Do you belong to the "Two spirit people?"

[Sejd]

Today I read a very comforting piece from Native American culture. It spoke about the "Two spirit people" a term which was put on transexual men in the native tribes of the americans before the white Christian Europeans took over this continent.
The American indians would simply wait until the kids were 12 years old to determine the sexual preference. if a boy would show female preference they would simply raise the boy as a woman. Is that brilliant or what?????
They honored the sexuality the child chose to have. How liberating. I wish I had grown up in that culture. Then I would be a whole lot more whole than I am today. My question to you, are you a "Two spirit people" as well or are you a transgender. Seems to me, and I am speaking for my self strictly, that if I had had the opportunity to grow up being educated as a woman, I would have been a lot more harmonious and happy the most of my life. What doo you all think????
huggs
Sejd

[Krystenw]

When I was younger it seemed as though there were at least two of me. The macho gung ho Navy Corpsman that wanted to go to Viet Nam and do his duty, and the good looking young chick that just wanted to stay home and bake cookies.
Now I'm just me. A person that dresses up like a guy to go to work and dresses like a lady as soon as I get home.

[Bianca T-Girl]

Two spirit person? That seems to fit with me although I've always thought of myself as being something of a dual-personality - not literally - well, I hope not! There are two of us that share the same body and sometimes we argue and other times we are able to compromise. I need my space and "Bianca" needs hers and we can't both have it at the same time. Sometimes I get the urge to dress up (that's Bianca asking to come out) but If I try to suppress it. Then that's like me, telling her "NO!" Then the arguing begins, but she normally wins - women usually do!

Bianca.

[Tracy_Victoria]

Interesting post.

I've given this matter a great deal of thought in the (ut hum) amount of years I have been dressing. Ie I'm not the kind of girl that needs or wants to dress all the time, I'm happy to balance my life, and my dressing around my ability to be able to dress. Ie I dress when I get the chance and when it will not affect others, ie my partner who is still trying to understand, and our children. (of course)

The best way I can discribe myself and my dressing is to think of a rain stick, noramlly I'm very balanced and all the balls are almost in the middle (but not quite) as this balance is normally favoured to my male role which I enjoy being very much (ie I don't wish to be a woman, I dress just for fun) If I get annoyed (in the male role) I can become far more macho, and get very male if I need to, and that affects the ballance of the rainstick and the beans head towards manliness more, when needed.

When I crossdress, this is the only time the balance is ever affected towards the female end, and thats why I think my partner (raksha) never really see's any of the feminine traces that are so common to us TV's. Because there there all of the time in the real me, ie the non masculine ME, and amplified more when I'm dressed.

I certainly don't think I'm two different spirits, Tracy is me, as I am Tracy, just the majority of the time I'm balanced in a limbo world which I have lived in all my life, that balance can be affected either way with me becoming masculine or more feminine, but either way, it's still only ever the one ME!

I hope this makes sense. as it's just my :2c:

[noname]

I know I was always non macho, always got picked on. Short and scrawny for my age. I do remember being picked on for, throwing like a girl, acting sissy and the like. My teens, I was constantly asked if I was gay, no one could tell me why they thought that, they just did. While I'm not gay, perhaps a bit of me was showing through.

[Kate Simmons]

2 forms of energy, really. Male and female out of necessity. That would be me though.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[ReginaK]

I don't think so. At least not anymore. What I thought were 2 spirits was in reality who I am and who I wished to be.

[LindaG]

I have the body of a man. but I truely believe that I have the sprit of a woman

[Billie1]

I find it interesting that a lot of which that was considered "primitive" makes a lot more sense than the psycho-babble that we view as "enlightened".
The concepts of Native culture just didn't happen over-night, and many times, exhibit more respect, tolerence and understanding than what prevails in 20th (OK, 21st:D ) century western society.

In that case, we should all feel fortunate that we (as CD'ers) acknowledge and appreciate the freedom to expand ourselves beyond what the norms of social customs. The Greater Spirit may have very well given us a special gift.

On the other hand, I just may be a few amino acid molecules short of a full load.:tongueout

[Angela Burke]

"Two spirit people".
I like the sound of that.
Check me as one of them.
Male/Female.

[NatashaWI]

When I am Natasha my clothes, makeup and accessories put me into a definitely feminine mind-set. Do I totally forget I'm a guy in a dress? Sadly no but there are moments, especially in conversing with others when they talk with me as if I were a woman that I fall deliciously into my female persona. For those moments, I feel very much a lady and find myself revelling in the sensation. I expect I have a strong female side that comes out rarely. When it does, it is heavenly. I geuss I should go out more!
Next Tuesday night, when I'm at our favorite restaraunt as Natasha reading Tarot cards, I know that there will be snatches of time where I will not just be dressed like her but be enfused with her emotionally. Then the her will be me! Can't wait!

[tall_brianna]

That's fascinating. I wonder how they handled the division of bathroom and changing teepees. :p

Gee, it's no wonder that over course of the same time span when population in europe was about to burst, that natives barely inhabited North America (relatively). I think Gun, Germs and Steel should have considered puritist religion practices as a factor. What those heathens needed was a guy in a guilded robe telling them that their job was to procreate like we were designed by god to!

Just kidding - I'm feeling very cantankerous this morning. :)

[Angela Burke]

That's fascinating. I wonder how they handled the division of bathroom and changing teepees. :p

Gee, it's no wonder that over course of the same time span when population in europe was about to burst, that natives barely inhabited North America (relatively). I think Gun, Germs and Steel should have considered puritist religion practices as a factor. What those heathens needed was a guy in a guilded robe telling them that their job was to procreate like we were designed by god to!

Just kidding - I'm feeling very cantankerous this morning. :)
Oh they probably just pissed in the river.
I don't think "bathrooms" were very high on the agenda!

[ubokvt]

I'm just a person I love cooking, grocery stores are my favorite places to shop doing dishes is comforting, vacuming good exercise, but don't ask me to dust, I'm a confirmed wood butcher but sewing a cross stich can be fun. I love my garden vegetabels ands herbs absolute joy, flower eh, unless there bulbs or climbing vines, I love talking with the girls and cant stand the macho posturing about jobs sports and women but politics is different. I'm just a person who wants to enjoy all the pleasues of life like satin and lace in the spring and flannel in the winter with out the judgements of others. what i do is what i am and I'm not going to define my actins by others labels I'm just a person with lots inside :tongueout

[Julogden]

Today I read a very comforting piece from Native American culture. It spoke about the "Two spirit people" a term which was put on transexual men in the native tribes of the americans before the white Christian Europeans took over this continent.
The American indians would simply wait until the kids were 12 years old to determine the sexual preference. if a boy would show female preference they would simply raise the boy as a woman. Is that brilliant or what?????
They honored the sexuality the child chose to have. How liberating. I wish I had grown up in that culture. Then I would be a whole lot more whole than I am today. My question to you, are you a "Two spirit people" as well or are you a transgender. Seems to me, and I am speaking for my self strictly, that if I had had the opportunity to grow up being educated as a woman, I would have been a lot more harmonious and happy the most of my life. What doo you all think????
huggs
Sejd
Hi Sejd,

Yes, a wonderful practice (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-spirit for some iinteresting details), but it would be wrong to suggest that all American Indians accepted 2 spirit people, as I seem to recall reading that some tribes were not accepting and killed them, particularly after contact with European trans/homo-phobia.

I recall seeing a show on PBS where there was a reference to an older Indian recalling when her tribe killed a "transvestite", not cool at all.

While it's fine that many of us can appreciate the term "2 spirits", it's a bit of a stretch, at best, for us non-Indians to claim to actually be 2 spirit people, as the term is much more than just a gender identity reference, as it involves a whole culture that we don't share.:2c:

Carol:hugs:

[Sejd]

Hi Julogden
you are right about the fact that several tribes did not accept transexuals and also in your coment about how Native American Indians turned towards the "Two spirit people" after the white man brought european narrowmindedness with them. I don't suggest anyone take on the name "Two spirit people" just to rob yet another thing from their culture. I simply brought it up because I think that it is a good think for us to know about. The notion that it is our children who when they reach puperty show us what gender they really are, and not are forced into the role of somthing they are not. The Wikipedia article is very helpful I think. Thanks fro posting the link.
huggs

Sejd

[Jasmine Ellis]

those are my kind of people I would love to be part of that

[Tina Dixon]

Sounds good I guess, but my female sprite is a bit hard core.

[Tiffy]

I guess there is only one me with two distinctly different side at first. Now there is still one my but the line that did run between them is very blurry in places. I have just figued out a way to let both of my side show thru about most of the time.

April Marie

[Robin Leigh]

I love learning about how other cultures have dealt with TGism. I first read about Two Spirit people & "berdaches" in Transgender Warriors. Apparently, Chief Sitting Bull had many wives, and a sizable number of these were Two Spirit.

In some cultures TG & especially intersex people were treated with reverence as messengers of the gods, transcending the usual male-female duality. I can relate to that. :) No, I don't want to be worshipped, but I think I would act with reverence towards an intersex person, if I were privileged to meet one.

One of my musical heroes is Jimi Hendrix. He was part Cherokee, and his clothing often transcended gender classifications. Little Richard kicked him out of his band because he thought Jimi was trying to upstage him with his flamboyant costumes. :) I sometimes wonder if Jimi had any TG inclinations beyond his stage costumes. He got hassled as a kid at school after wearing some Cherokee clothing he got when he stayed with his grandma.

I hope some of the members here with Native American heritage will add to this thread. Please excuse any accidental cultural insensitivity exhibited by us dumb white guys. :o

Robin

[Robin Leigh]

Oh they probably just pissed in the river.

Really, Angela??? I'm not a professional anthropologist (nor do I portray one on television:)), but in the traditional cultures I've studied, such a practice would be seen as highly disrespectful.


I know I was always non macho, always got picked on. Short and scrawny for my age. I do remember being picked on for, throwing like a girl, acting sissy and the like. My teens, I was constantly asked if I was gay, no one could tell me why they thought that, they just did. While I'm not gay, perhaps a bit of me was showing through.

I could've written that paragraph, noname. At one stage in my early teens, my classmates would gang up on me and stuff me into the classroom's rubbish bin. :o :( It happened many times over a period of several months. I pleaded with my parents to send me to a different school (preferably one that wasn't a boys only school), but to no avail. And people wonder why I'm not impressed with macho guys on a testosterone/adrenaline high...

(Synchronicity alert! Now playing on the radio: "A Town Called Malice" by The Clash)

Robin

[Kate Simmons]

There is absolutely no reason in my little mind why a TG Native American could not be a Brave anyway. There are many examples of female warriors in history, myself included (but we won't get into that here). Just because a man wears a dress (or the native American equivalent), there is no reason he cannot carry on like any other Brave in the tribe.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Jestina]

Wow, this is a very interesting thread!

Back in 1977 when I began my fieldwork one of the in-patients was a native American Indian.
I remember to this day his name and his face. He would stand by the window all day, never sitting, and stare out.
Most of the non-professional staff thought he was very spooky.
The counselors and psychologists thought he had been traumatized and was very disturbed.
When he looked at you he had dark eyes that seems to burn into your soul. Not pierce, not cut, burn. I could see why the workers were afraid of him.

Often non responsive, his face never revealed any emotion nor expression
Today kids would call him an "Emo" (an emotionless person)
I was assigned to spend a session with him as it had been noted that I have an ability to make people relaxed and comfortable. I was and still am able to get through to the most catatonic people, some of whom haven't spoken in years.

So I went in to his room and stood by him at the window and began by saying nothing.
He spoke to me with out moving his head, I could see his breath forming on the window as he spoke to me,

He said: "You of two spirits"
To say that I was unnerved would be well within the mark.

This was the first time I had heard this expression.
Even without understanding I did feel as though someone had looked inside of my soul without my permission.
I was unable to shake off this meeting, because something about those words was very right.
At a staff meeting I had to report on our session and these were the most important words he spoke sooo...I had to repeat them.

That got some strange looks as heads turned.
One psychologist was well versed in native culture having worked with the government on some reserves, smiled and told us what it meant.
Smiled?
He actually though it was quite funny. He thought that this native Indian patient was trying to insult me, a more roundabout way of calling me a "fag" or some such.

While this got me off the hook of association it unfortunately also made the patient seem more difficult.
This place did not administer any drugs of any kind BTW. (Just thought I would throw that in.)

I knew that this was a wrong assumption on the part of the doctor and today I have the experience and maturity as well as the reputation to correct such a misinterpretation.
But in 1977 I could only know that something touched me as being correct.
I also knew that this man was not trying to offend me at all.
There was a gentle kindness in this patients voice as he spoke to me that clearly he meant no
insult or harm to me.

*************************************FF>>>>>>>>>>>>>

OK then. to keep this from becoming a book, lurch forward two and a half decades where I find myself in Calcutta India with a woman who is a knowledgeable Hindu Dr.

This "two spirit" thing comes to mind after seeing some males in the streets dressed as women while I forget the East Indian name for them now I mention the native Indian term "Two spirit people"
(I secretly then began to yearn to wear a "sari")

THe Dr. didn't bat an eye, she just said "A two spirit person is always a very old soul who retains both genders because they have lived past lives as both sexes and now saturated with the spirit they retain it to varying degrees."

I had never believed in reincarnation and do not want to give it much thought here, but back home a Hindu friend verified that "Old soul" theory. This is another woman BTW who knew of my cross dressing and picked up immediately why I was asking.

The more I learned of the "two spirit people" the more they sounded kindred to me.

I have extreme feminine traits that are very obvious to women.
But my masculine traits are uncompromised and very natural.

I have gone into situations alone with several men to confront and taken total control without raising more than my voice.
I am extremely authoritative when needed.
I have given my daughters make up lessons.
I have taught them how to braid their hair and feminine hygiene.
They freely and comfortable discuss their periods with me and other "female issues"
But they still see me as a strong man and in a way their hero.
They have never seen me in a dress that is more than they could handle right now.

I have raised my children from infants on my own, I am now told by my girlfriend that the women used to marvel at me and be intimidated.
Commenting that I performed both gender roles so well that I would never need nor allow a woman into our family life.
Women are attracted to me and I am often called “Unusual” by women.
Women are the first to comment on my female traits.
I am never so complimented, as I am when a woman notices my non-male attributes.
Even small things like I will stop and ask directions and I will NEVER leave a toilette seat up.



Two spirits?
Yup, I certainly think so.

So, make of this what you will.

I accept it within some limitations.

Jestina.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm an "old soul" myself Jestina. A lot of mediums and psychics recognize me immediately. Had you told me this a couple of years ago, I'd have said you were nuts. Now I've accepted it and it's just a matter of fact. I've finally begun to listen to myself and am in tune with my purpose. We are who we are for a reason. Once we realize this, we can begin to move forward and continue to mold our own paths. We need to use our abilities (energy balance is one) wisely however.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Sejd]

The "Old soul" concept is interesting also! A few years ago I went to a psychic because we (My SO and I) were moving to another state and so much change was going on. She looked at me and told me I was an old soul. She also told me that she could sense I had been a monk in a former life, the truth it that I spent quite a lot of time in a monastery when I was younger. Would be interesting to explore the connection between "Old soul" and "Two spirit people". Thanks for all the great contributions to this thread.
Huggs
Sejd

[Jestina]

I'm an "old soul" myself Jestina. A lot of mediums and psychics recognize me immediately. Had you told me this a couple of years ago, I'd have said you were nuts. Now I've accepted it and it's just a matter of fact. I've finally begun to listen to myself and am in tune with my purpose. We are who we are for a reason. Once we realize this, we can begin to move forward and continue to mold our own paths. We need to use our abilities (energy balance is one) wisely however.:happy: Ericka/Rich


Thanks for all the affirmations.
This was the most sensitive post I have ever offered on the forums.
It is also the most personal.
Sejd I have to say this has been a fascinating read.

I wish I had known all this stuff when I was much younger, for one thing I would still have the most marvelous collection of clothing. Instead of purging while in denial.

Ericka, the psychic angle is an interesting one also.
I will not get into it here, but the old soul part I already explained by quoting the Hindu Doctor.
I would not be surprised if all cross dressers and transgendered were "old souls".

I have found that as I have accepted myself fully I have become mnore natural and more comfortable in both roles.
I feel more like a man than I have ever felt in my life.
Yet I am soooo comfortable as a woman.

Oh yes and Ericka,
(I noted that you are in PA?
Had a wreck there too during a race weekend.
I love Pennsylvania hospitals!!)

This site has been amazing to me so far. WOW!.

Jestina.

[AmberTG]

Strange you should bring up this subject, my therapist is part native american and she holds the traditional beliefs about spirituality and culture. She's also a very observent person and, in my opinion a very good therapist. We've talked about this subject a number of times as to how it applys to TG people such as myself. It's more involved than a simple explaination, but "old soul" is one way to put it. The important thing to understand is that being TG is neither right or wrong, neither good or bad, it just is.

[Casey Morgan]

It spoke about the "Two spirit people" a term which was put on transexual men in the native tribes of the americans before the white Christian Europeans took over this continent.

Based on some reading I've done I'm not quite sure that's correct. It sounds like in the nations that had a role for two spirit people, transsexuals were actually accepted as either men or women irrespective of their genetalia. Thus a MTF TS would have simply been a woman while a FTM TS would have simply been a man. And isn't that exactly what transsexuals want today?

I'm not sure if gays and lesbians were technically two spirit people. After all, they're men and women who are attracted to members of the same sex. Did their sexual preference make them two spirit? I haven't really come across anything that speaks to that issue directly.

That said, I rather like the modern usage of two spirit. It brings together a number of people without the inherent divisions and petty squabblings of the GLBTIQQ (did I miss anybody?) community. And yes, the T* community is responsible for some of the squabbling.