why are we a threat?

[bi_weird]

So this is a question for those of you who've been playing this game for a while. What are your thoughts on why we're such a threat to the rest of the world?
I'm not making drastic changes to my life to explore this. I'm slowly incorporating boyish clothes more consistantly into my wardrobe. I'm wearing sports bras to minimize my chest. I'm contemplating chopping off my hair. Some people don't seem to notice these changes; some people are cool with it. Then there's a special class of people that seems insulted by my lack of interest in girly clothes. One of my housemates exemplifies this. Whenever I look boyish she points it out with a frown. On the other hand, if I dress girly, she points it out and asks why I don't dress like that all the time. We've had a couple of conversations where it's become very obvious that she thinks I'm stupid and very strange for dressing the way to do...and that somehow these changes are a threat to her. It's like she can't deal with what I'm wearing, and that I'm insulting her with what I wear. If she were more direct (she's probably the least confrontational person I've ever met) I'm sure she'd've told me straight up to stop dressing this way because she can't deal with it.
I don't understand this. I figured people would think I'm weird or whatnot, but I didn't expect this feeling that other people feel threatened by my clothing. Why do they find it scary that I'm dressing away from the norm?

[CaptLex]

Hi, Bi! Good question. There could be several reasons, or a combination of them:

Some people fear what they don't understand, and since we ourselves don't always understand why we do it, we can't really expect them to either. Some people would rather deal with things being black and/or white, but they get confused with anything in between. They think they know the way of the world, and then we come along with our spectrum of colors, and blow that theory out of the water. :eek:

In some cases, it's also homophobia. MtFs are frequently seen as gay men and FtMs as lesbians, and despite many advances, homophobia is still alive and well in the 21st century. :thumbsdn:

You mentioned your housemate's problem with it. I don't like to generalize, but it has been my experience that girlier girls have the biggest problem with our preferred mode of dressing. I've never asked any of them why, but I imagine that they think all females should look a certain way, and that we are rejecting their representation of what a female should look like and be like.

I think the best way to smooth over these misunderstandings is to talk about them, but that's easier said than done. We don't like to disclose because people won't understand it, and people don't understand it because they don't really want to know - a real Catch-22. I hope your housemate comes around eventually and won't see your gender expression as a rejection of her or her values.

[myMichelle]

Wow...CaptLex really just hit the nail on the head! I agree wholeheartedly with every singe word of his post! As an MTF crossdresser, I can tell you from my own experience(s) that people fear what they do not understand. And, I've found that the best way for me to combat this cycle of fear is through open and honest communication...People aren't always going to really understand where you're coming from, but they'll at least know that they needn't fear you.

Good luck on your journey,
Michelle

[Theresa(TGirl)]

In my opinion, I think the reason why people don't accept crossdressers and transgedered people is that people are "afraid of change" and "afraid of the uncomfortable and different".

So MTF and FTM crossdressers are the "different" and thus, people are afraid of us. (hey, that rhymed somewhat, hmm.)

[janedoe311]

Look at the bible.

I am not religious so I do not have those biases.

So look at your Drivers license and Passport, and SS card, job applications etc.

They need Gender id, just like so called "race"

Governments need to label people.

Some people are not either male or female and they have real problems with ID's. They have to got to courts to get their ids made.

Most people are used to this so anyone outside of this is an outcast at best.

Not going to change anytime soon, I suspect it will get worse.

We are all ready just a number to the governments and they want national IDs.

Soon there will be World ID's, all of them will have Gender on them either male or female.

Healthy people have a female and a male side but the society makes us surpress the side that does not go with our body gender.

Would be nice if you can get in a box in the morning and decide what gender you will be that day and no one will bat any eye at the change!

[Kimberley]

I think a lot of valid things have been said here but let me toss this in.

Cisgendered people have no frame of reference for transgendered. For that matter even within the gay and lesbian community we are a misunderstood group. It makes people uncomfortable. Quite simply, they dont understand anymore than they understand sexual issues. They may accept us or more likely not, but I believe it is their discomfort that causes the negative reactions.

This of course ignores any predisposition they harbour from religious or political beliefs. These cannot be changed any more than we can change. The tolerance level may change but the basic beliefs will not.

So, I guess the point I am illustrating is that the reactions of others are a conditioned response as the result of any number of influences.

In the end, it is our responses to this that sets the stage for further events.

Bi, you will do just fine. My only suggestion is to wait until you are sure of yourself before jumping over the fence. Sometimes it can happen quickly, other times it may take decades to figure it out. Regardless, you will know for yourself and once you have come to terms with this self acceptance thing, you will be just fine because you wont care what others think, nor will you find yourself justifying who you are to anyone.

In the meantime :hugs: and keep smilin. You have many friends here.

Kimberley.

[Scotty]

Because since the dawn of time men controlled the world, Islam, Christianity - religions alike all have one thing in common - men are in control.

Men fear this change, men already dislike the rigor that feminist types have when they want something - (I'm not saying this is you, it's an example)
It's just something that will take time to change.


Only time will change it, and more of you coming out. Men have been coming out for years, only a handful of women in history have dressed up as men to do something heroic etc.

In time this will all change :)

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

I don't like to generalize, but it has been my experience that girlier girls have the biggest problem with our preferred mode of dressing. I've never asked any of them why, but I imagine that they think all females should look a certain way, and that we are rejecting their representation of what a female should look like and be like.

Could also be you're touching an nerve about their own unconscious ambivalence about being a girlie girl.

[Poltergeist]

I'm sure there are different reasons for different people. One girl I once knew was honest enough to explain to me why it bothered her - she was a very feminine woman, but definitely strong enough to not let any guys tell her what to do. She was very proud of being a "strong woman", as she put it, and seeing me act and dress completely like a guy made her feel like I was saying that what she was doing wasn't good enough. I had to try to explain to her that I am not trying to be a strong woman, I'm just trying to be the guy I thought I should have been (and even a girly one!). But it made me think that maybe that's a problem for a lot of the girls that don't like us - that they think we're saying they have to be like men to be "good enough".

My own mom once said that I was an insult to every woman who had ever fought for woman's rights, and I guess that was the same way of looking at it.

[Lisa Golightly]

'Clever things make people feel stupid, and unexpected things make them feel scared.' (Fry in Futurama).

[Kate Simmons]

I'd say that rather than a threat, we are a promise. Count on it!:happy: Ericka

[CaptLex]

Could also be you're touching an nerve about their own unconscious ambivalence about being a girlie girl.
Hmmm . . . good point, Marlena. I never thought about that, but I see how it can be possible - definitely takes them out of their comfort zone, if that's the case.

Poltergeist, that's also an excellent point. I think both girly women and butch women have made that argument against us. Again, I see it as them rejecting us because they feel we're rejecting their values. Everyone should be free to be how they want to be and accept that others deserve the same freedom. We don't all have to be the same to get along.

[Bridget]

Part of my sociological approach includes not just homophobia, but part of it, at least for FtMs, (but also MtF, but in a different way) is the subtle inclusion of certain elements of more radical feminism into the mainstream. Within the domain of race, Nationalistic elements despise assimilation into the mainstream, proposing that rejection of the mainstream culture is part of the resistance. Likewise, in feminism, there is some element of the same; the concept of what they percieve as assimilation into masculinity, seems like a treasonous action, instead of working to change society, they percieve that you are accepting the model of man dominant, female submissive power model.

Within certain literature within the homosexual community, this perspective is made more obvious at times, with certain papers pointing to the opinion, that we're either all gay, but acquiescing to the heterosexual model, rather than dealing with our homosexuality, or elsewise, a subversive element in their midst, trying to convert them to a heterosexual lifestyle.

In essence, they believe that since we are blurring the defined group barriers, we are weakening their strength as a rigidly defined and solid group. And in that sense, we are viewed as a threat to the group identity.

[Felix]

Great post hun!! Anybody who is different in my opinion is always going to be seen as some kind of threat, silly as it may seem. society just couldn't cope without labels and as hard as I hate them I still use them and try to define myself. I'd love to say I am who I am with all conviction but that would be to easy cos society likes to make everything complicated. Felix xx :Angry3:

[JenniferMint]

My own mom once said that I was an insult to every woman who had ever fought for woman's rights

A few years back, my mom said I was an insult to men who had erectile dysfunction. (This was when she caught me taking estrogen pills because I hated my male sexual characteristics.)

I just told her that I didn't care about those men.

[Calliope]

There's a philosopher I really dislike, but he had one good one-liner, something to the effect of: people exact a heavy penalty on those who make them have to change their mind. The housemate under discussion sounds like one big downer. On the topic of the 'woman's lib' argument, that's real food for thought but I'll add my opinion that even the best ideologies can be used for reactionary purposes by the clever & dishonest. Metanarratives are boxes.

[Julie York]

I think it is a lot more simple than you may think. By "their" standards your behaviour is insane and unless you are a mental health specialist or educated on the subject, seeing someone act insane IS scary.

If your best friend, or Mother or whatever, started to count trees out loud every time they passed some, it would make you feel uncomfortable and alarmed and you'd suggest they stop doing it...maybe obliquely and helpfully, but you'd show disapproval.

It's exactly the same reastion when someone acts insane by dressing opposite to their born gender. It is scary and incomprehensible to most folk so it generates fear. And then anger for making them feel that way.



BTW I want to give a "Brilliant Post" medal to CaptLex.

(Anyone know what CaptLex looks like?)

[Sierra Evon]

True I think that being a CD , TS, people just dont want to understand it
or why, I get a wide range of mixed reaction daily , but I also think that
deep down alot of guy's secretly want me , ( us), the CDer, or TS, :2c:

[CaptLex]

BTW I want to give a "Brilliant Post" medal to CaptLex. (Anyone know what CaptLex looks like?)
Just look for the guy with the :star: (that Krazy Kat pinned on me yesterday). :heehee:

I love your answer too, Julie. They think we're nuts, and crazy people are scary. I'll buy that - pure and simple. :thumbsup:

[tekla west]

I'm down with Lisa quoting Fry. That works. Anything that might make the odd person think is just too much.

[Teresa Amina]

Because since the dawn of time men controlled the world

Not quite! Actually Patriarchy is a relative latecomer to the world, not really getting a deathgrip on society till the Bronze Age. Previously Matriarchal based societies were the norm. And, really, don't you think that those who control those men (usually women) are really in control?:D

[Joy Carter]

Not quite! Actually Patriarchy is a relative latecomer to the world, not really getting a deathgrip on society till the Bronze Age. Previously Matriarchal based societies were the norm. And, really, don't you think that those who control those men (usually women) are really in control?:D

Example; my wife ! :o

[Xaff]

I'm sure she'd've told me straight up to stop dressing this way because she can't deal with it.
I don't understand this. I figured people would think I'm weird or whatnot, but I didn't expect this feeling that other people feel threatened by my clothing. Why do they find it scary that I'm dressing away from the norm?

I think it also have to do with: woman feel atrackted to men. And men to woman.

Maybe it is then, if you're a woman and you dress like a men. And behave like one, then you are more closely to the men than the woman. (sexuality perspective) So maybe those woman see you as a another woman who fits more with the men around here. And in nature, everyone wants to find a mate. Another woman is a treat. Espacialy if she fits much more by the male.

[CaptLex]

I think it also have to do with: woman feel atrackted to men. And men to woman.

Maybe it is then, if you're a woman and you dress like a men. And behave like one, then you are more closely to the men than the woman. (sexuality perspective) So maybe those woman see you as a another woman who fits more with the men around here. And in nature, everyone wants to find a mate. Another woman is a treat. Espacialy if she fits much more by the male.
That's a good point, Morgan, I hadn't thought about that. Some transguys had told me that when they transitioned they lost female friends because some of them became attracted to the guy they became. Jeez, I hope my friends know better. :p

[mistunderstood]

I think we are a threat because we are going against what 2/3 of the population wants to be. Like most women want and like being women, men who like to dress want to be women too. That is for us FTM's. As for men who want to be women or female like it is a threat to the male physic. Men are suppost be strong,tuff, and never suppost to feel anything. This seems to scare men when they can feel things like women do. I am a FTM and I have to addmit it scares me when I have to feel things. So it has to be like that for men. If you feel you hurt and that is not macho.

[janedoe311]

Not quite! Actually Patriarchy is a relative latecomer to the world, not really getting a deathgrip on society till the Bronze Age. Previously Matriarchal based societies were the norm. And, really, don't you think that those who control those men (usually women) are really in control?:D


On Ronald Reagans mouth controled by his wife.

[Jennaie]

Could also be you're touching an nerve about their own unconscious ambivalence about being a girlie girl.

I agree completely. I think it is so much eaiser for person too find fault with others than it is to actually look inside and acknowlege that they are individuals as well.

[ubokvt]

There's a philosopher I really dislike, but he had one good one-liner, something to the effect of: people exact a heavy penalty on those who make them have to change their mind.
I Think Daytripper had it right. I've always been a little different ignoring the rules, being myself and been beaten soundly for it. Don Miguel Ruiz, in his book the Four Agrements" makes the point we all grow up making known and unknown agreetments with society on how we will live in that society. We may not like those agreements but we conform to live in a safe known society. Many of us know its not us and we do it anyways with some resentment. And then there are those, like yourself, that decide to live their lives differently and we really resnt them because they are living proof we could do it differntly, if we were stronger, if were wern't afraid, if we valued ourselve more. if we would really just look at ourselves and our lives consiously rather than just living the way we are told. You bring everything I'm doing into doubt and I don't want to face that so I will do anything to get you to conform so I don't have to face myself.

[Bridget]

Not quite! Actually Patriarchy is a relative latecomer to the world, not really getting a deathgrip on society till the Bronze Age. Previously Matriarchal based societies were the norm. And, really, don't you think that those who control those men (usually women) are really in control?:D

I think Jared Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel" correlated a shift from fertility gods and farming to male gods and urban living, with the fall of matriarchy and the rise of patriarchy.

[Sheila]

I may be way of base here but I don't think that they see it as a threat to gender, but more that anybody doing something outside the "norm" actually causes each of us to look deep within ourselves and it may be that we do not like what we see ---------- we believe ourselves to be tolerant caring human beings but being faced with it (whatever it is) on a daily basis, makes some of us realise how intolerant we really are deep down -------- does that make any sort of weird sense ------ and so we don't feel good about ourselves and ergo the blame for that has to go to somebody else !!!!!!!!!

Jess

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

everybody is scarred of something in their lifes. wherever it be spiders, heights, confind spaces etc, people will always have fears. but.... c/d, m/f f/m when u try and explain it, to someone who see's it as werid, they just dont want to know. because they are SCARRED ! :(
i know someone who is f/m, ( not personaly, or to be friends with ), but she brought her daughter to same nursery as my child. there were a couple of women talking, and someone else pointed out that she was a "lesbian". i was ashamed and embarrassed by their next action. they told their children to not stand near her, or talk to her. it was "disgusting" in their words. !! :Angry3:
next day i heard that one of them had approached this women who was f/m and said sorry, its my friend, i dont have a problem with u :eek:
ummmmmmmmm, like i say, scarred of what they dont know, and what "others" might think of them if they accpeted it.

[cheryl62]

Because since the dawn of time men controlled the world, Islam, Christianity - religions alike all have one thing in common - men are in control.

Men fear this change, men already dislike the rigor that feminist types have when they want something - (I'm not saying this is you, it's an example)
It's just something that will take time to change.


Only time will change it, and more of you coming out. Men have been coming out for years, only a handful of women in history have dressed up as men to do something heroic etc.

In time this will all change :)
A good point as a MTF men cannot understand why i would like to dress and look like in there eyes some sort of lesser being i dont think things will change very soon you only have to look around at most governments,large corporations etc to see men are still in control

[Felix]

Well said Jess I think ya got it spot on Hun xx Felix :hugs:

[Sheila]

thanks Felix

:hugs: Jess