Scientific basis for CD/TS/homosexuality

[Valerie Nova]

I know that most crossdressers are not gay, and there are a lot of loaded terms used in this subject, so I'll refer to crossdressing, transexuality, and homosexuality collectively as gender identity disorders. I know a lot of people will probably insist that they aren't disorders, but I'm talking from a biological perspective about conditions that cause a person not to fit well into a typical male or typical female category. Just keep that in mind.

I wrote a paper for a biology class on this subject, it's really fascinating. A lot of people think being a crossdresser, or a transexual, or a homosexual is a choice, but I'd venture a guess that very few here believe that. Most people are quite certain they were born that way. The only trouble is, if there was a gay gene or a transexual gene, it'd be weeded out of society in a few generations, since gays and transexuals do not tend to reproduce as much as their counterparts.

Since it does not make sense for it to be genetic, and because most people with gender identity disorders have felt they were that way as long as they could remember, whatever causes these conditions must take place between conception and early childhood. One of the best theories I've heard is that these conditions are caused by hormones transferred between the pregnant mother and fetus. Here is an article written on this subject.

http://www.viewzone.com/homosexual.html

The article refers mostly to homosexuality, but other papers I've read have stated that it can also apply to transexuals and crossdressers. Basically, the gender of a child's mind is assigned before he or she is born. Boys and girls are born having the mental characteristics of their sex already.

The only thing is, sometimes the brain isn't assigned to the right gender. Also, since the brain is actually made up of many different parts, sometimes some parts will become assigned to one gender and some parts to the other. For instance, the hypothalamus seems to control sexual attraction. If it ends up set to the opposite gender, but none of the other parts of the brain are, the child will probably end up being gay, but otherwise comfortable with his or her gender. Although we do not have anywhere near a complete understanding of the brain, it is likely that there is a part that controls self-perception. If this got switched to the opposite sex, the child would end up believing himself to be a member of the opposite sex, despite being told otherwise.

Imagine the brain, with all the regions colored either blue or pink depending on what gender they're set at. Some regions aren't very strongly affected by sex, like the occipital lobe. (which controls vision) Imagine these as being much lighter in color. Some regions are strongly affected by sex, like the hypothalamus. Imagine these regions as darker. On your typical genetic male, the brain would be mostly blue, with perhaps some purple splotches here and there. Same goes for a typical genetic female, but with the reverse. A crossdresser would probably have a lot more purple regions in his brain, and some that are almost pink. A tomboy would probably have a lot of purple too, and some almost blue. A transexual would be more the opposite color than their own genetic color.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that gender is really complicated. It's not simply one or the other in the brain. Some people think of it as a spectrum, but that's wrong too. Really, it's a whole bunch of spectrums, each controlling a different aspect of a person's personality. Also, gender identity is not genetic, but it is something you are born with. What is genetic is how a person's brain responds to these hormones. Some parts of certain people's brains are more likely to switch to the opposite gender when exposed to these hormones.

In the link I posted, it is shown that the male offspring of stressed mothers are more likely to exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. It is very likely that this is the case in people too. It could explain the large number of British crossdressers and transexuals born around world war II. The paper hypothesizes that this condition is advantageous to a species, since under periods of stress, animals are born which don't know how to reproduce. Sometimes it's necessary to have a lower population in order for a species to thrive, just ask any forester.

Of course, that isn't really the case in people. A lot of homosexuals do have kids, and a lot of heterosexuals do not. But then, our species isn't purely an instinct-driven one like our ancient ancestors.

So a few things to consider here. It allows us to understand ourselves. It also allows us to answer questions, like, does that mean my kids will be like me? I'd be interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on this matter. Also, on a final note, were any of your mothers under a lot of stress while they were pregnant with you?

[Shannon CD]

I had a feeling when I saw your thread that you may be talking about fetal hormone wash. It makes perfect sense and is the theory to which I subscribe. Another thing became clear to me as well. My mother is a very anxious person naturally. Anything out of the ordinary can cause her undue stress so I don't imagine that it is outside the realm of possibility that she was under stress while pregnant with me.

One thing I would like to point out as far as genes being weeded out over a few generations;

You have to keep in mind that for hundreds of years men and women who were most probably gay found themselves in marriages and having families simply out of self preservation. And in today's society they are having biological children of their own through other means, so there has never been, and never will be a time that gays did not reproduce, thus making it very possible that a sexuality gene would continue to exist. Particularly if it is a recessive trait.

That being said I still lean towards the hormone wash as the best possible explanation. It also explains why some genetic girls are born with both X and Y chromosomes.

[Dixie Darling]

Basically, what you are referring to here is what as very often been discussed as the "Hormone Wash Theory". I have long been an advocate that this theory is about as close as anyone has come to presenting an accurate theory as to why some people are crossdressers and some aren't. There is also the PROVEN fact that diethylsilbestrol (DES for short) is a direct cause of some gender differences in men and has been linked to certain cancers in women. This was a drug which was prescribed to countless women for many years - even up into the 70's to lessen or prevent morning sickness during pregnancy.

Also, a recent article I read indicates that there are certain "studdering genes" in some people which have been directly linked to homosexuality and transgenderism so it would also seem apparent that OTHER "studdering genes" will be identified as to being responsible for at least some men being crossdressers.

Dixie -- http://www.geocities.com/senorita_cd

[Valerie Nova]

I had a feeling when I saw your thread that you may be talking about fetal hormone wash. It makes perfect sense and is the theory to which I subscribe. Another thing became clear to me as well. My mother is a very anxious person naturally. Anything out of the ordinary can cause her undue stress so I don't imagine that it is outside the realm of possibility that she was under stress while pregnant with me.
Ah, makes sense that most people here would have heard of it. Most people who aren't concerned with these questions have never heard of it of course.


One thing I would like to point out as far as genes being weeded out over a few generations;

You have to keep in mind that for hundreds of years men and women who were most probably gay found themselves in marriages and having families simply out of self preservation. And in today's society they are having biological children of their own through other means, so there has never been, and never will be a time that gays did not reproduce, thus making it very possible that a sexuality gene would continue to exist. Particularly if it is a recessive trait.
This can be attributed to a sort of natural selection among cultures. Cultures in which homosexuals were made to have children, and cultures in which children were considered a sign of wealth, tended to be more prolific. Mankind has nearly always been at war, and societies have needed all the kids they could get. This is also why a lot of cultures value male children more, they made better soldiers. They also needed more kids because of the greater number of human deaths due to disease, which increased as people congregated more.

Of course, the vast majority of our genes were acquired before there was even such a thing as culture or society. Animals operate mostly on instinct, and our animal ancestors would lose a gay gene if one existed.


That being said I still lean towards the hormone wash as the best possible explanation. It also explains why some genetic girls are born with both X and Y chromosomes.
Actually, that happens because they lack androgen receptors. Essentially, their cells think they're female because they couldn't hear their hormones tell them to be male. An interesting thing about these girls is that they are usually more feminine than normal girls. This is because their cells don't even respond to the small amount of androgens in their female bodies. This results in less body hair among other things.

[joanne_mi]

There is no gay gene. I drift more along the hormone wash theory as an explaination for the transgender phenomena. If you think about it, based on in-utero events, roughly 1/2 the human population is already F/M transsexuals. Maybe we're just trying to get back what we've lost?

As far as gays, scientists have found that when lab rats in an enclosed environment begin to overpopulate, a percentage of the rats will develop a taste for their own genders.

As goeth the human population, so increaseth the per-capita gay population. Or something of that sort.

[Robin Leigh]

Nice post, Vir, and I'll have to come back to this thread after I've had some sleep. :)


The only trouble is, if there was a gay gene or a transexual gene, it'd be weeded out of society in a few generations, since gays and transexuals do not tend to reproduce as much as their counterparts.
What about a gene (or genes) which can give a propensity to being gay or TG, but it needs to be triggered by something to become active? These triggers would mainly occur in utero, but some of them may occur after birth, while the brain & body continue to develop and affect each other.

Another thing to remember is that for much of human civilization, marriages have been arranged by the parents, not the couples themselves. The fact that you were gay was irrelevant, unless it totally prevented you from having sex.


The only thing is, sometimes the brain isn't assigned to the right gender. Also, since the brain is actually made up of many different parts, sometimes some parts will become assigned to one gender and some parts to the other.

Imagine the brain, with all the regions colored either blue or pink depending on what gender they're set at. Some regions aren't very strongly affected by sex, like the occipital lobe. (which controls vision) Imagine these as being much lighter in color. Some regions are strongly affected by sex, like the hypothalamus. Imagine these regions as darker. On your typical genetic male, the brain would be mostly blue, with perhaps some purple splotches here and there. Same goes for a typical genetic female, but with the reverse. A crossdresser would probably have a lot more purple regions in his brain, and some that are almost pink. A tomboy would probably have a lot of purple too, and some almost blue. A transexual would be more the opposite color than their own genetic color.

The point I'm trying to illustrate is that gender is really complicated. It's not simply one or the other in the brain. Some people think of it as a spectrum, but that's wrong too. Really, it's a whole bunch of spectrums, each controlling a different aspect of a person's personality. Also, gender identity is not genetic, but it is something you are born with. What is genetic is how a person's brain responds to these hormones. Some parts of certain people's brains are more likely to switch to the opposite gender when exposed to these hormones.

Nice image, and it well illustrates why there is so much diversity in the TG world, with so many combinations possible. (A point I often make here.:)). And I agree, it's oversimplifying to look for a TG spectrum. It's more like a kaleidoscopic fractal. :)

I've often thought of creating some kind of brain map or mind map, coloured just as you describe. I'm also working on other ideas to graphically illustrate one's position in "gender space": a Trans Mandala...


The paper hypothesizes that this condition is advantageous to a species, since under periods of stress, animals are born which don't know how to reproduce. Sometimes it's necessary to have a lower population in order for a species to thrive, just ask any forester.
The great science fiction author & science popularizer, Isaac Asimov, wrote an excellent article in the early 60s that hypothesized that homosexuality & other such non-reproductive sexual behaviour gave a species an advantage in times when it was threatened by excess population.

Also, non-reproductive members of a human society still contribute to it in various other ways that benefit the next generation.


Also, on a final note, were any of your mothers under a lot of stress while they were pregnant with you?
Yes! Especially the first month or two...

Robin

[Shannon CD]

"Of course, the vast majority of our genes were acquired before there was even such a thing as culture or society. Animals operate mostly on instinct, and our animal ancestors would lose a gay gene if one existed."

I agree, however a very imprtant point of Darwins theory is that genes can mutate. Although not likely it is possible that a gay gene emerged after civilization developed.

[Robin Leigh]

There are gay animals, Shannon. And not just one's acting weird because they're in captivity. It's very well documented.

Robin

[Snookums]

when asked why I wear womens clothes I like to tell them,my mom drank heavily and smoked like a chimney when she carried me,and I suffered from fetal nicotine and alcohol syndrome.:D

[Shannon CD]

There are gay animals, Shannon. And not just one's acting weird because they're in captivity. It's very well documented.

Robin

I agree, Robin, but even those occurances can be explained through hormone wash. However, I consider myself to have an analytical, scientific mind (without the scientific training and education, so please forgive me if I can't back my thoughts up as concisely and articulately as others can) and am completely open to the idea that it is either one or the other or both. Life is complex. Our personal decisions are based on multiple extenuating factors, so why wouldn't our biology be the same?

BTW. This is exactly the kind of thread that I love. This is where I can learn and develop a better understanding of human biology without the dryness of the textbook. Thank you for indulging me.

[sissystephanie]

That being said I still lean towards the hormone wash as the best possible explanation. It also explains why some genetic girls are born with both X and Y chromosomes.

I agree with the hormone wash explanation. My mother was a surgical nurse, and certainly was under stress virtually all the time. Of course the fact that my dear Grandma, who took care of my sister and I, dressed me like a little girl may also have had something to do with me being a CD. She dressed me that way because she had more little girl clothes than boys. Lots of girls in the family and me.:heehee:

One point that does need some more info. We are all born with both X and Y chromosomes! The number of one or the other is what determines what sex we become. But no individual has just one kind of chromosome in their body. So yes genetic girls have both X and Y, but so do genetic males, just in reverse order.

Sissy
More Girl than man

[Marcia-B]

For me ,I saw somebody crossdressed on telly and wondered why they did it and tried it myself.If I didn't see it I wouldn't have tried it.

[Karren H]

Interesting......well, not to me.... I guess I'm lucky in the fact I could care less why.... Don't even want to know why....figured it wouldn't change a thing if I did know and there is only wo much room in my brain for long term storage so if I did know then it would push out something important that I was trying to remember... Like my wifes birthday or what she wants for Christmas... hehehe

And if I did want to know then I'd rather atribute it to something exotic like alien abduction..... :D

Love Karren

[Robin Leigh]

I agree, Robin, but even those occurances can be explained through hormone wash.

Sure, Shannon. I was just objecting to the idea that a gay gene would need to have arisen after civilization because it would have been weeded out in the wild. Tell it to the chimps. :)


One point that does need some more info. We are all born with both X and Y chromosomes! The number of one or the other is what determines what sex we become. But no individual has just one kind of chromosome in their body. So yes genetic girls have both X and Y, but so do genetic males, just in reverse order.

I'm sorry, but that's wrong, Stephanie. Normal GGs have XX, normal GMs have XY. The Y chromosome is like a stunted version of the X chromosome. The chromosomes got those names because that's there shape. So a Y chromosome is like an X chromosome with one arm missing. Variations occur, but they are very unusual.

Robin

[Valerie Nova]

There is no gay gene. I drift more along the hormone wash theory as an explaination for the transgender phenomena. If you think about it, based on in-utero events, roughly 1/2 the human population is already F/M transsexuals. Maybe we're just trying to get back what we've lost?
But what of the F2Ms? Anyway, I wouldn't say that the embryo starts out as female, rather it starts out as asexual. If it gets the signal to be male then it becomes male, otherwise it becomes female.


As far as gays, scientists have found that when lab rats in an enclosed environment begin to overpopulate, a percentage of the rats will develop a taste for their own genders.

As goeth the human population, so increaseth the per-capita gay population. Or something of that sort.
Yeah, it could be thought of as a control mechanism to keep the population in check.

[Vivian Best]

I'm one of those that expouse to the theory that "something" happened in the womb! I have no idea what or how it was triggered! I do know this, I was attracted to women's clothes almost from the time I could walk. I was magnetically drawn to my mother's underclothes and stockings from before I started to school. Then I wondered why I couldn't wear girl's clothing. I wanted desperately to wear them but had to settle with mother's things.

My point is that I was so very young when these feelings came about that I see no way that it was environmentally caused. I do have to conceede that my mother dressed me in dresses until I was about three years old but that wasn't unusual during that period of time.

I guess we all have our ideas of how this came about and we will not know the final answer until years in the future. This I do know that this is the way I am and I'm enjoying it!

[DonnaT]

I believe it is a combination of genes and hormones.


Most people are quite certain they were born that way. The only trouble is, if there was a gay gene or a transexual gene, it'd be weeded out of society in a few generations, since gays and transexuals do not tend to reproduce as much as their counterparts.

It would take thousands of years to to accomplish such a task, probably more closer to millions of years.

There have been several genes discovered that affect sexual orintation in some species of animals. For example: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/science/03cell.html?ex=1275451200&en=ab3fa239e94d393c&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

There have been several genes discovered which affect one's appearance of sex.

Report of newly found DSS gene 1994
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9900E6D61F39F933A0575BC0A962958260

Report of DAX1 gene 1998
http://lds-mormon.com/gender1.shtml

Both reports mention that the doubling up of the gene affects ones sex. No idea if they are discussing same gene. Both include Italian scientists.

A report in 2001 of the WNT-4 gene
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000AA9B4-A953-1C5E-B882809EC588ED9F

Then there's the AR gene that responds, or not, to androgen, which affects one's sex.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/90/1/106

And the latest http://www.the-scientist.com/news/display/25087/


A team of Italian researchers has identified a new sex-determination gene, according to a report (http://www.nature.com/ng/) in Nature Genetics. Genetic analysis has implicated R-spondin1, a member of a relatively new class of mitogens, as an ovary-promoting factor, the loss of which leads to complete sex reversal - that is, to XX males.
....

As noted above, the AR gene responds to a hormone. There is no telling how many other genes thare are which are affected by our various hormones and proteins.


Also see my posts at http://crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=530797#post530797

[Valerie Nova]

Nice post, Vir, and I'll have to come back to this thread after I've had some sleep. :)


What about a gene (or genes) which can give a propensity to being gay or TG, but it needs to be triggered by something to become active? These triggers would mainly occur in utero, but some of them may occur after birth, while the brain & body continue to develop and affect each other.
Yeah, there is a genetic component to homosexuality, but it is quite small. Like I was saying before, certain people could have more receptors for sex hormones in certain parts of their brains than others. Of course, the hormones would have to be there to influence them.


Another thing to remember is that for much of human civilization, marriages have been arranged by the parents, not the couples themselves. The fact that you were gay was irrelevant, unless it totally prevented you from having sex.
Uh-huh. See my earlier post.


Nice image, and it well illustrates why there is so much diversity in the TG world, with so many combinations possible. (A point I often make here.:)). And I agree, it's oversimplifying to look for a TG spectrum. It's more like a kaleidoscopic fractal. :)
And then of course you have the effect of genetics on your brain and all the interactions your brain has with its own genes and different hormones. It's really quite mind-boggling.


I've often thought of creating some kind of brain map or mind map, coloured just as you describe. I'm also working on other ideas to graphically illustrate one's position in "gender space": a Trans Mandala...
The only thing is, we really don't understand the brain well enough to be able to do that. Sure, we know what certain regions do in a general sense, but our tools for looking at the brain while it's working are really quite primitive.


Also, non-reproductive members of a human society still contribute to it in various other ways that benefit the next generation.
I've often said that myself, usually giving ants and bees as examples.



Yes! Especially the first month or two...

Robin
Wow. This theory seems well corroborated with evidence, among a very small sample anyway. I wonder why I've never heard it mentioned in any mainstream scientific literature? Maybe they don't want worrying expectant mothers to worry even more?

[vbcdgrl]

Interesting hypothesis, Vir Novem (what kind of name is that?). I was born near the end of WWII. I have a diary and some letters that my mom wrote when she was pregnant with me. She was under a lot of stress because she had some physical problems and was really worried about how it was gonna effect me. She was also worried about my dad's drinking. He was too old to be in the armed forces, so he worked at Lockhheed. He went out drinking many times and left my mom home. She also worried about how the war was going and the fate of her nephew who was in the Pacific theater. Unfortunately, her fears were realized as he was killed by a US torpedo while aboard a Japanese ship as a POW.
I can tell by the way she wrote that she was "down" most of the time. Daily life in 1944 was a real struggle because of the war. All the rationing, the bad news, the wondering when it would be over. So, I would say my mom was under a great deal of stress, both physical and mental, during her pregnancy.
I am very interested in the "why" of CDing. Sure would be nice to know what we all have in common.

Vikki

[Valerie Nova]

I agree, however a very imprtant point of Darwins theory is that genes can mutate. Although not likely it is possible that a gay gene emerged after civilization developed.
Maybe, but it would have to only activate under certain conditions, and it could not account for the vast majority of gays that exist.

[Valerie Nova]

One point that does need some more info. We are all born with both X and Y chromosomes! The number of one or the other is what determines what sex we become. But no individual has just one kind of chromosome in their body. So yes genetic girls have both X and Y, but so do genetic males, just in reverse order.
Not true. Even one Y chromosome will result in a genetic male. Multiple X chromosomes and one Y chromosome result in Klinefelter's syndrome, a condition that results in a very feminine male that can't reproduce. Women do not have Y chromosomes at all. Men have one X and one Y.

[Valerie Nova]

Yeah, Donna, I know there are some genes that increase the likelihood of homosexuality, but none of these contribute even 50% to the likelihood that the child will be gay. These genes might be in 25% of straight males and like 35% of gay males. So even though gays might be more likely to have it, most gays don't have it, and most people that have it are not gay. Hormones certainly seem to have a stronger influence.

[Shannon CD]

Maybe, but it would have to only activate under certain conditions, and it could not account for the vast majority of gays that exist.

Ok, here's another snag to throw in. Is it possible that although most people who are gay are geneticall or biologically predispositioned to be gay, that there may be, for lack of a better term, "cultural" gays?

I have heard that in Asia, where male children are more desirable, that there is a dis-proportionately large number of men and thus a dis-proportinately higher percentage of homosexual men. Wouldn't this lend to a cultural explaination? Or simply fall back into the theory that nature intervenes in highly overpopulated species and that this is indeed a natural form of population control?

[Snookums]

is there a scientifc basis that can explain,ignorant shallow arrogant judgemental intolerence.

[Valerie Nova]

Ok, here's another snag to throw in. Is it possible that although most people who are gay are geneticall or biologically predispositioned to be gay, that there may be, for lack of a better term, "cultural" gays?

I have heard that in Asia, where male children are more desirable, that there is a dis-proportionately large number of men and thus a dis-proportinately higher percentage of homosexual men. Wouldn't this lend to a cultural explaination? Or simply fall back into the theory that nature intervenes in highly overpopulated species and that this is indeed a natural form of population control?
Many straight and gay people are actually bisexual. Environment can push a bisexual person one way or the other. And of course, the population control explaination is part of it too.

[Snookums]

Many straight and gay people are actually bisexual. Environment can push a bisexual person one way or the other. And of course, the population control explaination is part of it too.

Vir,I am awed by your knowledge of this subject,I am learning more each time I read what you say.

[Valerie Nova]

is there a scientifc basis that can explain,ignorant shallow arrogant judgemental intolerence.

Yes. The brain has a tendency to place things in categories in order to save space. The less capable the brain, the fewer the categories. With fewer categories, sweeping generalizations are often made.

Some people with poorly functioning brains have only two morality categories: Good and Evil. There are no categories labeled "Ok under the right circumstances" or "not ideal, but acceptable". Since these brains have very limited processing power, they typically rely on other people, usually family, to separate things into categories for them. Because intelligence (or lack thereof) is passed on through genes, often it can be many generations before the lineage produces anyone capable of thinking for themselves.

[DonnaT]

Yeah, Donna, I know there are some genes that increase the likelihood of homosexuality, but none of these contribute even 50% to the likelihood that the child will be gay. These genes might be in 25% of straight males and like 35% of gay males. So even though gays might be more likely to have it, most gays don't have it, and most people that have it are not gay. Hormones certainly seem to have a stronger influence.

Way too much generalization in your statement Vir. Clearly there has not been enough research to support a percentage type statement. If there has, I'd like to see it.

As for hormones, what is it that they influence? Some neurological receptor? Characteristics of which are based on what, genes?

See everything about us is based on genes. Some are receptors responding to hormones.

So, it's actually a 50/50 type deal. Our bodies don't respond to the hormones absent the genes the hormones are meant to influence.

[Valerie Nova]

Way too much generalization in your statement Vir. Clearly there has not been enough research to support a percentage type statement. If there has, I'd like to see it.

As for hormones, what is it that they influence? Some neurological receptor? Characteristics of which are based on what, genes?

See everything about us is based on genes. Some are receptors responding to hormones.

So, it's actually a 50/50 type deal. Our bodies don't respond to the hormones absent the genes the hormones are meant to influence.
Yeah, you're mostly right, but see, our genes are something like 99.9% the same from person to person. Heck they're 98.5% the same as a chimp's. Most of our underlying physiology is really identical.

In the example I gave using percentages, that was just a hypothetical example, not an actual one. My point was that the presence of certain genes does increase the likelihood of homosexuality, but the majority of people with these genes are not gay.

When I referred to hormones, I was talking about maternal hormones. These would be produced by the mother of a fetus, and would influence its development. So yes, I AGREE with you that say, a gene that results in a larger number of androgen receptors unresponsive to androstendione on neurons in the hypothalamus could lead to a predisposition to homosexuality, but the prenatal environmental conditions would have to be right for that to actually happen.

[Robin Leigh]

Vir,

I think you might like to read this article:

From Early Transition (http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/stephanie.html).
To all parents struggling with a child with gender-variant behaviors….

My name is Stephanie, I am the mom of 8 and a half year-old twins Riley (born Richard, m2f) and Ali (born Alison, just f). We knew early on that 'Richie' wasn't like most boys; he played more like a girl and he always wanted to be dressed like a girl. By the age of 3, he insisted he was a girl. We spent the next few years trying to teach him why he was a boy and how boys were ‘supposed to’ act. But all along, somewhere deep down inside, I knew that you didn't have to teach this, it was 'just known'.
That Stephanie is one amazing mother!

Robin

[Valerie Nova]

Interesting. I wonder what they'll do when their kid gets near puberty? Androgen supressors and estrogen maybe? Sexual reassignment surgery at that age seems like a bad idea.

[Snookums]

Interesting. I wonder what they'll do when their kid gets near puberty? Androgen supressors and estrogen maybe? Sexual reassignment surgery at that age seems like a bad idea.

wait until medical sience developes brain transplants

[Snookums]

Vir,actually it would be better if all humans were born genderless,neither male nor female,when humans reach legal age they would go to a government run,gender lab,and chose their gender from a computer catalog,then humans could be whatever gender they wanted to be.

[Bernadina]

Ok so why not look at the areas that science is just begining to admit exist.

Maybe fetal hormone wash, genetics, evironment, culture, brain development all play a part in our male/female/gender balance. There are probably other factors that have a much stronger influence though.

Got to keep in mind that the brain is hardware. Its the software that determines the brains activities, and science is just starting to admit that the software is not in the brain but in the energy field associated with the body. Remove or damage that energy field and the body suffers or stops functioning just as effectively as if the body itself is damaged.

The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form.

Our energy fields have been around a lot longer than we have. They have probably been attached to other bodies of different genders over the years. I suspect that the information carried in our energy fields have a whole lot more to do with our gender leanings and male/female balance than all the other factors combined.

[Valerie Nova]

Vir,actually it would be better if all humans were born genderless,neither male nor female,when humans reach legal age they would go to a government run,gender lab,and chose their gender from a computer catalog,then humans could be whatever gender they wanted to be.
Well, that would probably not be necessary, since most people are the same gender in their mind and in their body. What if they had some combination of genetic engineering and nanotechnology so that changing your body was a simple outpatient procedure? SRS serves its purposes and all, but it results in sterility and is less than ideal in other areas as well.

Not only that, but I'm somewhat of a libertarian and don't like the idea of a government run facility assigning our procreation roles. :mad:

Ok so why not look at the areas that science is just begining to admit exist.

Maybe fetal hormone wash, genetics, evironment, culture, brain development all play a part in our male/female/gender balance. There are probably other factors that have a much stronger influence though.

Got to keep in mind that the brain is hardware. Its the software that determines the brains activities, and science is just starting to admit that the software is not in the brain but in the energy field associated with the body. Remove or damage that energy field and the body suffers or stops functioning just as effectively as if the body itself is damaged.
Oh really? What science are you referring to?


The Law of Conservation of Energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can change its form.
And the second law of thermodynamics states that any conversion between forms of energy results in an energy loss and an increase in entropy.


Our energy fields have been around a lot longer than we have. They have probably been attached to other bodies of different genders over the years. I suspect that the information carried in our energy fields have a whole lot more to do with our gender leanings and male/female balance than all the other factors combined.
Sorry, but that's psudeoscience. You're trying to use a scientific theory to add credence to a metaphysical theory. But the scientific theory was based on experiment and observation, whereas the metaphysical theory was not. I'll admit there is probably a lot more to the universe than we can perceive, but I don't see any reason to believe that mental gender is in that category.

[Snookums]

Vir for 23 years old you sure have a lot of knowledge,maybe you should take over Dr.Steven Hawkings job and settle this Hawking paradox about black holes once and for all.

[Shannon CD]

Vir,

I did not realize you were just 23 years old. I am HUGELY impressed.

[StephanieCD]

So much has been said in this thread that I would have said so I'll just add that I subscribe to the hormone wash theory as well - it feels right, knowing where I come from and what I'm like.

Also - my mother is also a very stressed out person and went through great stress with a young pregnancy and a rocky marriage. Both my brother and I are "softer" men - he's in theatre *nudge nudge* - and I'm, well, here.

;)

[Valerie Nova]

Vir for 23 years old you sure have a lot of knowledge,maybe you should take over Dr.Steven Hawkings job and settle this Hawking paradox about black holes once and for all.
Heh, thanks for your vote of confidence. Still, Hawking's work has to do with string theory, which has no scientific evidence whatsoever. It's like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin all over again.


Vir,

I did not realize you were just 23 years old. I am HUGELY impressed.
How'd you know I was 23 anyway? I guess I must have put in my birthday when I signed up. Still, most of this is pertinent to my degree in biomedical engineering, we had to take a lot of biology type courses. That, and I did a paper on the effect of maternal hormones on sexuality. I'm glad to see other people are interested in learning about this stuff too.

[StephanieCD]

Was your interest in biology at all driven by personal identity disorder?

[MJ]

Thank you vir you have brought some interesting topic's here. but if all this is true then why can't they stick a needle in our arm and take a quart of blood and test it come back and tell us what was found instead of listening to us and then telling us what we are..i don't think that there will be a sure way to find out.. and even if there were a cure would you take it ?? that might be a good post !!!

[Snookums]

MJ,I believe it's more than that,I believe it's in our DNA.and from what I have read scientists only know about 3% of human DNA,unless they have learned more I don't know about.

[Valerie Nova]

Steph - My interest in biology mostly just comes from the fact that I think it's really interesting to know how I work. Plus, my mom is really interested in this stuff too so maybe it's partly genetic. :)

MJ - that only works when there is something in your blood or DNA that's causing whatever's wrong. According to this theory, any of the hormones that effected the development of your brain would be long gone by the time you're born.

Snookums - The human genome has been sequenced as of a few years ago. (I think it was 2002) Still, you're right that they don't know how most of the genes work. Add to that the fact that many if not most genes code for multiple proteins, and everything becomes extremely confusing.

To anyone interested - this is a really neat video showing some of the mechanisms going on on the inside of a cell. Anyone with even a passing interest in biology should check it out:

http://www.aimediaserver.com/studiodaily/harvard/harvard.swf

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

The only trouble is, if there was a gay gene or a transexual gene, it'd be weeded out of society in a few generations, since gays and transexuals do not tend to reproduce as much as their counterparts.

I believe it is a combination of genes and hormones.

More to the point, there's also some good theories about the advantages of homosexuals (and grandparents) when you look at it from the standpoint of kinship groups. In other words, while gays and lesbians may not reproduce themselves, they can provide an advantage in raising offspring the increases the possibility their relatives will survive and reproduce. Which keeps the genes going. Similar to having greater longevity for grandparents, who can no longer have children of their own, but whose help can make the kinship group fetile as a whole.

Likewise, a mistake that's made is to assume that it's either/or, when in reality the number of people who are to some degree bisexual is far larger than those at the end. It's society that forces sexuality (and gender) from being a spectrum into a binary. So that means "homosexuals" are likely to reproduce, particularly in societies where one was expected to get married and have a family.


Ok, here's another snag to throw in. Is it possible that although most people who are gay are geneticall or biologically predispositioned to be gay, that there may be, for lack of a better term, "cultural" gays?

"Situational homosexuality" is well-documented. Not just the obvious examples -- prison, sailors, etc. -- but also things such as among British women after World War I (where something like a quarter of men their comparable age had been killed), or among the Greeks, where it was used create political mentor/mentee relationships.

As far trans-ness and biology, the scientific concensus I've seen is likely but not proved. There are definitely some suggestive studies, but they're far from conclusive. Joan Roughgarden's "Evolution's Rainbow: Diversity, Gender, and Sexuality in Nature and People" has a good look at the issue (from what I've been told -- I haven't had a chance to read it yet). Also Anne Fausto-Stearling's "Sexing the Body: Gender Politics and the Construction of Sexuality" offers an important cautionary tale about making too much out of some of the studies. (Fausto-Sterling analyzes how often in the research for biological causes of sex differences, researchers have been biased by cultural assumptions, which has led them to see what they wanted to see in data that was actually considerably more ambiguous.)

It's very comforting for folks to look to a biological cause -- both in a "it's not my fault sense" and politically lobbying sense -- but the reality is that it's probably a combination of biological/psychological/social factors, which also are different for each individual.

[AmberTG]

I know that my mother was under a lot of stress when she was carrying me. She was a farm girl married to an Air Force enlisted man in the mid 1950s. Uprooted from her home and family, moved across the country from Wisconsin to Washington state, away from everything she knew. Lots of stress there, plus my dad was gone a lot, being on flight status all the time. And I wonder why I'm not "normal". I'm suprised I'm not intersexed, with the stress induces hormone soup mess she had going on while she was carrying me.

[Blonde]

Also, on a final note, were any of your mothers under a lot of stress while they were pregnant with you?

Hmmmm.
I was the last of three, the 1st 2 died on birth, so I was the last chance and was born ceasarian (sp?). Also on the day I was born, both of my mother's parents were killed in a car accident..... So I would have to say my mother was VERY stressed.

[Kimberley]

I dont know if anyone has seen this one but it does carry a lot of credibility. I have posted it before (long time back) Anyway, it is a good read on this subject.

http://www.tgcrossroads.org/news/archive.asp?aid=770

[CaptLex]

actually it would be better if all humans were born genderless, neither male nor female
There was an episode of Star Trek: TNG like this - and things didn't work out so well for them either.

Actually, threads like his make me nervous. It's fine to discuss the biological, hormonal, genetic possibilities, as long as it's just in the interest of information. My fear is that if people find a "reason" for our being different - whether it's the fetal wash theory or the gay gene theory - next they'll be looking for a way to "cure" us. Don't want that. :(

[Tree GG]

Hormone wash would probably go a long way explaining the why of TG, however I suspect the casual CD'er (fetish, fun) is more like Pavlov's dog. Positive feedback produces desire to repeat behavior. My CDer's mom was probably stressed (high strung anyway w/ 2 small boys while pregnant with my SO) so I don't doubt there was some hormonal waves-a-washin'.

I recently read a published work called "Study of Social Deviance" that was actually more about recreational drug use, however they made several points that would apply to any perceived socially deviant behavior (deviant=outside accepted social norm NOT wrong or bad). Making the "choice" to engage in deviant behavior; reasons deviant behavior continues or does not continue (usually pleasure, "high", positive experience scenarios); devotion or lack of devotion to the deviant behavior; just to name a few.

Even with a genetic or biological tendency toward trans-gendered behavior, the behavior has to be reinforced and nutured to become an integral part of a person's life. Even in the TS arena, I'm sure many people have gone to their grave fighting the gender battle in their mind & soul without pursuing "the other side". So as much as I hate to agree w/ Karren's "who cares why" attitude (no offense intended, Karren), once the choice to cross that social gender line has been made & acted upon - whatever the catalysts - the path is chosen. What we choose to do now is more pertinent, in my mind, than what happened envitro.

[Valerie Nova]

Marlena - As far as the benefits of homosexuals, I agree that it's possible for them to contribute to a society without having kids, and thus help overall. This is a lot like how worker bees contribute to a hive without reproducing. However, the difference between a worker and a queen bee CANNOT be genetic, otherwise those genes would never be passed on. Likewise, the primary predictor of homosexuality cannot be genetic.

Kim - That article is mostly correct, and interesting, but sort of misleading too. It mentions the brain producing testosterone, but really, only the testes and adrenal glands produce testosterone. It also kind of minces words so that it seems like they're saying that sexual identity is hereditary. Really, they're talking about genes being expressed in different parts of the brain. Everyone would have those genes, but only certain people would express them. Kind of like how everyone has nipples, but they only really do anything in women. It's interesting though that these genes are being expressed prior to the formation of genitals and therefore sex hormones.

CaptLex - If this theory is correct, there is no cure, since the brain is already formed. True, there might be a way for parents to prevent it from happening, but that might not be such a bad thing.

Tree - Of course, there are many, many factors contributing to a person's behavior, but a behavior and a desire to act that way are two different things. A lot of people might desperately want to dress in women's clothes but don't because, say, they believe it's a sin in the eyes of God.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

ok here goes. iam a female 100%. my "real" father had a sex-change when i was 7 years old. i was protected/hidden from all this. only told when i was fourteen. it wasnt untill i discovered awhile ago my b/f is a c/d. THEN all sorts of questions arose.
made me start thinking about my father. i remeber having cruel remarks made @ school because if my father was a woman then i would turn out a lesbain !!!! :( how riddiculous. ive never had or will have feelings of that nature. yes, if i see a gorgeous woman in the street i do look, purley out of jealousy lol. but seriuoulsy, where-ever its genetic, or whatevea, its what "YOU" the person feels. i would imagin some c/d fight their feelings to dress quite severly for fear of worrying they are gay ? i hate that word gay. just because someone feels the need to want to be/feel femmine isnt wrong. i love wearing mens shirts ( covers me big bum) lol, but does that mean i want to be a man ????? narh dont think so.
:tongueout you are what you are, no matter you do, or become. if it makes you happy then surley whats wrong with that. we all have rights to do what we want, so where-ever it be c/d, or like my father become a total woman its not shameful. my c/d b/f darent tell me when we first met because i told him about my dad, ( whom ive never seen):sad: because he thought id be disgusted and ashamed. now iam a mature woman, and experienced life, in various ways, i think where-ever its genes, fun, curiosty, or just freedom to feel good for awhile, it shouldnt/must not be surrpressed.
you only get one life ...... LIVE IT to many bad things happening in the world. xx wicked blonde xx :love: :doll:

[CaptLex]

CaptLex - If this theory is correct, there is no cure, since the brain is already formed. True, there might be a way for parents to prevent it from happening, but that might not be such a bad thing.
I assume you're talking about crossdressing or transsexuality here. I don't think it would be a good thing for parents to prevent it from birth, but if we're talking about the so-called gay gene - it would be a very bad thing for parents to attempt to prevent that from happening. :2c:

[Marla]

Isn't true that all populations of primates have a small percentage of gay members(I read that somewhere) and that the percentage remains pretty much stable? If that is true why should anyone be concerned that a heterosexual person will become gay? Besides why would a heterosexual person declare gayness considering the amount of heat that they are going to take for doing so! Homosexuality, in my opinion is a matter of nature and crossdressing is just a matter of nuture.... and having fun.

[Robin Leigh]

Yeah, there is a genetic component to homosexuality, but it is quite small. Like I was saying before, certain people could have more receptors for sex hormones in certain parts of their brains than others. Of course, the hormones would have to be there to influence them.

And then of course you have the effect of genetics on your brain and all the interactions your brain has with its own genes and different hormones. It's really quite mind-boggling.
:iagree:


The only thing is, we really don't understand the brain well enough to be able to do that. Sure, we know what certain regions do in a general sense, but our tools for looking at the brain while it's working are really quite primitive.
That's why I also mentioned a colour-coded mind map. We could do that with a simple questionaire. OTOH, it'd be interesting to get a bunch of TG people & give us PET scans to see what happens.

I believe that by our behaviour we can affect the balance of masculine & feminine in our brains. We may not be able to make the urge to CD go away, but we can sure make it stronger. :)

When I CD it's easy for me to get into a state where my mind goes into "girly" mode. I think it's some kind of feedback process. Once I get into this state, it's fairly easy to maintain. I'd be interesting to see the brain function correlation, using MRI or PET technology.

I had images of pink, purple & blue modules going through my head after last night's discussion, so I just had to make a picture. :)
No, it's not supposed to be a real gender diagram, it's just abstract.

Robin

[Robin Leigh]

Greetings, mon Capitaine!


I assume you're talking about crossdressing or transsexuality here. I don't think it would be a good thing for parents to prevent it from birth, but if we're talking about the so-called gay gene - it would be a very bad thing for parents to attempt to prevent that from happening. :2c:
I think he's also including homosexuality.

No, we definitely don't want to lose our Gender Identity Diversity! :( :Angry3: I believe the human race is much richer because of the existence of people like us.

Robin

[Robin Leigh]

Was your interest in biology at all driven by personal identity disorder?

Hi Stephanie,

I guess you didn't catch his earlier posts. Vir is not CD or TG. He just wants to dress up as a CD for a Halloween party, and he came here to do research.

Bloody tourist. :p (Only kidding, Vir!)

:hugs:

Robin

[Robin Leigh]

Interesting. I wonder what they'll do when their kid gets near puberty? Androgen supressors and estrogen maybe? Sexual reassignment surgery at that age seems like a bad idea.

Probably. That way she should get fairly normal breast development. Bottom surgery can wait till the end of puberty. The more tissue the doc has to work with, the better, AFAIK.

Sad to say, they still perform genital mutilation, sorry modification, on intersex babies in many places. :Angry3: We have a few intersex members here, but it's not something they talk about often (less than 100 posts here contain the word). Some don't even find out they were born intersex until they become adult. One girl here recently mentioned that she only found out by accident. :(

Robin