Italtalian Hard Right MP protests at TG MP using Ladies Toilet

[Helen MC]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6094782.stm


Looks like they have a way to go yet in Italy's Parliament. :(

[Shelly Preston]

Getting into the parliment sounds easy compared to getting into the toilet :(

[JamieK]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6094782.stm


Looks like they have a way to go yet in Italy's Parliament. :(

Hi Helen,

Its sad, but true, the whole world has a long way to go before ALL TG's are accepted for who and what they are.
But, on the bright side, at least Italy does have a TG MP. Its a darn good start!

Best Wishes,
JamieK

[Katrina]

I'm impressed. It stinks that she is discriminated against there, but it amazing that she got in that position in the first place.

[MJ]

well i am glad i don't live in Italy. looks like they do have a long way to go

[Tamara Croft]

"It never entered my mind that I'd find him in there", she said. "It felt like sexual violence - I really felt ill." Wow, talk about a drama queen.....

I did think it was a bad thing, a TG male using a female toilet, but now, I don't really care ;) When we were out at a nightclub in Birmingham, there were CD's using the female toilet and I really couldn't have cared less :heehee:

[Billijo49504]

Well, I won't go to Italy if I have to pee...BJ

[Cristi]

Am I the only person who just doesn't see the sense of 'girls' and 'boy' toilets anyway? I mean, good God, aren't we all grownups? Don't we all use the same facilities in our houses? Eliminating waste is a basic bodily function. THERE IS NOTHING SEXUAL ABOUT IT. It makes about as much sense as having separate dining sections in a cafeteria. The whole thing is a holdover from a much more puritanical age, when indoor plumbing first came about.

I don't remember having two bathrooms in the house I grew up in, one for dad and me and one for my mom and sisters!

I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that I am a CDer that I just don't GET it. Especially the 'single' restrooms that are gender specific. Even if people wanted a bit more privacy in the stalls from *gasp* members of the opposite sex, just make the stalls a bit more private and let the rest of the facillity (sinks, etc) be common. If you must, put the men's urinals around a corner where the women won't 'have to' see them unless they go looking!

Maybe someday this will alll be a moot point. It just seems a non-issue and slightly... silly to me.

[Tanya83]

Am I the only person who just doesn't see the sense of 'girls' and 'boy' toilets anyway? I mean, good God, aren't we all grownups? Don't we all use the same facilities in our houses? Eliminating waste is a basic bodily function. THERE IS NOTHING SEXUAL ABOUT IT. It makes about as much sense as having separate dining sections in a cafeteria. The whole thing is a holdover from a much more puritanical age, when indoor plumbing first came about.

I don't remember having two bathrooms in the house I grew up in, one for dad and me and one for my mom and sisters!

I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that I am a CDer that I just don't GET it. Especially the 'single' restrooms that are gender specific. Even if people wanted a bit more privacy in the stalls from *gasp* members of the opposite sex, just make the stalls a bit more private and let the rest of the facillity (sinks, etc) be common. If you must, put the men's urinals around a corner where the women won't 'have to' see them unless they go looking!

Maybe someday this will alll be a moot point. It just seems a non-issue and slightly... silly to me.

I see your point but I dunno, I'd feel a little wierd if I was standing at the urinal and a women walked in, went into a stall, pulled down her pants...:OMG:

[Billijo49504]

How about if we just had stalls. Then we could pull up our skirts and stand in front of the fixture, to whizz, and the GG could have the privlidge of sitting for all of their needs. Does that satisfy your mind????BJ

[Helen MC]

Jacqueline-Charlotte Dufresnoy

Last Updated: 12:01am BST 28/10/2006

Jacqueline-Charlotte Dufresnoy, who died on October 9 aged 75, was born Jacques-Charles Dufresnoy, but became celebrated as the French transsexual singer, entertainer and Marilyn Monroe lookalike, Coccinelle.

Coccinelle was the first Frenchman to have a sex-change operation and went on to found an association to help others who felt they had been born with the wrong sexual identity. The British transsexual April Ashley was one of her protégées.

Jacques-Charles Dufresnoy was born in Paris on August 23 1931. His mother sold flowers in the Pigalle district and, as April Ashley recalled in her memoirs, Jacques-Charles was "raised among strumpets so that the ethics of their system came naturally to him". By his own account, he became aware that there was something amiss at the age of four; as soon as he was able, he dyed his brown hair platinum blond and took to wearing women's clothing. One of his favourite outfits, a red and black polka-dot dress, earned him the nickname Coccinelle (French for ladybird).
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Coccinelle made his debut in 1953 as a "showgirl" at Chez Madame Arthur, a Parisian cabaret specialising in drag acts. He later became a fixture at the more famous Carousel nightclub. April Ashley, who joined the Carousel troupe in 1956, recalled that Coccinelle (or "Coxy" as he was known) wore low-cut gowns which barely covered a pair of silicone-filled breasts which would occasionally sag and need to be "pumped up". He usually arrived on stage in one of a number of outrageous mink coats, all dyed different colours, and with scarlet lipstick. In the quest for his true self, Coccinelle had already had a "nose job". In 1958 he heard about Dr Georges Burou, a gynaecologist in Morocco who was known as a pioneer of vaginoplasty, or "gender reassignment surgery". He went to Casablanca and had the operation done.

On her return to France Coccinelle began to specialise in stage acts based on prominent sex-symbols of the day, including Marilyn Monroe and Brigitte Bardot. In 1959 she appeared in Europa di notte, a film directed by Alessandro Blasetti. She featured in the 1962 film Los Viciosos, and the next year appeared at the Paris Olympia music hall in her revue Cherchez la femme.

After her operation the French modified the law to enable the details on birth certificates to be amended following a change of sex, and she duly changed her name to Jacqueline-Charlotte — "née femme".

In 1960 she contracted the first of three marriages, to a sports journalist called François Bonnet. "Being a faithful child of the Church," April Ashley recalled, "she booked Notre Dame Cathedral for the ceremony (which she attended in an off-the-nipple gown). When the newlyweds appeared on the cathedral steps for photographs, the crowd gave them a terrific send-off, apart from those who pelted them with tomatoes."

Over the next 25 years Coccinelle toured the world, making a particular hit in South America and even performing in front of the Shah of Iran. For 10 years she appeared in cabaret in Germany. Her last public performance was in 1990.

She also worked extensively as an activist on behalf of transsexuals, founding the organisation Devenir Femme, and helping to establish a centre for research into gender identity. Her autobiography, Coccinelle by Coccinelle, was published in 1987.

At her funeral, held at the Eglise Saint-Roch de Paris, Father Philippe Desgens reminded mourners: "All the children of God have a place in the Church", and noted that "by her marriage in church after her operation, and during her whole life, Coccinelle showed her faith."

from "The Daily Telegraph"

[Helen MC]

I agree with the remarks about Toilets (Restrooms). We don't have a separate toilet at home and grow up using the same one as our parents and siblings of either sex. Also in France and some other countries they have unisex toilets but the men have the urinals behind a door or screen so they cannot be seen by the women and vice versa. I understand that in some parts of the USA there are no doors on Cubicles (Stalls) . This would not be tolerated here in the UK were there are doors with bolts on the toilets. There are some Nightclubs and Restaurants in the UK which have such unisex toilets but this is a slow progress. One school in Stockport in the North of England wanted to make their Toilets unisex but were overruled by the Education Committee.

I always use a cubicle with a door anyway and sit to pee like any woman does.

[Shelly Preston]

I see your point but I dunno, I'd feel a little wierd if I was standing at the urinal and a women walked in, went into a stall, pulled down her pants...:OMG:

I have been in this position where a woman (GG) walked into the toilet as at the time she needed somewhere for a quiet smoke. so she was not even in a stall.
(and yes I was at the urinal)
She was a dutch Truck driver
judging by her attidude I guess she was used to doing this.
No hassle no awkward moments just do what needs done and leave.

[Ellaine]

Italian MP. Elisabetta Gardini, may have ulterior motives for the "outrage" expressed, but it is no bad thing to have the discussion about transgender use of loos.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/30/wtran30.xml


We all have to pee, and I think the sooner some kind of official line is established, the better. Not surprisingly, the Italian Parliament seem to be going for a quick resoloution and providing a seperate toilet. But few buildings can so easily add an extra facility.

(USA) What's the state in your State?

What do you Brits see as a proper solution?
From what I gather this kind of "outrage" would occur daily, if British women chose to be so sensitive as Elisabetta Gardini. relying on tollerance is fine, but if more sexual predators started to take advantage, that tollerance could quickly expire.

One more point, if disabled facilities are to be the answer, is it right that a disabled person should be willing to share facilities with any and all genders, while the general population are segregated?
How do you please everybody?

[Kate Simmons]

You can't please everyone, Hon. Some people are going to be one-sided no matter what you do.Anyway, that's where we have a distinct advantage and what trees are for other than making leaves and oxygen.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Ellaine]

You can't please everyone, Hon. Some people are going to be one-sided no matter what you do. Anyway, that's where we have a distinct advantage and what trees are for other than making leaves and oxygen.:happy: Ericka/Rich



Hi Erika
If only trees came with cubicles and mirrors!

I think some kind of official policy is essential if we are to stop skulking around like criminals. Our so called "liberated" Sisters, who do get out and about still remain at the mercy of someones outrage, and so behave furtively or with extreme caution. Total confidence is no guarantee you wont find yourself in trouble. It won't do. More transgender people are likely over time to be appearing on the street, and complaints will arise. We shouldn't have to cross our legs and think of something else!

[Kate Simmons]

Unisex toilets are the answer. They have them at the club I go to and had them where I worked over 20 years ago. The door can be locked for privacy (as per law). I agree there a lot of narrow minded people in the world. Little do they know that some of us "perverts' have saved their collective a**es in wars and preserved their freedom to complain about piddly stuff like this. We would do it again if necessary despite their one-sided attitudes. Some people will just never "get it".:rolleyes: Ericka/Rich