TS or the Third Sex [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Katiegirl

11-09-2006, 06:30 PM

This is my first post for some time as I have been very down. Today I went to a councellor to talk over my problems and I asked her at the end of the session if she thought me a transexual.

Her answer was there is no such thing as a transexual, it was a name given to people in the 1930's. who beleived their mental state was of one sex and their body of the other sex, in order to seperate them from homosexuals. She agreed with the new idea that TS's should be called the 3rd sex as Ts's came in all shades, but even if they do transition, it was impossiable for them to experience everything their chosen sex experences, for example M to F having a baby.

I agree with this definition, but for those who are happy in their sex, those of us in the 3rd sex experience emotions that they just could not understand.

Do you think 3rd Sex is a better definition than Transexuals?

Wendi {LI NY}

11-09-2006, 08:00 PM

Well ,We are the third sex ,because no matter how hard we try we are not female or male .So the third sex makes sence to me ..I know this will set a few off the wall . I think she was so right .. But for labels I guess we are transsexals . Some people finish they surgury and they want to be male or female.. I guess it is up to the person . hugs,Wendi:2c:

Lauren B

11-09-2006, 10:26 PM

I think that description fits better than TS too, personally. The problem is, our society loves its dichotomies- black/white, paper/plastic, Democrat/Republican, gay/straight, Blood/Crip, so on and so forth.

No matter what we're called, we're going to have trouble fitting in as long as society won't surrender its black and white thinking. However, I think that for me, anyway, "third sex" probably helps me place myself in context better than TS.

CaptLex

11-09-2006, 10:45 PM

Oh good . . . more labels - as if people aren't confused enough.:rolleyes:

Do you think 3rd Sex is a better definition than Transexuals?

If it fits you, sure. If it doesn't, then no. Not everyone is one sex or the other, so that could work for some. But that's not the case with all . . . some are just fine identifying as transsexuals.

Katelyn

11-10-2006, 01:16 AM

:2c: Transsexual, Transgendered, Tranny, TG, TS, Crossdresser, Drag queen. I don't like any of these terms. I even think 3rd sex is a little off. I feel if you dress or present yourself as a woman, then you are female. If you present yourself as a Man, then you are male. I think of myself as ANDROGYNOUS (having both masculine and feminine characteristics). If I had to choose a label though, I would prefer 3rd sex. That's my :2c:

Katiegirl

11-10-2006, 06:35 PM

Thanks for the replies. on balance it would seem that most of you agree with the term 3rd sex.

:happy:

Shelly Preston

11-10-2006, 06:55 PM

Just something to be added to the debate
where do intersexed people fit into the mix
are they part of the third sex

pocoyo

11-10-2006, 08:05 PM

Hi. I'm new here and stuff & I don't know if its ok to join in (don't mean to intrude!) but I hope it's ok! Er so here goes... (just tell me to shut up if I'm annoying/unwanted) :D

So sorry if this doesn't seem to make a lot of sense 'cos I'm really tired.

I sort of think that if someone does entire srs and becomes the opposite sex then they are not a 3rd sex but have become the other gender. Unless they have made the decision not to feel/be fully male or female.

I also think many are androgynous or a 3rd sex and identify as that which is cool! So, I think there are many shades of grey in between. I don't think we should be too worried about pigeon holing. :)

Personally if I had srs I would just want to be a normal bloke. (Not a third sex)
Currently though I do sometimes think of myself as a sort of androgynous person and sometimes I see myself as a boy in a girl's body and sometimes just as a very confused girl lol. But that is just because I am in this in-between state. I would like to be one or the other.

People identifying as a 3rd gender is pretty cool though. It's kinda exciting that there are lots of different types of people/genders and sexualities out there!

I think that being a cross-dresser and being a transexual are 2 different things but that they can overlap.

But.. back to your counsellor's thinking that being a transexual doesn't exist... but but.but... hasn't it been proved that you can be born with a female brain in a male body and vice versa? So I think she could be wrong. It makes me feel worried that she said trans are a 3rd gender, incase it's like saying "you can never be a proper boy or a proper girl even if you want to be".
And anyway transexual just means someone that changes their sex or identifies as the opposite gender doesn't it?

(from dictionary.com: transexual
n 1: a person who has undergone a sex change operation [syn: transsexual] 2: a person whose sexual identification is entirely with the opposite sex [syn: transsexual] )

I'd say that exists!!

Remember that your counsellor isn't God (that's what My mum said to me when I once said "but my counsellor says this..." lol!) and it's just an opinion. Also, she's not a gender therapist (is she?), so she may not be very up to scratch on those issues. (also there's the possibility that she may feel uncomfortable with transexualness or whatever).Maybe she was just being considerate though because she thinks the term "transexual" can sound demeaning or something and is trying to be ultra PC.

Anyway, whatever, I would say that you are whatever you feel you are/want to be. :)

I am very sorry that you have been feeling down lately, poor thing. I hope you are feeling much better soon. :love:

Sorry that this post is rambling/hard to understand!! I'm nearly falling asleep on my keyboard lol. Hope u get the general idea of what I mean though.

oh PS... many girls who were born with a female body are unable to have babies too & won't be able to experience that. Lots of people born "normal" don't necessarily get to do all the normal things they are meant to be able to for their gender... just like there are all different shades of trangender etc, there are all different shades of just people !

Calliope

11-11-2006, 02:54 PM

Like I said in my TS thread, I think, in our current society, the word sex invites a titillation none of us really seek. 3rd makes sense in that it addresses our unique situation (choosing, or fighting for, a gender other than the one specified on the birth certificate). I'm sure a lot of postops would reject it nevertheless. I also hear a touch of the sci-fi in it which I do not like. There's got to be better.

Joy Carter

11-11-2006, 03:06 PM

No sex involved it's just a gender thing to me. I prefer the female gender and it just makes me happy to be as much as a part of it as I can. So throw a lable if you want at me I really don't care. I'm me and no one can define me. By the way I'm very hetero if anyone wonders.:D

suzy

11-11-2006, 03:08 PM

WHEW..... Not tonight hun, I've got a head-ache!:D

Kimberley

11-11-2006, 03:51 PM

Well Katiegirl, I take exception to your counsellor's interpretation and quite frankly if it were me, I would be vigorously challenging it. In my opinion, there are only 2 sexes but many genders due to a lack of clarity (definition) on the gender continuum. We all have elements of verious portions of this continuum in our personality and that does include the cisgendered community. The difference is that they dont recognize it and have no need to express these traits. Incidentally, this is also the approach my pdoc takes (and she has 30 years experience in dealing with the LGBT community.) I know I am not alone in this thinking, even on these forums.

Once again, we seem to let this word sex creep into what should be a gender based discussion. It is intrinsically wrong and absolutely misleading.

So, IMHO there are only 2 sexes and SRS can align sexual anatomy with gender but gender cannot be cured or resolved other than coming to terms with it in complete acceptance (that doesnt mean surrender) in understanding who and what we are.

For those of us that have travelled that path of acceptance, we know it is a painful awakening and recognition with a very satisfying view of everything at the end.

:hugs:
Kimberley

Nigella

11-11-2006, 04:07 PM

We all know that there are 2 sexes male and female but maybe the term gender would be better, and no matter how hard you try, you will never have a 3rd sex, maybe it is black and white, left and right, but that is the way of the world.

What bothers me about the term "3rd Sex" is the connotation of at least a 1st and 2nd sex, that then opens an age old argument about who is dominant among us, males or females.:naughty

Not an area I personally would want to enter :hiding:

CaptLex

11-11-2006, 05:37 PM

By the way I'm very hetero if anyone wonders.:D
Why would anybody wonder - or care? What's that got to do with being TS or third sex?

Katiegirl

11-11-2006, 06:18 PM

Katiegirl

11-11-2006, 06:26 PM

CaptLex- I disagree I listen to what people say and beleive me they do care.

:happy:

Sejd

11-11-2006, 06:45 PM

Third sex, or "two spirit" person, both are pretty good I think. True, we can never have a baby, at least not yet!!!! there is some part which just can't be fixed, and the fixing is not natural, because it envolve a lot of hormone therapi, surgical recorection etc. etc. Clinically, a lot is possible, but in the end, in my humble view, it is very much a spiritual step as well, maybe the most important step is what happens in our mind. I think this is a question which is always facinating. I regard myself as a person with the God given gift of the ability to embrace both worlds - the Two spirit soul. But I also like the term "Third sex" it's less religious and that's OK too.
huggs
Sejd:love:

pocoyo

11-11-2006, 07:00 PM

Thanks for your views, I can see there are more people now disagreeing, that is good.

I think that the word transexuals in the minds of of both Women and Men immediately makes them visualise Drag queens, homosexuals and similar things which is just not correct. They also don't equate F to M as transexuals (sorry pocoyo but that is often the case).

3rd Sex is to me a neutral term which would not bring up those images and help our group in the long run.

Intersex - good point one I don't know the answer too.

I understand your views, pocoyo and Kimberley, and what you are saying but I don't agree all of them. I feel that I'm a mental mixture of both male and female with the female side being much the stronger. My physical body says however I'm a male, that is where I differ from the "normal" male or female because both the mental and physical are in tune. Even though I would dearly love to have the physical body and live as a woman, because of up bringing and many other factors I could never be a complete woman.

The term Transexual is now taited, 3rd sex seems a good definition but if a better term is thought of then fine.

:happy:

hehe I don't know why you are apologising to me for about people not seeing some ftm's as transexuals? I think you're probably right there, that they often just think of drag queens or whatever.
Not sure you fully understood my post because I was saying I do realise that there are a lot of people who are a mix! I am so open-minded and just think people should be/feel however they want to. Hey everyone is a mix of male and female :) Which is awesome. Just to varying degrees.
btw i do totally see your point and reasoning behind the 3rd sex label. I just personally don't think that transexualism doesn't exist (in the way your counsellor apparently meant it...that you can't have a female brain in a male body and vice-versa).

But more importantly than all of that... are you feeling a bit happier now? The main reason I replied to this thread in the 1st place was because you were feeling down and I wanted to try and offer a reasurring point of view (albeit rather muddledly!) and also to say don't be sad because even many gg's don't get to experience everything they are meant to be able to as a gg! :)

hope you are smiling
pocoyo

GypsyKaren

11-11-2006, 07:43 PM

I don't look at someone as being male, female, trans, or whatever, just as a person.

Karen

CaptLex

11-11-2006, 10:33 PM

CaptLex- I disagree I listen to what people say and beleive me they do care.
I assume you're referring to my response to Joy Carter who felt the need to inform all that she's "very hetero". Well, why should we care if anybody cares? And if anybody really cares what I am . . . here you go: I'm very gay! :rolleyes:

I think that the word transexuals in the minds of of both Women and Men immediately makes them visualise Drag queens, homosexuals and similar things which is just not correct.
Yeah, but we can't keep changing our labels every time somebody gets the wrong idea about us. The answer is to educate the public - or at least educate the media so that the public can get the correct information. After all, not all transgendered individuals will consider themselves a "third sex".

They also don't equate F to M as transexuals (sorry pocoyo but that is often the case).
Well, that certainly used to be the case - at one time FtMs were thought to be a myth, especially since some "experts" thought transsexualism had to do with sexual activity (and didn't think women were interested in sex), but by now most have learned otherwise.

3rd Sex is to me a neutral term which would not bring up those images and help our group in the long run.
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but I can't agree. I'm all for those who consider themselves a third sex calling themselves that (or anything else they fancy), but I'm not happy with wanting to do away with the term "transsexual". I agree with Pocoyo - we certainly do exist.

Katelyn

11-12-2006, 10:04 PM

What bothers me about the term "3rd Sex" is the connotation of at least a 1st and 2nd sex, that then opens an age old argument about who is dominant among us, males or females.:naughty

The third sex would be the new power because we will have the strength of men, and affection of women...:devil:

Sally24

11-19-2006, 05:08 PM

The only problem I have with the 3rd sex idea is that it just continues the binary, black or white idea by adding just one more. Now there are only 3 sexes. The truth is that the problem is thinking in just numbers. That's like trying to describe a flower with just numbers. You lose the real depth of understading.

I prefer the Trangendered and Transexual terms as showing that there are levels and gradients, not just this or that. It's not black or white. It's white here, grey there, a little darker grey over here, now charcoal, now black. There are no hard lines to define us or separate us, just commonalities and differences.

As far as people having SRS and not being able to experience all that a GM or GF experience that's just technology. A generation ago, electrolysis and castration were about all a MtoF had to use. Now there is a huge amount that can be done to bring a persons physical gender in line with their mental state. In the future, who knows?

One quote I loved from a gender conference this fall was "It's not about the plumbing, but the electricity". The outside phyicallity is just what the public sees, it's not your personallity or you. Your desires, your loves, your hopes, and your behavior are truely you.

Sally

Calliope

11-20-2006, 02:03 AM

I'm very happy with my gender (woman), and I am now legally, anatomically, and hormonally female. I have absolutely no desire to be excluded from being treated as a woman by someone classifying me as a "3rd sex" or "3rd gender". That seems like the road to oppression to me.

Well, that confirms my view postops would reject '3rd sex.' Very well stated post above, Kehleyr. I can still appreciate that GGs (clumsy term I think) would want some distinguishing language - although if it's for the purpose of oppressing anyone, then bummer.

CaptLex

11-20-2006, 10:35 AM

I can still appreciate that GGs (clumsy term I think) would want some distinguishing language - although if it's for the purpose of oppressing anyone, then bummer.
I can't imagine why anyone would need to make the distinction - other than for oppressive purposes. :straightface:

Vaerise

11-28-2006, 06:05 AM

I can't imagine why anyone would need to make the distinction - other than for oppressive purposes. :straightface:

Some of us dont fit in either male or female. While we would like to be presented as female, we arent really sure if we are really "it". As most transwomen are pretty sure from the off-set that you are either female or your not. I prefer to use the term adrogynous over 3rd sex. Since we are either born as male or female, its just how we choose to identify ourselves.

CaptLex

11-28-2006, 10:07 AM

Some of us dont fit in either male or female. While we would like to be presented as female, we arent really sure if we are really "it". As most transwomen are pretty sure from the off-set that you are either female or your not. I prefer to use the term adrogynous over 3rd sex. Since we are either born as male or female, its just how we choose to identify ourselves.
I don't have a problem with that, and that's not what I was referring to. I was answering a post about distinguishing between bio-females and postop transwomen. I don't understand why (in that case) there needs to be a distinction. They're both women as far as I'm concerned.

Marla S

11-28-2006, 01:05 PM

I don't like the 3rd-sex idea, 'cause it provides nothing new and is misleading.

1.) The term 'sex' is misleading in general, and if I would have to decide something I would ban it from discussions like this anyway, 'cause ...

2.) ... nobody is able to change her/his sex (you can give up the one you were born with, but you can't get the other).

3.) From a biological point of view there are exactly two sexes with well defined tasks for reproduction. This won't change in the near future. A 3rd-sex doesn't make any sense here.
(There are some animals that are able to switch between the sexes, but at a given time they are always one pole of the binary system, but never a 3rd-sex).

4.) We don't seek for becoming a 3rd-sex.
Some try to push/blur the borders for the inborn sex; aka gender role. Others try to adapt as much as possible to the oppsite sex (gener role).
But everybody has to decide if she/he wants to cross the line of the binary system or not.

5.) A CD or TS talking about the disliking the binary sex-system ( implementing a ternary or multinary one) is a contradiction in itself.

If there has a special term to be used for some stage inbetween, it should be gender-blender. Because this is what we do and what we are able to achieve. We blend skills, privileges and attributes of the opposite gender with our inborn one to various extends, continiously or periodically.
This might reach from wearing fem undies sometimes to medically possible bodymodifications. Somewhere inbetween is the line to cross (or not) to fit in the binary gender-system.

Marcie Sexton

11-28-2006, 01:40 PM

How 'bout this, bi-gendered...Perhaps we are all man and woman, its just some of us are more of one than the other...I often wonder if, perhaps I am more woman, than man...When I'm dressed I feel so much more at ease with myself and the world around me...As a matter of fact, I find dressing as a man, especially for work, is boring, and a necessary evil of the job...I just wonder if I would feel that way if I could dress at work as I do at home and feel just at ease...

pocoyo

11-30-2006, 06:13 AM

Very well said Kehleyr (in all of your 3 posts on this thread).
Some of what you said is exactly what I meant in my post. Thank goodness someone said it in a way that was articulate and easy to understand rather than my incoherent & clumsy ramblings lol!
I agree. You are a woman.

On a side note: "genital surgical status is pretty meaningless for men" aargh not for me! I'd love a penis. (Perhaps you meant this in a different way than I interpreted it however, I can be a bit slow sometimes!) We all do have the same material down there anyway, it's just a matter of how it is arranged. Hey even some people that were born male need surgery for help with that area! (Some "natural" guys have a micropenis -which ftms can achieve without surgery anyway, some guys have accidents & need surgery etc etc).
Er anyway the main point was the 1st paragraph, this one is of less importance so I will stop rambling now.

CaptLex

11-30-2006, 09:58 AM

On a side note: "genital surgical status is pretty meaningless for men" aargh not for me! I'd love a penis. (Perhaps you meant this in a different way than I interpreted it however, I can be a bit slow sometimes!) We all do have the same material down there anyway, it's just a matter of how it is arranged. Hey even some people that were born male need surgery for help with that area! (Some "natural" guys have a micropenis -which ftms can achieve without surgery anyway, some guys have accidents & need surgery etc etc).

Pssst . . . Pocoyo . . . why are you whispering? Maybe the girls aren't really interested in what we think of penises (if they can't relate), but feel free to shout it if you want. I know some of the guys wouldn't mind. Everything you said was right on, and unless we tell people they won't get it. It's not that penises aren't important to us, but medical science hasn't made much progress in our direction, so we have to take what we can get - and pray that things improve very soon. :Pray:

Marla S

11-30-2006, 10:34 AM

I've seen variations on this statement made on several occasions on this forum. It is generally presented as a self evident fact.

Which is interesting to me, because depending on how you choose to define "sex", the truth of this statement is highly debatable. It certainly isn't self evident.
Let me try to explain what I mean.

My defintion of sex is the biological and not a social one.
From this point of view the statement "Nobody (human) is able to change the sex" is a self evident fact.

I insist in this defintion because the English language, in contrast to German, allows to differentiate the biological sex and the social gender.
A chance that could help to simplify the discussion about TG. This is not really utilized, but due to loose, sometimes arbitrary, defintions it seems to produce more confusion than necessary.

(With the biological definition the term 3rd-sex is completely senseless, a all.)

From a biological point of view, the biological sense of the sexes is reproduction.
Hence, everything that is linked to reproduction in principle could be excluded from the discussions.
Starting from "I want to be pregnant" (a wishes of the same quality like "I want to become a millionaire.", but less likely to happen) to jumping on every little piece of scientific research that revealed some actual sex change in worms or snails and trying to link this to the human situation (TG-community should just skip this).

You might argue that not every woman or man is able to reproduce, due to some medical problems, but they are still representatives of their sexes.
Though it may sound harsh, that is not exactly true, because they are indeed no real males or females anymore (and most will tell you that they feel this way), but - and now comes the social aspect into play - they are (or can be) still men or women, aka representatives of their gender.

And most of them have a field of experiences that defines thier identity to a good part, but which is excluded for TG-folks too.
This field of experiences is directly linked to the biological sexes: The conviction of being able to father or to give birth. Something that little boys and girls get teached very early and which has to have a deep impact on their identity.
This ability might be proven wrong someday and causes identiy-problems than, but neverheless they grew up with this conviction (something no hormone or SRS is able to produce).

So what's left for the TG-folks ?
It is the major part of social aspect or the social areas of the genders (a lot of them historically grown and only loosely linked to biological sex).
Besides self-acceptance, with more and more adaption to the opposite gender we are able to enlarge the group of people that accept us as a representative of the opposite gender.
A CD might be accepted by some because he/she signalizes with the outfit the desired role, though the inborn sex might still be clearly visible.

With hormones the group is enlarged because you not only adapt the clothes but also the secondary sexual characteristics.

A further enlargement of the group is achieved by SRS because you now have the complete set of outer sexual characteristics.

But than it stops.

If it comes to reproduction you might not be accepted as a representative of your gender anymore.

Long post, short sense.
Skip the term sex (or gender if the term sex is used in a social sense too.)

If one wants to talk about a 3rd-gender (with a defined social role) it might be interesting to read about eunuchs. That would be a 3rd-gender for me, but I don't think this isn't what we seek for.

Joy Carter

11-30-2006, 12:37 PM

Why would anybody wonder - or care? What's that got to do with being TS or third sex?

Sorry If my being HS has upset anyone. But for those seeking tolerance it

shouldn't matter what anyone say's here. I just pick and choose what feels

right to me. I don't make judgment as to their lifestyle or beliefs. But I'm

not shy about making my own known. So come on CaptLex a big :hugs: for

ya babes.

CaptLex

11-30-2006, 01:21 PM

Sorry If my being HS has upset anyone.
I don't have a problem with you being straight (I assume that's what you mean by HS - or is it a "hot sister"? :heehee:). I only have a problem when people make it a point to bring it up when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, that is, being trans - it's two separate things. :Peace:

Calliope

11-30-2006, 01:45 PM

But a little known secret about the vast majority of post-op trans women is that we are mostly gender conformists.

And considering the long, difficult process of GRS etc., that's understandable. I respect that entirely.

Those of us unable to reach the 'conclusion' (and $ is an overarching issue) will lack the confidence to shout 'I am woman, hear me roar' and, so, dwell endlessly over self-identifying terms.

Personally, I embrace my 'position' as a TG - somewhere in between - although my tips to the counterhelp at Starbucks do reflect whether I'm called mam or sir.

Bethanygirl

11-30-2006, 02:58 PM

I live as a woman, I have male equipment between my legs, what am I? I don't care! Why do you want to label yourself? Aren't there plenty of other people out there that will assign their own labels without you having to too? You are you, if you are convinced you would be happier living as a male and dressing occassionally as a female, then THAT is you. If you would be happier living as a female with male equipment between your legs, then THAT is you. If you are convinced that you would only be happy if you had a complete SRS, then THAT is you! Who needs labels? +?

pocoyo

11-30-2006, 03:49 PM

My apologies Pocoyo for my poor wording.

I didn't mean to imply that acquiring genitals congruent with your gender is unimportant to men. I'm sure that it's just as important. Actually, given the importance many men place on that body part, it wouldn't surprise me if it was more important to men.

Hehehe, oh yes. (Well to me at least).

With men, this distinction is less useful. There are far more non-op men (speaking solely of genital surgery, I'm aware that many men get breast surgery)

Aaah I see what you meant now! Thanks for taking the time to explain. aww :happy:

I don't think I've ever met (online or in real life) a fully post-op trans man - although I don't make a habit of asking men what they have in their pants,

I have, 2 (via e-mail), and I was so happy for them and they were so relaxed and happy and complete.

(I'm not really counting a clitoral release as being equivalent to full GRS, although maybe that's unfair of me, and maybe men disagree.)
Well er (oh God why am I the one having to talk about this, I'm so shy aaargh). Yeah I'll just mumble a few things and you'll get the drift. Er... micropenis, testosterone... growth...puberty. Plus, that sensate tissue is all homologous anyway and even appears as a small penis even on a gg (er which I'm sure u know anyway, I was just pointing it out, excuse the pun). Of course it's smaller and urethra is in diff place but, smaller-wise, as I mentioned before even genetic men are born with micropenises sometimes, and well, the plumbing is slightly different so needs overcoming that's all. So I think perhaps some transmen would disagree, myself I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it but I know exactly what you mean. I personally wouldn't want a micropenis. Would be phalloplasty for me. I just KNOW I've got a big one hahaha.

I've seen Meltzer's presentation on FtM surgery, and while the variety of options is quite interesting, none of them seem quite satisfactory. AFAICT, there is no procedure that produces realistic appearance, good size, good sensitivity, and correctly placed plumbing (and the procedures that produce good size generally leave horrible scars elsewhere on the body, which I suppose may upset guys less than me, but still).

Yeah it's pretty annoying (well, heart-wrenching) that there isn't a perfect one :( (yet, yet!) but there is a FTM surgery site I go on where post-op guys show their pictures and some of them are pretty amazing actually, and do have correct plumbing (urinating-wise) and even sensitivity, not enough sensitivity or not quite right though I bet. The sizes are pretty good on most of them I've seen apart from one which was too small for my liking but it looked good. Some are pretty crap though and yes, definitely not "quite satisfactory" Particularly with the whole needing help with an erection thing (BAH BAH BAH BAH) but of course, many genetic men need help with that too, so there's a sort of encouraging thought, as is the thought that some genetic men/boys also have problems like having an accident which damages their equipment and then they need similar surgery. (Lol obviously it's not nice that they have accidents and need surgery! But I meant that well, they are still "proper men" and they have similar surgery).
They guys on the site do all seem to report that they are very happy with their new equipment.

Scars wouldn't bother me. They can heal or be covered or tattoed on or just generally look rough, piratey and cool lol! Dunno how others feel about scars.

I hope my discussing this hasn't upset anyone.

Not me. (Well, the only upsetting bit was the embarrasment part haha!)

Very sorry if this post is hard to follow or doesn't make much sense. I've had a trying day and I'm very tired.

Cheers

Joy Carter

11-30-2006, 04:56 PM

I don't have a problem with you being straight (I assume that's what you mean by HS - or is it a "hot sister"? :heehee:). I only have a problem when people make it a point to bring it up when it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, that is, being trans - it's two separate things. :Peace:

Hmmmm. Maybe the third sex thing threw me +? +? +?

CaptLex

11-30-2006, 05:45 PM

I hope my discussing this hasn't upset anyone.
Are you kidding? I'm glad somebody actually wants to talk about it here. :cheer:

DayTripper . . . that's probably why I haven't tipped at Starbucks yet - I'm still waiting for a "sir" . . . and I'm tired of correcting them. :rolleyes:

~Dee~

11-30-2006, 09:57 PM

as to the original question ..
nope ... i dont think that its a better term.
the last thing we need is another term to ad to the ever growing list.

as it stands, transsexual isnt a diagnosis.. its a term, a label.
thats the only thing that i find is abused over this word... but not to a sore point.
i am a transexual .. and im proud of that fact.
i know that people can react differently depending on what you tell them, but it doesnt change the fact that that is what i feel i am. Any other ideas that spring up at the mentioning of this term is better left to educating the person who has those thoughts ... not trying to run from the ideas they have.

example:
where i live is near a suburb that used to be a pretty rough area (we'll call it 'thisplace').. and to distance themselves from the stigma that went along with telling someone that you lived in "thisplace" .. they kept changing the names of the newer areas where they put up housing.

its still the same area ... its still in the same city ... its just that they managed to change the name to make it seem like a better place.
and what happens now?

well, not only do you have a huge amount of differently named suburbs all around this area (so much that people sometimes cant figure out which suburb they actually live in cause they cross a few different names)

but also, you go up and say to someone - "oh, i live in 'thatplace', its really nice"
and the person looks puzzled and says
"oh really, so where is that?"
and you are forced to say "oh ... its umm ... near 'thisplace'"

and there you go .. stigma returns.

whereas, if you can say from the start that you live near 'thisplace' and that its a lot better than it used to be ... they are interested to know more..
you immediately start to change that persons learnt ideas about that old suburb... and the next time someone says they come from there, they will remember that its not such a bad place anymore.

to me this is a long drawn out and tedious example of whats happening with all these terms being invented ... people are trying to flee from the term transexual because of what people think it means and/or implies..

well ... ill take the term transexual anyday ... i will just make sure that they know what it really means ..
to me, that should be the goal... otherwise all you do is delay the problems .. if they suddenly develop and new and improved name for transexuals everywhere ... how long do you think it will take before the general public hears it and figures out that its just another word for transexual?
and you are left with that 'stigma' again

as for the other disturbing things that are being said in regards to reproduction .. im just going to keep away from that today ... im having a bad day as it is .. and i hope that ive already answered the real question in regards to this thread.
phew.

Felicia Conti

11-30-2006, 11:45 PM

Hi Katie,

I think it is very disrespectful and bordering on unprofessional, for a councellor to impose her values and beliefs on a client. Councellors are expected to put their biases aside and view the the client's world from the client's vantage point. I don't think this councellor took the time to do that before arriving at and imposing her own opinion. But that's just my take on it from only knowing a little about the exchange between the two of you. Take care.

Felicia

Marla S

12-06-2006, 03:36 PM

@Kehleyr
You tried to show my inconsistency. I might argue inconsistent and for sure I am hairsplitting, but not in the way you mentioned it.

What I tried to higlight is the somewhat arbitrary usage of the terms gender and sex, which produces more confusion IMO than it helps to clarify.

What's wrong with adapting to a gender, but not being able to change the sex.
Is sex better than gender ?

Not to me (and I'm a biology major).

SEX: Sum of features by which a member of a plant or animal species can be placed into one of two complementary reproductive groups, male or female.

In both plants and animals, sex is determined by the reproductive cells (gametes) produced by the organism. The male produces sperm cells, and the female produces egg cells. Males and females may or may not have apparent structural differences, but they always have functional, hormonal, and chromosomal differences. Patterns of behaviour, sometimes elaborate, may also distinguish the sexes in some species.

As I previously posted, I reject the insistence that reproduction must be possible to change sexes. Many natal females cannot successfully bear a child, and many natal males cannot successfully sire one. This definition would unfairly exclude these people as not being truly a member of their phenotypical sex.
'Unfair' is an emotional appraisal but not a biological term.

Not by your definition...
Read again. That's why I wrote 'You might argue' (and you did)

You must hang with a different crowd of people than me, because my impression is that the prevalent attitude is that most people are "real" males and females.
10 s Goolge search.

"The week before my sterilization I was very nervous, irritiable, and jumpy. I'd yell at my husband. I tried to pull out of myself all my fears about having an operation: I would die, there'd be a mistake, I'd be out of control, I'd get the wrong anesthetic; and fears about this particular operation: My husband would think that I wasn't a real woman anymore, he'd leave me for a fertile woman, I'd get all dried up and wrinkled. I felt angry at my husband for not wanting to deal with his feelings of loss of manhood by having a vasectomy (though that was a little irrational on my part, for his vasectomy couldn't give me my sexual freedom if I wanted to make love with another man.) Now, almost two years later, I am glad I made the choice I did. I feel much freer when I make love..."
http://www.io.com/~wwwomen/contraception/sterile.html

So can trans men and women.
Didn't say anything different.

You've provided no biological distinction (and I thought you said we need to distinguish between sex and gender).
Read above.

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with biological sex.
You are right, it touches in social and cultural aspects too, but they wouldn't be there without the sexes .

From my perspective, the medical community has been gradually reaching a consensus that sex is best determined by morphotype. Genotype does not work because so many women have genetic abnormalities. Reproductive capability quite clearly does not work.
This is exactly what I mean. Because we are humans and it is 'unfair' to 'exclude' someone from a quite clear definition, we find another one, that might be a bit confusing but still excludes people, but we are pc.
This definition might have to be expanded by "sex by brain-set" to include TG-folks too, because we belong to the opposite gender (more or less) long before the morphotype matches by adaption (reassignment).

For now, I'll leave determination of my sex mostly up to the relevant experts and authorities. All of my doctors list my sex as female.
I just posted my opinion, but not even the experts call it sex-change. They call it sex-reassignment or assigned sex.

Anyway, I think we do agree that a category '3rd-sex' isn't appropriate. That was the question.