Tomboy?

[Shadowls]

Would you consiter a "tomboy" a cd or not?

If so, if you where a gg that consitered your self a "tomboy" would you think of your self as a cd?

How would you discribe a "tomboy" to every one else?

What does the word "tomboy" mean to you?



To answer my own questions:

to me a tomboy is gray area. yes it's cd, but she keeps her female personal, but has male qualitys. since i'm a female by birth, i consitered my self both being a cd, but also a gg. i'd describe a tomboy as a girl that dresses as a guy, has some male mannerizums, but other then that has no intrest in being a guy, she just wants to be one of the guys. to me tomboy means being confortable, not having to take time on my self, the ablity to be lazy and not care what most people think about how i'm "spose" to be.

I'm try to though out food for thought or is it thought for food? :heehee:

[boi_0h]

I don't think a tomboy considers herself CD, before I was out of denial for being TS I considered myself a tomboy but I didn't see it as being CD, I was just more masculine than the other girls. I grew up on a farm so I just figured that was who I was.

[Kieron Andrew]

I don't think a tomboy considers herself CD, before I was out of denial for being TS I considered myself a tomboy but I didn't see it as being CD, I was just more masculine than the other girls. I grew up on a farm so I just figured that was who I was.
i feel the same. ive NEVER considered myself a tomboy, ive considered myself a masculine girl and also a lesbian but never a tomboy i dont think being a tomboy has anything to do with gender identity as such as you are still identifying with your female side if you are identifying in that way, in that its just the clothes but being a CD is so much more than clothes but thats my personal opinion

[JenniferMint]

Yeah, I think CD is a step up from tomboy.

One of my tomboy friends dresses like a guy, but still looks 100% female and a very cute one at that, and she identifies as female. She did start dressing this way to try to attract girls (she's a lesbian), but she wasn't trying to pass herself off as male.

Something weird I just realized, though: There's a guy in the M2F CD forum who refers to himself as "just a guy in a skirt". He likes to wear skirts, but he identifies as male and doesn't try to pass as female. But still, he would be considered CDing since he wears skirts.

But there's no analogy in F2M. "Just a girl in pants?" That would describe the majority of girls these days!

[CaptLex]

Ah, there's that word again. I'm not even sure what "tomboy" means because it seems different people have different definitions for it. I was called that growing up, but I never called myself that. Of course, back then nobody used the words transgendered or FtM, so if you weren't typically girly, you were just called a tomboy. To me the word meant that I wanted to act like and imitate the boys, which is not how I felt, so I never applied the word to myself.

In the interest of making this a fair discussion, I looked up the word on Wikipedia (bold emphasis added by me):


A tomboy is a girl who behaves according to the gender role of a boy. This typically includes various things: (1) wearing non-feminine clothes; (2) enjoying games, interests, and activities (often physical, such as running, jumping, climbing trees and sports) that are often considered to be the domain of boys; (3) preferring school subjects often considered to be the domain of boys, like mathematics and science.

There is little study of the causality of tomboyness, since it has been considered a youthful phase. In recent times, however, due to a perceived correlation between tomboyishness and lesbianism, there have been more attempts to find a causality for what is perceived as a deviant behavior in some cultures. Some folk theories might be that a girl spent her childhood and/or adolescence in an environment where the male presence or action predominates, and having therefore a lack of female role models. For example:

* a family with more than 2 brothers and 1 sister or fewer, or single father;

* a school mostly of boys, hence the tomboy befriends few girls;
* simple varying interests, a girl who is more interested in video games than dolls can be labeled as tomboyish. However, this hypothesis is challenged by some tomboys' personal experiences and by modern research that suggests that tomboyishness is heavily influenced by genetic and prenatal factors.

Historically, tomboys were defined by boyish behaviour (especially more physically active, technological, and scientific interests) and wearing boys' clothing. In recent times, as the use of traditionally female clothing such as dresses, blouses and skirts steadily declines among Western females, the distinction has become more and more one of behaviour. A general increase in the popularity of woman's sporting events, and other activities that were traditionally male-dominated, is today broadening tolerance and lessening the impact of "tomboy" as a pejorative.

Occasionally, someone who identified as a tomboy while growing up might come to be identified as a transman, transsexual, transgender, butch or boi. There is also a possibility that a tomboy will later be diagnosed with an interesexed condition, though not all people with such conditions who were raised as and/or identify as girls will exhibit tomboyish tendencies. To date, scientific research regarding the causes and effects of tomboyishness is quite limited. There are no statistics available on what percentage of tomboys grow up to identify as any of the above, or how that compares to the percentage of the general female population who identify as such.

Most tomboys grow up to identify unambiguously as women. They may retain a large degree of their childhood tomboyishness, or may become more feminine as they grow. In the latter case, this may result from naturally becoming more feminine as they matured, making a conscious effort to appear more feminine, or a combination of the two.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomboy"
I like how they say no statistics are available to show what percentage of tomboys grow up to identify as trans, but then state that most tomboys grow up to identify as women. Isn't that a contradiction? Now, to answer the question. I agree that a CD is a step up from tomboy and the steps continue up to TG, TS, etc. My opinion is that a tomboy doesn't want to be male, but enjoys some masculine traits.

[Shadowls]

My opinion is that a tomboy doesn't want to be male, but enjoys some masculine traits.

very true, but i didn't realize that other then in the movies a girl could compleatly dress as a guy, untill while i was looking up things for my girls i did an i wounder google search for ftm stuff and found the mango website. it was like some one turned a light on, wow i could have one of my own, put it on when i want and when i don't feel like wearing it put it in a shoe box ~laugh~ i know it sounds so wrong, but it's also about the only reson i consiter my self to be a cd, the only other reson is because i want to be the man my girls need.

[CaptLex]

google search for ftm stuff and found the mango website. it was like some one turned a light on, wow i could have one of my own, put it on when i want and when i don't feel like wearing it put it in a shoe box ~laugh~ i know it sounds so wrong
Nah . . . why is it wrong? It's the same concept that the MtFs have with breast forms. You use a packy when you want it, and put it away when you don't want it. I wish I could just remove my breasts that easily. :p

[Kieron Andrew]

Nah . . . why is it wrong? It's the same concept that the MtFs have with breast forms. You use a packy when you want it, and put it away when you don't want it. I wish I could just remove my breasts that easily. :pwell said capt, ive had a packy for months! i got one that pee's, one that doesnt, and a spare lol, geez im greedy lol

[CaptLex]

well said capt, ive had a packy for months! i got one that pee's, one that doesnt, and a spare lol, geez im greedy lol
Greedy? No, I'd say you know how to accessorize very well. At least I know who can lend me one when I need it now. ;)

[Tree GG]

I'm a tomboy. Played baseball (my 1st kiss was while on 1st base) & in the mud & with water-lizards. Graduated top in my class; like science, mathematics and work in a somewhat technical industrial career. Love Colts football & hiking & camping. But can't kill an animal by choice (excluding some insects), cry at sappy movies & have made no effort to "disguise" being a GG. Never occurred to me to try.

When my hubby came out of the closet MTF, I of course mildly freaked out and started redefining everything in sight. Examining/worrying about my response to him en femme was a big concern for me because I've never considered myself lesbian or attracted to women (1 of my sisters is lesbian). Asked him what he'd think if I responded in kind - squashing chest & strapping on. He responded with "go for it". So now I'm struggling with just the issue you bring up, what if? Not dismissing it out of hand may mean something, then again it may not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "...being the man your girls need...". Why do they need a man or woman specifically? Isn't a loving person(s) in their life sufficient? Just curious on that one, I have 2 daughters and I refer to them as my girls as well.

[Shadowls]

I'm not sure what you mean by "...being the man your girls need...". Why do they need a man or woman specifically? Isn't a loving person(s) in their life sufficient? Just curious on that one, I have 2 daughters and I refer to them as my girls as well.

the three of us are bi, when my guys dress the become my girl. i guess i'm just a bit over portective about the people i care about. when they dress my male side comes out more, because i know there are insensative people out there and i want to protect them from that. i want the world to be a nice safe place where they and every one can go out as they see fit. i find my self becoming more aggresive and protective when they are dressed, to the point of seeing my self not think twice about hurt some one for herassing them.

[Tree GG]

So true - and I've heard many of the GG's say the same.

I opened a door for my hubby the other day (he was in drab) and lit a cigarette for him when he was dressed. Didn't even think about it at the time & didn't realize anything unusual until he mentioned it.

???? This is just way too much confusion for my middle-aged brain to grasp some days.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I like how they say no statistics are available to show what percentage of tomboys grow up to identify as trans, but then state that most tomboys grow up to identify as women. Isn't that a contradiction? Now, to answer the question.

A lot of has to do with the fact that "tomboy" encompasses two (broad) types of girlhood behavior. The majority of tomboys are experimenting with expanding their repertoire of behavior, i.e. playings with trucks as well as dolls. A minority are more "rejectionist," i.e. rejecting "feminine" roles and behavior, with a subset rejecting being girls.

You might be interested this article (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2003_May/ai_104635133), that among other things seeks to reconcile that contradiction.


Another interesting result emerges from this study. As was previously noted, early researchers of tomboyism defined, described, and reported tomboyism as being uncommon and psychologically problematic. Later researchers considerably broadened the definition and reported tomboyism as occurring in all groups of women. By using a scaled measurement of tomboyism, we were able to reproduce these seemingly contradicting findings. The frequency of tomboyism among heterosexual women (i.e., those who stated that they were always or almost always tomboys) was 9.2%, similar to what had been found in the earlier, more restrictive studies (e.g., Saghir & Robins, 1973). However, using a more flexible definition that included women who stated that they were usually, 50% of the time, or sometimes tomboys, roughly produced the percentage reported in later studies (e.g., Hyde et al., 1977). This suggests that the original disagreement may have resulted from the way the questions were formulated. Our scaled response form gives a more comprehensive picture than a forced yes/no or true/false answer, employed in other studies (as noted in Baily and Zucker, 1995).

[Felix]

I remember when I first came on this site and I was messing around with labels for myself, I hate labels really I prefer to say I am what I am myself. But it makes it easier for poeple if there is some label I guess. I used to identify with tomboy a lot and when the kids at school say miss ya like a boy I say yeah a tomboy have been all my life really they seem ok with that. Ya gotta be careful what ya say. I always say to them it doesn't matter what's on the outside it's the inside that counts and then they don't ask anymore questions lol!! It's weired cos I have moved on from tomboy and now say gender queer cos that feels comfortable. I agree with Capt cd is a step up from tomboy but ya gotta go with what ya feel comfortable with. It's so important that ya comfortable with ya self in life otherwise others won't be comfortable with ya. Well that's how I see it. :hugs:

[CaptLex]

A lot of has to do with the fact that "tomboy" encompasses two (broad) types of girlhood behavior. The majority of tomboys are experimenting with expanding their repertoire of behavior, i.e. playings with trucks as well as dolls. A minority are more "rejectionist," i.e. rejecting "feminine" roles and behavior, with a subset rejecting being girls.
Interesting article, Marlena. Funny how the results changed when the questions changed. I guess whether one identifies as tomboy depends on what definition one uses. Even as a subset of the minority, I still don't feel that word applies to me - or ever did.

I wonder how many people considered tomboys (whether self-identified or called that by others) changed their behavior after growing up because they wanted to or because they felt they had to.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Yeah, "tomboyism" is a single word used to describe a lot of different behaviors with different motivations. We don't yet have the vocabulary to easily talk about the different groups of folks involved.


I wonder how many people considered tomboys (whether self-identified or called that by others) changed their behavior after growing up because they wanted to or because they felt they had to.

While tomboys are allowed a period of some gender variance as girls, once they hit puberty there's usually huge pressure on them to conform. In fact, according to the study, it was only the girls who persisted in tomboy behavior into their teenage who "demonstrated a connection between adult androgynous gender roles and tomboyism." Which makes sense, because if you're going to fight familial/peer pressure, it's probably something that's a pretty strong urge(?) (for lack of a better term).

In her upcoming book, Helen Boyd talks a lot about how she encountered this pressure personally. In fact a good part of the book is her coming to terms with her own masculinity -- and she doesn't like the term "tomboy" either to describe herself. (I think probably because she associates it as a term for girls rather than women.)

Along similar lines, I think some FTMs end up in the butch community for a while is precisely because there's a "visible role" that's at least somewhat similar to how they see themselves -- especially if one is attracted to women. Whereas if they haven't heard of FTMs yet, they can't imagine themselves as one. (Standard disclaimer: while some FTMs are butches, not all butches are FTMs.) Sort of the equivalent of how drag queens are "visible role" if you're a MTF CD/TG/TS who's attracted to men.

[Felix]

Hi Marlena I know that one I was a tomboy as a child but as soon as I hit puberty and realised I liked women I was shut in the closet by my mother and told to conform I did and hated it the truth be known. Now I am back to being comfortable with myself and being who I am rediscovering my identity and developing my masculinity. :hugs:

[Joy Carter]

Would you consiter a "tomboy" a cd or not?

If so, if you where a gg that consitered your self a "tomboy" would you think of your self as a cd?

How would you discribe a "tomboy" to every one else?

What does the word "tomboy" mean to you?



To answer my own questions:

to me a tomboy is gray area. yes it's cd, but she keeps her female personal, but has male qualitys. since i'm a female by birth, i consitered my self both being a cd, but also a gg. i'd describe a tomboy as a girl that dresses as a guy, has some male mannerizums, but other then that has no intrest in being a guy, she just wants to be one of the guys. to me tomboy means being confortable, not having to take time on my self, the ablity to be lazy and not care what most people think about how i'm "spose" to be.

I'm try to though out food for thought or is it thought for food? :heehee:


As long as you didn't mind me in a skirt and heels I don't mind a bit dear.

[Shadowls]

Joy Carter: why should i mind? i'm in a loving relationship with two male cds.

verying interesting, read so far. one of my guys doesn't understand why i choose to be a tomboy when i can be the beautiful goddess that he sees me as and I explain to him, that for me to be happy i have to know I earned every thing I have to call mine, insted of using my body to get every thing handed to me.

[Billijo49504]

I guess I'd have to say a Fto M crossdresser is a tomboy with attatude!! If it looks like a boy and dresses like a boy and tries to act like a boy, but doesn't have the right equiptment. Is it a tomboy or a crossdresser. It sounds to me like it's the same thing. A tomboy is a F to M CD to people that don't know about transgenderism....BJ

[Satrana]

The problem is not just how to define what a tomboy is, but also how to define what a cd is. It seems to me that the definition of crossdressing is derived from the MTF community not from the seemingly much smaller FTM community. The issue here is that the behavior of the MTF cds is distorted from a lifetime spent in the closet which leads to excessive amounts of fantasy play, idolization and desire to "go the whole way" and emulate the opposite gender. In other words the MTF cd experience is not normalised as it is not exposed to public view so unrealistic ideas and concepts are never challenged.

I honestly feel that learning about transgenderism from the MTF community is frought with danger because the cds themselves are utterly confused as to why they do it and what it means to them and what they should expect out of it.

I had a recent thread here where I theorized that if boys had the same latitude as girls to be "tomgirls" while growing up then the MTF community would most likely be much smaller than it presently is as these men would grow up liking feminine behaviour/clothes but not identifying themselves as CDs nor deluding themselves that they want to go the whole way and emulate the female gender. They would effectively get the fantasy zeal out of their system.

Think about this - people estimate that MTF cds range anywhere from 2% to 10% of the population. These numbers also correspond faily neatly with the numbers of tomboys in the female population. It seems reasonable to assume that tomboys are thus a reflection of gender identity issues which affect boys and girls equally but of course are only visible among girls. Probably about half of boys and girls get through their gender issues and grow up "normal". The other half develop into cds - but male and female cds grow into very different animals largely due to the different social circumstances that affect the genders. I think there are female cds who do not recognize themselves as such because crossdressing is defined by the MTF experience which is different from how they express their transgenderism.

So to answer the original question, tomboys are prototype cds, some will become transgendered as adults, some will not.

To me female cds have the right idea of what transgenderism is all about, namely integrating their masculine qualities into their normal personality and lifestyle rather than having the split personality and secretive lifestyle which is so common in the distorted MTF community.

[Kate Simmons]

Guess I'm a "Tomgirl" with a "Tomboy" attitude then. I'm feminine but "rough and tumble". I can be sweet but won't take any BS. Am I one of a kind or just being myself?:happy: Ericka

[Shadowls]

Satrana: I kind see it the same way your talking about and i guess that's why i wish i could take all you back home to CA with me and build a castle. In cali it's doesn't seem all that odd to know some one who is a cd, tv, tg, or ts. the general resonce is "ok and ?" and the next question fallows "are they into men, women, both?" it seems like such a nonissuse. i guess i wont ever understand why every one else makes how other people are a big issuse. i guess i will never understand hate, fear, and nonacceptance of other people.

[Satrana]

Shadowls

I think intolerance is a natural feeling in that from our evolution when people from another tribe were often a threat to our existance either through direct warfare or by competing with us for the same resources. We naturally fear anyone different from us who is not part of our tribe, part of our extended family.

But this natural instinct is easily over-ridden. You just need to recognise the signs and nip it in the bud. Everyone is capable of becoming tolerant of different folks. Unfortunately some people delight in this basic instinct because it gives them an opportunity to feel better about themselves by putting other people down. For me, intolerance is really a sign of low self-esteem which is why it will never go away. There will always be people who enjoy hating and attacking others to feel morally superior.