Must genitalia match gender role?

[JenniferMint]

From the "For $35,000, you can be a girl in two months!" topic:


I know of one person (under 40, BTW) who had GRS with Dr. Suporn last year without any letters and without ever having started the real life test. Last I heard, she still doesn't pass very well, she's still not really "full time" in any meaningful sense, and she's saving up for FFS. She's also been trying to rationalize that living full time is a meaningless concept, and that she's just not interested in presenting in "sterotypical" female fashion. :rolleyes:

Which ought to be a pretty good argument against having GRS without doing the RLT beforehand. Some people don't need a full year, but at least a few months full time (just to make sure you are ready) is probably a really good idea.

It sounds like you're implying that she shouldn't have had GRS, just because she isn't full-time. Well, what if she's happy the way she is, living between genders with a vagina? Before that, she was living between genders with a penis. Maybe she prefers having a vagina anyway.

Speaking more generally, what's wrong with having a gender role that doesn't match the genitalia, anyway?

Transitioned non-op M2Fs are essentially women with penises.
Transitioned non-op F2Ms are essentially men with vaginas.

I think that the RLT requirement may be somewhat flawed: It presupposes that in order for an M2F to be happy having a vagina, she must be comfortable full-time in a female gender role. This certainly isn't the case for transitioned non-ops, so it would be reasonable to assume that the opposite could be true: That there exists TGs who would benefit from SRS, but aren't full-time.

[Clare]

Hiya Jennifer.

That's a facinating hypothisis you have there. As I'm not a TS (just a plain old TG - I think!), I can't really comment from a personal perspective, but I'll be interested in the replies to this topic.

[Kimberley]

I JUST KNOW Donna is going to wade into this one so....

It is called being TG, Genderqueer or whatever. My thought is SO WHAT???? It is this very sort of question that leads to discrimination within our own community; "Who is more TG/TS?" (It is BS in my opinion) How we feel and live with this is what counts not how we transition.

Why does it matter?
Is one's happiness dependent on transition/SRS?

There is no cure for this. Transition only allows us to bring our sexual identity in line with our gender identity. Our gender identity will always be with us. SRS may alleviate the discomfort of the "anomoly" but it will not change the person within.

Someone who is TG/TS most certainly will want to go that route (surgery),
but for any number of reasons will opt not to do so. I made this very uncomfortable choice in 1991 because of family, career etc. Additionally, the ramifications are/were serious enough to cause me to take stock of the long term health considerations.

By all definitions I could be a candidate but refuse for exactly the reasons above.

End of Rant
Kimberley

[Kaitlynn]

"Must genitalia match gender role?"

No. Genitals are just organs that help our body function within the world, in the case of genitals, fulfilling our prime directive (and some would say sole purpose on this planet) to make more human beings.

Our Brain is the quintessential part of us (although I would rank Consciousness/Soul above that.)

Therefore psychological gender > physical gender.

It's what you feel inside not how you look on the outside that counts.

[Nigella]

First of all, I am not TS, pre, post or any other form, and do not profess to have an understanding of the issues a TS faces but here is my :2c:

This brings to mind how a hermaphrodite (a person with the reproductive organs of both sexes) would fit into the scheme of genitalia matching gender.

By society a persons gender is generally defined by the body shape, tone, facial structure and outward physical appearance. The old saying "if it waddles like a duck, quack slike a duck, then its a duck" fits here I believe.

IMHO a RLT should fit the person who lives it, not a sterotypical framework.

[CaptLex]

Transitioned non-op M2Fs are essentially women with penises.
Transitioned non-op F2Ms are essentially men with vaginas.
To me this sounds like spot-on, Spock-like logic. If you want my :2c: , I would say it's up to the individual - like so many other things in this complex trans-world. After all, each one has to live with his/her/their situation and no two trans stories are exactly alike. I won't get into how I feel about it in my own case (to get a "willie" or not), but I wouldn't judge anyone who went in either direction - as long as they are happy with their decision.

[Kimberley]

Cap'n, thank you. It is personal, and no two persons are alike. Circumstances differ, needs differ, values and a host of other complications that can affect one's decisions. It is dead wrong to make the assumption that everyone has to proceed down a prescribed path.

:hugs: :hugs: :hugs:
Kimberley.

[joanlynn28]

Me I know that I am definately TS and will transition but that is me. If someone identifies as female and still has male genetial or male with female genetial what does it matter. This is just a personal choice in what one is comfortable with one's self. That is the problem with society in general, everyone has to be put into one group or another. In the whole sceam of things it doesn't really matter does it? There are those that will not transition due to personal or family responsible reasons and that is they choice. Yes, I'm with Capt Lex on this subject.:2c:

[boi_0h]

From the "For $35,000, you can be a girl in two months!" topic:



It sounds like you're implying that she shouldn't have had GRS, just because she isn't full-time. Well, what if she's happy the way she is, living between genders with a vagina? Before that, she was living between genders with a penis. Maybe she prefers having a vagina anyway.

Speaking more generally, what's wrong with having a gender role that doesn't match the genitalia, anyway?

Transitioned non-op M2Fs are essentially women with penises.
Transitioned non-op F2Ms are essentially men with vaginas.

I think that the RLT requirement may be somewhat flawed: It presupposes that in order for an M2F to be happy having a vagina, she must be comfortable full-time in a female gender role. This certainly isn't the case for transitioned non-ops, so it would be reasonable to assume that the opposite could be true: That there exists TGs who would benefit from SRS, but aren't full-time.

The RLT doesn't necessarily mean that because a TG/TS is living full time s/he wants or "needs" to have an SRS. It is merely a way to let the patient know what they will be dealing with when they are transitioned to whatever degree they plan to, because once transitioned living "full time"=life. Basically, there is no turning back, it's another security measure added to make sure that misdiagnoses and extreme confusion on the TG/TS's part doesn't happen.

[princessmichelle]

Hi,

I see an added benefit to surgery: legal status and related areas, such as:
1) worst case scenario: prisons and rapists are both unforgiving
if genitals do not match gender role
2) the end of legal fear regarding restrooms and other single-sex places.
3) some government/medical/legal forms cant be changed without genital surgery, and for a lifetime of paperwork or emergencies, that can be important
Oh: I'm not a lawyer, so please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

To cd for a day or a short time, not a problem. But whenever I daydream of extended time as the opposite gender, legal issues like this scare me to death.

What do you think?

Princess michelle

[Ms. Donna]

I JUST KNOW Donna is going to wade into this one so....
Wonderful. Now I have a reputation! :rolleyes:

But since you invited me… ;)

I spun off a similar thread on another site yesterday – it was locked within five hours. Personally, I’m glad it was locked because it quickly started to head in a really bad direction. It veered way off topic and became too personal. That said, I’ll wade into this – cautiously.

Do they need to match? Of course not. IMHO, one’s genitals are not (and should not) be the center of one’s identity: man or woman – male or female. There are plenty of transmen who do not opt for GRS (cost and quality are two reasons) and they are no less ‘men’ because of it. Same goes for pre-op / non-op TS women. Should their identity as ‘women’ be marginalized as a result?

What it comes down to is that changing one's sex need not necessitate a change of gender and changing one's gender need not necessitate a change of sex. There is no reason to keep these two constructs linked all the time. They can and do operate separately.

This is a touchy topic because it cuts to the heart of how we identify with regards to both our sex and gender. As Kimberley pointed out, this bad place to go: declaring that genitals and gender roles must somehow ‘match’. This POV is at the root of the Tranny Hierarchy and for years I’ve heard some TS women hold themselves up as the ideal to which all the rest of us ought to aspire. Their reasoning is simple: a woman does not have a penis; and if you do, then you can make no claim to being a woman. From where I sit, it’s elitist crap.

(Lex, be thankful that you guys don't play this kind of catty crap.)

:: sigh :: As to RLE being a requirement for SRS: that was the original topic of the thread I spun off yesterday and I will not debate it here. What I will do is provide the following links as food for thought:

PRIMUM NON NOCERE - A Physician-Patient Perspective by Rebecca Anne Allison, M.D. ( http://www.drbecky.com/primum.html)

and
Gatekeeping versus services on demand ( http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/gender-identity.html#Gatekeeping)
and leave you all to take this topic to wherever you want.

Just don’t ask me to play…

Love & Stuff,
Donna

P.S.: Hi Michelle :hugs:

[Siobhan Marie]

I would have to agree with some of the others and say that it depends on the person. But for me my genitalia will have to match my gender role. I want rid of the appendage and the boys (sorry I can't call them by their proper names as I hate them and want rid of them, I really do) as I want to be Anna Marie in name and gender.

:hugs: Anna Marie x

[MJ]

Very good points of view. it is a personal choice. for me i would get srs/grs because this is who i am. girls don't have kick stands. and to see them go would make me very very happy. but the fact that i have them does not make me any less a woman...

hugs Marissa

[cindianna_jones]

No.

There are many things we can change, many we can't, and some that we learn to live with.

For the first time last night, I visited You Tube. There I saw an interview with a famous NY TS who has had more surgeies than the number of calories I ingest in a day. At first I was shocked. I immediately thought it absurd. But then I found my inner muse chastising me for my insensitive attitude. Perhaps, these were all necessary for her own personal comfort. My personal feelings were not hers. My personal feelings are not yours.

Do what you need to do and learn to live with what you can. But by all means, enjoy your life. Relish your transition whatever that may be. It is a wondrous path we walk. Your life is a treasure.

Cindi

[Joy Carter]

No.

There are many things we can change, many we can't, and some that we learn to live with.

For the first time last night, I visited You Tube. There I saw an interview with a famous NY TS who has had more surgeies than the number of calories I ingest in a day. At first I was shocked. I immediately thought it absurd. But then I found my inner muse chastising me for my insensitive attitude. Perhaps, these were all necessary for her own personal comfort. My personal feelings were not hers. My personal feelings are not yours.

Do what you need to do and learn to live with what you can. But by all means, enjoy your life. Relish your transition whatever that may be. It is a wondrous path we walk. Your life is a treasure.

Cindi



Agree Cindi ! Another one is " If you judge someone on the outside then you just might be rejecting the next best friend, " I do live by that view, You can tell by the collection of friends I have. :tongueout :straightface: :happy: :eek: ETC ETC ETC LOL

[Natasha Anne]

I have to say, "no". Governments and institutions do that and so society accords that to us like a non-negotiable.

Allow me some latitude to relate a story.

I was at the USA Consulate in July to apply for a visa to travel to the United States. Naturally I had been in RLT for quite some time. My passport said male in it, but I looked nothing like it. In fact my avatar is the photo I used for my Visa application.

I was quite apprehensive about it all, but when I eventually got to have my visa interview the male behind the counter just looked over my documentation and said, "governments exist to put people in boxes" and told me not to worry. He didn't even keep the letter I had from my endocrinologist.

Furthermore, think about this. How many roles are men able to perform these days that they just were not allowed to. Same goes for women, but of course the examples are obvious. Men are able to be house-husbands without too much frowning. Men are able to adopt; both heterosexual and gay men. Society is changing all the time. It's not the roles that are changing. We still need all the roles. Who gets to perform them is changing.

[AmberTG]

I guess I gotta put in my 2 cents here also. I have to agree with Ms. Donna on this thread, I think there are just too many variables to be able to put people into catagorys regarding sex and gender. The physical body is just the carrier of the brain and soul. If it doesn't match who we perceive we are, society wants to try to stuff us into a definition anyway. IMO, TS has more to do with outward physical appearance and changes to it, and TG has more to do with inner perseption of who we are at our deepest level. It's been said that the soul has no gender and I believe that, but I can't get into that here, that's a different subject, however, our gender perception is tied to our deepest thought process, and to our hardwireing in the womb, IMO. For an intersexed person, there is no box that society can put them in, physically, they could be both or neither, only gender ID can determine the self in that case. For many of us in the TG community, there is no clear gender ID, many of us, including myself, fall somewhere in the middle, not quite comfortable with either role. I want to be able to present as a woman, but I also am comfortable presenting androgonously, I've never been comfortable in the male role, I just don't fit the mould, never have. I think a lot of cross-dressers fit in this area to some degree, they don't want to give up the male half, but they need to express the female half. Me, I'm willing to give up the male half, and replace it with neither. I don't want the male life, but I'm afraid of the possibility that I can't sucessfully present the female side of me, so I'm stuck in the middle.
Getting SRS is quite expensive and some of us just don't have that option so we have to live with what we have and learn to deal with it, even if we would wish otherwize. Some of us just choose not to have SRS for many reasons, that doesn't make us less in our chosen or perceived gender, some of us need SRS to feel whole. There is no "right" choice for everyone, there is only what's right for the individual. If we don't fit into any "box" so be it.
Amber

[Clare]

I want to be able to present as a woman, but I also am comfortable presenting androgonously, I've never been comfortable in the male role, I just don't fit the mould, never have. I think a lot of cross-dressers fit in this area to some degree, they don't want to give up the male half, but they need to express the female half. Me, I'm willing to give up the male half, and replace it with neither. I don't want the male life, but I'm afraid of the possibility that I can't sucessfully present the female side of me, so I'm stuck in the middle. AmberOh how true are these comments!

I can relate precisely with each of your observations and desires. Taking that final leap of faith to be who we really are is a mixture of apprehension from societal expectations and personal uncertainty of what we expect to achieve once we commit to a lifestyle change.

[Stlalice]

Interesting thread so far - but I think that an important point is being missed. The purpose of the real life test is not so much to force you to fit in to a mold or a stereotype as it is intended to give a person a chance to "try out" living in an opposite gender role BEFORE any non reversible changes are made to the body. Hence the full time - no retreat for one year or more requirement in the standards of care. It's one thing to dress in private and dream but quite another to have to live full time and deal with the reality of fitting into your choosen gender role. There is a huge amount to learn during that period! The person that Kehleyr wrote about is a perfect example of why the real life test is so necessary. She would have quickly found out that maybe FFS should have come first and with it the confidence that having a passing appearance would bring. Things like HRT and electrolysis would have had time to work and further that passing image. Then when she was truly ready for it the surgery would have been the icing on the cake - the final step without the problems she is dealing with now. While I strongly believe that transsexualism should be removed from the DSM and be a medical instead of a psychological condition, I also believe that the standards of care should be closely followed. There is just too much at stake to try to take shortcuts!!!