our church with a kiss. Why do I get strange looks from them when I do - especially from their husbands? What about French kissing?

* Recently, I have asked several women in my church to marry me since it is permissible for a man to have many wives (1 Kings 11:3). Why do I continually get rejected? People at church are beginning to talk.

* I suppose I will not get married since the Bible states that men ought not marry (1 Corinthians 7:1). What do you suggest?

* There are many unbelievers where I work and because we are forbidden to associate with them (1 Corinthians 4:11), I am wondering how best to tell them to keep away from me.

* Should I have the foreskin of my penis cut off? Exodus 12:48 commands that all men must do this. I would have my doctor do it but I think I can save some money by doing it myself. Any ideas on how best to do it?

* In the case of a circumcised baby who has lost his entire penis due to a botched circumcision, who has ended up having transgender sexual surgery performed upon him, who has subsequently been given female hormones and raised as a girl, who has no idea what has happened to him and who grows up with an innate confusion about his true identity, who is never told about what originally happened to him, who is most often quite odd-looking in appearance (essentially like the character "Pat" played by Julia Sweeney of Saturday Night Live television fame; what is described as a "butch" female by some people), who is often ostracized and continually insulted and taunted by society for his appearance; such a person, when he participates in what appears to be heterosexual sex, that must mean that he is really participating in homosexual sex instead, and thus, should he be treated as a homosexual and condemned to hell also, or should we give him just a little leverage in the matter, since, after all, his parents were really trying to live by God's law?

* I know that Jesus' main teaching is that we should love our neighbor as we love God. However, if I have homosexual neighbors, does this mean that I should not love them like Jesus said I should, and that I should condemn them to eternal hell, instead of allowing Jesus to do that when they die, if Jesus really wants to do that?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[racquel]

Dina, too funny.Goes to show that anything can be condemed if we look hard enough. :D

[Megan_Renee]

Hi gals,

Just a little clarification I would like to make about being Christian. Because we believe on Christ, does not negate the whole of the old testament. This does create a bit of a problem for some people, but you must remember that the law is not to be Negated (Galations). So, does this mean that we should follow all the (seemingly) crazy laws layed down in Leviticus and Deut? Well, that's a matter of prayer and faith for each of us. Paul mentions this idea when he was talking about eating meat. Jewish tradition holds a strict type of a vegitarian diet, however the followers of Christ were released from this. Not because the law was negated, but because the law was fullfilled.

Jesus dying on the cross did not negate the old testament, it fullfilled it.

So what is the point of this? Paul said that the old testament lets us know what sin is. There are a few things that talk about being clean or unclean, but since we are new creations in Christ, we are eternally cleansed because he was the perfect sacrifice for the rituals layed down in the old testament. This way, we don't need to be worried about becoming clean or unclean, but simply walk in the light that has been given to us.

This all being said, it seems that being a CD is similar to eating meat. If this aspect of your life will cause a brother (or sister) to fall away from grace, then do not dress around them. (I know, frustrating and silly, but we are responsible for our actions in this life.) On the other hand, we are also responsible for spreading the faith of Our Lord within our community.

Just as Paul did not eat meat at Jewish gatherings after God revealed to him that eating meat was ok, we must respect the wishes of those around us. Christianity is a religion of servant leadership. We become servants and allow God to work through us, thus becoming leaders like David (Oh yeah, David was a King from the Old Testament... ;-) ). But eating meat allowed Paul to go to the homes of gentiles and speak the Truth.

In Christ
Megan

PS - are there any CD'ers out there who want to start a Bible Study Thread?

[TheresaJTS]

Here are some more web site I hope you find helpful sis.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/charity.htm

http://members.toast.net/catherinedevlin/christian.html

http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/index1.html

Though I am not christian now, I was when I first began dressing so I understand the feelings you are dealing with.

[Georgette]

What I want to know who determined what men will wear and what women will wear, isn't it all what the fashion designers say is for men and what is for women. I don't think God or Moses or who ever said this is what men wear or this is what women wear as in the time everybody wore gowns or robes. This is just my observation of the dress code, and I don't think God or anybody said this is for men and this is for women.

[AnnaMaria]

I felt that I jsut had to say something at this point due to the fact that I have been having this same descussion with my wife and mother about homosexuals and cd's. First of all if you read the first four books of the New Testiment you will see that these are the ones that were writen about Jesus and what he said and did. In one of these books Jesus is talking to his desciples about the Jewish law and how it relates to them as his followers and he tells them that the highest law that they are to follow is to "Love thy neighbor as thyself", and at this point one of his desciples asks about the old law. Jesus replies that the old law has been fullfiled with his birth and later death and that it no longer applies as such. Well what about the ten commandments? They apply as part of the old law.

Now I do believe that as such the ten commandments are a good way to teach children about how they should behave and relate to the public in general but I don't believe that we should apply the law as they did in that time.

Of course that brings up the idea of how to interprut exactly what Jesus said we were suppose to do. And that is something that is relative to each person. But the way that I see the whole thing is that if you are following what Jesus said to do then there would be no need for question. There is no place that I can recall in the Bible, and believe me I have read the whole thing cover to cover several times in my life, that says anything about how you live your personal life as long as you love as he said.

And though I don't personally agree with the idea of being with a person of the same sex I see that as a personal choice that should not effect how I relate to people around me. No matter what thier orrentation. That is beside the point and therefore non of my business. Just as being a cd should be no ones business but your own. Wheather you are dressed as a man or a woman should not matter to anyone, what should matter is how you preform the tasks that are asked of you and how you relate to those around you. But above all you have to love yourself as you love others in order to make peace with yourself and be able to function in society as a person, not as a man or woman, as a person and member of society and nothing more.

How you dress simply shows the world what you feel on the inside and it covers what you don't want to show on the outside.

huggs
anna

[New-Girl]

I made my self wrong about crossdressing and stopped altogether when I was going to a church that was fundamentalist in its doctrine. I threw away all of my clothes and wig. I never brought up the subject while i was there. I had thought I got rid of it and had found the way for me. Luckily later on and on going to a second church that was not fundamentalist, I went to a bible study taught by an associate pastor that had studied thrology in college. At that time the Bible was a mystery to me but he shed light on its origins and how it was put together. Most fundamentalist bent chruches state that the Bible is the "indomitable word of God and that it is the only authority". Once i found out about the stuff the council of church leaders if the era had "left out" of the Bible it became lear to me that the Bible and its stories are writeen by man. I am not discounting anything that it says but the Bible is full of holes and flaws and is subject o misintrpretation and representation by the whims of the leaders of the churches and other religious organizations. One thing that Jesus said is that God is within us and that we are able to do what Jesus did. Most churches deify Jesus and deny that there is any meaning to what Jesus said. Churches (not all of course) preach they way we should behave in life rather than embreace who we are. If God is within us, according to the Bible, then we have teh power to make decisions in our life that are based on us having our own direct guidance from God. If that voice inside of you is wnating you to blossom as a CD. Then that is your decicsion and it is a gift given to you supported by what you decide to do with it. The only thing that is wrong is when we resist who we are. If the churhces had their way then we would all look the same and eat the same food.
I got tired of the church scene after my depth of understanding the Bible and religion way surpassed those leading and attending. God accepts us as who we are and gave us dominion over this earth to use it as our playground of creativity. You have to chance to create something that will set you free in more ways than one. I never wanted to be constricted by the sexual organs I was given. I know now that I can create whatever I want no matter what I am physically. Just the fact that most of us would be very hard to "make" out in public speaks fro itself. It is alluring and a challenge to be able to live as whatever sex we choose to be. I hope this helps and I will be watching this thread if you want to discuss this more.

[SilkenPrincess]

I made my self wrong about crossdressing and stopped altogether when I was going to a church that was fundamentalist in its doctrine. I threw away all of my clothes and wig. I never brought up the subject while i was there. I had thought I got rid of it and had found the way for me. Luckily later on and on going to a second church that was not fundamentalist, I went to a bible study taught by an associate pastor that had studied thrology in college. At that time the Bible was a mystery to me but he shed light on its origins and how it was put together. Most fundamentalist bent chruches state that the Bible is the "indomitable word of God and that it is the only authority". Once i found out about the stuff the council of church leaders if the era had "left out" of the Bible it became lear to me that the Bible and its stories are writeen by man. I am not discounting anything that it says but the Bible is full of holes and flaws and is subject o misintrpretation and representation by the whims of the leaders of the churches and other religious organizations. One thing that Jesus said is that God is within us and that we are able to do what Jesus did. Most churches deify Jesus and deny that there is any meaning to what Jesus said. Churches (not all of course) preach they way we should behave in life rather than embreace who we are. If God is within us, according to the Bible, then we have teh power to make decisions in our life that are based on us having our own direct guidance from God. If that voice inside of you is wnating you to blossom as a CD. Then that is your decicsion and it is a gift given to you supported by what you decide to do with it. The only thing that is wrong is when we resist who we are. If the churhces had their way then we would all look the same and eat the same food.
I got tired of the church scene after my depth of understanding the Bible and religion way surpassed those leading and attending. God accepts us as who we are and gave us dominion over this earth to use it as our playground of creativity. You have to chance to create something that will set you free in more ways than one. I never wanted to be constricted by the sexual organs I was given. I know now that I can create whatever I want no matter what I am physically. Just the fact that most of us would be very hard to "make" out in public speaks fro itself. It is alluring and a challenge to be able to live as whatever sex we choose to be. I hope this helps and I will be watching this thread if you want to discuss this more.


Hello New-Girl, Welcome to the forum!
I hope you will enjoy your stay here with us, the girls here are extremely accepting and understanding.
Now, to your post I would like to address myself.
You state that the Bible is full of holes and flaws. That is a statement that I have heard countless times in the past, but as of yet I have never had anyone show one of these flaws that could not be easily explained. If you would like to show me one, I will do my best to explain what may appear to be a mistake, but really isn't. To those that would like to infer that the Bible teaches that we can have slaves and the like, I would answer thusly. The Bible is very clear when it speaks that it is not wholly addressed to everyone. What I mean is that not every statement applies to every person. The parts about slavery were not addressed to us. It's analagous to saying that everything one would read in a soldier's loveletter home would apply to anyone that happened to read it. That is obviously NOT the case in the situation of the soldier's loveletter, and likewise should not be assumed in the reading of the Scripture. Care must be exercised to establish "to whom is this written and can it be applied to anyone else?". In numerous cases the answer is no. However, even these passages can be useful to us nowadays in that they indicate who we are dealing with, or should I say who is dealing with us? As far as slavery goes, no we are not permitted to have them. By what law you may ask? Why, by our own. God does show us that He instituted governments and their inherent laws to maintain order and punish evildoers. Does this give "carte blanche" to the government to do as they please? No, not really. The government will still eventually be held responsible for what they have done with the power they possess.
Okay, enough soapbox!
Next!
Love,
SilkenPrincess

[SilkenPrincess]

PS - are there any CD'ers out there who want to start a Bible Study Thread?

Hi Megan!
I would be willing! Lets see if there is anymore interested parties, OK?
Love,
SilkenPrincess

[Bernadina]

Hi gals,

snip...

PS - are there any CD'ers out there who want to start a Bible Study Thread?
YES, as long as the "Devils' Advocates" can join in in too!!

http://www.qss.ca/entomology/hotstuff.jpg

[sonora]

Hi gals,

Just a little clarification I would like to make about being Christian. Because we believe on Christ, does not negate the whole of the old testament. This does create a bit of a problem for some people, but you must remember that the law is not to be Negated (Galations). So, does this mean that we should follow all the (seemingly) crazy laws layed down in Leviticus and Deut? Well, that's a matter of prayer and faith for each of us. Paul mentions this idea when he was talking about eating meat. Jewish tradition holds a strict type of a vegitarian diet, however the followers of Christ were released from this. Not because the law was negated, but because the law was fullfilled.

Jesus dying on the cross did not negate the old testament, it fullfilled it.

So what is the point of this? Paul said that the old testament lets us know what sin is. There are a few things that talk about being clean or unclean, but since we are new creations in Christ, we are eternally cleansed because he was the perfect sacrifice for the rituals layed down in the old testament. This way, we don't need to be worried about becoming clean or unclean, but simply walk in the light that has been given to us.

This all being said, it seems that being a CD is similar to eating meat. If this aspect of your life will cause a brother (or sister) to fall away from grace, then do not dress around them. (I know, frustrating and silly, but we are responsible for our actions in this life.) On the other hand, we are also responsible for spreading the faith of Our Lord within our community.

Just as Paul did not eat meat at Jewish gatherings after God revealed to him that eating meat was ok, we must respect the wishes of those around us. Christianity is a religion of servant leadership. We become servants and allow God to work through us, thus becoming leaders like David (Oh yeah, David was a King from the Old Testament... ;-) ). But eating meat allowed Paul to go to the homes of gentiles and speak the Truth.

In Christ
Megan

PS - are there any CD'ers out there who want to start a Bible Study Thread?
Hi Megan_Renee

I was waiting for someone to say what you said. Glad you did. I am in total agreement with you. Bible Study Thread sounds interesting.

[Kerri]

Amen Megan_Renee! Sign me up as one of the willing.

Thank you for the clarification. I too was pondering how to word it similar to the way you did. Nice job!

Kerri

[racquel]

Megan count me in.

[Ava Mouse]

Just my 2 cents,...

1) I'm a Christian as Ava or my male self. I'm either a gentleman or a lady, yet always a Christian. i.e. faithful to my wife and respectful of all people. I don't mock women with how I dress and act either.

2) I don't deceive people. It's one thing to blend in and look/act the part, but misleading people is wrong when gender is important. i.e. legally, morally. I believe that the Deuteronomy verse was addressing this point.

So, go have fun!

[Kerri]

Just my 2 cents,...

1) I'm a Christian as Ava or my male self. I'm either a gentleman or a lady, yet always a Christian. i.e. faithful to my wife and respectful of all people. I don't mock women with how I dress and act either.

2) I don't deceive people. It's one thing to blend in and look/act the part, but misleading people is wrong when gender is important. i.e. legally, morally. I believe that the Deuteronomy verse was addressing this point.

-Ava Mouse

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye"; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Matthew 7:1-5 NKJV

Kerri

[Wendy me]

we always went by this for "him" in our past it worked................

you will be al wright as long as you don't fuc_ over anyone that dosen't desirve it......

belive theirs good in every one but when it comes down to it them or you fuc_ you i'am going home your going to hel_.............

now in a new chapter in my life i don't hate or judge lest not be judged......... live and let live........i am still here so god's got to have a plan for me ..........god must of loved me to keep me around this long..........so if god can over look my past whats in wearing a dress????????????don't think it matters to god

[Megan_Renee]

Hi All! I've posted the Bible Study thread in the Lounge! Hope all with come!

Megan
--,--`--@

[sherri]

Suzanna dear, it sounds like you are quite young. Am I right? Before you start making any life choices, maybe you should have this discussion with a spiritual advisor more qualified than most of us here, sweetie. Just be sure to seek out someone truly spiritual rather than just religious. There is a difference.