Curious

[Nigella]

On another forum, this thought never came up, I suppose because the F2M community seemed to be non existent, or at least not very vocal. But anyway here is a few questions for the F2Ms.

A M2F can slot into a small pigeon hole and stick a label on themselves, although a large number of us hate labels, be they a CD, TG, TV or whatever, but does the F2M community have the same?

Are you a female who wants to dress up, or are you a female who wants to be male? From what I have read, your world seems to be a lot easier and clear cut, have I read right? Is there the stigma attached to your chosen lifestyle like there is to ours?

Depending upon your replies I may have a lot more questions to ask.

*Its a good job I aint a cat :gn: *

[Kieron Andrew]

as you know me pretty well Nigella you are probably aware i consider myself TS therefore i feel i need to be male on the outside as well as what i feel in the inside......

Stigma? yes as FTMs we get loads......more than you may think.......the classic one is we are all butch lesbian, or the urrghhh one is butch dykes! we are veryy rarely accepted as guys, but girls who dress in boys clothes, i am not accepted as male by the outside world only by friends that know me only as Kieron not as 'she'

[Shadowls]

this a very hard question for me, other than the easy answer of I am me.

i feel that i was given the corect body, even thought it is the one who is confused. it's my body because of a hormone inbalence that can't make a clear choice of the true gender. i'm a female that doesn't want to have to worry about female things. i don't want to be treated like a female, and i want to be respected for who i am as a person. from watching people while i was growing up i found that people got treated differently by how they looked or dressed, i found that girls got labled by what they wore and guys got labeled by how they acted. i wanted to be labeled (if i had to be at all) for who i was and what i did, not by how i looked or dressed. of all the labels i found for females tomboy fit what i wanted best.

i had to show the guys i was just as good as they where, but because how i dressed and acted i was given that chance.

[CaptLex]

On another forum, this thought never came up, I suppose because the F2M community seemed to be non existent, or at least not very vocal.
Unfortunately, that's the reality - it seems to be non-existent. This is why I try to do what I can to keep this little section of ours going. I know there are a lot of us out there, but there aren't many places for us to meet each other, so we end up thinking we're all alone in this. :wall:


A M2F can slot into a small pigeon hole and stick a label on themselves, although a large number of us hate labels, be they a CD, TG, TV or whatever, but does the F2M community have the same?
Yeah, we're not all the same - some identify as TS, TG, CD, tomboy, genderqueer, androgynous or something else entirely. I think what we all have in common is that we fall somewhere on the trans-masculine spectrum.


Are you a female who wants to dress up, or are you a female who wants to be male? From what I have read, your world seems to be a lot easier and clear cut, have I read right? Is there the stigma attached to your chosen lifestyle like there is to ours?
Like Kieron, I also identify as TS. In what way does our world seem easier and clear cut? We go through some of the same hassles, harassments and misunderstandings as MtFs, including fearing for our physical safety at times.


Depending upon your replies I may have a lot more questions to ask.
Keep 'em coming! :bringiton:

[Nigella]

In what way does our world seem easier and clear cut?



Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it.

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look?

When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?

[Sandra]

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it.

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look?

When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?



I would go here for a while......................:hiding: I'll let you know when it's safe to come out.

[Kieron Andrew]

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it.

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.
Thats cos we dont broadcast it in the same way as the MTFs.....personally i am very private about the tough things in my life so if anything i would only say these things amongst the boys in the boys clubhouse where the MTFs cant read it!

[Nigella]

thats cos we don't broadcast it in the same way as the MTFs.....personally i am very private about the tough things in my life so if anything i would only say these things among the boys in the boys clubhouse where the MTFs cant read

I can understand that you want to keep things private, we all have our little secrets, but we are all "brothers and sisters" here. The M2Fs rely on the genetic females for help and support on a number of topics, and not just to do with the make-up or style. Are you not able to rely on a genetic male to help bounce your problems off? I can understand you not wanting to talk to a TS, as they are trying to get rid of the "male" in them, but some CDs are like me, male at heart and may have an insight to your trials and tribulations?

[Shadowls]

In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.

Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look?

When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?


guys in general don't worry or even care if thier socks match except for the color and they ask the question of thier girls "how long have i've been wearing these socks?"

i have no ideal image of how a guy should look, i know how i like my guys to look.

when i look into the mirror i see me, some times i see the female me at 221lbs. and then i just feel emotionally bad.

[CaptLex]

Reading some of the posts in the M2F forum, you would think that we carry the world on our shoulders, a chipped nail, or run in tights is the end of the world, and we want the world to know it. In contrast, and I have to admit not reading many posts, the F2M forum does not carry the same type of "problems", I mean would your world end if you had 2 odd socks on or the tie you chose clashed with your underwear? I think not, you seem to get on and make do.
LOL! :lol2: That was cute, but I really shouldn't laugh. After all, I can understand how the myth of the ideal female can drive an MtF to seek total perfection in their presentation. Men don't usually have to live up to such standards, though, do they? For the record, my tie doesn't have to match my boxer briefs, but my undershirt does. :devil:

I think that Kieron is right about our being more private about our problems. I know that I also internalize things more, so I tend to present a calm, stoic exterior even when things are boiling inside. But I do sometimes ask for opinions and advice on this forum - from everyone and anyone.


Another question or two ...

The average M2F has an "ideal" image in their minds of how they believe a genetic female should look, and I must admit, a good few of them are way out. Do you have the same "ideal" image of how a genetic male should look? When I look in the mirror, I'm under no illusions, I'm a man in a dress (or skirt or whatever) what do you see when you look in the mirror?
No, I don't have an image of how a genetic male should look (well maybe Johnny Depp ;) ). Maybe it's because I'm attracted to all sorts of men, so the outside package is not as important to me as what goes on between his ears. I will admit to some disillusionment when I look in the mirror sometimes. But it's not because I don't look like a certain type of man, it's because I can see that I have a long way to go before people look at me and don't question my gender identity. :sigh:

All good questions, Nigella. :thumbsup:

[Kieron Andrew]

No, I don't have an image of how a genetic male should look (well maybe Johnny Depp ;) ). Maybe it's because I'm attracted to all sorts of men, so the outside package is not as important to me as what goes on between his ears. I will admit to some disillusionment when I look in the mirror sometimes. But it's not because I don't look like a certain type of man, it's because I can see that I have a long way to go before people look at me and don't question my gender identity. :sigh: :yt: (well everything except the Johnny Depp thingy!)

[Kimberley]

If I may? Cap'n can delete this if he wants.

I agree there seems to be this "ideal" on the M2F side. Probably why I dont dwell on fashion mags other than to study photographic, makeup and style techniques. It is also probably why I have some difficulty relating to many of the threads (Unlike this forum where the talk is far more poignant in my opinion.)

Like Nigella, I have no illusions and no desire to frighten small children and animals so I stay very low key.

Just a couple of other comments. Kieron, your photo certainly puts you on the passable side IMHO.

As to bouncing ideas and thoughts etc, the clubhouse is definitely a haven but dont lose sight of the fact that there are others of us who can and will help, and do so with the utmost of privacy for you guys. We do value the GG's opinions and private messages are very common. So dont be shy to get to know a few of us even if we are whatever label. :happy:


As always :hugs: to all.

Kimberley.

[Kieron Andrew]

Just a couple of other comments. Kieron, your photo certainly puts you on the passable side IMHO.

:o:Dok you can stop that now lol, i wonder if you would say that in person lol

[Kieron Andrew]

i wasnt saying i dont value all your opinions as i most certainly do, its just i myself feel more comfortable talking about FTM stuff with other FTMs in private when it is of a delicate personal nature.......you cant change the way someone feels more comfortable with certain people

[Kate Simmons]

Accepting everyone for who they are is basic for me. I'll admit there are some issues hard to understand on both sides of the gender "fence" ( don't get me started). The bottom line to me is I'll always appreciate everyone for who they are and celebrate that friendship. I understand that there are some "guy" issues the guys would rather talk to each other about and never had a problem with that. In fact, being a guy, I understand it totally. On the other hand, I don't have a problem if a gal chips a nail or gets her panties in a wad and am pretty tolerant that way. That's why we're all here, to help each other through this crazy thing we call life. I wouldn't have it any other way really and if we're considered "misfits", I'd hate to see the rest of the world as I would trust my life to these "misfits" any day. Okay, I'll shut up now but just had to say that. :love: Ericka

[Nigella]

I have noticed that some F2Ms identify as TS, and then later go on to say

I'm attracted to all sorts of men
how does this then identify you sexually, do you consider yourself hetro or gay?

[CaptLex]

how does this then identify you sexually, do you consider yourself hetro or gay?
Just like the rest of the general population, some of us are attracted to men, some to women and some to both. Personally, I consider myself a gay man because my attraction to men has not changed since I've started transitioning, and I haven't developed an attraction to women. :happy:

[Abraxas]

Argh, I wrote a really long, well-though-out reply last night but then my computer went and erased it . . .
Anyway, haha, to answer your last question, I consider myself gay (I just fancy boys and have never had any inclination toward girls).

[CaptLex]

Argh, I wrote a really long, well-though-out reply last night but then my computer went and erased it . . .
Sorry to hear that . . . I would love to have read it, as I'm sure it was full of your usual insight (and humor). If you can piece it together again somehow, please re-post. :happy:

[Shadowls]

i'd say i'm bi, but mostly i'm attracted to some ones personality other then what gender they are

[Abraxas]

Well, Cap't, since you asked lol
This is going to end up entirely different, but whatever.

Stigma, yes. There is a certain amount that comes with the territory. As others have said, there is usually the labeling going on-- 'bulldyke' or 'tomboy' or whatever. It's much the same as with MTFs, I suppose-- most people just don't get it. Or they may think they do, but they really don't. In all honesty, I don't think you CAN get it unless you've lived it (and, even then, it can be very confusing).

In the real world, when people come across something they don't know anything about, they usually get scared or intimidated. And, of course, that initiates the 'fight or flight' response. Either they (fight) make fun of you, or tell you what you're doing is wrong or bad, or they beat you up-- or, on the other side (flight), they close their mind and refuse to even try to understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying that this is what always happens, but it can and does.
While it's true that girls can, I suppose, get away with wearing boys' clothes more than boys can get away with wearing girls' clothes, there are still prejudices and stereotypes in the back of peoples' minds. A lot of people think MTFs are gay because they wear womens' clothes. Okay, so some MTFs are gay, or bi, but that's not the point. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. Gay men are (generally) men who enjoy being men and want to be with other men.
On the flipside of that coin, FTMs are often read as lesbians-- and while some do fancy women, most of us want to be guys. No matter what side of whose fence you're on, people just don't really realise that sex, gender identity, and sexual orientation are three completely separate things. Just because someones' sex is male doesn't mean their gender is male and doesn't mean they fancy women. But then, you all know that so I didn't really need to tell you.

Now, as for an ideal image of what a guy should look like, or what I would want to look like . . . I'm fairly comfortable with the way I look. I wouldn't want to look exactly like anyone else-- if I looked like Hugh Laurie, then people would think I was him lol!
No, I'd want to look more or less like me, but with slightly more masculine features. More muscles, facial hair, a more angular jaw, and lower-set eyebrows. That kind of thing. Me, but with minor modifications. I'd like to upgrade to a newer model, haha! Although I wouldn't object to having Mr. Laurie's gorgeous blue eyes!

As for who I see-- am I male or female to myself . . . That's a hard one I suppose, because I don't think in the third person :heehee:
I have always seen myself as male, though-- thought of myself as a boy, a bloke, a guy, a dude, what-have-you. And I'll admit that sometimes when I undress for a shower and catch sight of myself in the mirror I'm a bit shocked for just a second-- 'hang on a minute-- where'd all THIS come from?'
And of course, anyone who has any sort of gender confusion-- anyone who thinks about it a lot-- is going to be reminded of their physical sex by any number of little things daily-- 'my bra strap is uncomfortable', or 'my beard is starting to grow in'-- little stuff like that, that most people don't even think about in the day-to-day workings of life. But for people like us, it's hard not to be reminded that we're not exactly who/what we want to be.

Now, more on my sexual attraction (because I like talking about boys!). I'm definitely a gay boy-- as gay as they come lol. And I do like all types of guys. I did date an MTF TS once (pre-op, pre-everything) . . . And, to be honest, I'm not sure if I'd do it again. It didn't really feel right to me. But that may just be because she was fairly selfish and didn't treat me with as much respect as I treated her with, and I felt I deserved. That might have dampened my experience.
As for coming out to various people (I do it all the bloody time these days)-- they pretty much figure out from the onset, if it's a purely social situation, that I'm gay. I'm very open about saying stuff like 'oh, he's hot' or whatever. Then generally they'll ask me about it. And if they seem cool, I'll be like 'actually, I am gay but I'm also trans.' The response has been great-- I've been lucky in meeting really open-minded people. These folks usually congratulate me for being myself in such a conservative place, and that makes me feel cool. :D
Anyway, I seem to have gone off on a number of tangents and have probably answered questions that weren't even asked (and probably didn't answer questions that were) so I'll shut up now lol
That's what you get for asking interesting questions! :tongueout

[CaptLex]

Well, Cap't, since you asked lol
Thanks for taking the time to piece it together again, Abraxas. You hit every major point and covered the whole experience. It doesn't matter if you don't look like Hugh Laurie and I'll never look like Johnny Depp - as long as we're comfortable with ourselves and happy as we are. :shades:

P.S. I know what you mean about those "mirror moments". :eek:

[Nigella]

That's what you get for asking interesting questions! :tongueout

How do you define interesting? I am curious mainly because from what I see, the two communities, F2M and M2F, are not that different in their needs and wants, their triumphs and downfalls, but far apart in actually being "one" group.

M2Fs feel hard done by because society in general won't or can't accept a "man in a dress" whereby it can accept a "woman in trousers", but there is much more to it than just that. If my experiences as a M2F are anything to go by, you have just as hard a time as we do in most things to do with your transgenderism.

I really appreciate your input into satisfying my curiosity. :love:

[Abraxas]

No problem Cap't.

Nigella:
An interesting question is any question that makes me think or re-examine myself, or try to put into words how I feel.
I think you're right in that all of us here are trying to accomplish more or less the same thing, at least on some level-- acceptance is what we're going for.
Society can't (for the most part) accept a man in a dress but the difference here is, they generally know why the man is wearing a dress. They understand (perhaps sometimes incorrectly) that there is a desire of some sort to appear as a woman, or a turnon when wearing the clothes. What I mean is, people are more educated and more aware of MTFs, even if they may not be as accepting.

Whereas when society sees an FTM, they don't recognise us for what we are. They either see us as boys (which is fine) or they see us as lesbians or tomboys. My problem (and I won't speak for all the guys but I have a feeling some of them will go along with this) is that I don't want to be seen as a lesbian or tomboy-- and not because I have anything against them. I don't. I just want to be seen as me. And if I can't be seen as a boy, then I want to be seen and recognised as an FTM. Just not a girl. I think that, really, is where the discrimination is-- purely the fact that we don't 'get any press,' so to speak. Nobody even knows we exist, nobody's educated about us at all, so they don't know how to react. Moreover, they don't even think about it unless confronted by it (if they see me and question my sex/gender). And even then, they probably think I'm just kind of andro or whatever-- it probably doesn't even occur to them that I might be TG.

Okay, that's enough out of me!

[Sandra]

Hi Guys,

I will be honest until last year I think it was when Kieron joined another forum that I was on, I didn't even know that FtoMs existed naive hey, but this thread has opened my eyes to the FtoM issues.

Just don't let Nigella know its a good thread or her head will swell that much she won't fit through the door. :D

[CaptLex]

. . . people are more educated and more aware of MTFs, even if they may not be as accepting. Whereas when society sees an FTM, they don't recognise us for what we are. . . . I think that, really, is where the discrimination is-- purely the fact that we don't 'get any press,' so to speak. Nobody even knows we exist, nobody's educated about us at all, so they don't know how to react.
:clap: That says it all! It sums up the whole thread very nicely. :thumbsup:

[Nigella]

:clap: That says it all! It sums up the whole thread very nicely. :thumbsup:

... but it doesn't close it, I will be back with more :D

[CaptLex]

... but it doesn't close it, I will be back with more :D
Oh goody, more questions! Gotta break out some snacks to go with the rum. :D

[Shadowls]

rum? can the capten get capten?:heehee:

[Abraxas]

*bows to the Captain*

Nigella: bring it on! :D

[Nigella]

*bows to the Captain*

Nigella: bring it on! :D

Ang on, I'm at the bar getting in the rum :hugs:

[Evert]

Nice reply Abraxas :thumbsup:

I don't have an ideal man I want to look like. But when I look in the mirror I'm seeking for the male parts of my face... my somewhat male looking jaw, my eyebrows, ignoring my female eyes and skin... Sometimes a little bit depressive to do.

I consider myself a straight male. I like women. :devil: But when people ask, I don't tell them that. Or tell them I'm a lesbian. I hate those words, I just tell them "I like girls" :P

[Abraxas]

Yeah, same here. If someone asks, I usually just say 'I like boys'-- unless they ask me directly 'are you gay?'-- in which case you kinda have to answer with the complete explanation.

[Evert]

And most of the time they don't like my complete explanation.. ;)

Reactions sometimes are like: "Ieeee" :eek:

[Nigella]

M2Fs have a hard time from all walks of society

Genetic Males see it as a slur on their masculinity and Genetic Females see it as a slur on their Femininity.

Who do you think gives you the hardest time and why?

[Kieron Andrew]

M2Fs have a hard time from all walks of society

Genetic Males see it as a slur on their masculinity and Genetic Females see it as a slur on their Femininity.

Who do you think gives you the hardest time and why?ive never had a hard time from GMs.....theyve been welcoming into their world in fact......GGs ive had a few give me a hard time because they just dont get it

[CaptLex]

Who do you think gives you the hardest time and why?
I had to think about this for a while. I get a hard time and acceptance from both men and women, although most men are very cool with it (kind of like a "welcome to the club" attitude). I've also noticed that the females that give me a hard time are usually either lesbians or very, very girly straight women. :p

But the ones who give me the hardest time are religious fanatics - usually female ones. I'm not criticizing anyone's faith or beliefs, but the ones who are so into their religion that it makes them extremely judgmental and close-minded, are the ones I'm talking about. :rolleyes:

[Kieron Andrew]

although most men are very cool with it (kind of like a "welcome to the club" attitude). I've also noticed that the females that give me a hard time are usually either lesbians or very, very girly straight women. :p thats exactly it!!!!

[Abraxas]

I've gotta agree with the Capt'n on this, too. Men seem to be very cool, and religious people are pretty not-cool a lot of the time. Not all the time, but they've been the only ones I've gotten any hassle from-- apart from in Jr. High when it was all the male bullies, but they don't really count, now, do they?
Kids don't really get it. Every time I see my young cousins, they ask me why I dress like a boy and stuff, but they're way too young for me to offer them a complete explanation. I wouldn't feel right about it. After all, they're not my kids and I wouldn't want to step on their parents' toes about explaining things like this.
My family used to give me a lot of hassle, but it was always 'oh, by 8th grade you'll be wearing skirts and halter tops all the time.' and then, when I was in 8th grade it was 'by the time you're in high school, you'll be the girliest girl we've ever seen,' and on and on. They've given it up by now because I'm 20 years old and can't really 'grow out of it' by now.

[Satrana]

Stigma, yes. There is a certain amount that comes with the territory. As others have said, there is usually the labeling going on-- 'bulldyke' or 'tomboy' or whatever. It's much the same as with MTFs, I suppose-- most people just don't get it. Or they may think they do, but they really don't. In all honesty, I don't think you CAN get it unless you've lived it (and, even then, it can be very confusing).


I agree completely. I am now resigned to the fact that all non-TG people out there will never really understand us. The conditioning to accept the binary system is just overwhelming and is reinforced everyday in the things we see, read and hear about. It is just impossible for a non-TG person to get their heads around the issues.

We have to recognize that any acceptance that we can obtain will always be partial and conditional. We will never be accepted as normal. We have only each other to turn to for full acceptance. :( Fortunately it turns out there are a hell of a lot more of us than we ever imagined!:hugs:

[Satrana]

I had to think about this for a while. I get a hard time and acceptance from both men and women, although most men are very cool with it (kind of like a "welcome to the club" attitude). I've also noticed that the females that give me a hard time are usually either lesbians or very, very girly straight women. :p



Do you think this is about the differences between male and female friendship styles. Men are more casual about friendship in that they are used to easy going, non-intense friendship based upon group camaraderie. While women tend to want more intense, emotionally tight, one-on-one relationships which require much higher levels of personal compatibility.

[Kate Simmons]

Do you think this is about the differences between male and female friendship styles. Men are more casual about friendship in that they are used to easy going, non-intense friendship based upon group camaraderie. While women tend to want more intense, emotionally tight, one-on-one relationships which require much higher levels of personal compatibility.Yep and women tell each other everything, even sharing intimate deatails about their mates, etc. Guys tend to do stuff like farting contests, who has the bigger...boat or whatever and BS. A big requirement of being a guy is BSing. Not that they really believe each other but it's a "guy thing". Women on the other hand, generally run everything in a relationship. The trick is to let the guy think he is doing it. Since I'm in touch with both sides of myself, I know how the "games" are played very well.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[CaptLex]

Do you think this is about the differences between male and female friendship styles. Men are more casual about friendship in that they are used to easy going, non-intense friendship based upon group camaraderie. While women tend to want more intense, emotionally tight, one-on-one relationships which require much higher levels of personal compatibility.
Well, yeah, I know friendships are usually different for men and women, but I don't know if this is why some females reject us. I think lesbians just don't understand why we need to "cross the line" to the other side and become men, and I think very girly females may believe that we're rejecting what a woman should look and act like (and therefore judging them). But these are only my own ideas about what may be running through their heads - I've never actually sat down and discussed these things in detail. I just think people (all people) are quick to judge and reject what they don't understand - and many people don't understand unless they live it. :sad:

[Beth-GDB]

Well, yeah, I know friendships are usually different for men and women, but I don't know if this is why some females reject us. I think lesbians just don't understand why we need to "cross the line" to the other side and become men, and I think very girly females may believe that we're rejecting what a woman should look and act like (and therefore judging them). But these are only my own ideas about what may be running through their heads - I've never actually sat down and discussed these things in detail. I just think people (all people) are quick to judge and reject what they don't understand - and many people don't understand unless they live it. :sad:

*sticking my nose in*

There's a theory I've been kicking around inside my head (a good place to do that, lots of empty space between these ears :D ) for a couple of years now regarding societies, social conditioning and gender roles. No doubt there have been a few books written about it by people vastly more qualified then me, but I haven't read them.

In a nutshell, human societies are cooperative ventures. One person living in isolation is not a society, neither is a small handful of people. A society needs a certain number of people living and working together in order for that society to continue to exist. The closer that society's existance is to the margins of day to day survival (the "breaking point" between surviving as a society and not surviving, such as a small population that can't maintain it's numbers, meagre food sources, competition from other groups, etc), the less that society can afford members who do not conform to it's societal norms. Those members who do not conform are both a potential threat and a potential burden to the society as a whole. Conversely, the further a society is from the margins of survival, the easier it can accomodate a proportion of it's population not conforming to the societal norms.

How does a society maintain conformity for the sake of it's own preservation? Through the indoctrination of it's societal norms to it's members, boys are supposed to behave like this, girls are supposed to behave like that. All societies are self-indoctrinating. The judgement, rejection and in some cases outright hostility towards gender non-conformists is a reaction by those who have been successfully indoctinated towards those for whom the indoctrination has somehow failed. The non-conformists are the threat from within, the potential betrayers, rather than some other obvious threat from without. The closer a society is to it's margins of survival, or perhaps the closer the society appears to be to those margins as viewed by the conformists, whether the appearence is valid or not, the more severe the repercussions can be for members who do not conform.

[CaptLex]

The judgement, rejection and in some cases outright hostility towards gender non-conformists is a reaction by those who have been successfully indoctinated towards those for whom the indoctrination has somehow failed.
Yeah, I agree with this. It makes we wonder too if those who reject us think that we want to make them like us and wouldn't want to allow them the freedoms that they deny us. Sort of like a "do unto others before they do unto you" philosophy.

Reminds me of a conversation I heard once where a woman who had a problem accepting homosexuals asked, "Do they think we should all be like them?" And the next person answered, "No, only straight people think that way." In our situation it would be: do transgendered people (CDs, TGs, TSs) think that everyone should be like us? No, only non-TG people think that way.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I think lesbians just don't understand why we need to "cross the line" to the other side and become men, and I think very girly females may believe that we're rejecting what a woman should look and act like (and therefore judging them).

Sadly I think the attitudes expressed in this column (http://www.sovo.com/2006/9-1/view/columns/vanasco.cfm) aren't unique. At least the writer recognized she's got...uh...one might politely say "contradictory"... attitudes when it comes to MTFs and FTMs. I do think envy of imagined male privileged probably is a often factor. (Not to say men aren't privileged as a group, but the paradox is that individual men often don't feel (or objectively are) privileged -- especially in the ways imagined.)


The non-conformists are the threat from within, the potential betrayers, rather than some other obvious threat from without.

Well it's interesting to me that ethnic conflicts where the opposing sides are outward quite similar (Bosnia, Rwanda) are often far more brutal than ones where there are obvious differences between groups. And I suspect it's got to do with the fear some of "us" might secretly be "them."


Reminds me of a conversation I heard once where a woman who had a problem accepting homosexuals asked, "Do they think we should all be like them?" And the next person answered, "No, only straight people think that way." In our situation it would be: do transgendered people (CDs, TGs, TSs) think that everyone should be like us? No, only non-TG people think that way.

Yeah, one of the privileges of being "normal" is that you don't even think about what it might like to be different. This column (http://www.azcentral.com/community/ahwatukee/articles/1018mr-marks1018Z14.html) illustrates how people are just oblivious.

[Abraxas]

Ooh, Marlena-- that article kinda pissed me off.
I hope this doesn't start a big to-do, but I think that some feminists are a little . . . nutty. I mean, some of them (like whoever wrote this article) are totally blind to the concept of equality (which is what I understood feminism to be about, even if the name is a misnomer). All people should have equal rights. But those feminists who believe that women are better than men, that pisses me off. Women are no better than men, and men are no better than women, in the grand scheme of things.
I can't really believe she has the nerve to say things like 'I understand why a man would want to be a woman. Women are wonderful! Of course men would want to be women!' That right there is an extreme prejudice when you take into account that she later said that women should not want to 'turn into men' or whatever. Egomaniacal, pure and simple.
It's not that any of us think that the opposite gender/sex is 'better' than our own, it's just that we have a biological imperative, or need, to transition.
If we are men on the inside and want to become men on the outside, we should not be 'welcomed as sisters.' Herpriorities are messed up, methinks. She's totally disregarding the whole transgender FTM community and then saying that she respects us and wants us to have equal rights.
And she thinks that just because we 'become men' we get more rights? Not bloody likely. There's a lot more prejudice, I think, toward those who have transitioned than there is toward people who may just be falsely recognised as 'butch' or 'tomboyish' or whatever. And that's mainly because of people like her, I think.
Bloody convoluted, that is.

But thanks for sharing :happy: Thoroughly enjoyable read. But then, I enjoy being angry. Go figure.

[Satrana]

Ooh, Marlena-- that article kinda pissed me off.
I hope this doesn't start a big to-do, but I think that some feminists are a little . . . nutty. I mean, some of them (like whoever wrote this article) are totally blind to the concept of equality (which is what I understood feminism to be about, even if the name is a misnomer). All people should have equal rights. But those feminists who believe that women are better than men, that pisses me off. Women are no better than men, and men are no better than women, in the grand scheme of things.


I have been reading up on the feminist movement recently. Most people assume feminism is about achieving equality but that concept disappeared in the 1970s when the movement was taken over by women with more radical agendas - the so-called gender feminists who believe women are morally superior to men and men are the root of all things evil and most be opposed in everything. Their actual aim to is replace their perceived patriarchy with a very real, organized matriarchy. These people are not just loonies, they are fanatical ideologues and share the same behavior and skewed view of life with other dangerous ideologues like fascism and even Al Queada. I wish I was over-stating how perilously nutty these people are but I am not.

Sorry for the rant but I am still in shock in finding out how much real hatred for men exists in the modern feminist movement. Worse, is that there are tens of thousands of young women being indoctrinated in women studies every year and nearly all these courses are centered on gender feminist superiority theory not on equality. Essentially these courses are creating gender terrorists hell bent on discriminating against men and (non-enlightened) women to impose a new world order.

I am shocked that people who I hoped would be allies for the cd community even in a limited way are in fact one of our most strident antagonists. I know that there are other feminists out there who really do want equality and are also angered by these radical feminists but alas they are in the minority.

The most awful thing though is while it is not hard to recognize these people for the sexist morons that they are, their propaganda about the saintly virtues of women and the evil vices of men have been seeping into the consciousness of the general population for the last forty years. Much of what we think about as the differences between the genders originated from these gender feminists not from actual bona fide gender studies. The damage has already been done.

If you are interested then there are a couple of books by equality feminists which highlight the damage gender feminists have caused to our society:
Who Stole Feminism?: How Women Have Betrayed Women by Christina Hoff-Sommers - debunks the gender feminists theories directly
Lip Service: The Myth of Female Virtue in Love, Sex, and Friendship by Kate Fillion - tackles the damage to women's ability to bond with other women and men due to women trying to live up to the ideals espoused by gender feminists.

Again sorry for going off tangent but this stuff really rankles me!:Angry3:

[Nigella]

Well this thread like most has "developed".

It has given me an insight, which I will share, but may be totally wrong

This forum is aimed at the TG community in all its forms, which is very diverse. The majority appear to be M2F CDs, again ranging from the "newly hatched" to the out and about 24/7s. This is followed closely by the TS's, both M2Fs and F2Ms and finally, but just as important, the GGs.

I will admit that although a little wiser now, I am still in the dark about TS issues, but then TBH it is not an area I have any interest. That is not meant as a snub, it is just not my path on the journey of TGism. IMHO the issues are the same both M2F and F2M TS's and that it appears to be a long lonely path fraught with difficulties at every turn.

Who on this forum has the "hardest" time of it, will always be open to debate, but I for one certainly take off my hat to those who have chosen the TS path, if my TGism gets too rough I can always go back to my closet (fat chance :devil: ). TS's cannot chose this option and must face all that is thrown at them to achieve their goal.

:hugs: :love: to you all no matter what your chosen gender is

[Satrana]

Who on this forum has the "hardest" time of it, will always be open to debate, but I for one certainly take off my hat to those who have chosen the TS path, if my TGism gets too rough I can always go back to my closet (fat chance :devil: ). TS's cannot chose this option and must face all that is thrown at them to achieve their goal.



Agreed it is all very subjective but my feeling is that TS actually have an easier time, to the extent that society actually seems to accept them more readily presumably because they attempt to conform to the binary gender system. There is a lot of sympathy for the "women trapped inside a man's body" concept, and vice versa for FTM.

In contrast those in stand with one foot in either gender camp is not adhering to the rules and is seen as a more insidious threat. Also I think society belives that cds/tgs choose their alternative lifestyle while ts are born this way. So if we choose this "perversion" then society has no compassion for us.

Also ts live 24/7 as their preferred gender, often with hormones and surgery, so will blend in fairly well while typically cds stick out a mile with ill-fitting fashion and the wrong body shape and behaviour which makes cds look as if we are actually mocking the other gender which also lowers society's appreciation of what we are.

[Melanie85]

LOL! :lol2: That was cute, but I really shouldn't laugh. After all, I can understand how the myth of the ideal female can drive an MtF to seek total perfection in their presentation. Men don't usually have to live up to such standards, though, do they? For the record, my tie doesn't have to match my boxer briefs, but my undershirt does. :devil:

Actually.... now that I think about it, there IS a myth of the ideal man; the Muscular Man. The Macho-Man stereotype. The Body-Builder. The Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Except compared to women we [guys] have less emphasis on looks and it is hard to build muscles like that (so it's understandable if one doesn't completely live up to this image), therefore there's less pressure. (My theory)
But still, more muscles = more manly;
More physical strenght = more manly.

Then again, even as a guy I wouldn't want to look like Arnie, even if I do exercise and I want some muscles. Too much muscles means too much maintenance. Plus people might treat me differently. I might get pigeonholed into the "All Muscles No Brains" stereotype, or the Macho-Man Stereotype. (Or maybe I unconsciously don't wanna look like Arnie because I'm a cd? Okey, time to turn my brain off...)

[Abraxas]

Personally, I think that if you have a hard time folding your arms, and when you walk your feet are shoulder-width apart because your thighs are so big, it's time to stop pumping the iron already!

I'm much more into the Bruce Lee type build. Small, compact, and toned.

[CaptLex]

Personally, I think that if you have a hard time folding your arms, and when you walk your feet are shoulder-width apart because your thighs are so big, it's time to stop pumping the iron already!

I'm much more into the Bruce Lee type build. Small, compact, and toned.
I agree, Abraxas. Bruce Lee was all muscle, but he was very lean. I want to build muscle tone, but I've never been into the Arnold look. Some of those bodybuilders look so "swollen" you can tell it's all steroids. :eek: Yuck!