Turning The Tables

[Jennifer_Ph]

I've been thinking about this for a while. I know some GG's don't understand why we crossdress. Well what if we turned the tables on them.

What if they had to be like men? Meaning, what if they could only wear fem items. Only skirts, dresses and the like. No jeans, no tennis shoes, no t-shirts, no pants, etc. They had to wear makeup, keep their hair long. They were forever bound to wear only womens clothing. Would they come home at night and sneak into some pants? Take their makeup off? Sit at home and try to feel more masculine? I think they would.

And I think that goes a long way to describing why we crossdress. Just my :2c:

[Sweet Emily Raleigh]

I've been thinking about this for a while. I know some GG's don't understand why we crossdress. Well what if we turned the tables on them.

What if they had to be like men? Meaning, what if they could only wear fem items. Only skirts, dresses and the like. No jeans, no tennis shoes, no t-shirts, no pants, etc. They had to wear makeup, keep their hair long. They were forever bound to wear only womens clothing. Would they come home at night and sneak into some pants? Take their makeup off? Sit at home and try to feel more masculine? I think they would.

And I think that goes a long way to describing why we crossdress. Just my :2c:

I like this idea! Keep thinking sister!:thumbsup:

[ColleenCD]

Pandora just called, he's looking for his box.

My wife told me a while back that the reason she hates skirts so much is because I like them. While poignant and blunt, It told me that the style of clothing women choose to dress in has many influences. But most important is that women have earned the right to wear whatever they want.

In 2035, when we all travel to outer space, the space suits will be identical except for the pink silk (or cotton) lining worn by women and crossdressers.

Colleen

[Karren H]

Now that's how women should dress!! Need to make that a constitutional amendment!!

But I don't crossdress because the male atire is limited.... I crossdress because I enjoy wearing feminine clothing... (Excluding fem jeans of coarse!!)... If they had skirts for men I'd still rather wear womens clothing, makeup, hair, jewelery.... But then again that's just me!!

Love Karren

[Tree GG]

You're choosing - no one is holding a gun to your head. Look around, those who can't compromise or succumb to public opinion, don't.

So if I can only dress as "female", then you can only dress as "male". Jennifer's closet just closed.

[Shannen]

Didn't they call that oppression? I'm pretty sure I studied something in history about how that was wrong. :happy:

If we add corsets to the list it would be more realistic!

-Shannen

[Roberta Lynn]

I've been thinking about this for a while. I know some GG's don't understand why we crossdress. Well what if we turned the tables on them.

What if they had to be like men? Meaning, what if they could only wear fem items. Only skirts, dresses and the like. No jeans, no tennis shoes, no t-shirts, no pants, etc. They had to wear makeup, keep their hair long. They were forever bound to wear only womens clothing. Would they come home at night and sneak into some pants? Take their makeup off? Sit at home and try to feel more masculine? I think they would.

And I think that goes a long way to describing why we crossdress. Just my :2c:

Seems to me women were in that situation about 100 years ago.
Wonder what happened??

[Nigella]

Seems to me women were in that situation about 100 years ago.
Wonder what happened??

They got off their Ar**s and fought for the right, wonder how many here would do the same for their TG rights?

[Snookums]

I've been thinking about this for a while. I know some GG's don't understand why we crossdress. Well what if we turned the tables on them.

What if they had to be like men? Meaning, what if they could only wear fem items. Only skirts, dresses and the like. No jeans, no tennis shoes, no t-shirts, no pants, etc. They had to wear makeup, keep their hair long. They were forever bound to wear only womens clothing. Would they come home at night and sneak into some pants? Take their makeup off? Sit at home and try to feel more masculine? I think they would.

And I think that goes a long way to describing why we crossdress. Just my :2c:

:rofl: how dare you suggest such a thing:rofl: you will offend the GG's with that idea:angry: but I like food for thought:p

[Christina Nicole]

What a ridiculous comparison! Look at what women wear. They wear women's pants, women's blouses, women's flats and loafers, women's... everything. All of those items are cut, sewn, and styled for women. You might have a point if, in addition to wearing pants and no makeup, if they also bound their breasts to appear flat chested , attached beards and mustaches to their faces, and stuffed a pair of socks down the front of their pants, so as to appear manly and macho. But they don't. They never did and never will. Yet on the other hand, crossdressers tuck, wear padded bras, and do other things to appear to be women, not regular men in a skirt. Moreover, crossdressers often dress so as to appear, in their minds anyway, as sexy women.

OK, women might toss on a men's windbreaker, but basically those things are unisex anyway. If you want to wear men's skirts, get a kilt. Otherwise, this entire thread is pointless subterfuge.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Kate Simmons]

Trust me Hon, It would never happen in a million years. Ericka

[Butterfly Bill]

Seems to me women were in that situation about 100 years ago.
Wonder what happened??

Two world wars where the women had to work in the factories because the men were away in the military.

[bredalee25]

Now that's how women should dress!! Need to make that a constitutional amendment!!

But I don't crossdress because the male atire is limited.... I crossdress because I enjoy wearing feminine clothing... (Excluding fem jeans of coarse!!)... If they had skirts for men I'd still rather wear womens clothing, makeup, hair, jewelery.... But then again that's just me!!

Love Karren

I'm with you on this one karren. I to love wearing pretty fem clothes. If they made everything I currently wear for men I'd still wear the fem stuff.

ttfn

[Kelsy]

Now that's how women should dress!! Need to make that a constitutional amendment!!

But I don't crossdress because the male atire is limited.... I crossdress because I enjoy wearing feminine clothing... (Excluding fem jeans of coarse!!)... If they had skirts for men I'd still rather wear womens clothing, makeup, hair, jewelery.... But then again that's just me!!

Love Karren


I also agree Karren,

They make bikini underwear for men and lots of unisex clothing, there are even web sites that make "women's panties for men" but I'm sorry, If it isn't authentic women's clothing I have no interest. It has to be girly girl!!!


luv Jennifer:be:

[Jennifer_Ph]

I guess my point was kinda 'missed.' My point wasn't that women had to dress as men - my point was this; Women can wear anything - tshirts to jeans to fabulous gowns. Men are restricted to only wearing mens clothing for the most part. So what I was saying is, what if women had to only wear womens clothing - but taking out pants, tshirts, etc. Put the clothing restrictions on them, if that makes any sense.

I think if women were forced to wear only 'womens' clothes they would eventually rebel (like they did and now wear our clothes) and then understand a little more of why we want the freedom to wear a skirt, or a cute pair of heels.

As far as the comment of my closet closing, nothing could be further from the truth. I haven't been in a closet for over 10 years - it's dark in there and it wrinkles my clothes.

This post was only to offer a bit of enlightenment. People wonder why I CD - and mostly its because I want the freedom to wear whatever I want - just like GG's can. And to get a GG to maybe understand that, I thought of the scenario where, "What if they didn't have the choice to wear what they wanted? Would they come home and sneak into a t-shirt?" Of course they would - and they would be crossdressing - just like I am when I sneak into my favorite dress.

Just a spin on reality to try to illustrate a point. Even if it didn't go so well. ;)

[StephanieH]

I agree, I told my wife pretty much the same thing about a year ago. Women's wardrobes are virtually limitless and nothing is taboo or socially unacceptable, whereas men's wardrobes and attire is extremely limited. I tried to explain this to my wife, she agreed, then she blanked out again and things are not happy in my home. Regardless, for the GG's reading this, I think to a large degree we're envious of your choices in absolutely every area of your wardrobe. There are endless types and variations of bras, endless types of panties, endless types of stockings, or maybe pantyhose, endless varieties of lingerie, then there's skirts, blouses, dresses, formals, casuals, guy clothes, heels, tall heels, low heels, boots, sneakers, sandals, purses, what color purse and what size, big hair, short hair, straight hair, curly hair, spiked hair, streaky colored hair, too much makeup, too little makeup, no makeup, what color eye shadow to wear?, what color lipstick?, what jewelry to wear?.... the list goes on and on and on. When you're a guy, you wake up, figure out whether you're going to wear boxers or briefs, then you put on pants, a shirt, and when neccesary, you wear a jacket and tie. Black socks or white? Blue jeans or dress pants? Whoa! The possibilities are so extreme! Yes, that's sarcasm, but I really think that's why a lot of us do this, or want to do this. I for one absolutely adore all things feminine (especially my wife) and seek to emulate those things and enjoy them myself. It's as simple as that, but as my wife is proving, apparently it just isn't that simple. Good thread!

[Jennifer_Ph]

Exactly! Thanks Randi.

[Sheila]

Jennifer,
it is still happening today young women are still not allowed in some schools and colleges to wear trousers and their skirts must be knee length. We as Genetic fermales dress most of the time in what is practical, not bercause it is soft and feminine, ------------- you try walking the dog through a muddy field in a short mini, low cut blouse and 6 inch heels and see how practical it is. Yes I enjoy getting toffed up occasionally but dealing with day to day chores at work and around the home and trying to do them in ridiculous clothes is just not realistic and thjats where gg's live (at least most of us ------------ in reality)
Jess

[Jennifer_Ph]

I completely understand, Jess. But the reality is that you can wear that mini and heels whenever you want - even if it were walking through a muddy field no matter how inappropriate it is.

I get the when it is and isn't practical gig. I don't want to wear heels in the mud any more than you do - but I would like to wear them to meet some friends at the bar. We all dress for what we are going to be doing - what seems most appropriate. Thing is, what's appropriate for a GG is limitless - what's appropriate for a man is well... boring.

I don't CD to wear a short skirt in the winter. I CD to wear what I feel comfortable in when I feel comfortable in it. I see GG's all the time with no makeup, drab clothes, hair pulled back, going through the world androgenously.

What gets me is why is it ok for a woman to be masculine but a man is ridiculed for wanting to be feminine? You may not wear a dress because it is soft and feminine, but the thing is, you can wear a dress to feel that way.

[Penny]

Now that's how women should dress!! Need to make that a constitutional amendment!!

But I don't crossdress because the male atire is limited.... I crossdress because I enjoy wearing feminine clothing... (Excluding fem jeans of coarse!!)... If they had skirts for men I'd still rather wear womens clothing, makeup, hair, jewelery.... But then again that's just me!!

Love Karren

Mee too!

[CaptLex]

"What if they didn't have the choice to wear what they wanted? Would they come home and sneak into a t-shirt?" Of course they would - and they would be crossdressing
A t-shirt on a GG is crossdressing? :eek:

[Billijo49504]

Karen, you wouldn't fit any where. You're a clothes hound, and you know it.:tongueout I don't think there is any CD'er that is as brazen as you. And yes, we are jelous!!!!

[deakane]

A t-shirt on a GG is crossdressing? :eek:

Skimming is bad, ya missed what makes that, make sence. :D

If this was to happen it wouldn't last long. It does remind me of that old "walk a mile in the others shoes" saying.

[AmberTG]

I used to say things like "men's clothes are just boring, why can't I wear cute stuff like women do", but I eventually saw that I was just trying to rationalise my reasons for cross-dressing. Actually, that has nothing to do with why I wear womens clothing, I was looking for an excuse so I wouldn't have to admit to myself that the reason I wear women's clothes is because of how they make me feel. It's quite unmanly to CD in a man's world, and I felt guilty about it so I tried to rationalise it. Guilt is very distructive to a personality. The truth is, I enjoy my female side and being able to come to terms with it, at least somewhat, has been very helpful to me. I still have a ways to go, but I'm getting there.
I do agree, in principal, that men's wardrobe choices are limited, but non-CDing men could care less, it's one less thing to think about. I just don't use that as an excuse anymore.

[ReginaK]

The double-standard thing has been done so many times here.

You can preach until you're blue in the face. Most people just aren't going to get it and they don't want to get it. The best thing to do if you don't like it is to fight it.

[noname]

So true randy. I have never wanted so many clothes in my life. I could easily spend a couple hundred, no make that 400 on pants alone. So so many styles and looks. I have to wonder why the fashion industry hasn't caught on, they could be selling me so so much more. That 400 is just for pants to. I'd like to buy a zillion shirts. Though I have less of a desire to buy womens shirts they really like to accentuate their boobs and low cut, and I'm not looking to bare my chest. But if the styles were available I'd go shopping crazy. Shoes? Don't even get me started lol Ok I'm off track and rambling.

I'm not in the closet so I'm doing my part to change things. Though I never try to pass or dress over the top if you will. Ok, lets get back on track.

What if women had the restrictions like we do? Well let me say this, it's a good thing I'm not God. I'd make sure women everywhere felt like I do for a very long time and came to an understanding. Like I said, it's a good thing I'm not God.

[Satrana]

I guess my point was kinda 'missed.' My point wasn't that women had to dress as men - my point was this; Women can wear anything - tshirts to jeans to fabulous gowns. Men are restricted to only wearing mens clothing for the most part. So what I was saying is, what if women had to only wear womens clothing - but taking out pants, tshirts, etc. Put the clothing restrictions on them, if that makes any sense.

I think if women were forced to wear only 'womens' clothes they would eventually rebel (like they did and now wear our clothes) and then understand a little more of why we want the freedom to wear a skirt, or a cute pair of heels.


Or put another way, women have had the freedom to freely dress for decades and so have grown accustomed to having this freedom as a natural right. The younger ones have never known anything else. If strict gender clothing rules were to be reimposed upon women then yes undoubtedly they would rebel against it by crossdressing in male clothes.

However I don't think that would help women accept MTF cds because women's rejection of us is not really based on logic or reason, rather it is based on intolerance and fear so I doubt if the scenerio you describe would be helpful in making women more accepting of MTF crossdressing.

What will help us is a more educated public which does not view us as perverts, freaks, homosexuals etc. What we need is an environment where gender intolerance is rated as deplorable alongside racial and religious intolerance, and where people would feel ashamed of themselves if they discriminated against a man wearing a skirt.

[Nigella]

...Women can wear anything - tshirts to jeans to fabulous gowns. Men are restricted to only wearing mens clothing for the most part.
Who says men are restricted to wearing only mens clothing. If I was restricted, then how come I wear a dress? Who has the right to tell me what I can and cannot wear? Men can wear what they like, as far as I am aware, there are no laws against it, only against wearing nothing. The restriction is in peoples minds.


... I think if women were forced to wear only 'womens' clothes they would eventually rebel (like they did and now wear our clothes)...
I see very few women wearing "our clothes", clothing females wear are designed for the female body, extra room where it is needed, they dont need padding to fill out those areas on the hips or rear.


...This post was only to offer a bit of enlightenment. People wonder why I CD - and mostly its because I want the freedom to wear whatever I want - just like GG's can.

And so you can


...And to get a GG to maybe understand that, I thought of the scenario where, "What if they didn't have the choice to wear what they wanted? Would they come home and sneak into a t-shirt?" Of course they would - and they would be crossdressing - just like I am when I sneak into my favorite dress.

Why just a GG, society is made up of two genders, does not the disapproval of a GM count?


... We as Genetic fermales dress most of the time in what is practical, not bercause it is soft and feminine, ------------- you try walking the dog through a muddy field in a short mini, low cut blouse and 6 inch heels and see how practical it is.

but did you not know Jess, this is how some CDs envisage a GG should look all the time :heehee:

... Yes I enjoy getting toffed up occasionally but dealing with day to day chores at work and around the home and trying to do them in ridiculous clothes is just not realistic and thjats where gg's live (at least most of us ------------ in reality)
Jess

Maybe the problem is, is that some CDs don't have a GG around to show them the impracticallities of doing day to day chores in inappropriate dress.


The double-standard thing has been done so many times here.

You can preach until you're blue in the face. Most people just aren't going to get it and they don't want to get it. The best thing to do if you don't like it is to fight it.

But too many are frightened of putting their head out into the real world, and just doing what they want.

Too many people like to hand out the bullets, and then :hiding:

But then again maybe I'm :dh:

[Shannen]

I see very few women wearing "our clothes", clothing females wear are designed for the female body, extra room where it is needed, they dont need padding to fill out those areas on the hips or rear.


Just looking through all the advertisments from this week, I see "boyfriend pants" at almost every store!

These items are clearly designed to look like men's clothing, while providing room for the females body also.

Why? I think enough girls were wearing their boyfriend's jeans that it became a trend. Then designers created something to sell them based on that need.

I've never seen "girlfriend pants" in the men's section. Or for that matter "girlfriend skirts". :heehee:

-Shannen

[Jennifer_Ph]

Maybe it's not CROSS dressing that I do at all - perhaps it is CHOICE Dressing. Still a CD. ;)

[Kate Simmons]

Maybe it's not CROSS dressing that I do at all - perhaps it is CHOICE Dressing. Still a CD. ;)I love the way you think, Jennifer. Sure works for me.:happy: Ericka

[Jennifer_Ph]

However I don't think that would help women accept MTF cds because women's rejection of us is not really based on logic or reason, rather it is based on intolerance and fear so I doubt if the scenerio you describe would be helpful in making women more accepting of MTF crossdressing.

What will help us is a more educated public which does not view us as perverts, freaks, homosexuals etc. What we need is an environment where gender intolerance is rated as deplorable alongside racial and religious intolerance, and where people would feel ashamed of themselves if they discriminated against a man wearing a skirt.

Very well said. I couldn't agree more.

[noname]

I've never seen "girlfriend pants" in the men's section. Or for that matter "girlfriend skirts". :heehee:

I've noticed that to. The boyfriend cut. For the first time I saw stretch skinny leg jeans for guys, although the store was more for alternative look. If they called it girlfriend cut, they would never sell.

But this goes back to my post about the girl from church wanting to buy guys pants for the cut, but she also talked about guys wearing girls jeans is gross.

go figure

[StephanieH]

Dare we even mention "boyshorts" panties? Where are the "girl panties briefs" for guys? Maybe the marketing guys are missing something here! :heehee:

[GG Vanya]

I've got an idea:

Instead of incessantly whinging here about how how God-awful unfair it is that we GGs can wear what we want, why not use your noggins for more than a wig stand and create a line of male clothing that blends the genders?

If women simply sat around and whinged about their plot in life regarding apparel, we'd all still be wearing bustles and pantaloons. Our ForeMothers got off their duffs and DID something about it.

Does this song ring a bell? :

I am woman hear me roar, in numbers too big to ignore.......

I dare say that the number of CDers worldwide is too big to ignore also. But those who are willing to blaze the trail are being drowned out by all the whingers.

It is NOT FEMALES' fault you can't wear what you want! It's not even society's fault. It's YOUR OWN FAULT. Instead of sitting on a computer starting yet another panty thread, get out and be seen dressed as you wish.

oh and Noname? :D

What if women had the restrictions like we do? Well let me say this, it's a good thing I'm not God. I'd make sure women everywhere felt like I do for a very long time and came to an understanding. Like I said, it's a good thing I'm not God.

Haven't you heard? GOD IS A WOMAN! :tongueout

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of attempts to make GG's feel guilty for the freedoms we have. Want some of it? Then be a man, stand up and CLAIM IT. sheesh....:straightface:

Keep in mind that GG's weren't "handed" the freedoms we enjoy. Hell yeah there were prices to be paid. Women were reviled as "feminists" and trust me, they weren't being complimentary when people used the term for those claiming freedom for GG's.

So, when you decide to claim the freedom you profess to want, be sure you're ready to pay the price for it.

Sometimes I think that if in the morning there was a world wide declaration that M2F crossdressing is now absolutely and totally acceptable, 80% of M2F CD's would lose interest within a week's time. The thrill of being "caught" would be gone, so how would you get the endorphin rush then?

[Snookums]

The double-standard thing has been done so many times here.

You can preach until you're blue in the face. Most people just aren't going to get it and they don't want to get it. The best thing to do if you don't like it is to fight it.

Regina,even if you spell it out for them on a chalk board,they will never get it.

[Makina]

Everybody can't be Rosa Parks. But what you propose, Vanya, has already begun. For example, Jean Paul Gaultier proposes to men to claim some of the feminine symbols : skirts, makeup ... Many of crossdressers already show themselves outdoor.

It's not only a question of clothes. It's a question of attitude. Now women have the right to show themselves powerful and daring. I'm not so sure men are allowed to show themselves sensitive or delicate. I know my mother in law dislikes my feminine attitude, not even knowing about my crossdressing. It will change (not mother in law, but certainly other women), but slowly.

[Nigella]

I've got an idea:

Instead of incessantly whinging here about how how God-awful unfair it is that we GGs can wear what we want, why not use your noggins for more than a wig stand and create a line of male clothing that blends the genders?

If women simply sat around and whinged about their plot in life regarding apparel, we'd all still be wearing bustles and pantaloons. Our ForeMothers got off their duffs and DID something about it.

Does this song ring a bell? :

I am woman hear me roar, in numbers too big to ignore.......

I dare say that the number of CDers worldwide is too big to ignore also. But those who are willing to blaze the trail are being drowned out by all the whingers.

It is NOT FEMALES' fault you can't wear what you want! It's not even society's fault. It's YOUR OWN FAULT. Instead of sitting on a computer starting yet another panty thread, get out and be seen dressed as you wish.

oh and Noname? :D

What if women had the restrictions like we do? Well let me say this, it's a good thing I'm not God. I'd make sure women everywhere felt like I do for a very long time and came to an understanding. Like I said, it's a good thing I'm not God.

Haven't you heard? GOD IS A WOMAN! :tongueout

Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of attempts to make GG's feel guilty for the freedoms we have. Want some of it? Then be a man, stand up and CLAIM IT. sheesh....:straightface:

Keep in mind that GG's weren't "handed" the freedoms we enjoy. Hell yeah there were prices to be paid. Women were reviled as "feminists" and trust me, they weren't being complimentary when people used the term for those claiming freedom for GG's.

So, when you decide to claim the freedom you profess to want, be sure you're ready to pay the price for it.

Sometimes I think that if in the morning there was a world wide declaration that M2F crossdressing is now absolutely and totally acceptable, 80% of M2F CD's would lose interest within a week's time. The thrill of being "caught" would be gone, so how would you get the endorphin rush then?

:beatup: :kickbutt: :Punch: :spank: :slap:

Sorry couldn't resist, but you must admit, the truth hurts :heehee:

You are right IMHO on a lot of what you have said Vanya, BTBH, I think you are :dh:

[GG Vanya]

It's been said here before....Rosa Parks is a really bad comparison.

African Americans were fighting for basic human rights.

I hardly see the parallel between a man wanting to be accepted wearing feminine attire , and a human being (an entire race) wanting to be able to eat in public restaurants, drink from the same water fountains as Whites, and use the same restroom facilities.

But I understand what you're saying.

Another lyric from the song I mentioned:

YES I've paid the price, but look how much I've gained.....

[noname]

I've got an idea:

Instead of incessantly whinging here about how how God-awful unfair it is that we GGs can wear what we want, why not use your noggins for more than a wig stand and create a line of male clothing that blends the genders?



I've thought of that and my wife suggested it. A few problems with that. Firstly, there is no way any one person could compete with huge corporations and the cheap labor they get from China. Secondly, no store would carry the items. One could get lucky, and maybe some indi store might, but it certainly won't be a major chain.


I dare say that the number of CDers worldwide is too big to ignore also. But those who are willing to blaze the trail are being drowned out by all the whingers.

I have no idea how many there are, but one thing is for certain, most of them are in the closet. I believe coming out is a key step to changing things. And yes, I do my part most everyday.


It is NOT FEMALES' fault you can't wear what you want! It's not even society's fault. It's YOUR OWN FAULT. Instead of sitting on a computer starting yet another panty thread, get out and be seen dressed as you wish.

I'm doing just that. But I will blame society.


oh and Noname? :D

Thanks for thinking of me :)



Quite frankly, I'm getting tired of attempts to make GG's feel guilty for the freedoms we have. Want some of it? Then be a man, stand up and CLAIM IT. sheesh....:straightface:

Perhaps people here wouldn't want women to feel guilty, if they didn't try to make us feel guilty?


Keep in mind that GG's weren't "handed" the freedoms we enjoy.

Most all younger women have been handed the freedom. Why else would they stare and try to make us guys feel guilty.


So, when you decide to claim the freedom you profess to want, be sure you're ready to pay the price for it.

Yeah, the price is high. Stares, comments, a lot of misunderstanding.


Sometimes I think that if in the morning there was a world wide declaration that M2F crossdressing is now absolutely and totally acceptable, 80% of M2F CD's would lose interest within a week's time. The thrill of being "caught" would be gone, so how would you get the endorphin rush then?

I get no thrill of being "caught" I wear what I wear because I truely like the style. Speaking of world wide acceptance. Why hasn't the community declared a clothing choice day? Something like that would really raise awareness and get media attention.

[Imma]

To Group::love:

A few days back, Imma got fully dressed in tight girdles, long leg bra, pantyhose, nylon stockings, panty briefs, panties, slip, rufffled blouse, short belted skirt, and yes a pair of five inch, black patent, lace up court shoes. Put a bulking leather strap around instep and ankle. Wore this June Cleaver outfit and took about three hours cooking in kitchen. Kept my killer heels on for twelve hours. Imma got even with those GG!:tongueout

Imma:doll:

[GG Vanya]

To Group::love:

A few days back, Imma got fully dressed in tight girdles, long leg bra, pantyhose, nylon stockings, panty briefs, panties, slip, rufffled blouse, short belted skirt, and yes a pair of five inch, black patent, lace up court shoes. Put a bulking leather strap around instep and ankle. Wore this June Cleaver outfit and took about three hours cooking in kitchen. Kept my killer heels on for twelve hours. Imma got even with those GG!:tongueout

Imma:doll:

what is a long leg bra? And how did dressing in all those multiple layers of clothing "get even with those GG's"???


I've thought of that and my wife suggested it. A few problems with that. Firstly, there is no way any one person could compete with huge corporations and the cheap labor they get from China. Secondly, no store would carry the items. One could get lucky, and maybe some indi store might, but it certainly won't be a major chain.


Rome wasn't built in a day. And those gigantic pyramids began with one stone, using primitive methods we still don't understand to this day. Determination....and the WILL to succeed is the seed from which new ideas are born.
I have no idea how many there are, but one thing is for certain, most of them are in the closet. I believe coming out is a key step to changing things. And yes, I do my part most everyday.



I'm doing just that. But I will blame society.



Thanks for thinking of me :)




Perhaps people here wouldn't want women to feel guilty, if they didn't try to make us feel guilty?

But why do you make this assertion all inclusive? There are quite a few women here who support our SO's AND CDs in general. Please don't lump all women in the same category.
Most all younger women have been handed the freedom. Why else would they stare and try to make us guys feel guilty.

So would you then assert that all young African Americans have been handed the freedoms they enjoy?

Yeah, the price is high. Stares, comments, a lot of misunderstanding.

I've mentioned before that I am the daughter of a fundamental minister. My dress code was such that I could *only* wear dresses, with long sleeves, hems down to mid knee cap. No makeup allowed, and absolutely NO cutting my hair, not even to trim off the dead ends.

This was in the late sixties/early seventies, when mini skirts were all the rave. Trust me, I know ALL about stares, comments, misunderstanding and wanting desperately to "fit in". I was the butt of many cruel remarks and jokes. One girl (one of the "in crowd") who I so desperately wanted to befriend managed to talk me into just trimming a *teeeeeny* bit off the ends of my hair in Home Ec one day. Imagine my horror when she whacked about 4 inches off and everyone fell into gales of laughter. I paid a high price for that when I got home.

Suffice it to say, that was a lesson well learned.

But, I'm way off topic here.....:straightface:

I get no thrill of being "caught" I wear what I wear because I truely like the style. Speaking of world wide acceptance. Why hasn't the community declared a clothing choice day? Something like that would really raise awareness and get media attention.

Then I guess you're one of the remaining 20% :happy:

[kerrianna]

It's an interesting idea you bring up. It does make one question how much attraction the 'forbidden' has for us. And how much rebeling against tradition appeals to us.
I know a lot of of my attraction to cross-dressing has come from the taboo of it. There's more of course, but delicious
subterfuge is a spice of life.

[cdjenny]

The double-standard thing has been done so many times here.

You can preach until you're blue in the face. Most people just aren't going to get it and they don't want to get it. The best thing to do if you don't like it is to fight it.

i agree if we sit back and do nothing, than nothing will happen, but if we take a stand, and do something , then and only then will we get some where, so lets go girls, what are we waiting for.:2c:

[CaptLex]

Skimming is bad, ya missed what makes that, make sence. :D
Nope, didn't skim . . . I've read this whole thread from top to bottom, but that line made no sense to me so I questioned it.

Vanya and Nigella - you can tell them till you're blue in the face and it won't make a bit of difference. That's why these topics keep coming up here over and over and over again. I admire your resilience, though.

Here's what I don't get, people . . .

1. What's with all the GG bashing? How is it their fault that you feel you can't wear what you want?

2. There are so many crossdressers here (and elsewhere, I'm sure) who would like the right to dress without being discriminated against. Seems to me all you got to do is organize. There's strength in numbers. If everyone jumped on the same bandwagon, you could stand up to all the narrow-minded, misinformed and transphobic people out there. Why is no one doing this?

[Sweet Jane]

I don't wish to turn any tables...goodness it's only courage that I am lacking and I'd be out on the streets. Many here have had only positive outcomes of dressing, and yes, if we ever are to be accepted maybe we could take a leaf out of this guys book...at least he's given us a profile
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10393687

[USNguyNskirt]

What a ridiculous comparison! Look at what women wear. They wear women's pants, women's blouses, women's flats and loafers, women's... everything. All of those items are cut, sewn, and styled for women. You might have a point if, in addition to wearing pants and no makeup, if they also bound their breasts to appear flat chested , attached beards and mustaches to their faces, and stuffed a pair of socks down the front of their pants, so as to appear manly and macho. But they don't. They never did and never will. Yet on the other hand, crossdressers tuck, wear padded bras, and do other things to appear to be women, not regular men in a skirt. Moreover, crossdressers often dress so as to appear, in their minds anyway, as sexy women.

OK, women might toss on a men's windbreaker, but basically those things are unisex anyway. If you want to wear men's skirts, get a kilt. Otherwise, this entire thread is pointless subterfuge.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with this statement. You completely generalize that all crossdressers, tuck, wear padded bras and do other things to "appear as women. Look at my avatar before you generalize like that. We are all different and stereotypes SUCK. I am a guy in a skirt, so I guess this no makes this point more valid???What about the fact that there are designers that actually make panties bras and skirts SPECIFICALLY for GUYS???Now does this point have more validity. They make Mens skirts, AND kilts, and last time I checked, a kilt and a skirt, was BASICALLY the same thing. Look up the definition in Websters, I betcha the definition is pretty close. Let me post a picture of a skirt and a kilt, lets see if you can tell the difference.

And as far as crossdressers dressing "to appear in their minds anyways, as sexy", I know more than a few women who prefer to dress more "tomboyish". Stop generalizing, steotyping, and get off your high pedestal. You are no better than anyone else. When you sign up for the military to defend this country and yours and others rights, then you will understand what choice and freedom is all about, something I enlisted to protect. I have earned my freedom and my right to wear what I want by serving three years, many others much longer, some have DIED for our right to do this. You can wear what you want, so can we. If you dont like it, move to Iraq/Iran.

Sorry for my bluntness but I dont like anyone stereotyping. I am not one of those people that whine for my rights. I am one of those people out there doing something about it. I dont resent GG's for their clothing choices or our lack thereof and I'm not going to make anyone feel guilty about it. Im going to go out, dress how I feel comfortable and F what everyone else thinks. As far as doing something about it, I AM. And I honestly wish more MEN here would grow some cohones. Stop whining about what you get and don't get. For those of you doing it for the CHOICE to wear what you want, by disguising yourself as a girl, what are you accomplishing?!? NO ONE KNOWS YOU EXIST!
Most uneducated people think you want to be a girl. The best thing crossdressers could do in my opinion, is STOP trying to blend in. Stick out, let them know we are here, and FIGHT for your right to wear what you want. If people see there is a market for it, big name companies will carry the stuff trying to capitalize on it. Sure, one person cant compete against a giant corporation outsourcing to other companies for cheap labor and materials, but you CAN get those companies on board. You just have to let them know you exist.

My challenge to all crossdressers is this. REGARDLESS of your reasons for dressing, regardless of whether you are in the closet or not, think of someone OTHER than yourself. IF you go out, say maybe to a grocery store 3 cities over, once a month even, as simply "a guy in a skirt" (no makeup, no wig, no attempting to pass, and maybe no shaving), If EVERY crossdresser did this, the clothing companies would be all over it, it would QUICKLY become NORMAL (it is estimated that crossdressers make up anywhere between 1 and 7 percent of the worlds population, that ALOT of people) and not only would we gain rights and not be discriminated against, but the clothing companies would jump all over it.

If your scared, go out with a group of accepting people, or find a support group. If your worried someone would find out, travel farther away to do it. If you do it in a VERY PUBLIC, VERY WELL LIT place, no one is gonna mess with you. Thats my two cents. If every crossdresser here did something of this equivalent we wouldnt be having this discussion. As someone else said, POWER IN NUMBERs. Thats my .02 [/END RANT]

[Stacy GG]

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with this statement. You completely generalize that all crossdressers, tuck, wear padded bras and do other things to "appear as women. Look at my avatar before you generalize like that. We are all different and stereotypes SUCK. I am a guy in a skirt, so I guess this no makes this point more valid???What about the fact that there are designers that actually make panties bras and skirts SPECIFICALLY for GUYS???Now does this point have more validity. They make Mens skirts, AND kilts, and last time I checked, a kilt and a skirt, was BASICALLY the same thing. Look up the definition in Websters, I betcha the definition is pretty close. Let me post a picture of a skirt and a kilt, lets see if you can tell the difference.

And as far as crossdressers dressing "to appear in their minds anyways, as sexy", I know more than a few women who prefer to dress more "tomboyish". Stop generalizing, steotyping, and get off your high pedestal. You are no better than anyone else. When you sign up for the military to defend this country and yours and others rights, then you will understand what choice and freedom is all about, something I enlisted to protect. I have earned my freedom and my right to wear what I want by serving three years, many others much longer, some have DIED for our right to do this. You can wear what you want, so can we. If you dont like it, move to Iraq/Iran.

Sorry for my bluntness but I dont like anyone stereotyping. I am not one of those people that whine for my rights. I am one of those people out there doing something about it. I dont resent GG's for their clothing choices or our lack thereof and I'm not going to make anyone feel guilty about it. Im going to go out, dress how I feel comfortable and F what everyone else thinks. As far as doing something about it, I AM. And I honestly wish more MEN here would grow some cohones. Stop whining about what you get and don't get. For those of you doing it for the CHOICE to wear what you want, by disguising yourself as a girl, what are you accomplishing?!? NO ONE KNOWS YOU EXIST!
Most uneducated people think you want to be a girl. The best thing crossdressers could do in my opinion, is STOP trying to blend in. Stick out, let them know we are here, and FIGHT for your right to wear what you want. If people see there is a market for it, big name companies will carry the stuff trying to capitalize on it. Sure, one person cant compete against a giant corporation outsourcing to other companies for cheap labor and materials, but you CAN get those companies on board. You just have to let them know you exist.

My challenge to all crossdressers is this. REGARDLESS of your reasons for dressing, regardless of whether you are in the closet or not, think of someone OTHER than yourself. IF you go out, say maybe to a grocery store 3 cities over, once a month even, as simply "a guy in a skirt" (no makeup, no wig, no attempting to pass, and maybe no shaving), If EVERY crossdresser did this, the clothing companies would be all over it, it would QUICKLY become NORMAL (it is estimated that crossdressers make up anywhere between 1 and 7 percent of the worlds population, that ALOT of people) and not only would we gain rights and not be discriminated against, but the clothing companies would jump all over it.

If your scared, go out with a group of accepting people, or find a support group. If your worried someone would find out, travel farther away to do it. If you do it in a VERY PUBLIC, VERY WELL LIT place, no one is gonna mess with you. Thats my two cents. If every crossdresser here did something of this equivalent we wouldnt be having this discussion. As someone else said, POWER IN NUMBERs. Thats my .02 [/END RANT]

Right on :) thank you for a good response to this thread, I appreciate that you don't blame GG's :hugs: . I think your suggestions are great, though I have to agree with what was said earlier by Vanya, if it becomes accepted some won't get the rush they get from it now so some would stop doing it.

[Satrana]

Maybe it's not CROSS dressing that I do at all - perhaps it is CHOICE Dressing. Still a CD. ;)

Yup for many cds, it is just a choice of clothing which makes the arguments and excuses made against crossdressers look even more erroneous.

[Satrana]

It is NOT FEMALES' fault you can't wear what you want! It's not even society's fault. It's YOUR OWN FAULT. Instead of sitting on a computer starting yet another panty thread, get out and be seen dressed as you wish.


Nonsense. So the victims of discrimination are to blame themselves. I dont think the feminist movement would have got very far if they believed that notion.

It is our fault if we get beaten up?
It is our fault if our wives divorce us because they cannot handle the idea of a man in a skirt?
It is our fault that we would be prevented access to children as we are labeled perverts?
It is our fault if we get fired from our job?

The whole reason why cds are in the closet is not just embarressment or shame, it is primarily an awareness of the widespread intolerance of crossdressing and the fact that we could lose EVERYTHING. The fear of losing everything sounds like a pretty valid reason to me to stay in the closet.

If cds have an issue with GGs, it is because SOs are usually the first, sometimes the only person, to whom they come out, and it appears that the majority either outright forbid it or put severe restrictions on dressing. Many cds note the irony that women having their own feminist movement and having only recently won their own freedoms see no linkage to our issues.

It is certainly wrong to single out GGs as the discrimination is widespread throughout society. And only cds themselves can alter society's view of what we are. But to say that we should blame ourselves for other peopls's discrimination and intolerance is flat out wrong.

[Jennifer_Ph]

I've got an idea:


It is NOT FEMALES' fault you can't wear what you want! It's not even society's fault. It's YOUR OWN FAULT. Instead of sitting on a computer starting yet another panty thread, get out and be seen dressed as you wish.



You're right on, Vanya. A little blunt, but right exactly on. For the record, I never meant to blame GG's - I was just trying to explain through (now an obviously bad) example that it's more about freedom in what I wear than anything else. GG's have that freedom - and you are exactly right THEY CLAIMED that freedom. Currently men don't have that freedom. I hope your post does not fall on deaf ears.

[Imma]

To Group::hugs:

Thanks for reading post and finding error in message!:rolleyes:

"Long Leg Bra" should have been typed in as: "Long Line Bra":D

It would appear that I will have to stay on my toes, even when I am wearing flats to keep up with this group!:heehee:

Imma:doll:

[Nigella]

You're right on, Vanya. A little blunt, but right exactly on. For the record, I never meant to blame GG's - I was just trying to explain through (now an obviously bad) example that it's more about freedom in what I wear than anything else. GG's have that freedom - and you are exactly right THEY CLAIMED that freedom. Currently men don't have that freedom. I hope your post does not fall on deaf ears.
Oh but they do, just ask any CD who is out 24/7, they have claimed the right.:hugs:

[Christina Nicole]

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE with this statement. You completely generalize that all crossdressers, tuck, wear padded bras and do other things to "appear as women.

You may certainly disagree with me. However, at least disagree with what I actually wrote, rather than a poor interpretation. I wrote that "crossdressers tuck" etc. Note that I never used "all". Crossdressers, written as I wrote it, simply says "two or more who wear clothes of the opposite sex." So as long as there is more than one crossdresser who does what I described, it's a true statement. Pay attention. Words mean something.


Look at my avatar before you generalize like that.
I'd rather not, thank-you-very-much. I see your point, but it has nothing to do with what I wrote. The rest of what you wrote similarly has no bearing on what I wrote, so I'll not address any of it.




And as far as crossdressers dressing "to appear in their minds anyways, as sexy", I know more than a few women who prefer to dress more "tomboyish". Stop generalizing, steotyping, [sic] and get off your high pedestal. Again, pay attention to the words I actually wrote. I try to use simple sentences and a writing style that is not at too high of a grade level. You should be able to understand what was actually written. That which I wrote as "...crossdressers often dress to appear..." Again, crossdressers means "two or more" but not all. Also note the qualification "often."

The entire paragraphs about the military are non sequitur. It has no bearing on this subject and I won't bother to address that either. However, regarding your challenge, I have no desire to appear as a guy in a dress. That simply is an anathema to me. I want to appear as a woman and generally do fairly well at that. Try not to generalize as to what each of our goals may be.

Thank you for you comments, but please try to read posts as they were written. Your replies won't look quite so foolish.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[ankletauntie]

You have hit the nail on the head. I work with a girl who does not even own a dress or skirt. But there again probably would'nt look right on the VFR she rides.
Lauren.xx

[ReginaK]

However I don't think that would help women accept MTF cds because women's rejection of us is not really based on logic or reason, rather it is based on intolerance and fear so I doubt if the scenerio you describe would be helpful in making women more accepting of MTF crossdressing.


It's more than that. It's also biological. Hetersexual women are attracted to masculine men. Men who are big, strong, hairy, etc.. The complete opposite of some crossdressers.



Why just a GG, society is made up of two genders, does not the disapproval of a GM count?

For the most part, GMs don't care.

[GG Vanya]

It's more than that. It's also biological. Hetersexual women are attracted to masculine men. Men who are big, strong, hairy, etc.. The complete opposite of some crossdressers.



For the most part, GMs don't care.

Careful with the generalizations. :happy: I'm heterosexual, and even in relationships prior to Trudi, I detested hairy men. The big studly image wasn't a turn on for me either. Maybe that's why my acceptance of Trudi came naturally for me. <shrug>

[Nigella]

It's more than that. It's also biological. Hetersexual women are attracted to masculine men. Men who are big, strong, hairy, etc.. The complete opposite of some crossdressers.



For the most part, GMs don't care.


Careful with the generalizations. :happy: I'm heterosexual, and even in relationships prior to Trudi, I detested hairy men. The big studly image wasn't a turn on for me either. Maybe that's why my acceptance of Trudi came naturally for me. <shrug>

I have to agree, yet again, with Vanya, Sandra did not get a masculine man, I am not and never have been "big, strong, hairy" etc.

Regina

Most GFs dont care either
:p

[Charity's GG]

As a GG...I dont like mens clothes. Yes I'll wear tshirts from the mens depts, but I prefer the smaller ones the put in the womens dept. As far as mens jeans?? Forget it! Theyre made funny and I prefer the low cut jeans.

What about the unisex/metro stores?

I think maybe the reason some GG's have problems with cding is possibly because some, not all, but some of yall want to push it down our throats til we cant breath.You dont want to give us time to absorb it and think it through. You spring it on us and well, thats that. So we become the bad guys for not accepting you. Some cd's overdo the makeup and clothing. I think maybe if you went with the trends, instead of trying to look like Dolly Parton or (i'm sorry )...a 2 bit street *****, we and and society would be more accepting. Quit with the skanky mini skirts and overdone makeup!...And being female is an attitude too...we're not all catty and whiny, so try to be strong and a little more down to earth instead of acting like the world is going to end.

I know its hard to live your life like this, but life doesnt always deal us a fair hand. We just have to make the best of what we have...So be strong and be proud, just tone it down...

And heres one for ya...Female hormones are a b^%ch!...Hence the attitude of this post:D

[Sheila]

If cds have an issue with GGs, it is because SOs are usually the first, sometimes the only person, to whom they come out, and it appears that the majority either outright forbid it or put severe restrictions on dressing.
.

In reply to the above statement -----------

If SO's have any general issue with cd's it's over the lies, deceipt and general intolerance given to SO's who struggle manfully or should that be womanfully to come to terms with the knowledge that their chosen partner decided to live a lie rather than be honest with THEIR CHOICE OF PARTNER nobody forced them to lie and decieve that was their choice, and as society is made up of INDIVIDUALS, of which each cd is one you as a cd have the ability to try to change societies view but rather than do that some of you choose to attack the people that you lied to in the first place as being intolerent, how would you as people feel if you discovered your partner of X number of years had lied to you throughout that entire time ------ not happy I bet.

As a relatively new SO (3 month s ago i found out that my partner of over 2 years ws a cd and had lied to me all that time) I have been accepting tolerant, tried to make as much time as possible for Claire Jane to make as many apperance as out home life allows but every time I read a post attacking SO's I feel my acceptance level being halted.

You may want the world to accept you, but if you can't show tolerance and understanding to your life partners or the partners of other cdr's what chance do you have of convincing the world what lovely caring decent human beings you are or can be.

There are many cd's on here who I believe to be, decent, kind caring human beings, but unfortunately as always it is the Selfish, Intolerant Individuals who are heard loudest and do the most damage. There is at least one SO on here who I regurarly talk to privately that has just had enough, she tried and she honestly did try to cope but the flaming of SO's and their feelings have made her say F%%k it and her attempt to come to terms has just ground to a halt.

PLEASE PLEASE try to remember the newer members of the forum. Cd's and their so's come here to try and get a handle on things and on any given day some cd's and their so's may be struggling they come for help not to be given a hard time.

Jess (SO)

[Sandra]

In reply to the above statement -----------

If SO's have any general issue with cd's it's over the lies, deceipt and general intolerance given to SO's who struggle manfully or should that be womanfully to come to terms with the knowledge that their chosen partner decided to live a lie rather than be honest with THEIR CHOICE OF PARTNER nobody forced them to lie and decieve that was their choice, and as society is made up of INDIVIDUALS, of which each cd is one you as a cd have the ability to try to change societies view but rather than do that some of you choose to attack the people that you lied to in the first place as being intolerent, how would you as people feel if you discovered your partner of X number of years had lied to you throughout that entire time ------ not happy I bet.

As a relatively new SO (3 month s ago i found out that my partner of over 2 years ws a cd and had lied to me all that time) I have been accepting tolerant, tried to make as much time as possible for Claire Jane to make as many apperance as out home life allows but every time I read a post attacking SO's I feel my acceptance level being halted.

You may want the world to accept you, but if you can't show tolerance and understanding to your life partners or the partners of other cdr's what chance do you have of convincing the world what lovely caring decent human beings you are or can be.

There are many cd's on here who I believe to be, decent, kind caring human beings, but unfortunately as always it is the Selfish, Intolerant Individuals who are heard loudest and do the most damage. There is at least one SO on here who I regurarly talk to privately that has just had enough, she tried and she honestly did try to cope but the flaming of SO's and their feelings have made her say F%%k it and her attempt to come to terms has just ground to a halt.

PLEASE PLEASE try to remember the newer members of the forum. Cd's and their so's come here to try and get a handle on things and on any given day some cd's and their so's may be struggling they come for help not to be given a hard time.

Jess (SO)



Well put Jess:clap: :clap:

[Satrana]

If SO's have any general issue with cd's it's over the lies, deceipt and general intolerance given to SO's

That my be true in your own case, only you can say. However the countless accounts of SOs reactions to crossdressing reveal that the overwhelming reaction is shock, anger, revulsion and an inability to understand the concept of crossdressing which typically leads vary degrees of intolerance and control over the very notion that a man may crossdress. This is separate from anger felt by an SO upon discovering a guilty secret has been withheld from her because the crossdresser feared the very reaction he is now confronted with.

Nor do I subscribe to the idea that discussing how other people react to crossdressing is equivalent to attacking them. That is a devisive concept meant to stiffle debate. Discussing differing points of view is quite different from personal attacks.




It's more than that. It's also biological. Hetersexual women are attracted to masculine men. Men who are big, strong, hairy, etc.. The complete opposite of some crossdressers.
Yes studies show most women are attracted to the macho stereotype which is to be expected with social conditioning and women's hormonal cycle. As any "nice" guy will attest to, they appear to be largely invisible to women especially so in the younger age brackets which makes dating a difficult challenge.

[noname]

As a GG...I dont like mens clothes. Yes I'll wear tshirts from the mens depts, but I prefer the smaller ones the put in the womens dept. As far as mens jeans?? Forget it! Theyre made funny and I prefer the low cut jeans.

I prefer womens t-shirts but only for the sleaves, mens t-shirts make me feel like I'm swiming in the sleaves. As for jean, I now wear only womens jeans. I tried on a pair of mens recently, and like you mentioned they felt funny, waist was way too high, it really was an awkward feeling.

Santara, your posts are A+

[kittypw GG]

In reply to the above statement -----------

If SO's have any general issue with cd's it's over the lies, deceipt and general intolerance given to SO's who struggle manfully or should that be womanfully to come to terms with the knowledge that their chosen partner decided to live a lie rather than be honest with THEIR CHOICE OF PARTNER nobody forced them to lie and decieve that was their choice, and as society is made up of INDIVIDUALS, of which each cd is one you as a cd have the ability to try to change societies view but rather than do that some of you choose to attack the people that you lied to in the first place as being intolerent, how would you as people feel if you discovered your partner of X number of years had lied to you throughout that entire time ------ not happy I bet.

As a relatively new SO (3 month s ago i found out that my partner of over 2 years ws a cd and had lied to me all that time) I have been accepting tolerant, tried to make as much time as possible for Claire Jane to make as many apperance as out home life allows but every time I read a post attacking SO's I feel my acceptance level being halted.

You may want the world to accept you, but if you can't show tolerance and understanding to your life partners or the partners of other cdr's what chance do you have of convincing the world what lovely caring decent human beings you are or can be.

There are many cd's on here who I believe to be, decent, kind caring human beings, but unfortunately as always it is the Selfish, Intolerant Individuals who are heard loudest and do the most damage. There is at least one SO on here who I regurarly talk to privately that has just had enough, she tried and she honestly did try to cope but the flaming of SO's and their feelings have made her say F%%k it and her attempt to come to terms has just ground to a halt.

PLEASE PLEASE try to remember the newer members of the forum. Cd's and their so's come here to try and get a handle on things and on any given day some cd's and their so's may be struggling they come for help not to be given a hard time.

Jess (SO)

Beautiful post Jess.