A Different Viewpoint

[Jillian310]

A different viewpoint: It seems to me that whenever a thread discusses married and/or CD’s in ‘committed relationships’ who have relationships outside of those situations, with either and/or both genders, including kissing and dare I use the “S” word - SEX - one of the first responses, echoed by subsequent responders, is “.....does the SO know about it, and if not, that is cheating.”, as if this so-called cheating is some kind of holy grail. Those of us that have a different point of view are regularly and consistently put down by those posters. While that is certainly their right to have and express that opinion, I have a different opinion which I also have a right to express which is as follows: I do not have nor do I hold any religious beliefs, and am therefore not restrained in my actions by what I believe is an artificial prior constraint on what I believe are human urges for multiple relationships, including having sex with more than one person, and depending on one’s diversity, with both sexes and other races wherever and whenever the desire and opportunity presents itself. Is this amoral? Depends on what one’s so-called morals may be. Is this a libertine point of view? Again, so-called morals are the basis of this appellation. What it seems to me to come down to is a tension between those who have none of and therefore feels no tug from these so-called morals which have their basis in religious theory, and those who are not imbued with these so-called morals, which by their very nature require a compulsion to impose those beliefs on others.

From my free-wheeling perspective, there is no problem with having ‘outside’ relationships, perhaps including sex, at my option, kept from my SO. I frankly don’t consider that to be any of her business!

CDing does have a definite sexual component for me. I feel sexy when dressed, and respond to individuals from both sexes if there is a mutual attraction. My dressing tends to be a bit provocative, and consciously so! I enjoy the company of men and women who are attracted to me.

The so-called marriage vows are a sham. If they were taken seriously, there would not be a greater than 50% divorce rate. A whopping percentage of divorce comes from so-called cheating. So much for those ‘vows’. Marriage merely provides a more comfortable life-style, and eases the having and rearing of children. Sooner or later those in the minority of this statistic will become an even more insignificant number, and fidelity in marriage will be seen by many in the majority who merely live together in greater and greater numbers as a quaint custom practiced by reactionaries.

Those that believe that SO’s have only one secret - cross dressing - and having ‘confessed’ and been forgiven for that trespass have no other secrets about their cross dressing, are naive to say the least, in my opinion. Sooner or later the other shoe will fall, notwithstanding all the pious mouthings of the ‘perpetrators’ and the ‘forgiveness’ of the ‘liberators’.

As for me, I am very content and secure in living out what nature has obviously intended for me without the artificial constraints of straight-jacket religious dogma and hypocritical society in much of the CD community. In the final analysis, haven’t the closeted CD’s who have kept their ‘secret’ from the SO really been ‘cheating’ with their femme persona? Hasn’t ‘she’ really been ‘the secret other female’ in the mix?

[Kahlan51]

"Those that believe that SO’s have only one secret - cross dressing - and having ‘confessed’ and been forgiven for that trespass have no other secrets about their cross dressing, are naive to say the least, in my opinion. Sooner or later the other shoe will fall, notwithstanding all the pious mouthings of the ‘perpetrators’ and the ‘forgiveness’ of the ‘liberators’.

As for me, I am very content and secure in living out what nature has obviously intended for me without the artificial constraints of straight-jacket religious dogma and hypocritical society in much of the CD community. In the final analysis, haven’t the closeted CD’s who have kept their ‘secret’ from the SO really been ‘cheating’ with their femme persona? Hasn’t ‘she’ really been ‘the secret other female’ in the mix"
I agree with this in part I think that those of religious bent should heed " who is without sin among you cast the first stone" We as crossdressers are often the target of intolerance so it would be fantastic if we could practise tolerance. We are individuals and we need to do whatever it takes to make our life work . Kahlan

[celeste26]

Jillian your lack of religious feeling is probably the most significant thing you wrote, and since you have placed yourself outside of the religious universe I can only pity you. I'm relatively sure you dont even care about that either

Anything more would just be a waste of breath.

[Kate Simmons]

Well said Jillian. It's been my feeling all along that you have to be true to yourself and your feelings. There are always going to be different opinions. I respect everyone for who they are here and everyone has the right to their own beliefs, opinions and value system. I actually applaud those who can live up to their marriage vows or whatever. In the final analysis, no one is really right and no one is really wrong. The forces of the universe, be they just natural processes or something created work the way they work. How well we work along with these forces depends on how well we fare. What I mean is that we can't break the law of gravity for example without some kind of effect. No one has all the answers anyway. What works well for one person does not work well for the other. I work along with what I have and what I have is my dichotomy along with all the feelings and effects. What we as people (specifically TG people) do with that is up to us and it ends up being whatever we make out of it. "Moral" views notwithstanding, we have to work in harmony with our feelings and the processes in place in the physical universe not to mention the interaction with others. We have a distinct advantage in this regard whether most realize it or not.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Jennifer_Ph]

I don't remain faithful to my wife because of religion - I do it out of respect for her, our love, and our relationship. I would never, ever, EVER do anything to hurt the girl of my dreams, the love of my life.

[Karren H]

Well welcome back.....we missed you! Hehehe. Jumped right back into the thick of it I see? Lol

Ohhh and BTW....my marriage vows are NOT a sham!! We've both been faithful to each other for 30+ years and I'm damn proud of that.... And it has nothing to do with crossdressing or so called morals (of which I consider myself a person with high ones) or religion (which I have no use for at this stage of my life), or anything else except my commitment to her!! Period!! Plain and simple!!

Love Karren

[Krystenw]

I agree with Jennifer and Celeste.

Anything more would just be a waste of breath.

[Krystenw]

And Karren Too.

[Sheila]

A different viewpoint: It seems to me that whenever a thread discusses married and/or CD’s in ‘committed relationships’ who have relationships outside of those situations, with either and/or both genders, including kissing and dare I use the “S” word - SEX - one of the first responses, echoed by subsequent responders, is “.....does the SO know about it, and if not, that is cheating.”, as if this so-called cheating is some kind of holy grail. Those of us that have a different point of view are regularly and consistently put down by those posters. While that is certainly their right to have and express that opinion, I have a different opinion which I also have a right to express which is as follows: I do not have nor do I hold any religious beliefs, and am therefore not restrained in my actions by what I believe is an artificial prior constraint on what I believe are human urges for multiple relationships, including having sex with more than one person, and depending on one’s diversity, with both sexes and other races wherever and whenever the desire and opportunity presents itself. Is this amoral? Depends on what one’s so-called morals may be. Is this a libertine point of view? Again, so-called morals are the basis of this appellation. What it seems to me to come down to is a tension between those who have none of and therefore feels no tug from these so-called morals which have their basis in religious theory, and those who are not imbued with these so-called morals, which by their very nature require a compulsion to impose those beliefs on others.

From my free-wheeling perspective, there is no problem with having ‘outside’ relationships, perhaps including sex, at my option, kept from my SO. I frankly don’t consider that to be any of her business!

CDing does have a definite sexual component for me. I feel sexy when dressed, and respond to individuals from both sexes if there is a mutual attraction. My dressing tends to be a bit provocative, and consciously so! I enjoy the company of men and women who are attracted to me.

The so-called marriage vows are a sham. If they were taken seriously, there would not be a greater than 50% divorce rate. A whopping percentage of divorce comes from so-called cheating. So much for those ‘vows’. Marriage merely provides a more comfortable life-style, and eases the having and rearing of children. Sooner or later those in the minority of this statistic will become an even more insignificant number, and fidelity in marriage will be seen by many in the majority who merely live together in greater and greater numbers as a quaint custom practiced by reactionaries.

Those that believe that SO’s have only one secret - cross dressing - and having ‘confessed’ and been forgiven for that trespass have no other secrets about their cross dressing, are naive to say the least, in my opinion. Sooner or later the other shoe will fall, notwithstanding all the pious mouthings of the ‘perpetrators’ and the ‘forgiveness’ of the ‘liberators’.

As for me, I am very content and secure in living out what nature has obviously intended for me without the artificial constraints of straight-jacket religious dogma and hypocritical society in much of the CD community. In the final analysis, haven’t the closeted CD’s who have kept their ‘secret’ from the SO really been ‘cheating’ with their femme persona? Hasn’t ‘she’ really been ‘the secret other female’ in the mix?

Jillian310.


Those that believe that SO’s have only one secret - cross dressing - and having ‘confessed’ and been forgiven for that trespass have no other secrets about their cross dressing, are naive to say the least, in my opinion. Sooner or later the other shoe will fall, notwithstanding all the pious mouthings of the ‘perpetrators’ and the ‘forgiveness’ of the ‘liberators’.

THANKS JILLIAN -------- YOU HAVE JUST CONFIRMED SO MANYSO's FEARS THAT CD'S ARE LYING CHEATING bAST**DS--------- it really is nice to know we are stupid gullible idiots, who deserve to be cheated on just because you crossdress and we choose to go on loving you not withstanding the fact that you lied and cheated on us for so long with your secret.

I have no firm religious beliefs but thought that I had been brought up with the belief that you did the best you could for people and especially those that you loved and if that makes me A MORAL HUMAN BEING THEN I AM PROUD OF THAT.

I may be in the naive minority --------- THAT DO NOT BELIEVE CDR'S TO BE PERVERTED NOR CDING TO BE THE BASE FOR ABUSING THE PEOPLE YOU LOVE AND ALLOWING YOU TO GO OUT AND DO ANYTHING YOU WANT SEXUALLY ---- if so then again I am proud to be there

Sorry but if you choose to engage sexually outside your relationship then yes it is your SO's business especially in the age we live in today with all the threat from sexually transmitted disease. I thank any diety you care to mention that I have my wonderful DH and not you.

Your SO has my commiserations

A Different Viewpoint --------- YOU MIGHT WANT TO TRY THIS ONE

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43001

Jess

[Tamara Croft]

From my free-wheeling perspective, there is no problem with having ‘outside’ relationships, perhaps including sex, at my option, kept from my SO. I frankly don’t consider that to be any of her business!You don't?? Why did you marry her then, if all you're going to do is sleep around?? I don't care what you do to be honest, I just feel sorry for your wife. If she ever found out what you had been doing, I hope she buries you... you are nothing but a disgrace to men and women.

You don't know the meaning of the word moral, love, faithfulness... imho, you're nothing but a **** :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn:

[AlyssaT]

I'm a staunch atheist, and a rabid humanist. So I obviously don't believe that morality is dictated by any external force. It is invented by Man. And here is the morality that I have invented for myself: Hurt no one. Keep your word.

Within that context, making a vow of monogamy, and then breaking that vow, would be immoral. Being in a marriage in which sexual dalliances are part of the arrangement is not. Lying to someone who would prefer to not be lied to would be immoral.

[sissystephanie]

Like Karren, my wedding Vows are NOT A SHAM! WE married "for eternity" and always will be. Likewise, my religious beliefs are very strong and have always influenced my life. I was my dear wife's husband, best friend, lover, and her girl friend also. Neither of us had any need for sex elsewhere. We had all we needed at home. At my age now, 74, sex is not all that important!:heehee: But being Stephanie (Sissy) in pretty outfits is!:love:

Sissy

More Girl than man

[Lady Jayne]

A different viewpoint: It seems to me that whenever a thread discusses married and/or CD’s in ‘committed relationships’ who have relationships outside of those situations, with either and/or both genders, including kissing and dare I use the “S” word - SEX - one of the first responses, echoed by subsequent responders, is “.....does the SO know about it, and if not, that is cheating.”, as if this so-called cheating is some kind of holy grail. Those of us that have a different point of view are regularly and consistently put down by those posters. While that is certainly their right to have and express that opinion, I have a different opinion which I also have a right to express which is as follows: I do not have nor do I hold any religious beliefs, and am therefore not restrained in my actions by what I believe is an artificial prior constraint on what I believe are human urges for multiple relationships, including having sex with more than one person, and depending on one’s diversity, with both sexes and other races wherever and whenever the desire and opportunity presents itself. Is this amoral? Depends on what one’s so-called morals may be. Is this a libertine point of view? Again, so-called morals are the basis of this appellation. What it seems to me to come down to is a tension between those who have none of and therefore feels no tug from these so-called morals which have their basis in religious theory, and those who are not imbued with these so-called morals, which by their very nature require a compulsion to impose those beliefs on others.

From my free-wheeling perspective, there is no problem with having ‘outside’ relationships, perhaps including sex, at my option, kept from my SO. I frankly don’t consider that to be any of her business!

CDing does have a definite sexual component for me. I feel sexy when dressed, and respond to individuals from both sexes if there is a mutual attraction. My dressing tends to be a bit provocative, and consciously so! I enjoy the company of men and women who are attracted to me.

The so-called marriage vows are a sham. If they were taken seriously, there would not be a greater than 50% divorce rate. A whopping percentage of divorce comes from so-called cheating. So much for those ‘vows’. Marriage merely provides a more comfortable life-style, and eases the having and rearing of children. Sooner or later those in the minority of this statistic will become an even more insignificant number, and fidelity in marriage will be seen by many in the majority who merely live together in greater and greater numbers as a quaint custom practiced by reactionaries.

Those that believe that SO’s have only one secret - cross dressing - and having ‘confessed’ and been forgiven for that trespass have no other secrets about their cross dressing, are naive to say the least, in my opinion. Sooner or later the other shoe will fall, notwithstanding all the pious mouthings of the ‘perpetrators’ and the ‘forgiveness’ of the ‘liberators’.

As for me, I am very content and secure in living out what nature has obviously intended for me without the artificial constraints of straight-jacket religious dogma and hypocritical society in much of the CD community. In the final analysis, haven’t the closeted CD’s who have kept their ‘secret’ from the SO really been ‘cheating’ with their femme persona? Hasn’t ‘she’ really been ‘the secret other female’ in the mix?

I was going to go into a long winded dissection of your post explaining how wrong you are but.....let me just say if you love someone you don't want to be with anyone else, therefore it makes me sad that you have never known true love, it makes me even sadder that your wife is so insignificant to you that you would be willing to expose her to the pain of betrayal and the risk of potentially fatal disease and you don't even think it is any of her business!!

[Sandra]

If I posted what I really wanted to I'd be banned :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3:

[AmberTG]

I tend to live by the golden rule, which , in my opinion, doesn't have a religious basis, it's just the basis for civilized behaviour, without which we are no better then the rest of the animals on this planet. We have the ability to think in abstract terms, something that only a few other animals can do. If we cant live in a civilized manner, then we'd just be living by the survival of the fittest and the strongest, we'd still be in the stone age, unable to rise above our animal instincts.
I believe non-consentual cheating is one of those basic animal instincts that humans battle every day. I look at it this way, all religious views aside, marrage is a legal contract, we agree to certain terms in the contract, among them, to have a sexual relationship only with the person we are marrying. Cheating without consent is breaking that contract, and the other person has a right to know that the contract has been broken and take whatever steps they feel necessary because of that breach of contract, just like any other legal contract in business, etc.
Just because a person is an athiest, does not mean that they can therefore have no "moral" basis for their life. Non-religious morality falls under the simple rule of "treat others as you would want them to treat you." If you don't want your spouse to lie to you and cheat on you, then don't do it to her. Very simple. If you do lie to and cheat on your spouse, expect the consequences of your actions to catch up with you someday, because eventually, they will. What goes around, comes around. If you plant bitter seeds, expect a bitter harvest.

[Kieron Andrew]

If I posted what I really wanted to I'd be banned :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3:
Same here......i best leave this thread well alone!! :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3: :Angry3:

[QZ2]

I don't remain faithful to my wife because of religion - I do it out of respect for her, our love, and our relationship. I would never, ever, EVER do anything to hurt the girl of my dreams, the love of my life.

Thank you for that, Jennifer. There are lots of us out there that have the same feelings. And I feel sorry for those that break the promises they make in their relationships with others.

As Karren says, my marriage vows are not a sham. Nor are any other commitments, promises, agreements or whatever I have made with my wife.

And to Jillian, when you say, "From my free-wheeling perspective, there is no problem with having ‘outside’ relationships, perhaps including sex, at my option, kept from my SO. I frankly don’t consider that to be any of her business!", it shows me an attitude I certainly wouldn't want to see in my partner. Does your wife sleep around? Does she keep it from you? Would you like that? Would it be any of your business? Good relationships are formed from honesty, communication, friendship and sharing.

To each his own....

Love to all, Susie :2c:

[Kerry Owens]

One small poiint, fine whatever you choose to believe but: what viewpoint will you take if your "outside recreation" picks up a STD and your SO/Wife gets infected also??
Will you tell her she's been exposed to a STD that can seriously hurt her? Or will you go to the doc, get your treatment and keep her in the dark?
Will you tell her, and get her to medical treatment before she is seriously ill or physically damaged from the STD?
STD's are not fun. They aren't always little minor infections, and there are some that left alone to run rampant that can put a woman in a hospital for critical surgery....we're not built the same way as men, and if a STD gets in, it can truely destroy a woman.
Others have pointed out the moral results of your choices and I'll just add my comments on another facet. There are results/karma that are going to be from your choices, and like it or not; when you weave lies, you will get the results invariably.

[Shelly Preston]

I have been a defender of people in past who choose a different lifestyle to normal. This was only done where people were accused of cheating without any evidence of them doing so.

An open relationship if fine as long as there is honesty between the couple
(not for me but everyone is not the same)

Why get married if all you want to do is sleep with anyone you find suitable:Angry3:

I sincerely hope you don't catch any sexually transmitted disease not for you but for the sake of your wife who does not deserve this.

[Nigella]

Sorry people but ...

Jillian is entitled to her views as stated in the forum rules "All members of the forum have the right to post and reply to posts and generally take advantage of the features of the forum without abuse from other members"

however, by responding to this thread it has BEEN GIVEN CREDIBILITY IT DOES NOT DESERVE :2c:

[Deborah]

Jillian your lack of religious feeling is probably the most significant thing you wrote, and since you have placed yourself outside of the religious universe I can only pity you. I'm relatively sure you dont even care about that either

Anything more would just be a waste of breath.

:iagree:

[Angie G]

Jennifer PH I echo your words 100% my wife and I have been married 38 years and will stay that way :hugs:
Angie

[rickie121x]

I'm a staunch atheist, and a rabid humanist. So I obviously don't believe that morality is dictated by any external force. It is invented by Man. And here is the morality that I have invented for myself: Hurt no one. Keep your word. ....Within that context, making a vow of monogamy, and then breaking that vow, would be immoral. Being in a marriage in which sexual dalliances are part of the arrangement is not. Lying to someone who would prefer to not be lied to would be immoral. Alyssa, I agree whole-heartedly! :yt: The finest relationship of my life was with a GG who was part of an "open relationship" where sexual dalliances were understood to be a normal part of "their" lives. Again, I have never seen a more true and caring and suportive husband-wife relationship than theirs! It was and still is wonderful to see.

And yet, after 20 years of marriage, the excitement and stimulation of sensuality had faded for them - with their mutual exchange. The decision to have sex with others was made carefully and with deliberation re health, re the continuance of their partnership, re having a more fulfiling life. I was so fortunate to have been a part of that - to have learned how to be human with a larger outlook on life....

Rickie

[AmberTG]

Just another note, I've personally been through 2 relationships where cheating was involved, by my SO, and it was very distructive to the relationship. If you have a consentual open relationship, that's fine, whatever works for both of you, I don't consider that cheating, because it's consentual. If it's not consentual, it's hurting someone, whether they know or not, whether you care or not. That's my opinion, anyway.

[Stephenie S]

The last time I mentioned morals here I was called a "Hawkish conservative talk show host". So here we go again.

MORALS. A dirty word?

My commitment to my wife has NOTHING to do with artificial religious constraints.

My commitment to my wife has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I have given my word that I will be faithful. I am a man (person?) of my word. She now has every right to expect that I will hold to that word. She has promised me the same. I also expect her to remain faithful.

This is NOT just for "convienience". It is also, in this day of AIDS and other STDs, an arrangement of self preservation .

I wonder if you would be so happy with your infidelity when you contract AIDS because your wife cheated on YOU. It's pretty easy these days. I think women are the fastest growing population of HIV victims.

I am sorry, but I think your behavior is shameful. I think your behavior is IMMORAL.

MHO

Stephenie

[Deborah]

Oh Stephanie you Hawkish conservative talk show host you!! :heehee:

I do agree that you don't have to be religious to be moral. Great point. :)

[Jennifer_Ph]

:worship: Dang talk show hosts. :wasntme::devil::happy:

[JulieCDorlando]

:eek: Uh Hello,
I am a bit perplexed and saddened by this post. I consider myself to be some what spiritual and I use my spirituality to guide me through my life. I do not judge anyone as it isn't my place to do that.
It appears at least from my perspective that Jill's tirade is hostile, and selfish. Hostile in the sense that Jill is angry at those who judge the behavior he embraces,and also at his wife. Jill stood before witnesses, a judge, or clergymen and vowed to be faithful to whom he married on that day. In my opinion to blatantly go beyond the marriage for sexual gratification is sad and appalling. Not to mention extremely risky in this day and age. To totally disregard his wife's feelings and betraying her love and trust, to willfully dismiss the vows as being worthless that he made to her on that day is so very sad. That at least to me shows a very selfish attitude and individual, and feels that he is entitled to do as he pleases, no matter who else it affects. Also it could be Jill has little regard or respect for himself, It is one thing to go outside of a marriage for gratification as long as it is a mutal consent between a man and wife. But to secretly go and find an affair, just isn't right no matter how an individual thinks or can justify it. If by chance Jill's wife finds out about it, this individual will pay a heavy price for the indescretions that this person brought on himself. To continue to live by this behavior soon enough Ms. Jill will be alone in this world with no one to love him.
Jill should look within himself and decide if he wishes to continue on with this behavior, he should have the dignity to tell his wife that he wants out of the marriage. Not to sneak around and seek happiness where happiness can not be found.
To have a wife that dearly loves you, who is a loyal wife, a trusting wife, a devoted wife, even despite all the short commings a husband may have and maybe even accept a lifestyle (CDing) that most of the world finds implorable, a husband should be kneeling before her and practically worship that woman. She is worth more than all riches that this world can offer in exchange.
I wish Jill all the best, but it is my hope that he stop this deplorable behavior and realize what he has, that he is indeed hurting someone close to him. :thumbsdn: :thumbsdn: :mad:

[GG Vanya]

A different viewpoint: It seems to me that whenever a thread discusses married and/or CD’s in ‘committed relationships’ who have relationships outside of those situations, with either and/or both genders, including kissing and dare I use the “S” word - SEX - one of the first responses, echoed by subsequent responders, is “.....does the SO know about it, and if not, that is cheating.”, as if this so-called cheating is some kind of holy grail. Those of us that have a different point of view are regularly and consistently put down by those posters. While that is certainly their right to have and express that opinion, I have a different opinion which I also have a right to express which is as follows: I do not have nor do I hold any religious beliefs, and am therefore not restrained in my actions by what I believe is an artificial prior constraint on what I believe are human urges for multiple relationships, including having sex with more than one person, and depending on one’s diversity, with both sexes and other races wherever and whenever the desire and opportunity presents itself. Is this amoral?

Canines would agree absolutely with this POV.

Depends on what one’s so-called morals may be. Is this a libertine point of view? Again, so-called morals are the basis of this appellation. What it seems to me to come down to is a tension between those who have none of and therefore feels no tug from these so-called morals which have their basis in religious theory, and those who are not imbued with these so-called morals, which by their very nature require a compulsion to impose those beliefs on others.

From my free-wheeling perspective, there is no problem with having ‘outside’ relationships, perhaps including sex, at my option, kept from my SO. I frankly don’t consider that to be any of her business!

Was this position made clear to your wife at the signing of your contract with her? (and all religious aspects aside, a marriage license IS a legal and binding contract)
CDing does have a definite sexual component for me. I feel sexy when dressed, and respond to individuals from both sexes if there is a mutual attraction. My dressing tends to be a bit provocative, and consciously so! I enjoy the company of men and women who are attracted to me.


Are you certain they are attracted to you? Or are they attracted to what they perceive to be a quick and easy, no strings attached, tumble in the hay? For your sake, I hope you take a long hard look at these attractions.

The so-called marriage vows are a sham. If they were taken seriously, there would not be a greater than 50% divorce rate. A whopping percentage of divorce comes from so-called cheating. So much for those ‘vows’. Marriage merely provides a more comfortable life-style, and eases the having and rearing of children. Sooner or later those in the minority of this statistic will become an even more insignificant number, and fidelity in marriage will be seen by many in the majority who merely live together in greater and greater numbers as a quaint custom practiced by reactionaries.

While I feel certain you are correct concerning YOUR marriage vows, please don't presume to speak for me and mine.

Those that believe that SO’s have only one secret - cross dressing - and having ‘confessed’ and been forgiven for that trespass have no other secrets about their cross dressing, are naive to say the least, in my opinion. Sooner or later the other shoe will fall, notwithstanding all the pious mouthings of the ‘perpetrators’ and the ‘forgiveness’ of the ‘liberators’.

Well, in my case and Trudi's, there was no "confession" to begin with. Trudi chose to share this part of who she is well into the beginning of our dating. While I accepted Trudi totally and immediately, there was no "forgiving" necessary then, nor now. The fact that she never kept that secret from me, makes me confident in *my* belief there are no other shoes to drop.

I feel your entire "you're gonna get it sooner or later" hints to the accepting SO's here, to me, is nothing but a vicious attempt to undermine those relationships you're missing out on.

As for me, I am very content and secure in living out what nature has obviously intended for me without the artificial constraints of straight-jacket religious dogma and hypocritical society in much of the CD community. In the final analysis, haven’t the closeted CD’s who have kept their ‘secret’ from the SO really been ‘cheating’ with their femme persona? Hasn’t ‘she’ really been ‘the secret other female’ in the mix?

Again, in my opinion, this is an extremely lame attempt at justification for your actions.

In closing I will say this, which I will admit are my opinions and mine only:

I am insulted, offended, and embarassed that someone like this chooses *MY* birth gender as a conduit and excuse to abandon all sense of integrity.

To the wives of CDs who are new to this forum, PLEASE understand that this behavior is indeed the exception rather than the rule.


My prayers are with your wife who I have a feeling has decided the marriage is a sham as well, and hopefully has abandoned the marriage bed.

[Sky]

Jillian,

On behalf of the IACAIC (International Association of Cheating Atheist Immoral Crossdressers), receive my warmest congratulations!

(of course it exists, I just created it!) :lol:

Sky

PS: Also a warm salute to all the hawkish conservative talk show hosts. Radio would be so boring without you.

[AmberTG]

This is something i forgot to say when I was giving my opinion on the subject. My opinion is just that, an opinion, it's not written in stone. If Jillian310 chooses to live her life in a certain way, I have no right to tell her that she can't do that. I can only say what I believe and what I would do personally. As long as she isn't breaking any laws, she has the right to conduct her life in whatever way she chooses. I don't have to like it, but it's not my place to tell her that she can't live that way. She gets to make those choices for herself, that's what freedom is all about, the ability to choose your lifestyle. I need to remind myself of that, because I choose to live a lifestyle that is outside of what society considers normal. freedom is about being able to choose. There are concequences to any choice we make in life, if she's willing to accept that, then she's free to choose her lifestyle.
Amber

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

i really cannot believe ive read what i just have !!! im not married to my c/d b/f, but even so, to even remotley think he would do what u say u do ( im so so sorry for this ) , id rip his *b***S off !!! :Angry3: marriage to alot of people is something entered into becoz u believe, love, respect that human being. so, basicaly u have no respect , no guilt etc etc. :rolleyes:
this is just my view, and im sorry if i speak out-of-turn, but for you to actualy say it, post it , then me thinks some where in ur mind/heart U DO feel guilt.
you are playing with fire, and when u play with fire u get burnt !!!
i hope to god one day u think twice about what ur doing for everyones sake . :sad:

[EricaCD]

If your wife feels the same way and you have mutually elected an open marriage, then ok. It's not a choice I would make, but ok.

If not, and she is under the misimpression that your marriage vows were more than words, then I truly pity her.

In either case, debating the source of morality or the virtues of marriage seems little more than a distraction.

Erica

[WendyCD]

however, by responding to this thread it has BEEN GIVEN CREDIBILITY IT DOES NOT DESERVE :2c:

True that...

[Rachel Newark]

I'm a staunch atheist, and a rabid humanist. So I obviously don't believe that morality is dictated by any external force. It is invented by Man. And here is the morality that I have invented for myself: Hurt no one. Keep your word.

Within that context, making a vow of monogamy, and then breaking that vow, would be immoral. Being in a marriage in which sexual dalliances are part of the arrangement is not. Lying to someone who would prefer to not be lied to would be immoral.

I wish to be associated with the above remarks :happy:

absolutely right.

Rachel Newark

[kittypw GG]

I feel your entire "you're gonna get it sooner or later" hints to the accepting SO's here, to me, is nothing but a vicious attempt to undermine those relationships you're missing out on.


Vanya you hit the core of what is really wrong here. Jillian is missing out and just like a child who is not having fun, he will try to be destructive and ruin it for others. Misery does love company so they say. I also hope that Mrs. Jillian has abandonded her marital bed. She will be a lot safer.

Jillian , all of us reap what we sow regardless of our religious affiliations. Hope when your harvest comes in someone with compassion takes and interest in you and shows you the beauty of the human spirit you obviously don't have a clue and I feel very sad for you. Kitty

[Charity's GG]

OMG!!!...:Angry3: :thumbsdn: :mad: :rolleyes: :angry: :confused2: :evilbegon :kickbutt: :lame: : :tth:

[Rikkicn]

I'm curious to all those who had harsh words for Jullian and who follow a religous moral code would say about " Judge not..."

Thank you Jillian having the courage to say what is unpopular.

[Rikkicn]

: I do not judge anyone as it isn't my place to do that.
It appears at least from my perspective that Jill's tirade is hostile, and selfish. :mad:

Not sure what to make of this

[GG Vanya]

I'm curious to all those who had harsh words for Jullian and who follow a religous moral code would say about " Judge not..."

Thank you Jillian having the courage to say what is unpopular.

The rest of that phrase is: ...lest ye be judged.

<shrug> Judge me all you wanna.

And as others have stated...morality is not *just* based on religion.

In comparison, physicians are required take an oath to "do no harm". So, are the powers that be concerning the requirement to take that oath being religiously moralistic as well? I think not.

I think you should also thank Jillian for setting back acceptance by SOs (struggling to do so and coming here for assistance) of crossdressing ohhhh I'd say...'bout a million miles? And if he is seen as the "typical CD" I dare say he sets back general acceptance by society quite a bit too. Thankfully he is NOT the typical CD.

Did you hear what I said SO's? Jillian is NOT the typical CD!

[NatalieBliss]

In my opinion your views of the world are skewed to justify doing whatever you want to do... which is fine since you seem to be upfront about it.

However I have always viewed marrige and any other sub 'commited' relationship as saying "hey let's team up and go through this life together as a couple" so to extrapolate out all your decisions and actions effect the other person to varying in size of impact and good - bad. Long story short unless your in a polyamours marrige (both partners agreeing to such), if you want to see other people on the side and expect the other person not to care if they find out, you should just be casually dating.

Something to ponder... How would you honestly react if you found out your wife was sleeping around without you knowing?


Natalie

[Robin Leigh]

Maybe I'm just dumb & naive, but if you want to play around, why get married to someone that doesn't feel the same way?

I've had great fun with multiple partners, sometimes simultaneously, but I don't want to disrupt any monogamous relationships, whether they are legally bound or not. I used to have a gf that loved threesomes. They added to our relationship, they didn't undermine it.

Addendum. I must confess that in my wild youth I may have had sex with people without first inquiring about their marital status. OTOH, I also had sex with some people without even knowing their name...

Robin

[Sky]

I'm a staunch atheist, and a rabid humanist. So I obviously don't believe that morality is dictated by any external force. It is invented by Man. And here is the morality that I have invented for myself: Hurt no one. Keep your word.

Within that context, making a vow of monogamy, and then breaking that vow, would be immoral. Being in a marriage in which sexual dalliances are part of the arrangement is not. Lying to someone who would prefer to not be lied to would be immoral.

Ok. And, in agreement with your statement and the concept of value pluralism, since you have created your own morality (moral system is more like it), it is only strictly valid for you. Neither for Jillian, nor for me, nor for any other girl who simply does not share the same values.

Incidentally, as a mostly convinced atheist and a kind humanist, I found your choice of adjectives quite unusual. I'm more Vonnegut than Mencken. :p

[Sharon]

Whatever floats your boat, Jillian -- you have a right to do and say what you want. The other members, those who reply to you, also have a right to respond as they wish. As your opinion is in a minority here -- again, just among those who respond to you -- you have to expect to be dragged upon the coals a bit -- fidelity is a touchy subject.

I won't comment on your lifestyle because I just don't understand the desire to be unfaithful to someone you supposedly love -- whether it be a spouse, BF/GF, etc.

[Julie York]

It's interesting who is upset about the values expressed and who is upset about bringing CDing into disrepute by association.

[Ashley in Virginia]

I have read this several times. And in the end I conclude that frankly I dont give a rats ass about what this person does with their life.

All I am happy about here is the fact that this thread is open as I do appreciate the ability to speak freely about what we are thinking and feeling. :)

For everyone to get worked up about it, I just want to ask why?

Do you think that being all up in arms and attacking this person's decision will make them say "golly gee, I have had it all wrong. I will do better"

If you honestly believe the Original poster to be a "horrible person" then your silence would have spoken volumes about your feelings. The ignore feature in your User Cp is a valuable tool. :)

[sparks]

So was this thread created as bomb to be dropped and watch the forum gasp in disbelief. IT seems a little funny that the one who created has not dropped in to defend any of the statements she claimed or to rebuke any of the statements the forum has made.
I for one cannot believe that there is such an uncaring and sefish person as this. Cding has many selfish facets to it but this really over the top.
May your spouse come to realize what you are and leave you face down in her wake.

[PattieAnn]

As a student of life this I know. The most righteous and preachy among us are some of the biggest offenders of those very same morals they so righteously jam down the throats of others.

PattieAnn

[GG Vanya]

Speaking of morality: I had to sign a "morality clause" with my job for the Federal Government. I did so willingly and freely, simply wasn't an issue for me.

Their reasons are sound, and have nothing to do with being judgemental. I promise not to engage in activity for which I could be blackmailed into revealing information pertaining to my job. Does being married to a CD fall into that category? Absolutely not.

I think you'll be shocked to see how many businesses *do* require signing a morality clause if you google "morality clause". Many times morality just makes good business sense.

[PattieAnn]

Speaking of morality: I had to sign a "morality clause" with my job for the Federal Government. I did so willingly and freely, simply wasn't an issue for me.

Their reasons are sound, and have nothing to do with being judgemental. I promise not to engage in activity for which I could be blackmailed into revealing information pertaining to my job. Does being married to a CD fall into that category? Absolutely not.

I think you'll be shocked to see how many businesses *do* require signing a morality clause if you google "morality clause". Many times morality just makes good business sense.

I agree. Look at Bill Clinton and JFK and Kennedy (lets forget the drowning) and the current page scandal with the other side of the isle and the Catholic church and the vows the all the priests took. I was an altar boy by the way. Wish I could’a been and altar girl.~ but I digress.

Makes perfect sense to me. Ain’t no people more moral than the ones that pledge morality and then tell you how moral they are.

Where do we sign up?


PattieAnn

[Janelle Marshall]

I am not sinless and am not casting any stones here. Please consider that "morality" is what separates humans from many other animals. My morality does not come from religious dogma, but from what others here have stated as doing the right thing and do as you have said you would do. Committment is committment, period, not just when it is convenient or until a better offer comes around. I don't know who said it but I like this quote, " Stand for something or you will fall for anything".

[Jillian310]

A crush of work has denied me the opportunity to respond to some of the above, but when I get the time over the weekend I will get back to this. In general, however, glancing over some of the posts, the expected attempt at 'moral imposition' has been forthcoming. I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix? Perhaps cuts too close to home?

[Kieron Andrew]

I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix? Perhaps cuts too close to home?

because CDing in itself isnt cheating!!!! it perhaps becomes deceitful when the SO doesnt know about it, but that is still NOT cheating with another human being behind your wifes/partners back without their knowledge thus breaking your marriage vows.........it is a totally different concept IMHO!!!!!! :Angry3:if you wife is in the dark about your other sexual activities then that is cheating!.....if it hasnt been arranged/discussed between you and your wife to have a open sexual relationship then it is cheating!

oh and noticed this question was never answered.........

Something to ponder... How would you honestly react if you found out your wife was sleeping around without you knowing?

[GG Vanya]

A crush of work has denied me the opportunity to respond to some of the above, but when I get the time over the weekend I will get back to this. In general, however, glancing over some of the posts, the expected attempt at 'moral imposition' has been forthcoming. I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix? Perhaps cuts too close to home?

In my particular case, Trudi isn't in the closet to me. But the most compelling fact is...there *IS* no other FEMALE in the mix. There IS no other person, whether in or out of the closet, just another facet of the MAN I married.

[kerrianna]

Gee, my threads are so lame compared to this. :yawn:
Way to poke the hornet's nest Jillian.

Each of us makes our own choices and lives with the consequences. If our mind and heart are true, our choices tend to be true. But I've found that too many times one or the other for me isn't true, or is confused, and oops here come the consequences. :angry:

It helps if you can see the consequences coming, but that takes practise and mindfullness. :meditate:
And you have to care too.

In the end I'm not going to tell anyone what to do, and I try to recognize that everyone lives their lives the way they think works for them at the time.

[Tree GG]

In the final analysis, haven’t the closeted CD’s who have kept their ‘secret’ from the SO really been ‘cheating’ with their femme persona? Hasn’t ‘she’ really been ‘the secret other female’ in the mix?

Absolutely. So I'm sure you'll understand why GG SO's have issues when the secret is revealed.

Religion not withstanding, when they said "...and keep yourself only unto her(him).." the answer was "I do". Religion has nothing to do with it. If you cannot be taken at your word, you are untrustworthy and I, for one, do not want to waste my time having to 2nd guess my partner in life. That's no life to live.

If your partner is OK with your outside interests, more power to you and I wish you all the happiness you can stand. But until you communicate your intent to no longer live up to the promise you made, you're lying, IMO.

[Charleen]

I have deleted my 2 replys to this thread. In MY opinion, you are not worth the effort, and not someone to whom I now wish to associate.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix?

Well that's how some SOs see it, and needless to say they have a problem with it. But that argument sounds like it's OK to rob someone because you cheat on your taxes.

As others have said, your marriage vows may be a sham, but please don't presume to speak for others. Likewise, you may sleep around, but again, it's presumptuous to speak for others. Frankly, it just sounds like an effort to rationalize "that everyone's doing it."

An atheistic Existentialist like me can still take promises seriously. In fact, the principles of Existentialism (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cathytg/exist.htm) put simply are that we own our actions. To ask ourselves, what would happen if everyone acted this way? We cannot cannot hide behind external moral dogmas, or blame others for failures.

And if you promised to be faithful to your wife in your marriage vows, then yeah it's cheating. (As I've said before, if she's agreed to an open relationship that's a different matter.)

I guess my question to you Jilian is whether you're as fervently in favor of your SO sleeping with someone else without your knowledge? What's good for the gander is good for the goose, yes?

[Shannon CD]

I'm a staunch atheist, and a rabid humanist. So I obviously don't believe that morality is dictated by any external force. It is invented by Man. And here is the morality that I have invented for myself: Hurt no one. Keep your word.

Within that context, making a vow of monogamy, and then breaking that vow, would be immoral. Being in a marriage in which sexual dalliances are part of the arrangement is not. Lying to someone who would prefer to not be lied to would be immoral.

I agree whole-heartedly.

[Jestina]

Wow...

I am very sad for this.
I wonder what happened to make it so important to post something like this.
I have not read anything on this site that would make me come to any of these conclusions about what people are "complaining about".
At least if you are going to live like this allow us to believe that you are involved with am SO that feels equally.

Then at least there is equity.
If two people are living in an open relationship, then this is fine.
But most of us in committed relationships are exactly that, committed.

As much as this post and its opening words rile me, I cannot find it in myself to be derogatory towards this person.

I am saddened to think that any one could come to this place in life.

I hate the thought of hurting another person who does not deserve it.

Be well, but treat yourself right.


Jestina

[Jestina]

Absolutely. So I'm sure you'll understand why GG SO's have issues when the secret is revealed.

Religion not withstanding, when they said "...and keep yourself only unto her(him).." the answer was "I do". Religion has nothing to do with it. If you cannot be taken at your word, you are untrustworthy and I, for one, do not want to waste my time having to 2nd guess my partner in life. That's no life to live.

If your partner is OK with your outside interests, more power to you and I wish you all the happiness you can stand. But until you communicate your intent to no longer live up to the promise you made, you're lying, IMO.

This is very well stated.
I have taught my children that your word is the most important thing you have.
Because there may come a day when yopu have nothing else.
Then you will be judged on how you have kept your word in the past.

I never expected to live it out though.
I came to a place where I did lose everything.
I was down to absolute nothing and dirt.
I have been to the place in life where my word is all I have had.

It was only my past determination to keep my word in all matters that gave me a foothold to get back on track.
Those that helped had known I was "good for it"

Your word is important.

Jestina.

This is the first thread that I am sorry I read.
I am not going to respond again to this thread no matter what comes of it.
I will not even read responses to my comments.

See you all in the other forums and threads but I am done with this one.

[DawnRodgers]

I would think it interesting to note that life consists of we're born, we live, we die. Anything else is of human construct. Sexualuty, morals and all the other crap that were either indoctrinated inot us or put forth by some other "authority" or others that have appointed themselves (with the help, often, of their compatriots or followers or those of false hopes.
Religion is probably the biggest example of this. It is simply a way for others to live off of others by offering some false hope for those who pray, live a "good " life, worship some magic "God" and, most of all, give money for this.
Look around you. Realize the vastness of the universe we perceive. We are just a very small part of what goes on and we will all be gone someday as will the universe around us. Here, gone, nothingness.
Yes "morals" are handy. Unfortunately those who are the richer, the leaders, the "best" among us are usually the least moral of us. They have to be because they step over people to get where they are. They covet the power and the glory.
Live your own life to the fullest and hope to make those around you happy but, yes there are those who do this but there are also many who don't. I have to wonder who gets the best of things.

[Sheila]

A I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix? Perhaps cuts too close to home?


To me she is him and he is her = NO CHEATING

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

speaking "outside" the box as they say, and already making a comment previous, i suppose people do react to things like this thread, as most people have strong values, and reasons for expressing their views. maybe im more angry because ive been in s simlar situation. ( GG ere). im not religous as such, i have beliefs/ideas, but i dout i couldnt do anything like has been said. :rolleyes:
i discussed this with my c/d b/f last night.he said if that was the way he wanted to be, he wouldnt get into a realtionship in the 1st place because he couldnt bare to cause hurt the the partner. besides which, iam quite a perspective woman, and so would know straight away what was happening. maybe im not really supposed to have a say on these posts as such, but i just try and put the "other" persons view point across xx :straightface:
"lifes what u make it, dont try to fake it " !! ( talk talk song) xx wicked blonde xx GG:love:

[Deborah]

I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix? Perhaps cuts too close to home?

LMAO!!! is that the best you can do?

[Sheila]

[QUOTE=wickedblonde;606681]maybe im not really supposed to have a say on these posts as such,

Of course you are wicked, thats why they are here, so that we can respond, ask questions, learn, grow and support each other.

Jess

[Nike]

Many members are insightful and share their wisdom, their faith, hope and strength.

Others choose to be inciteful and share their anger, hostility and desperation.

Shock value creates attention. For some, negative attention is at least attention. As with all encounters in life, this forum offers something for everyone. It is all out here for us to make use of the tools available. Some sage advice I once recieved suggested;

"Take what you want or need and leave the rest"

[marika_jaye]

THANKS JILLIAN -------- YOU HAVE JUST CONFIRMED SO MANYSO's FEARS THAT CD'S ARE LYING CHEATING bAST**DS---------

Suffice to say I could go on a very long tear on just how wrong you are to cast all CD's in the same light. Instead I will tell you that I feel very sorry for you that you have to be tortured by such a narrow view of us. I have been married for 6 years and have NEVER been unfaithful to my wife. I take my marriage vows very seriously and would give up CDing before I would ever dishonor them.

I'm sorry you've had a bad experience, but your statement is far too broad to ever be accurate or even close. You may ask my wife to corroborate everything I've said. She's a member of this forum (Chica) and will gladly tell you she doesn't believe what you said, either. In fact, it was Chica who brought your post to my attention.:sad:

[Stephenie S]

Darrah, Darrah, Darrah,

Relax dear, it was "tongue in cheek". She doesn't really feel that way.

Steph

[AmandaM]

I would like to nail the girl at work. The wife next door. Even some hot TG's. I can think of all kinds of depraved ****ty stuff I'd like to do right now with the local hotties... BUT! I'm not gonna do that cause I vowed not to. Yeah, that sucks sometimes, especially when I got a recent offer. But, it would be hurtful. You should get permission, or get a divorce.

Oh yeah, Southern Baptist

[Kathleen Anne]

I was reading through this and thought of friendships because ive been looking for 30 years for a SO who would accept me for who i am then Jestina's comments showed up .
My word has allways been my bond and I have lived with the idea that if possible I would do anything for a friend .My marrage would be the same , my partner would allways know where I stand and would get the support and honisty she deserved at all times .
I know this workes for me because after 3 operations in the last 5 months my mecanic and otherpeople I know will let my bills ride because they know that they will get paid they trust in me as much as i trust in them.For right now I am at that point in Jestina's comments where I have nothing but my friendships and my word !
I must pity someone who cannot be honest with one that they married for thier inability to honor thier word is not only distroying thier life but the lives of others
This is only my reasoning and I am not anyone to to go crusading for a other people to live a moral life .but I allways thing of that commandment:
do unto others as you would have them do unto you !
I guess you will have your day comming
Kathleen Anne

[AmandaM]

A crush of work has denied me the opportunity to respond to some of the above, but when I get the time over the weekend I will get back to this. In general, however, glancing over some of the posts, the expected attempt at 'moral imposition' has been forthcoming. I wonder why no one has commented on the concept that CDing in the closet is in fact 'cheating' on the SO with another female in the mix? Perhaps cuts too close to home?

So, you've been hurt, so you want to lash back? Misery loves company? Why start this thread? Guilt cause she don't know? Seems kinda hostile...

[crusadergirl]

I will have to say this cheating on your wife is just wrong in so many ways and lying are just not telling her. And saying marriage is a sham. You seem to no nothing of the human world. I try to understand why some ppl just don't care about the ppl around them.
I don't go by religion i go by the way of the dragon and i fight for the people.
You should repect the ones around you and do the right thing.
I said once before i'm here to help but it seems no one cared what i said, it sucks but life go's on.
Regretless fear nothing!

[Calliope]

A different viewpoint: It seems to me that whenever a thread discusses married and/or CD’s in ‘committed relationships’ who have relationships outside of those situations, with either and/or both genders, including kissing and dare I use the “S” word - SEX - one of the first responses, echoed by subsequent responders, is “.....does the SO know about it, and if not, that is cheating.”, as if this so-called cheating is some kind of holy grail. Those of us that have a different point of view are regularly and consistently put down by those posters.


It's interesting who is upset about the values expressed and who is upset about bringing CDing into disrepute by association.

Personally, I can't really relate to Jillian's position or her defense of it but I applaud her courage to say something interesting. I found the majority of responses to her post shrill, hostile and uncool. Is this a debating club? - how guy. The putdowns sound overwrought to my ears. And the subtext is useful: why, on a CD forum, are the feelings of SOs held to such a high degree? It's as if there's a pressure to 'prove' CDs are 'normal, except.' I'm sure that's the case in the majority - but where's the liberty to speak without receiving the 'liberty' to be shouted down?

[kristyz]

me and you.:happy: That what it means.:D

[marika_jaye]

Darrah, Darrah, Darrah,

Relax dear, it was "tongue in cheek". She doesn't really feel that way.

Steph

Hmm....okey. Boy is my face red. :D

[stacylynn1]

when you married your wife you gave your word to be faithfull you have broken that clearly you are truly not a man