So, Is this Illegal?

[Carroll]

We played a gig tonight at a bar. During the show our lead guitar plater got a birthday surprise. The birthday fairy came to visit. He is an old, slightly mentally disabled drunk that goes to every show we do. He came in wearing a blue dress, Blondie wig and a purse. It was a great joke and everybody loved it. After about 10 minutes, one of the girls that helps watch over him was told that she must take him outside and have him change back to his clothes. The reason? The bar tender didn't want him dressed in the bar because people would think he was a transvestite.
So I ask, is that illegal....I know it is, according to New York State anti-discrimination laws. Because if this, the bar does not want us back...which is OK by me. Place sucked anyways!

Carroll

[Stephenie S]

Carroll,

If he is old and slightly mentally disabled, the bartender may not have wanted people to think he was a transvestite for his own safety.

Could be.

Lovies,
Steph

[Joy Carter]

You can refuse service to anyone you feel that would be disruptive. A Cd in a bar full of drunks would be very disruptive, and near deadly for the CD. I don't think it would be discrimatory to ask that of a customer.

[trannie T]

The original post said that everybody enjoyed the guy. Sounds like pure discrimination on the part of the bartender. I don't know New York laws but you might call the civil rights division of the Attorney General.
I can't agree with Joy. If a person is disruptive they can be excluded, if someone thinks they might be disruptive it is discrimination. Change the word "crossdresser" to African American and see how it sounds, "An African American in a bar full of drunks would be very disruptive. . ."
A crossdresser has the same rights as any other citizen.

[NickyJane]

A crossdresser has the same rights as any other citizen.


:iagree:

[Helen MC]

In the UK in former times when a TV was apprehended by a Policeman they would be charged with "Conduct liable to occasion a Breach of the Peace", even if an actual Breach of the Peace had not taken place and nobody had complained about them. Nowadays in most areas the Police have a more tolerant attiitude and unless trouble did occur then they would be left alone. However, with the exception of discrimination on grounds of colour or disability a pub (bar) landlord can bar anyone they chose and need not give reasons.

With the UKs relatively new Laws which ban discrimination against Homosexuals it might be possible for a TV or CD dressed en-femme to use these if barred from a pub.

[kristiana]

the bar tender must have been archy bunker:heehee:

[Marla S]

He is an old, slightly mentally disabled drunk that goes to every show we do. He came in wearing a blue dress, Blondie wig and a purse. It was a great joke and everybody loved it. After about 10 minutes, one of the girls that helps watch over him ...
Having worked with mentally disabled people myself, I have a tiny problem reading this, because it reads a bit like he was made a fool.
As a bar tender I might have said something too.

[Carroll]

Having worked with mentally disabled people myself, I have a tiny problem reading this, because it reads a bit like he was made a fool.
As a bar tender I might have said something too.

I can understand your concern, but there is a bit more
He is very mildly mental. He was asked if he wanted to do this while he was sober. When asked, he did make a interesting comment though. He said "I get to come out of the closet tonight"

We, as a band, will never let anything happen to "Bomber". There has been a few times that a fight has almost started because somebody gave him crap, though it happens very rarely. He enjoys being with us because we treat him a lot better than his on family. They only like him because he gets SSI so THEY have money to us.

[Penny]

:yt:

:yt:

[Wenda]

. Place sucked anyways!

Carroll
That says it all!

[EricaCD]

Although I am not a civil rights specialist (and this should NOT be considered legal advice), my semi-educated guess is that the bartender acted legally. I'm still not quite clear as to his intentions so I will leave aside questions of whether he acted reprehensibly.

A private establishment has the right to refuse service to any patron, unless that refusal is based on certain specific criteria: race, gender, age, disability, religion, national origin. I suspect, but am not certain, that NY law offers some protection against exclusion based on sexual orientation. However, I do not believe that NY law currently offers protection based on presented gender. (If I am mistaken and someone is aware that NY law does offer this protection, please let me know and I will happily stand corrected!)

If I am correct, however, then the bar was within its legal, if not moral, rights. The patron could probably be asked to leave for wearing a blue dress. For that matter, I could be asked to leave for wearing a pink tie, for not wearing a green hat, or because the bartender dislikes people who are over 6' tall (or under 7' tall for that matter).

Erica

[Krystal Lee]

It sounds like the old guy was enjoying himself and the bar tender was a little uncomfortable with him in a dress. How ever it dosen't sound like they asked him to go, just change.

Now girls wouldn't you be happy to run right out and change outfits? Not sure how you could cry discrimination, if the let him back in.

The establishment, I would think, would have the right to ask someone inappropriatly dressed if they thought it might cause a problem. If a woman came in wearing a dress so short you could see her panties, or a guy came in in leather and chains, if this was not the correct venue for that type of dress then I think the bay was within its rights.

All that being said, unless there was a direct problem, I think the actions of the bar were reprehensible.

Lets hope nothing like that happens to any of us.

Hugs Krystal.

[Joy Carter]

You can refuse service to anyone you feel that would be disruptive. A Cd in a bar full of drunks would be very disruptive, and near deadly for the CD. I don't think it would be discrimatory to ask that of a customer.

To clarafy I was not pointing out the CD in particular. It may not even be her fault but you can bet your sweet bippy that some drunk will say or do somthing. It would be wise on the bartenders part to avoid trouble by asking her to leave. Or should he ask the whole bar to leave first +? They are in buiness to make money and to support themselves. I have much expierience in the area of behavior in bars (retired police officer) so it would be prudent to have her leave. I'd say the same to anyone who I deamed a potential problem knowing full well what might happen. Why would anyone put themselves in that position just to prove a point.

[CaptLex]

A private establishment has the right to refuse service to any patron . . . . (If I am mistaken and someone is aware that NY law does offer this protection, please let me know and I will happily stand corrected!)

If I am correct, however, then the bar was within its legal, if not moral, rights. The patron could probably be asked to leave for wearing a blue dress. For that matter, I could be asked to leave for wearing a pink tie, for not wearing a green hat, or because the bartender dislikes people who are over 6' tall (or under 7' tall for that matter).
You got it right, Erica. I'm not saying I agree with it, but we're talking about laws.

Also, I don't know what part of NY State this took place, but I assume the bartender is familiar with the clientele and what their reactions would be. Even here in NYC (which is usually more liberal than other parts of the state), you might get a different reaction at a bar in the Village than you would on the upper east side.

[Karren H]

Probably not legal but many places have dress codes. Jacket and tie....no shirt or shoes no service.......cute blue dress and your out of here!! Hehe

Love Karren

[RikkiOfLA]

Discussing the legal rights people have (or don't have) in bars is really difficult. I'm not a lawyer and can't give you legal advice. But I can talk a little bit about the other side of the issue.

For a bar to be successful, it has to create a certain atmosphere. And if anything seriously upsets that atmosphere, the regulars will leave and go elsewhere (even in a small town, there are other bars nearby), and the bar will lose money and have to close. The bartender decided that Bomber in a dress upset that atmosphere. And your band, at least to his thinking, somehow incited Bomber to do that. So Bomber has to change (or leave) and your band won't be invited back.

Does Bomber have a legal right to wear a dress in New York? Of course he does. But the bar has a legal right to refuse service to anyone. In fact, they have a moral (maybe legal) obligation to refuse service to some people, such as those who are already dangerously drunk and want to drink more.

If the bar drives away too many people, of course, they'll starve. So how closely they can control the atmosphere depends a lot on how successful they are. A really successful nightclub can have their potential customers line up at the door, and the bouncer goes down the line looking the people over and saying "you, you, and you, go on in." The rest of the people may stand there all night.

My suggestion would be to take your band, and Bomber, and your friends, and go find a better bar. Chances are, there is one nearby.

Hope this helps.

Rikki

[Carroll]

My suggestion would be to take your band, and Bomber, and your friends, and go find a better bar. Chances are, there is one nearby.



We wont be going back there at all. Seems the bartender had a lot of something up her a$$. She made comments about and to the band that basically were derogatory. She didn't like the way we would talk in between song, She wasn't too keen on how the lead guitar player looked (he has long hair and scruffy looking...like a rock and roller) She didn't like us from the second we came in, but was obligated by a verbal contract to have us play for the 4 hours and pay us

[Lindsay Marie]

Maybe the bartender was afraid that your friend was better looking than her perhaps? Seems to me like she was a bit shallow as well.

[Carroll]

Maybe the bartender was afraid that your friend was better looking than her perhaps? Seems to me like she was a bit shallow as well.

Oh God no! He was, quite frankly, The uglest thing on two legs...ever!

[Caz]

We wont be going back there at all. Seems the bartender had a lot of something up her a$$. She made comments about and to the band that basically were derogatory. She didn't like the way we would talk in between song, She wasn't too keen on how the lead guitar player looked (he has long hair and scruffy looking...like a rock and roller) She didn't like us from the second we came in, but was obligated by a verbal contract to have us play for the 4 hours and pay us


In the 32 years that I've been gigging in bars & pubs, I've encountered some pretty strange owners/managers/bar staff:witsend:

Staff that take an instant dislike to the band, or members thereof, for no paticular reason ???

Thoses 4 hour gigs seem to take forever....just waitin to get paid, lugging ya gear out, bidding good riddance and driving home.

Yep ! Its always good when those strange gigs are over:)



Lotza Luv


Caz

[AmberTG]

Isn't it just sooo much fun dealing with bar owners as a band trying to get gigs? A lot of the ones I dealt with over the years used their own likes and dislikes and really didn't care what their customers thought about a band. Also, a lot of the owners I dealt with were drunks themselves, which makes it even more fun.
Amber

[MsJanessa]

It is illegal in Maine