Define feminine personality

[Tree GG]

I'm really not clear on this feminine/masculine personality thing (other than obvious biology) and would like some hetero-CD comments.

I understand society's stereotypes & expectations of each gender and appreciate the negative feedback someone who crosses those fuzzy grey lines may receive. Many species of animal have the male colorful & decorated while the female is "drab". I'm not sure either gender of human w/o clothes could be considered more ornamental than the other, and I'm not questioning "feeling pretty" or sexuality.

Example: Several years ago the hubby & I had a month long debate over returning white bathroom fixtures and exchanging for bone at a $400 premium. White to bone?! You're kidding, right? But he wasn't & eventually we paid & returned to get bone in the new bathroom instead of white. Is that a "feminine" personality trait on his part - I really don't think so. I think he's just a perfectionist which is neither male nor female.

What I don't understand are the repeated comments by CDers that they want to be in touch, express, demonstrate the feminine side of their personality. Huh??? What components of your personality do you find feminine that can't be expressed because of your clothing? When in masculine mode of day to day life, do you really repress many reactions/responses to a given situation because you feel it's "unmanly"?

[Lisa Golightly]

Several years ago the hubby & I had a month long debate over returning white bathroom fixtures and exchanging for bone at a $400 premium. White to bone?! You're kidding, right? But he wasn't & eventually we paid & returned to get bone in the new bathroom instead of white. Is that a "feminine" personality trait on his part - I really don't think so. I think he's just a perfectionist which is neither male nor

Actually that reminds me of quite a few men I know, and in their case it wasn't pursuit of perfection more primal DIY bonding. As far as I'm concerned if it doesn't leak then yay! :)

[JoAnnDallas]

My wife mentioned that she would like to redo the kitchen. I said, fine no problem, find a general contractor becuase I'm not doing it. For years I did DIY remodeling on every house we have own. I have rebuilt a 12'X40" deck, built a 60'LX5"H retaining wall, filled it with over 5,000 pounds of topsoil, Planted so many trees, bushes, flowers, and ect, I have lost count. Inclosed a 12'X12' patio. When we moved to Dallas, I told her that I was getting too old to do manual labor like I had done in the past. LOL

[Lady Jayne]

Hi Tree believe me men are tought from a very early age to repress thier feelings "big boys don't cry" how many times have you heard that? If they enjoy helping their mum cooking or cleaning thats a girls job and see a young boy playing with a doll and OMG!!!! he's going to be gay!!! little boys get dressed up and they look very smart while little girls are "beautiful and pretty" how I used to long to be told I was pretty to feel pretty, and it isn't just children men are allowed to grow flowers but it's the womans job to enjoy them. Romantic films are soppy, there are so many ways we are encouraged to repress our feelings it's a wonder we are not all like Mr Spock. we are tought we have to be Bigger,stronger, faster than the other boys, For me being femanine is a way to free myself from the shackles of masculitiny and be the warm emotional caring person inside.

[Danielle2]

Based on many conversations with GGs, I don't think most of us find it necessary to supress our feminine traits while in male mode. There are occassions when we find it necessary to display a "macho" front but it usually does not last long. In my experience, I find most GGs are very appreciative of the feminine side (maybe just a compliment about new lipstick without any sexual overtones). Many of these ladies become very open with our conversations and will talk about things normally reserved for conversations with other GGs.

[Elly]

ok here goes... when i was living as a guy i was calous, rough, rude, i rarely showed any affection, it even annoyed my wife that when i hugged her i used only one arm and loosely at that, now that i no longer live or identify as male my wife has noticed a marked improvement in my personality like i'm more open with my feelings, i talk, and am more affectionate, traits that i supressed in favor of the other male traits, cuz i thaught society expected me to act in that rough, gruff manner in witch most males express themselves, i believe when a CD puts on her clothes she often takes on the feminine manerisims of a loving affectionate person, then again supress them when back in drab making it a personality changing experience every time they dress, and when one changes their personality they change their perspective on things as well, thus they create defining barriers between their masculine and femanine selves...

[loki_uk]

Other GG's tell me I have a noticeable feminine side, personally I just like to wear the clothes and blokey things like kilts just wouldn't feel the same

[Tree GG]

As far as I'm concerned if it doesn't leak then yay! :)

That's exactly what I said. If it flushes & drains - I'm good!

[DanaStrauss]

Maybe "femanine" isn't the right way to put it. Maybe "not masculine" is better, at least in my case.

The hetero community has these concepts of what a man is supposed to be. Men are supposed to be strong and supportive, handy around the house, more logical less emotional, and agressive in every single miniscule aspect of our lives, from the bedroom to the boardroom. I'm more "effeminite" naturally, walking with a switch and generally being softer and more social. Who did my girlfriends cheat on me with an leave me for? Big studly guys, some of whom ran with gangs and some who were physically and mentally abusive to the point of needing restraining orders against them. That's what hetero women seem to want. Look at the backlash when metrosexuality was becoming big. I kept reading these interviews with women saying "I don't want him to be *pretty*...I want my man to be a *man*".

Even my wife, who knew and accepted that I was a CD from day one, still wants me to be the aggressor in bed and swoons when I strut around in tight jeans and a muscle tee because that's what's she finds sexy in a man. It's still my job to step in and fix a flat tire or leaky faucet while she acts all helpless and impotent.

I put a lot of effort into learning how to "be a man" when I was younger so I would be the kind of man women find attractive, and it worked. I went from "I just like you as a friend" to "here's my number, call me". But I need a release from all that pressure to be Mr. Studboy all the time. I need to shift to almost a polar opposite for some relief. Dana used to be Dave's opposite: soft, submissive, beautiful, and artistic. Lately, though, I've been resisting these expected roles and letting myself back away from having to be Mr. Take Control. Dana, oddly enough, has been more agressive and confident. Will the two ever converge in the middle? I doubt it, but who knows what the future holds?

[bobbipoet]

If I tried to sum it up in one sentence, I would say it would be this:

Allowing myself to give without expecting something in return.

Maybe you don't think that's a feminine thing, but being raised male, with other boys, it is something that gets drilled into you. Boys try to get others, including other boys, to do certain types of things for them. Not necessarily domestic stuff, like preparing food, but all kinds of things.

Girls, on the other hand, are raised to "make someone happy." Maybe not always consciously, but that's a theme.

So you might legimately ask why crossdressing was needed for me to realize this. I'm afraid I don't have an answer for that. This realization might have come in some other way, but it wasnt until I became accepting of myself that I found I could truly give of myself.

I think it might have something do to with this: if you can accept yourself as a crossdresser - which society (and most beginning crossdressers) views as an extremely shameful and humiliating act - if you can accept that about yourself, everything else that might be viewed as "unmanly" or "humiliating" seems trivial - so it becomes easier to accept all these other traits that you used to "not allow."

Whether those traits are universally viewed as "feminine" is almost irrelevant from this perspective.

[Bonnie D]

Personally I don't think I change much when I'm dressed. Yes, the way I walk and move around but that's because of what I'm wearing. Heels changes the way you walk, a skirt or dress changes how you sit or bend to pick up something. Because I'm married I have responsibilities that are male oriented; take care of the cars, the lawn, repairs, bug killer (lol), protect the family (at least make them feel safe). Because these don't take up much of my time, I help my SO with dinners, dishwashing, vacuuming, dusting, tub cleaning, sports laundry and grocery shopping.

I cry easily but always hide it. I've often wanted to ask women about their makeup or comment on how nice something they're wearing is but won't because it would appear that I'm hitting on them. Which I definitely wouldn't be. I like talking to both men and women. I like books that have either a man or a woman as central characters, all types of movies from the very violent to ones that make you cry out of joy or sadness. Being a man causes me to still hide a few things of who I am.

Bonnie

[Maria2004]

What components of your personality do you find feminine that can't be expressed because of your clothing? When in masculine mode of day to day life, do you really repress many reactions/responses to a given situation because you feel it's "unmanly"?

I’m a former US Marine, Airborne qualified, with spare macho to burn. While on temp assignment to Ft Benning in 1982 during an off duty drunk fest, I had a young Army Spec 4 try and out drink me in Jack Daniel’s, I was a Sgt at the time. I let him try since I knew I would win. Sure enough he retired from the competition completely trashed and I was still standing. A few hours later I was awaked from my stupor by his roomie, he explained to me that this kid was in bad shape from all the alcohol he had consumed and was a bit worried. By “stereotype”, I should have dressed him down for being a dumbass, thrown him head first into a shower stall, turned on the cold water and forced him to puke. But I was still buzzing from the booze and my guard was down and I didn’t handle it that way. I felt concern, compassion, and responsibility for this child I had led into this condition, I treated him gently, sat under the shower with him, tried to get him to vomit and held his head so he wouldn’t drown in it, tried to comfort him, all the while his buddy was standing by watching with this “look” on his face. After that it was assumed I was a homosexual, which I later disproved, but I was still weird never the less. I was more careful after that, to act out my gender role more appropriately.

[Charleen]

To put a definition on this, is like trying to grab a handful of wind. if i had only one word to use, it would be softer. Softer in all things, and yet that is a stereotype. Since I embraced being Lily, I am a gentler soul. The woman in my life that I have looked up to, were all gentle. They could be tough and strong when needed, and even then, reacteddifferent than men in similar situations.
In my case, as I've always felt I should have been a girl, I have felt like I feel and that to me is feminine. I had to learn growing up to "act like a man". Tough, strong, no emotions allowed to show, especially sadness, or pain which I was supposed to "suck up". All being contrary to the way I felt inside.
Today I have the freedom to be me, and be Lily. I am today a much nicer person, and people have commented on that to me. I call myself feminine today, even when I have to show up as Charlie, which is just a name I answer to today.
All I know is how I feel, and that is very difficult, if not impossible to express in words.
Love and xxxx, Lily

[Tree GG]

Allowing myself to give without expecting something in return.

Whether those traits are universally viewed as "feminine" is almost irrelevant from this perspective.

Good points. Giving to feel good about yourself is a quality in all good people. I like the "it good be worse" analogy.


A few hours later I was awaked from my stupor by his roomie, he explained to me that this kid was in bad shape from all the alcohol he had consumed and was a bit worried. By “stereotype”, I should have dressed him down for being a dumbass, thrown him head first into a shower stall, turned on the cold water and forced him to puke. But I was still buzzing from the booze and my guard was down and I didn’t handle it that way. I felt concern, compassion, and responsibility for this child I had led into this condition, I treated him gently, sat under the shower with him, tried to get him to vomit and held his head so he wouldn’t drown in it, tried to comfort him,

Hmmmm, good example. I personally respect the way you handled it better. Wait & dress down the kid when he's out of danger.




But I need a release from all that pressure to be Mr. Studboy all the time.

I'm not being critical, but it sounds like you're defining yourself by how women react to you sexually. Is there any other aspect of you life (not necessarily associated w/ women) where you feel you can't act/respond in your preferred way because of your gender?

[Michelle Hart]

I should have dressed him down for being a dumbass, thrown him head first into a shower stall, turned on the cold water and forced him to puke.

How a MAN handles a problem....



I felt concern, compassion, and responsibility, I treated him gently, sat under the shower with him, tried to get him to vomit and held his head so he wouldn’t drown in it, tried to comfort him.

How a WOMAN resolves a challenge....


There is a glowing example of what "we" experience. Men are not brutes but we are raised to be. Compasion is a "weakness" for men and men can never be waek.

Ohh but women can, and that is the difference. Hust watch both closley and observe how they interact with each other and you will see it.

[Jillian310]

When I was @ 14 or so and living with relatives, for reasons unknown to me then or now, when I found myself alone in the house I dug my female cousin's panties out of her stuff and wore them. Was I CD'ing or fetishing or just experimenting sexually, I have no idea. Fast forward to @ 6 or 7 years ago (I am now 69). I had reason to contact a former girlfriend. During the course of that conversation, which was on a purely social basis, she mentioned to me that she would have liked to see me wearing pantyhose when we were together.
That caused me to get a few pairs and try them on. I liked the feeling. Then in a few subsequent conversations she suggested other garments and 'things', which I also tried. From there I have developed into what I consider to be full CDing, at least part time. When dressed I do feel that I have a 'different' personality that others have described on this and many other strings. Moreover, even though I wear panties 24/7, have long hair and wear earrings full time now, I feel the compulsion to fully dress and assume a femine personna also described many times in other threads here.

Am I a latent (fill in the blank)? I don't know, and frankly am not that concerned to label it or me. I just know that I am now what I am, and consider not having these feelings and yearnings when I was younger and thinner as a tremendose gap in my life. I have a sneaking feeling that I am drawn to much younger styles and hem lines as some sort of unconcious throwback to that teen experience wearing those panties. But whatever, at my age I intend to live and enjoy the 'life' as long as I can.

[DanaStrauss]

I'm not being critical, but it sounds like you're defining yourself by how women react to you sexually. Is there any other aspect of you life (not necessarily associated w/ women) where you feel you can't act/respond in your preferred way because of your gender?

I'd say that romantic situations are really the only ones I had difficulty dealing with internally. I just couldn't handle the rejection anymore, especially seeing the animals I was getting dumped for all the time.

I could handle things like rumors about my sexuality spreading through my high school and college. I could deal with a roommate moving out because he was afraid I was going to come on to him. I could live with strangers yelling "faggot" as I walked around town in my silk shirt and long hair. Those things were easier to deal with because I could write off the people involved as idiots and go hang out with friends who liked me the way I was. In fact, I still have to steel myself against comments when I go out to concerts and clubs as Dana because I still get catcalls and insults no matter how conservatively I'm dressed. But romantic situations, by their very nature, are different. Their impact is much more personal than a ten second interaction with some stranger on the street.

Now, that's not to say that life as a young effeminite straight man is peachy keen either. Car mechanics will treat you differently if you're wearing a clean white poet shirt and slacks vs. a pair of grease-stained jeans and a muscle tee, just like they have a reputation for treating women differently from men. Jerk bosses will try to intimidate you because they don't think you'll fight back. Oddly enough, by flexing my muscles and getting in one boss's face, I earned his respect and had fewer problems. But I had to summon my inner macho man to do it. In fact, people in general will try to dominate you. Religious folk will go out of their way to "share the message" with you because you obviously like a guy in leather to do you up the butt, I mean you *are* one of those people, right? Imagine their surprise when I told them what they had to say was interesting, but I like girls!

These days, most of the gender role issues I have are related to my marriage, because my wife is my partner in almost every thing I do. I've also put on some weight & musicle since high school & college, so when I'm effeminite in "guy mode" I come across as just being a flamboyant, stylish rock star type (still recognizeable as a hetero man with a woman on my arm, so I guess people think that's ok).

So I guess to sum up this really long post, I've had problems over the years being an effeminite male, but the only ones that really bothered me involved romantic/sexual situations because, well, being lonely sucks.

[CarmenG]

I’m a former US Marine, Airborne qualified, with spare macho to burn. While on temp assignment to Ft Benning in 1982 during an off duty drunk fest, I had a young Army Spec 4 try and out drink me in Jack Daniel’s, I was a Sgt at the time. I let him try since I knew I would win. Sure enough he retired from the competition completely trashed and I was still standing. A few hours later I was awaked from my stupor by his roomie, he explained to me that this kid was in bad shape from all the alcohol he had consumed and was a bit worried. By “stereotype”, I should have dressed him down for being a dumbass, thrown him head first into a shower stall, turned on the cold water and forced him to puke. But I was still buzzing from the booze and my guard was down and I didn’t handle it that way. I felt concern, compassion, and responsibility for this child I had led into this condition, I treated him gently, sat under the shower with him, tried to get him to vomit and held his head so he wouldn’t drown in it, tried to comfort him, all the while his buddy was standing by watching with this “look” on his face. After that it was assumed I was a homosexual, which I later disproved, but I was still weird never the less. I was more careful after that, to act out my gender role more appropriately.


CORPSMAN UP !!!!!! those should of been your first words sarge....I was an 8404 stationed at the supply depot in Albany Georgia just 84 miles away..... SEMPER FI...............:cheers:

[WendyCD]

I'm really not clear on this feminine/masculine personality thing


Neither am I. Seriously. I am not picking a fight or trying to quote you out of context...

Speaking for myself, I agree with what you said - most personality types are not gender specific. And really, I think, Human males and females are more alike than we are different, when it comes to our essence, personality, spirit, whatever.

I know that my wife tells me she likes to wear sexy, feminine clothes. So do I. We're not very different there, either. What happened, growing up, to make me want to dress like her? Why? That may be seriously weird, but it just is.

We are not that different.

Hope this came out right...I've been wanting to (try) say this in response to some earlier posts, but can never get it right enough to post.

[Rachel Morley]

What I don't understand are the repeated comments by CDers that they want to be in touch, express, demonstrate the feminine side of their personality. Huh??? What components of your personality do you find feminine that can't be expressed because of your clothing? Well I guess the short answer for me is nothing! There is nothing in my personality that can't be expressed because of what clothes I may, or may not, be wearing. But there are times when being in a certain mind-set can be influenced and enhanced by external assistance, and the clothes do that for me. Women's clothes grip you in different places on your body (especially underwear) and the textures, colors, and styles make you feel different about yourself. It's almost like they give you permission to be something that we're told from an early age that we (guys) are not supposed to be. The social conditioning that we experience all our lives makes it difficult to act in a way that is percived as feminine, so the clothes act as a trigger to help us overcome those inhibitions that we have.

It might be asked, because I know that these clothes are made for women, and I feel different when I wear them, does this mean the clothes must we be "making me feminine?" No. They don't make me feminine, but they do make me feel pretty, and feeling pretty makes me feel less manly. Feeling less manly (for me anyway) makes me not want to do anything guyish. I wouldn't want to fix my car in a sweater set and capris for example (not that fixing a car is inherently manly, it just feels like it to me :D ) So what I'm saying is by wearing the clothes, it puts me in a different mind-set. A mind-set that influences certain personality traits in me and (in my mind at least) makes me feel better about myself whilst nurturing behavior that I think suits me and also makes me feel happy.

[Jammie Lyann]

Not sure that remodeling is so much a manly thing or not , I have done my fare share of it, including adding 2 sheds an a fence to the property, and landscaping, however I would like to believe that I inherited these qualities from my mother
(may she RIP) , being that she spent the majority of her life doing just that type of work,
I also spent 4 years in the Navy an another 8 in the Army National Guard
I work at a refinery have for 14 years , every one out there is either X military or runs a Ranch on the side, redneck vill if you ever saw it. :tongueout so much testosterone running around there makes one want to gag

So does one act in accordance to his/her environment , Yes , when I’m with friends , ones that I’ve known for years I loosen up , they just think I’m me an don’t question how I act, though I have gotten a couple looks from them on occasion ( none of them know ).

My wife ask the same question is it a sexual thing , it may have some sexual/romantic aspects to dressing up , but being that my wife has said that she is not in to women there will be nothing sexual/romantic foreseeable in the near future For Ivy ,

For why I do what I do , I Cannot honestly say, all I know is it is who I am an how I feel inside, an that part of me is woman an likes to show it from time to time :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

It's just a conscious choice with me, Tree. As you know, I've been telling about getting more in touch with my masculine self lately. My point is to show that I'm equally proud of that part of myself. A lot of gals downplay that as being a "disadvantage" whereas others, especially the F T M CD's see it as desirable. What I'm finding out is that I feel equally at "home" being either Richard or Ericka. I actually identify more with with the F T M's and have a good idea where they are coming from. It was building in me for awhile and I hinted a lot about my "tomboy" aspect as Ericka. Being all "sugar and spice" as Ericka and too "tooti fruiti" kind of makes me sick simply because I have to be myself. If that includes "locker room" talk and smoking Havanas as Ericka, so be it. You don't know how many times I've been accused of not acting like a "lady" by my CD sisters. Now that I'm in Richard "mode", they seem to think my behavior is acceptable as if guys have the edge when it comes to "crudeness". Whatever. That perception will change believe me. My goal is to show everyone I'm myself regardless of what I look like. The other thing is that I control who I am not vice versa. When I'm Ericka, the gal does tend to want to take over which is another reason I'm going to be Richard for awhile. Mainly to convince myself that I can function as one or the other and both. The bottom line is that whoever I present myself as at any particular time is totally my choice.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[annephorcy]

If I may, I'd like to interject another thought into this discussion.

First off, please don't get me wrong. I think this is a perfectly valid and important question. It's one I've discussed several times with some wonderful women of my acquaintance.

But here's the thing: Isn't this just a little bit like asking, 'How is life there on planet Mars different from life here on planet Venus?' when you're someone who's never been to Mars, asking someone who's never been to Venus?

[Tree GG]

But here's the thing: Isn't this just a little bit like asking, 'How is life there on planet Mars different from life here on planet Venus?' when you're someone who's never been to Mars, asking someone who's never been to Venus?

No offense taken. You may be absolutely correct & I may never understand why no matter how much data/perspectives I gather. And it's entirely possible that there is no logical explanation. I want to try, though (otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum).

Aside from academic curiousity, it has changed my 26 yr marriage, and has apparently effected many lives - both positively & negatively. I see my husband as a wonderful person 1st. The man part is secondary, and now sometimes tirtiary:straightface: I hear his comments about being pretty, softer, letting out a sensitive side that he doesn't feel he has been able to most his life. The man (person) I love is a guy that has never struck another human being, built snowmen, played tackle football in the living room, taught his daughters to throw a frisby/fish/ride dirt bikes/hunt/ski/love Colts football, kissed boo-boos to make them better, added funny voices to the bed-time stories, loves & is faithful to his wife, makes her feel beautiful & special, etc, etc. All this was done while dressed as a man who did guy things and can be the crudest, rudest guy's guy you've ever seen.

How much more sensitivity is there? From my perspective he is a good person, regardless of skirt length. I've seen many comments here from Cders who say they didn't/don't make very good men. I find that so sad! Why such a negative masculine self-image and how does enfemme fix that?

I may never get my head around it and either way will not change a thing nor do I expect it to. I believe the comments I've rec'd to this thread have been very sincere and some included excellent, specific examples of how they want to behave, but feel they can't in drab. I may have never been to Venus & you never to Mars, but I think if we describe the places clearly, we can at least start to share the experience.

[Penny]

First of all, I absolutely adore women. I think most CDs view women objectively rather that as an object. Having said that, I don't crossdress to get in touch with my feminine side. I believe both my masculine and feminine
sides are expressed daily. While I might appear to look feminine or masculine
the truth is I'm still me, a combination of both. I crossdress as a means to emulate those who I adore and because it is sensational(see my July thread).
In short, I am in touch with me! I will admit that crossdressing can and has been confusing and I didn't get here overnight. It is very difficult to separate feelings from thoughts and things and thoughts and things from feelings.

[annephorcy]

-pounce!-

Gee, Tree ...

Are you perhaps saying that if we; a) try to appreciate people we don't know so well and love people we do for who they are, and at the same time at least try to accept who they want to be with the same understanding and respect we ask for ourselves ...

And b) keep the lines of communication open no matter how hard and painful it sometimes is ...

... that 'things' will be better more often than they'll be worse?

If you are saying something at least something like that (and I think you are), I would say you're a very thoughtful (one might even venture 'wise') person.

I would also say that's certainly true here on Mars. I bet it's true on Venus too, though I've never actually been there. :D

EDIT: Allow me to clarify - I would call 'trying to figure it out' a from of 'keeping the lines of communication open'. Thus the (somewhat obscure) line of my logic.

[Tree GG]

-pounce!-



I would also say that's certainly true here on Mars. I bet it's true on Venus too, though I've never actually been there. :D



Ok, now you're just teasing me :D

I'm not trying to be wise or save the universe. I just sincerely wanted to know from the people who do it, what a man can't do in drab that he can do in drag (excluding sex issues) that he/she finds more expressive of who he/she is. (I apologize for the hubby ramble, but I do think he's special).

I honestly cannot think of a time in my life that I felt repressed because I couldn't do/be/act/behave how I wanted because I was a girl and not a man. Just looking for that common frame of reference I guess.

[Marla S]

How much more sensitivity is there? From my perspective he is a good person, regardless of skirt length. I've seen many comments here from Cders who say they didn't/don't make very good men. I find that so sad! Why such a negative masculine self-image and how does enfemme fix that?




I'm not trying to be wise or save the universe. I just sincerely wanted to know from the people who do it, what a man can't do in drab that he can do in drag (excluding sex issues) that he/she finds more expressive of who he/she is. (I apologize for the hubby ramble, but I do think he's special).

I honestly cannot think of a time in my life that I felt repressed because I couldn't do/be/act/behave how I wanted because I was a girl and not a man. Just looking for that common frame of reference I guess.
It is terrible hard to find an analogy that is comparable to CDing, but if we leave the sexual aspects out it is predominately a (cross)cultural thing IMO.
Maybe a bit like a wanting to be an native American or a cowboy. Same actions and similar thougths and feelings get a whole different meaning within a different cultural frame and produce new thoughts feelings and actions (I. e. smoking a pipe or hunting have a different meaning in the western or american indian culture).
There is a certain type of feminine and a masculine culture within the western culture and it makes a difference if you belong to the one or other.
I. e. it makes a difference in the perception if a man or a woman does the home decoration or cooking. A man will always be the outsider of a women's talk (and vice versa) etc.
Most obvious, and the reason for this forum, is if a man wants to participate to the feminine dress code. This is no-no even if he looks better than some woman do. He just doesn't belong to the feminine culture by definition. Period. If he likes to belong to nevertheless --> pervert.

If one is able to produce an atmosphere of feminity, be it by over-stereotyping, this produces a "feminine feeling" like a cowboy costume produces some "cowboy-feeling".

The negative male self-image might not be that negative in principle, but it might be the wrong or incomplete one for an individual - you want to be an american indian but get a cowboy costume from your parents instead.

[Roberta Lynn]

I honestly cannot think of a time in my life that I felt repressed because I couldn't do/be/act/behave how I wanted because I was a girl and not a man. Just looking for that common frame of reference I guess.

MY :2c:
I think most of society puts more restrictions and expectations on men than they do on women.

If you change you statement to. I honestly cannot think of a time in my life that I felt repressed because I couldn't do/be/act/behave how I wanted because I was a man and not a girl.
I don't think most of us with a strong feminine side could say it.
Just my :2c:
:love:

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

It's really a matter of things society deems "masculine" and "feminine."

I'd suggest checking out Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man," (http://www.amazon.com/Self-Made-Man-Womans-Journey-Manhood/dp/0670034665/sr=8-1/qid=1160029023/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-4838195-0738321?ie=UTF8&s=books) which is account of her posing as a month for 18 months.

It's good-but-flawed book, but I think you'll find some interesting insights to your question about what sorts of things men feel they can't express as men. Put it this way, the emotional constraints she felt while trying to "be a man!" were a major reason for her nervous breakdown at the end of the project. You can get an idea of what the book is about from the review (http://www.adahlshouse.com/2006/02/05/“self-made-man”/) on my blog.

[Satrana]

When in masculine mode of day to day life, do you really repress many reactions/responses to a given situation because you feel it's "unmanly"?

Absolutely, masculinity is based upon avoiding anything remotely judged to be feminine in nature. The masculine idea is that any man who behaves in a feminine manner degrades himself. The masculine idea is that moving towards femininity is a backwards, regressive position certainly not a progressive one.

Masculine men live in fear of being judged feminine - either because of homophobia or fear of sissification - i.e. having your manhood removed leaving behind only "inferior" feminine characteristics. Masculinity equals strength, femininity equals weakness.

Many CDs feel that they can only express feminine feelings when they are dressed. The uniform of a woman allows them to express themselves in a way that they feel inhibited to doing while en drab.

[Kate Simmons]

It's funny what I've read thus far, Tree. I understand where many are coming from with their feelings. Problem is, I wanted more and that's why I'm pursuing being who I am. Many say they have the best of both worlds, which is fine. In MY world, however, I am "allowed" to be be whoever I want to be at any given time. I give myself "permission" to be Richard or Ericka or both at the same time. In the end I am a person after all but a person who is not afraid of my feelings (masculine or feminine) and a person who is able to express them either way any time. Makes me a more satisfied "customer".:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Satrana]

Why such a negative masculine self-image and how does enfemme fix that?

Although CDs tend to fixate on the attraction to femininity, I think repulsion towards masculinity also pushes us to become crossdressers. After all most young boys are gentle, caring, emotional beings. The prospect of growing into an aggressive, competitive, emotionally cold, bully frightens us and only aids in our decision to align ourselves with females.

In a binary world, it is very hard to sit on the fence, we have to make up our minds what we really are - male or female. The idea that we could be both at the same time never occurs to us as there are really no role models out there. It is supposed to be an "either or" situation.

Going enfemme does not fix our negative masculine self-image, rather it only tends to increase it. The more we dress, the more comfortable we become expressing stereotypical feminine qualities, and so the more we move away from masculine qualities. Indeed many CDs end up sounding like radical feminists in their hatred of macho men because they have made up their minds that they have a female personality/spirit.

Personally I think that is a mistake. Hating one gender while idolizing the other is an emotional dead-end. A transgendered person has the wonderful opportunity to be both genders at the same time, something which the rest of the population never imagines to be possible or beneficial.

[Tree GG]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I'd love to sit down "in the pub" and discuss sociology, philosophy, etc for hours. A personality quirk on my part that bores many to tears.

Even though I don't want to discourage your responses in that mode, I'd also like to hear more specific examples. In my emotional growth here, I'm asking you to help me with the practical, un-romanticized foundation pieces of your experiences.

I believe Marla S & Ericka incorporate clothing/appearances they deem to be femme in their everyday life, while others aren't public with their femme selves. What activity/interaction (if any) is there that you feel would be excluded from you when dressed entirely male? What can you do cross-dressed (to whatever degree) walking down the street or in your living room, that is just un-doable otherwise?

Thanks again :happy:

[ronnie06]

oh kay.......ya got a punk..all drunk. now as I see it...in MY view.---
if that punk was man enough, to belly up to the bar..he shoulda been man enough to know when to quit.
it is NOT....YOUR duty or obligation to wet nurse a punk kid.
and doing what you did..IS what his roomie was bitching about.

me? I'd have told him if he has an issue---HE can sober him up and baby sit him.
YOU did the right thing.

next time a punk challenges you..tell him where the bear shits in the woods.

[Marla S]

Even though I don't want to discourage your responses in that mode, I'd also like to hear more specific examples.
[...]
What activity/interaction (if any) is there that you feel would be excluded from you when dressed entirely male? What can you do cross-dressed (to whatever degree) walking down the street or in your living room, that is just un-doable otherwise?

I think one has to differentiate between what I call soft-traits-and-skills and hard-traits-and-skills.
Soft-traits-and-skills are those that are not directly linked to the outer appearence, like sympathy, receptivity, sensitivity, ability to listen, caring sense for aesthetics etc.
Theoretically you can do or be this as man or woman.
But like Satrana said absolutaly correct

Absolutely, masculinity is based upon avoiding anything remotely judged to be feminine in nature. The masculine idea is that any man who behaves in a feminine manner degrades himself. The masculine idea is that moving towards femininity is a backwards, regressive position certainly not a progressive one.
it makes a difference in what role you do it.
As a stereotypical example: "Boys don't cry".
Some movies or books move me to tears (not to mention some serious incidents in real life). It is terrible hard to impossible for me to show this openly. Here I am still too mutch catched in a male role that tells me not to do it, because I show "weakness". It requires an act of "rationalization" to become aware of this mechanism and to "fight" against it.
A, maybe a bit romantic, imagination comes to mind that I wouldn't have to bother about it as woman. I'd just cry or not - Period - and I could talk about it if necessary. As a man it is almost impossible to find another man you can talk about it in an open way. It is more easy to talk about it with a woman. And here we are again: if I would belong to the woman/feminine culture I'd just do it or not.
A more general example. It is expected for a man that he is the active and/or leading part in a way. I am not that much into leading and like to be passive sometimes. Don't tell this your boss, your friends or even your SO. You might easily be stamped as looser. So, you have to pretend to be strong, active and a leading nature of some sort. Again you might wish to be a woman because if you are non-leading as a woman it is nothing special and if you have a "leading phase" you will even get compliments for it eventually.
etc.

If it comes to the hard-traits-and-skills, those that are realted to the outer appearence (clothes, haircut, make-up, body-hair etc.) it becomes even more obvious.
As a man you are absolutaly restricted and if you deviate only in a minimal way you immediately get stamped (gay, pervert, softy, freak etc.).
I. e. why shouldn't pink be the favorite color of a man (not my favoite color though)?
If, it is bad luck 'cause you easily get stamped as gay wearing pink shirts or pants.
As a man you have bad luck if your sense of aesthetics is a feminine one or you are narcistic in a feminine way.
In male mode it is terrible hard to look into the mirror for me, because it is at least boring to death what I see and able to do in male mode. No fun to dress, no interest in dressing, just grabing something, at most caring for a technically proper and cultivated appearence.
etc.

[Satrana]

There is a big difference between doing things in public, especially when there are male colleagues around, then we are very restricted whilst when we are alone with our wife/girlfriend we have a lot more scope.

Examples of things not to do in public include crying, being sensitive to other people's needs and concerns, complimenting people on their appearance/choice of clothes, speaking in a quiet voice, giggling, politely requesting things instead of demanding it, commiserating with others etc

Plus obvious things like wearing sensual clothing, moving in a sensual way, being too expressive.

But there are more subtle things, i.e. not doing things in a masculine stereotypical way. For example not standing with your legs apart, not speaking with a loud booming voice, not being confident enough to speak your mind, not having a library of funny stories and jokes to entertain others.

So not only do we have to avoid anything which is regarded as feminine, we also cannot be ambigious either. There is no neutral ground, we are expected to look and behave in an overtly masculine way all the time so that no-one will ever question our masculinity. The smallest defect in our armour and people begin gossiping that we might be gay, certainly we must be a defective man in some shape or form. We lose respect from other men and also women because they are attracted to alpha males. Lesser men become invisible to women in the dating game.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

It's not that things are necessarily undoable, but just that the cost of doing so is high.

I'll quote from Vincent's book, because I think she describes some of these issues quite eloquently (and being a woman, felt them more acutely).


Someone is always evaluating your manhood. Whether it's other men, other women, even children. And everybody is always on the lookout for your weakness or your inadequacy, as if it's some kind of plague they're terrified of catching, or more importantly, of other men catching. If you don't make the right move, put your eyes in the right place at any given moment, in the eyes of culture at large that threatens the whole structure. Consequently, somebody has always got to be there kicking you under the table, redirecting, making or keeping you a real man.

And that, I learned very quickly, is the straightjacket of the male role, and one that is no less constrictive than its feminine counterpart. You're not allowed to be a complete human being. Instead you get to be a coached jumble of stoic poses. You get to be what's expected to you.

It's analogous to the pressures women feel to be pretty. It may not be in the forethought of your consciousness all the time, but it's always there in the background. So some of the appeal is simply being able to step outside those expectations. You will see more than a bit of "grass is greener" thinking in the CD communities -- we are acting a man's idea of what being a woman is like -- but OTOH, I don't think they're any more unrealistic than the ideas some women have about what a man's life is life.

There's also the relative emotional constrictiveness.


That is probably the part I hated most. As a guy you get about a three-note emotional range. That's it, at least as far as the outside world is concerned. Women get octaves, chromatic scales of tears and joy and anxieties and despairs and erotic flamboyance, and now after black bra feminism, we even get vitriol, too. We get to be bitches, at least some of the time, and people write proud books about it. But guys get little more than bravado and rage. Forget doubt. Forget hurt. They take punches. They take care of business. And their intestines liquefy under the stress.

I know mine did....

I had at times the billy club confidence of pure stupid unwarranted self-belief that I have seen in more guys than I can count. I always used to wonder how they did it. Now I know. They did it because a tough front is all you have when there's nothing behind it but the weakness that you're not allowed to show.

For me, part of the appeal is a chance to express those "chromatic scales" Vincent talks about.

There's also a difference in how others interact with me. For example, last weekend I was out shopping and stopped at the food court to get something to eat. The counterman ended up telling me about how he'd spent all night at the hospital because his brother had been in a car crash. Typical of the things women who'd never met before might share with each other, yes? But it's highly doubtful that he would've talked about it had I been dressed as a guy. The interesting thing, is I'm sure he knew I was male in dress -- but just presenting myself as a woman was enough to change the dynamic.

On another front, there's simply the ability to feel pretty. As Anne Hollander says in her excellent "Sex and Suits":


Actual women take “Fashion” seriously or not, depending on their lives, means and views; but they may all believe that it is something legitimately possible for them, something any woman may ignore if she likes but always has an absolute right to take part in.… Most men, in accordance with modern rules, are still quite comfortable ignoring “Men’s Fashion” in its show-businesslike aspects, and feeling that it is not actually available to them nor really even aimed at them.

Now I'm a metrosexual en homme, but I still feel there's far more opportunity to explore ornamentation en femme. And if women feel anxious about their looks because society comments about it all the time, men can feel anxious because (especially when those of us who are older) our looks are never commented on. On another list, one SO was shocked by the realization that men might want to look attractive -- the thought had literally never occured to her before. But we do (at some of us). I suspect one reason most CDs are hetrosexualish is precisely because our "ideal" of beauty is a feminine one. That's to say because a gay man is going to have a masculine ideal of beauty, if he wants to be attractive he's likely to transform himself toward that ideal. Whereas because many CDs don't feel men are as attractive as women -- some even feel men inherently aren't attractive -- their transformation towards "ideal beauty" leads them to putting on a dress. I do believe men can be beautiful as men, but an appreciation for a nice set of pecs is a learned appreciation, not the direct-to-groin zing I can get from viewing women's bodies.

Beyond that, the purpose of make-up is inherently to enhance your looks and (for better or worse) much of women's clothing is designed to put their bodies on display. So I do feel more attractive en femme. Awhile back there was a thread where people posted photos of themselves both en homme and en femme. I don't think I'd be insulting anyone to say they generally looked more attractive en femme -- often looking quite younger. That's the power of make-up. And so en femme I do feel pretty and witty and bright -- and I pity any girl (and boy) who isn't me tonight.

[Tree GG]

Thanks Marla S, Satrana, Marlena, Ericka & everyone else. This conversation has indeed been somewhat enlightening.

If I might indulge in a little self-description:

My husband has seen me cry maybe 10 times in 26 yrs of marriage. Not that I don't do it, I just don't want him or anyone else to see. And only twice have I cried on his shoulder (when my brother died & briefly during a BIG fight). I usually react, as my sisters, who I adore, call it, with the brick wall going up.

I believe, and have taught my daughters, that commercialized beauty is an illusion - smoke & mirrors of creams, colors, boning and tailoring. And it's hard work and effort to maintain. Appreciate the good work God (or the universe) has done by creating what you are - decorate if you want, but remember what you see after the shower is most important.

And I think most importantly, although I struggle to remember this still every day, when all is said & done, the guy on the streets opinion is not what gives you peace. Don't purposely try to offend people, give their opinions respect, but in the final analysis your opinion of yourself is most important. Try to choose every act & comment as something you can stand behind and be proud of; if someone doesn't agree, that's their right, but just because someone else says it's so, doesn't make it truth.

I have a loud booming voice (especially when excited or with my siblings), usually speak my mind, and love nothing better than to make people laugh.

Without going on & on (oops, too late):p , I probably have enough typically "manly" traits to qualify as a member of the FTM forum, but I've never wanted to appear masculine (or never wanted to appear un-Tree-like is more accurate). It is/was hard for me to understand clothing as anything more than a temporary decoration, warmth & camoflauge. (Definite nudist tendencies) So I'm still not 100% on board with CDing as an answer.

I had no idea men felt so judged and scrutinized in general - I believed you (as a group) were above it and envied that; Marla's point of soft-traits vs. hard-traits is well taken. Practicality & function doesn't necessarily apply to CDing so my original query probably isn't pertinent.

Thanks again to all. I do appreciate your candor and prespectives.

[Maria2004]

All I know is how I feel, and that is very difficult, if not impossible to express in words.
Love and xxxx, Lily

Thank you Lily Girl.