Oh s*** - what do I do?

[Emma_Forbes]

Hi All,

Troublesome situation. At work earlier this week there were 3 colleagues having a laugh about a previous workplace of one of them where there was a transitioning t-girl working. They were laughing and joking about restrooms and finally suggested much to their mirth that she should use the disabled one because it was the most suitable place for her.

I was upset and angry about this exchange but felt powerless to do anything about it. Although I am not transitioning, I have friends who are. I am not out at work, nor is it an option for me. The company have an anti-discrimination policy but I do not feel able to bring it to the attention of h.r. without incriminating myself or opening the door to questions about 'who spilled the beans'. I also don't want to get my colleagues into trouble because they are generally good people.

If only they knew I'm sure it wouldn't recur!

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Em

[Lisa Golightly]

To be honest I'd just end up stating in a Golightly(tm) way... You're the f'ing disabled f'ers, you f'ing bunch of f'ing stupid f'ers.

[myMichelle]

To be honest I'd just end up stating in a Golightly(tm) way... You're the f'ing disabled f'ers, you f'ing bunch of f'ing stupid f'ers.


You're always so lady-like, Lisa:lol: :devil:

[Lisa Golightly]

You're always so lady-like, Lisa:lol: :devil:

I know... My Mum despairs :)

[Cristi]

There should be a way to address this that does not involve 'outing' yourself. I've run into this also, not only with 'jokes' about CDs/Transgedered people, but with comments about just about any minority group you could name.

Some people just don't 'get it' yet that it is never right to degrade others, even if they are not there to hear you! What I try to do is just make some comment or response indicating that I didn't really find their attempts at humor very funy. Maybe with just a bit of social pressure, these people might start to THINK in that moment between opening their mouth and beginning to talk!

BTW: This brings a related story to mind. I was at work once years ago in a business that involved a lot of interaction with the public. A coworker started a conversation with "I just had a man in here that was dressed as a woman"

Oh great I thought, since I had always though of him as kind of a redneck, here we go!

His next sentence took me by surprise, though. "So I was wondering, do you think I should have called him 'Ma'm' or 'Sir'. I called him Sir, but now think I did the wrong thing".

There is hope...

[Charolette time]

There should be a way to address this that does not involve 'outing' yourself. I've run into this also, not only with 'jokes' about CDs/Transgedered people, but with comments about just about any minority group you could name.

Some people just don't 'get it' yet that it is never right to degrade others, even if they are not there to hear you! What I try to do is just make some comment or response indicating that I didn't really find their attempts at humor very funy. Maybe with just a bit of social pressure, these people might start to THINK in that moment between opening their mouth and beginning to talk!

BTW: This brings a related story to mind. I was at work once years ago in a business that involved a lot of interaction with the public. A coworker started a conversation with "I just had a man in here that was dressed as a woman"

Oh great I thought, since I had always though of him as kind of a redneck, here we go!

His next sentence took me by surprise, though. "So I was wondering, do you think I should have called him 'Ma'm' or 'Sir'. I called him Sir, but now think I did the wrong thing".

There is hope...

Wearing skirts or pants ive done both, what you could have done is leave a note on there desk and tell them in no uncerten way if it doesnt stop ,that they will be reported to management, you do not have to sign it but they will get the drift, man or ladie makes no difference Love Charolette

[murphysd2004]

Depending on where you are, there are laws in some states (including California), that prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation (including transgender issues). In order to have standing to complaint, the party complaining must be the one about whom (or to whom) the remarks were directed.

[tall_brianna]

Nothing HR can do, since they weren't being discriminatory and the subject person doesn't even work there.

How about this? Hang out with them. It'll come up again, no doubt. Next time, when you're in on it, turn the table. "I can only imagine how difficult such a transition is. Can you even begin to fathom the amount of courage that would take?"

In the words of an infamous missionary, "You don't always have to beat the heathens over the head to convert them."

-b

[Tedi]

High powered rifle (bolt action) with an accurate scope.

Oh s**t, I probably shouldn't have said that.

I'm so bad.

[Amy Hepker]

I don't think you should write a note, But i do think that you should type a note about the problem at hand and let the management know that there is a problem in the ranks about the discrimination that is going on within the company. I would not be to specific about who said it, but I would let them know what was said. (this is if you weren't the only one who heard it) The company should address the problem and let everyone know that this sort of thing (Discrimination, Degradation, and such) should not go on within the company. This is everybodies right. It is Sexual Harrassment and bad things can happen to a company that is caught not enforcing this LAW! Nobody can talk about the clothes you wear or what you do in your own time. I used to work for the state of Iowa and we had to go through Sexual Harrassment classes. Like I said type a note and tell what happened and somehow get it to the right people. I would not sign it though. If nothing happens, I would get a hold of the government to enforce the LAW! This really goes for anyplace you go (Dining, any Businesses, on and on) I know a lot of times that things don't happen without a signed document.

[AprilMae]

As repugnat as the conversation may be, I have a problem when the out of control PC environment in many workplaces tries to control conversations between two people on a non business level. If two people are talking in a reasonable volume, not so the whole office can hear, and a third person hears what they say without being brought into the conversation, they should mind their business. I do. In my workplace I hear all sorts of things walking past cubicles, but it's not my business. Sometimes it's hard to do, but it's a good practice, in my opinion.

[sandra-leigh]

At work earlier this week there were 3 colleagues having a laugh about a previous workplace of one of them where there was a transitioning t-girl working. They were laughing and joking about restrooms and finally suggested much to their mirth that she should use the disabled one because it was the most suitable place for her.

I was upset and angry about this exchange but felt powerless to do anything about it.


Were there any supervisors present? If so, and if it had been in Canada, then the supervisors would have been required to act (once the matter had come to their awareness.)

I used to be a supervisor, and we were told very firmly that if we were witness to any discrimination (including ethnic jokes) that we were personally responsible for ensuring that something was done about the situation, no matter who was involved, even if the discrimination was with respect to (or done by) guests or contractors or non-employees. Similarily if someone witnessed some discrimination and brought it to us in our role as supervisors: personal responsibility to act. No exceptions. In law here, if a supervisor fails to act against discrimination they witnessed or that someone brought to them, then the supervisor becomes individually liable. It's that old "the employer knew or ought to have known" allegation -- and every supervisor is an agent of the employer for such a purpose.


Anyhow... you may wish to consider constructing a throw-away email account such as at hushmail.com, and send a letter to HR. But watch out for characteristic phrasings and characteristic typos!

[sandra-leigh]

As repugnat as the conversation may be, I have a problem when the out of control PC environment in many workplaces tries to control conversations between two people on a non business level. If two people are talking in a reasonable volume, not so the whole office can hear, and a third person hears what they say without being brought into the conversation, they should mind their business.

Discrimination in the workplace florishes because people go along with it, not wanting to get involved, feeling that it isn't their duty to do anything.

In Canada, the Human Rights Act deems that that isn't good enough for supervisors or management: every such person has a "positive duty of care" to act and record the action. Even when the joke was funny.

"Positive duty of care" is the same kind of legal standard as is required for reporting forest fires or reporting child abuse: things that are considered to be contribute substantial dangers to others if they are not done.

[Tina Dixon]

It's just people BSing, don't make a big deal over it is the way I look at it.

[MJ]

well last Friday it was my turn to get picked on and i did not like it this is what happened :-
it was lunch time and i was talking to a co worker about eye liner when this guy started saying " you are sick twisted bar*&*d " i told him that he could not catch " gid " but just run his mouth off ..
well last Monday i went to work and i found out he got fired... i did not want that not this close to Christmas and i can handle myself .. but the other workers were offended and told h.r and now he is gone
you owe it to your tg friend that is not acceptable

[Kate Simmons]

This type of talk is mostly due to ignorance and insensibility. You have to consider the source. Pay it no mind, Em.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[AprilMae]

There is a difference at least to me, between making comments about someone, in a private conversation, and making comments to someone. If those same people were denigrating say their boss, a relatively common ocurrance, should a third party overhearing them make an issue of it? I think not Actively harrasing someone or doing other direct action should not be tolerated certainly, but thoughts and opinions, presented in private between individuals should be protected, no matter how offensive they may be.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[tanya3]

obviously you would nt go out with them dresed so blow it off . let them watch the game , dink beer and fall asleep . i don't care what ignorant people have to say about ts or cd have fun and be who you are not what people think you shoud be !!!!!!!!

[sandra-leigh]

There is a difference at least to me, between making comments about someone, in a private conversation, and making comments to someone. If those same people were denigrating say their boss, a relatively common ocurrance, should a third party overhearing them make an issue of it? I think not Actively harrasing someone or doing other direct action should not be tolerated certainly, but thoughts and opinions, presented in private between individuals should be protected, no matter how offensive they may be.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

In my opinion, you are wrong. Denigrating the boss is harmful activity. There are ways of expressing negative comments that are not denigration. "I have experienced this, and it made me feel this way; do you have some ideas on how to cope with this?" is not at all the same as denigrating a person.

There was someone at my workplace who was going around having "private conversations" about me, working to undermine me. The person never talked to me about whatever their beef was, but through their "private conversations" they convinced a fair number of people that I was incompetant, and that I was mostly trying to hold on to my empire, and that people shouldn't talk to me but should go to that person instead. Because these were "private conversations", these people never brought the concerns to me, or asked me for my analysis. This person had access to outside funds and so could make promises and deals for new equipment whereas I had to spend a lot of my time duct-taping together decade-old equipment, and being highly pressured to cut my budget (which in turn meant I had no chance of modernizing -- and no break in which to even study the more modern equipment.)
Essentially that person's campaign was successful: I was laterally transferred from a position with a high budget, some staff, and strong responsibilities, to a position with no budget, no staff, and low responsibilities. Not because I was actually doing anything wrong, but because enough people believed that I was doing everything wrong, that I could no longer work effectively. Sort of like Congress or Parliament: you might actually be doing the better than anyone should reasonably expect, but if the times are tough, then sometimes one needs to bring in "new blood" because people believe that someone else could do better.
(Don't misunderstand here: I was not forced into the new position, I was offered the new position and accepted it knowing that it was about the best that could realistically be expected. What was really needed was for a whole bunch of people, including much of management, to be given a really good talking to about the professional way to treat people with respect... but it would needed a big shakeup in the way the whole place operates.)

The campaign against me succeeded largely because the culture of the workplace was such that people felt that mud-slugging was acceptable, and people believed that they had no personal responsibility to be above-board and transparently fair and honest.
Any workplace culture in which denegrating a boss flourishes, is a workplace culture in which people by and large do not treat each other (at any level) with respect. A workplace should never tolerate denegration, and HR should be making that clear to everyone. Real people get hurt in that kind of workplace culture.
I was pretty close to quitting a number of times, and some days the stress of dealing with the situation would literally make me too sick to go in. The situation was a personal hell that literally made me sick, because of the culture of disrespect.

The way that your co-workers deal with each other is at least as much your business as is any matter of fundamental justice.

[Country girl]

I know that to do nothing is a hard thing to do. But so many people are ignorant in their beliefs and like to run their mouths. As you said the person they were refering to doesn't work there, so even though it was out of line and uncalled for, the only person, to your knowledge, who was offended was yourself. As you also stated, to out yourself would not be acceptable where you work, so why risk it? Let the stupid remain so. However if they make more inappropriate comments within earshot of yourself, you could say something like "he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone". Remind them that this is Jesus's point of view and if they think they are better than Jesus, well then those are pretty big shoes to fill. Whatever you decide, good luck to you. Take care!

[Joy Carter]

[QUOTE=tess-leigh;631654]In my opinion, you are wrong. Denigrating the boss is harmful activity. There are ways of expressing negative comments that are not denigration. "I have experienced this, and it made me feel this way; do you have some ideas on how to cope with this?" is not at all the same as denigrating a person.

Key word here "OPINION". Doesn't make it wrong, discriminatory or illegal. You have the right to express your opinion even if it hurst someone. That doesn't make it right. It's just plain rude. I was raised to have a thick skin and I guess that is where I'm coming from. You can't stop people from speaking their minds just because you don't like it. In my opinion "GET A LIFE WILL YA !":rolleyes:

[AprilMae]

In my opinion, you are wrong.,

Wouldn't be the first time, nor the last I'm sure. While distressing, your situation is different. Someone was ACTIVELY doing things do undermine you and your authority, which affected the business operations as well as your well being. The situation described here entailed people expressing opinions. Expressing opinions is one of our fundamental rights, at least for the time being, and and if those opinions do not lead to actions, then there is no issue. You can't prosecute someone for thinking about killing someone, only when they try to do it. I don't want some Law telling me who I can like or dislike, who I have to respect. That's up to me. I don't care what my co workers think of me personally, they're not my friends. As long as we get our job done. When I go home, they are out of my mind.

Your opinion is based on your experience and I respect that, so I will just agree to disagree. Don't want to start a Border Skirmish.

[TxKimberly]

Hi All,

Troublesome situation. At work earlier this week there were 3 colleagues having a laugh about a previous workplace of one of them where there was a transitioning t-girl working. They were laughing and joking about restrooms and finally suggested much to their mirth that she should use the disabled one because it was the most suitable place for her.

I was upset and angry about this exchange but felt powerless to do anything about it. Although I am not transitioning, I have friends who are. I am not out at work, nor is it an option for me. The company have an anti-discrimination policy but I do not feel able to bring it to the attention of h.r. without incriminating myself or opening the door to questions about 'who spilled the beans'. I also don't want to get my colleagues into trouble because they are generally good people.

If only they knew I'm sure it wouldn't recur!

Any advice would be much appreciated.

Em
My opinion? When you walk the tight rope between being unable or unwilling to "come out" but your principles are put to the test, about the only option you have is to set the example. Giving them hell will not help. Trying to bring them around to your point of view by arguing probably will not help. Setting the example by not joining in on this type of junk, or laughing at their comments, is about the only realistic option you have. If your prepared to take it a little further, you may comment that you happen to know a TS, think well of her, and don't care to hear her slammed for what she is.

Kim (who has no real business giving out advice)

[Dee Model]

An increasingly militant mofo, I find I reject much of society's predetermined heteromoronic opinions. They are just idiot normaloid jock a**holes. My advice...fugetaboudit! Modrern life is rubbish! I look forward to a more enlightened state of being in the next one! OK, yeah, I know already, I'm too cynical for my own good! Live by your own rules babe. Everyone else's? They suck and blow!!!

Live Fast...

Love,

Dee xxx :doll:

[Jillian310]

Hmf: More than a few wimps on this string!

[sandra-leigh]

Someone was ACTIVELY doing things do undermine you and your authority, which affected the business operations as well as your well being. The situation described here entailed people expressing opinions.

Yes, but the reason it worked for them was that the workplace has a culture of bad-mouthing, and there has never been a serious effort to transform that into a culture of respect.



Expressing opinions is one of our fundamental rights, at least for the time being.

No: in Canada and the USA "Freedom of Speech" applies to public speech, not to the workplace.

I don't just mean that in a facile way. I have spent a fair bit of time reading about rights of expression and communications, including discussing the points with lawyers. I have a personal interest in the topic, and it was also part of my job.
The only "Freedom of Speech" that applies in the workplace is that which is explicitly granted by the employer under some conditions, circumscribed by Civil Rights or Human Rights acts and Labor Codes or Labour Codes, and augmented only by any "whistleblower" or mandatory reporting legislation applicable to the situation.

If someone has an opinion that is inconsistant with the limits laid down by the employer and the applicable laws, then to the extent that the opinion does not reveal anything restricted by a confidentiality agreement or secrecy oath, the person may reveal the opinion in a public place or in a private dweeling where they have been permitted to reveal it -- but if they are in the workplace, then they must conform to any employment code and laws. Hereabouts, those laws include e.g., non-discrimination on any of the "Prohibitted Grounds" of the Canada Human Rights Act.

Bad-mouthing and denigration has no place in the workplace, not even in "private conversations". There is no right to express such things on the employer's time or on the employer's property.

[trannie T]

1. They were not engaged in a private conversation, if they could easily b e overheard they have no reasonablr expectation of privacy.

2. Their remarks were insensitive at best and bordering on hate speach at worst.

This type of behavior has absolutely no business in the workplace. Looks like more training in cultural issues is necessary.

[sandra-leigh]

In my opinion, you are wrong.

Key word here "OPINION". Doesn't make it wrong, discriminatory or illegal. You have the right to express your opinion even if it hurst someone.

Well, No. As a point of law, you do NOT have the right to express opinions in the workplace, or in any private place that you do not control (and even in private places, not on all occasions).

For example, if I were to post some really obnoxious remark here, one of the administrators could delete my post or ban me from the site entirely. But according to what you have written, I have a "right" to express my opinion, no matter how hurtful. So would the administrators here be violating my rights by deleting or blocking? The legal answer is NO: this forum is not a Public Place, this is a private place where Free Speech rights do not apply. Workplaces are not Public Places either: Free Speech rights do not apply in them.


You can't stop people from speaking their minds just because you don't like it.

Incorrect. In a workplace, you can stop people from speaking their minds, except where some law has specifically required their report (e.g., health and safety). Consider, for example, all the US states and federal locations in which doctors are flat out prohibitted from discussing abortion under most circumstances.

Furthermore, as I previously mentioned, in some jurisdictions, for some forms of expression, you (managers and up) must stop people from speaking their mind in the workplace.

If I were still a manager, and I were to walk by someone's office here, and I overheard someone referring to someone else as (say) "a faggot", then I could literally be jailed if I ignored the matter and left it alone. No choice: supervisor and up must act to prevent "a hostile workplace environment". I might have been the one to overhear that particular remark, but other people might overhear other remarks.

If you can overhear the conversation by accident, then the conversation was not a private conversation. And even if no-one overhears, some conversations are simply not acceptable in the workplace.

Are you familiar with the 1994 civil rights case against Texaco?
http://www.parl.gc.ca/35/2/parlbus/chambus/senate/deb-e/067db_1997-02-05-E.htm?Language=E&Parl=35&Ses=2#0.2.X57BJ2.5QMK3A.H3IV9G.QA
I would post a few sentances of what was recorded on tape in a closed meeting in the Texaco boardroom in August 1994, but I cannot bring myself to do so, even for point of illustration.
I would urge that if you still feel that hurtful opinions are permissible in the workplace, that you examine the above link and see what kinds of things get said in "private conversations" in workplaces which have not made a conscious effort to inculcate respect.

[Scotty]

Simple response from me would be something along the lines of

"She's got more balls than any of you will ever have"..

But then most people don't want to be involved and it could open up some unwanted doors......

And Lisa - You always seem so quiet, I can't imagine you saying that!! :D :D

[Stephenie S]

Put the shoe on another foot and see what you think.

Supose for a minute that you are an African American sitting eating lunch in the break room and two fellow employees are yukking it up making fun of ni***rs. Or what if you are Jewish and your two co-workers are making fun of kikes? Or you are a blond woman and they are telling stupid blond jokes. All of these examples contain behavior which has no business in the workplace. In which one of them would you speak up? Would you say anything at all? Of course you can say, "Well, it's just their opinion". But all of these behaviors represents discrimination to some degree. Where do we draw the line?

I think if you are unwilling to speak out, you should at least speak to HR about the fact that you overheard this. It's easy to remain silent but it's also wrong.

Stephenie

[Blonde]

Touchy ground here.....So many factors here in this problem. And with the story about the guy getting fired over his comments.....it brings "home" the powers of "1984".....Where does one draw the line?
Were the comments made for the whole office to hear them, or were they just ment for the person he was talking to? (and you just happened to overhear them)
If they were loud enough for the office to hear, then yes talk to HR....but if not, don't talk to HR. (Are you "big brother"?)

Even Ignorant "a#$3s" have a right to thier opinion. It would be nice if everyone was intelligent enought to understand the divercity of the world, but some choose to "wallow" in thier ignorance.

Now don't get me wrong here... I don't agree with what he said, and believe he needs "re-education" on the subject, but the day anyone is not allowed thier own opinion (even if it is uniformed) is the day that opens the door for "thought control" (which could affect all of us who do not "conform" to the norm sooner or later)

[Helen MC]

Two points seem to occur here.

Firstly, we are NOT Canada nor one of the more enlightened States of the USA. In the Uk whilst it is illegal to make derogatory remarks about Homosexuals, Blacks and other Races, the Disabled, Women and recently Older Employees, and many employers have a Code of Conduct which threatens Disciplinary Action up to Dismissal for making such remarks be they jokes or serious in the workplace, there is as far as I am aware no such legally backed protection for Transvestites. As has also been said the person being discussed didn't work there so your HR Dept could do very little. BTW HR is NOT there to help the Worker, it is what it says on the tin, HUMAN RESOURCES part of Management as is the Accounts Dept or Logistics, only it manages the Workforce as a RESOURCE much as the Stores manage Components and Materials, and Engineering and Maintenance will manage the Machinery, or IT the Computers. So don't get sentimental about HR, they will get rid of the broken cog in the machine as surely as Maintenance would scrap a worn out grinder.

I very seriously advise you NOT to reveal yourself nor do anything which would cause suspicion about your own CD situation. I have in the past been accidentally "busted" in a hostile work environment and it made my life there a misery till I got another job. I'm sad to say that unless you wish to be a Martyr for the Cause you will have to grin and bear it or change jobs if it bugs you that much.

On the other matter raised of "Disparaging the Boss" let's get real here folks. Nearly every employee does that for time to time, some more than others and unless the comments are slanderous or grossly abusive most wise Managers etc simply ignore it. The "one big happy family" Employment scenario is for TV shows only. In real life, at least here in the UK, there is an adversarial situation in most Companies of any appreciable size , "US" the Ordinary Workers and "THEM" the Bosses, Managers, Supervisors or whatever name is fashionable this week. Moaning is a way to get it out of your system to fellow workers. If a Company tried to suppress this then disatisfaction could turn to more serious means such as sabotage. Most firms, unless there is a recognised Trade Union, do not have a decent consultative system and thus a culture of disatisfaction is present and will result in running down "The Boss", managers, supervisors etc , when they are out of earshot of course. There is also the feeling that whilst an Employee works for a Company he or she will hate it in many ways and disparage some of its polices and activities. Again as long as they are not doing so to customers and risking the loss of business this is par for the course in most places. Here in the UK we do not "Sing the Company song" like the Japs do, it's not in our Culture. Most people work for their wages and when they clock off and walk out the door at the end of the working day they do not want to know about their Employer until the they go back to work again and do their 8 hours.

[AprilMae]

Give Helen a Bra and Garter Belt out of Petty Cash. She has summed it up nicely.

[Joy Carter]

Ya know Tess you are right about the work place issue. But does that cover only select groups ??

", then I could literally be jailed if I ignored the matter and left it alone."

I have heard of fines being levied but jail time for not addressing one's subtenants speech ?

[Emma_Forbes]

First I'd like to sincerely thank all those who have taken the time to reply whether it be a few words or a weighty tome....

The legal issues, which are not perhaps so pronounced here in the UK, are interesting and, in my opinion not the way to go.

In this case, I will do nothing as the opoortune moment has now passed and there is my anonymity to consider. If that is deemed to be the easy way out, then so be it.

However I am sad that today's society has been so conditioned and legislated to be tolerant that it has actually become less tolerant. The ideal solution would I think to have said something like, "That's a rather unkind way of speaking about someone else. Couldn't you be a bit more gracious and accepting in your views?" Unfortunately the current pc climate has actually made advice like that more difficult.

If a similar situation arises over another minority group with whom I have no covert connection, I may well challenge them directly with such a comment. Perhaps that will suggest to them that there is no need to be derogatory or rude and cause a change in their behaviour. In my dreams......

Thanks again to all,

Em