CD stuff that puzzles me

[MarinaTwelve200]

I might seem like some sort of "know it all" to some folks here, but there are a lotta things, concerning CD that puzzle the hell out of me. I suppose those mysteries are what drive me to learn more and more.---Things i dont understand bug the crap outa me.:D

Here is a short list of my favorite CD "mysteries"

1. Why do a lotta GAY people seem to be into CDing? Transsexuals not withstanding, one would think that gay guys would be the LEAST likely persons to CD---dressing up like "yucky" women and girly stuff.---Perhaps its only an "illusion" that gays are especially prone to CDing, but that does not make any sense to me.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? Little girls are not sexually attractive (unless one is a pedophile) but MOST important they werar no makeup, have no boobs and dont wear high heels or other sexy clothing---none of the "good" CD stuff. I aint figguered this one out either--unless its a play on the "ultimate vulnerability or helplessness of little girls. I dont mean to be insulting here---I'm cool with everyones personal variations, it just that I dont understand some of them.

3. CDing without makeup? This is likely a less complex "mystery", but in my opinion, a guy somehow seems to be holding onto a part of his male identity is he does not also "cover" his face and change that into its female aspect too.

Im sure I can think of a few more things that puzzle me, but these will do for now.---- Do you have any personal CD mysyeries too? or Any comments that may be of help?

[Vicky_Scot]

To address your points.

1. Why do a lotta GAY people seem to be into CDing? This is not the case. The vast majority of men who cd are straight and married or in long term relationships.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? I have yet to meet a or talk with a cd who likes to dress as a little girl. I would find this quite disturbing if they did.

3. CDing without makeup? Woman do not always wear makeup.

[Kate Simmons]

It depends on what your motivation is for CDing. Some gay guys want to be more "attractive" to their boyfriends, so sometimes dress "pretty" like girls. This is only an means to an end though and in the end who is fooling who anyhow? Some CD's can only be with guys when they are en femme. That's one even I haven't figured out yet and I've been with guys.The "little girls " have something they call the little girl "ethic". That is, to be sweet, do no harm and to play games, etc. I know several "little girls" over 6 feet but they seem to play the role quite nicely. As far as guys going out cross dressed with no makeup, ya got me too. To go out in a dress, pantyhose and heels and just have a guy haircut and/or beard or mustache is all some need I guess. Far be it from me to judge anyone because as Ericka, I enjoy CDing as Eric myself. To each his own and really I don't think any of us are any weirder than a polar bear trying to look like a penguin. :happy: Ericka/Rich

[Scotty]

Why do we do it? That may be the biggest mystery!

Myself, I identify as a woman, although not 100% because my lifestyle and because 35 years of male programming have to be undone....

I see gay guys that act femme but do not DRESS it, and in fact the few that I do know are WONDERFUL at matching colors, decorating - maybe it goes hand in hand...

But if a guy likes his male side, is he/she actually PART TG but not willing to give up his male side?

I believe as the doctor said, that while genetic identity is at 8 weeks and sexual identity at 24 (? I could be off) - maybe it's not a black and white thing, maybe those chromosomes get mixed slightly.

Who knows, that may be a mystery!

[trannie T]

1. The vast majority of crossdressers are straight, a few gays dress as women but usually as drag queens, an exaggerated form of feminine dressing.

2. In my opinion the 'litlte girl' look is more of a fetish as are rubber and latex clothing. Those that choose to dress as little girls are a different group from most crossdressers.

3. Some of us are not adept at putting on makeup. Some of us are only attracted to clothing and not to makeup.

[CharleneCD]

I am going to tackle #2.

I frequetly find myself in stores looking at the little girl clothesthinking how cute they are and wishing they were my size. Thereis nothing sexual about it or a desire to be sexy. I think it has more to do with the late age I came into my CDing, and a longing for a missed girly childhood. But do to size issues and appropriatness I must just have to do with my adult disney pj,s.

[MJ]

well my question is why do CD . do it .. for me being a ts i got it all sorted out my means justify my ends " i am a woman feel like a woman there for dress like a woman and will get surgery to complete the job" but for a CD well you don't want surgery or hormones so why do you do it ? thats my question... and a good one too bet you can't answer that :D

[Sharon]

1- What's a lot? It is no more prevalent in the gay community than the straight, so I don't know why you think it's so common. Besides, gender and sexuality are two very distinct things.

2 - I don't understand this either, but as long as pedophilia isn't involved, I say "to each their own."

3 - I hardly ever do without some amount of make-up, but you have to understand that there are all different levels of crossdressing. Many crossdressers are interested in just one particular piece of clothing and don't care at all about anything else. There are also some that get more enjoyment from make-up than they do clothing. Everyone has their own place in the world and we're all different to some degree or another.

[rickie121x]

....short list of my favorite CD "mysteries"
..... I can address question 2:
2. CDing like "Little girls".?

To me, "little girls" are the ones under sixty :cute: .... And that is the target of my dressing and makeup process; to look under sixty. And if I work at it... for about two hours, I can make that happen. ...not so easy, as I am 72.

The deeper meaning is a lot more powerful, the sensual notions of feminity that I am able to allow to emerge, to emulate, to make my being lighter and more pleasurable. Ummmmmn, ummmm, ummm! :rose2:

Rickie

[thea]

Interesting topic about the mysteries. What makes me wonder is the variety of crossdressing among CDs. There are those for whom CDing happens in phases or cycles and they're fine the rest of the time going without; there are the full-timers whether all the way or full-time underdressed and otherwise fully dressed when they have the opportunity; there are the catalogers who keep a complete count of each type of clothing they own, and the collectors who concentrate on a specific item as a fetish; for some, wearing the clothes is enough while others have to achieve the complete look; many prefer to remain behind closed doors while others want to be public; and of course some are in it for the psyche while others concentrate on the libido. And all of that just has to do with crossdressers regardless of sexual orientation, and doesn't include other TG people like transsexuals or performance female impersonators.

For the mysteries you brought up, Marina Twelve, I speculate like this. Gay "bottoms" might want to dress to more approximate the traditional female role, and of course while most CDers are heterosexual, there's a proportion of gays who are into it, too, as it's not directly related to sexual orientation. A lot of gays grew up being labeled effeminate and being called sissies, and in adulthood they get to spread those wings and claim their femininity.

"Little girls" and other "adult sissies" have chosen or are driven (likely some of each) to focus on a particular period of life, which could relate to a time of feeling secure or to attributing security to an age and style of dress, or it could be complex in other ways. To the best of my knowledge and relief, these "specialists" are into being childlike, not being predatory toward children.

Makeup's the easy one. Some are into dressing, not appearing. Others want to be as natural as they can be, and view makeup as masking, and won't wear wigs either. And plenty have restrictions of time or other circumstance that doesn't give them the leisure or opportunity to apply makeup.

[Jenna1561]

Well, I live in a small town and

1 - the only 3 gay people I know, do not CD.
2 - I don't know any CDers who like little girl clothes, though they are pretty and I wish that I had had a childhood where I could have been dressed in such finery.
3 - Some are not comfortable with makeup and would prefer none, or they are not ever leaving their homes and don't feel the need for makeup.

Now MJ,

I don't really know where I fall in the CD/TG/TS spectrum. I have always thought I should have been born a girl, have always felt uncomfortable being a boy in a boy's world. I prefer to dress as a woman. I feel more at ease in women's clothing and prefer to wear makeup all the time because it improves my look. Were it not for my wife and children, I am certain I would be on HRT and at least have an orchey (spelling?) done, maybe not SRS (expensive). So, I guess I am further down the road to TS than CD.


Jenna

[Kimkandy]

1. I don't think Gay guys are that much into CD'in, :2c: but I'm no expert here...

3. Women do not always wear a lot of makeup all the time. Especially when there just nipping out to do some shopping at the supermarket. If you can get away with it, I think you can often pass better using less makeup.

One CD mystery I find intriguing is that even though people may start trying on female clothes as young as 4 or 5 or in their teens. They often don't do much about it till much later. It seems much less common for CD's and Transsexuals to know what they want in their late teens or early twenties.

Kim

:dom: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Kathryn Philips]

1) The percentage of gay crossdressers is roughly equal to the percentage of gay men in the male population. Homosexual orientation and being "gender gifted" are unrelated phenomena. Most gay men discover their sexuality during their middle to late teens whereas judging from reading many CDs bios, most of "us" knew about our interest in girls clothes,etc. before we were 10. I am straight and have never had any doubt even though I have wanted to be a woman since I was 5. Only ignorant, homophobic beople believe in the equation crossdressing=gay.

2) The only time I wanted to dress as a little girl was when I was a child myself. As an adult I simply cannot answer this because I don't understand what motivates this type of CD to do so.

3) If I could wear make-up I would. I barely have a chance to put on a skirt ocasionaly because my wife rarely leaves our house for long enough. I think this is the case with lots of closeted CDs. Its not a matter of choice but of lack of opportunity.

[Kate Simmons]

Based on some of the comments I've seen, I'm wondering how many here have really taken the time to get to know many gay people, gay people that crossdress, "little girls" and guys who just want to wear dresses, etc. but no makeup? I have and I've pretty much seen it all. It comes as no surprise to those here who know me that I accept everyone for who they choose to be or how they choose to present themselves to their friends and to the world at large. Simply put, I've taken the time to widen out in my getting to know people and what I've found is that people are just people after all, despite what they appear to be to others. How could I feel they are any "weirder " than myself. That would kind of be like the "pot" calling the "kettle" black, no? Anyway, by taking the time to get to know them, I've "demystified" some of these CD mysteries for myself at least.:happy: Ericka

[Audrey34]

Hi Marina Twelve:
I'm no expert but here are some theories I have:
1. I've read many studies on crossdressing that show hetersexual males crossdress more so than gay males.
2. The "little girl" look has many fans. I even saw several japanese "cos-play" websites which featured many males dressing up in schoolgirl (sailorsuit) outfits. As long as real children aren't involved I don't see any harm. As for myself, I prefer to dress like a lady my own age.
3. I myself do not use make-up. It's kind of like the last frontier for me. I also know a lot of real women who also do not use make-up. Years ago I once dated a lady who literally could not tear herself away from her compact (she had to touch up this, powder that, etc). She wouldn't even let me kiss her because "no, you'll ruin my face!" Arrgh! Worst date I ever had.
-Audrey

[Nike]

well my question is why do CD . do it .. for me being a ts i got it all sorted out my means justify my ends " i am a woman feel like a woman there for dress like a woman and will get surgery to complete the job" but for a CD well you don't want surgery or hormones so why do you do it ? thats my question... and a good one too bet you can't answer that :D


Some are born decidedly masculine, regardless of birth sex. Others feminine. CD's fall somewhere between the "black" and the "white" extremes of the gender spectrum, into the "grey" area. Some of us tilt more one way or the other and others like myself fall right in the middle with an equal balance of masculine and feminine traits, expresson and/or needs.

Everyone recognizes the classic so-called Macho male and the ultra-fem woman at each end. TS's fall to the "almost all" to "all" feminine (MTF) or masculine (FTM) end. CD's through no choice of their own, walk with one foot firmly planted on the masculine side and the other planted as firmly in the feminine.

I personally consider myself blessed to experience the balance of the "center" of the gender spectrum. It affords all the colors known. I have lived a time where I did not allow for feminine expression in my life. I soon recognized the limitation a view from only one end of this spectrum imprisoned me in. It felt very dark and heavy. It was a place of isolation.

Today, I still enjoy the vast contrast of the black and white extremes, but am most at peace under the infinate rainbow in the center.

[Teresa Amina]

well my question is why do CD . do it .. for me being a ts i got it all sorted out my means justify my ends " i am a woman feel like a woman there for dress like a woman and will get surgery to complete the job" but for a CD well you don't want surgery or hormones so why do you do it ? thats my question... and a good one too bet you can't answer that :D

There was an old Phone Company advertisement that said "Next best thing to being there". I think that pretty well answers it :D

[MarinaTwelve200]

Hi Marina Twelve:
I'm no expert but here are some theories I have:
1. I've read many studies on crossdressing that show hetersexual males crossdress more so than gay males.
2. The "little girl" look has many fans. I even saw several japanese "cos-play" websites which featured many males dressing up in schoolgirl (sailorsuit) outfits. As long as real children aren't involved I don't see any harm. As for myself, I prefer to dress like a lady my own age.
3. I myself do not use make-up. It's kind of like the last frontier for me. I also know a lot of real women who also do not use make-up. Years ago I once dated a lady who literally could not tear herself away from her compact (she had to touch up this, powder that, etc). She wouldn't even let me kiss her because "no, you'll ruin my face!" Arrgh! Worst date I ever had.
-Audrey


YES. I realize CDing has nothing to do with sexuality---and ALSO I know that No more proportion of gays than hetros CD----I am just puzzled by WHY the PERCEPTION is that CDs APPEAR to CD more.

The little girl thing is just something I simply don't "get"----no criticisim here, but everything most of us CDers CD for just aint there with a little girl look. I would simply like to understand the WHY of it out of curiosity.

The no makeup thing I can almost grasp, but it don't work for me--I gotta have at least my Lipstick, or I aint CDin'. It seems to be a sort of variant where other parts of the body are focused on. I equate IDENTITY with the FACE---perhaps the no makeup crowd has a diferent approach to identity---they may already identify with women and dont need to change the face.

[Sweet Jane]

Hi

Marina, as for your puzzles, I can't help too much. I don't have stats on gays CDing and I have never really thought of it, I know some do the infant thing, but I've never thought about that either, and as for the makeup, I'd dress without makeup sometimes...don't know why, but maybe I just wanted to wear a skirt???

MJ...why do I crossdress. I have always thought that possibly before I was born something got f#*ked up in my brain, the wires got crossed and 2 plus 2 then equalled panties and bra.....Do I dress because its embarrassing?, demeaning?, a threat to my job?, a threat to my marriage?, to give me something to do when I'm on my own?, it drives me crazy (literally)?, to make me mentally unstable?,.....(insert anything else here)...,.

See, my crossdressing defies any logic, it's a ridiculous thing to do if you think sanely about it, yet I do it. Can't be solely about pleasurable feelings as I could do a million other things to replace this activity and not miss it...yeah pass the box of chocolates!!!!.

So maybe someone can tell me why I dress, because I sure as hell don't know why...

[tammie]

Hi Everyone: Here is my opinion concernign these mysteries. Gay men do not usually CD. Gay men R attracted to men, and most R attracted to manly men, not men dressed as women. Although at this time I will also say there R exceptions to everything in the universe I think.

There R all kinds of fetish dressers IE diapers, little girls, cheer leaders, french maids, nurses etc. Also rubber fetishes and leather. These R not necessarily crossdressers by definition.

Now there R various kinds of crossdressing, panties only for instance. Then there is underdressing [me] I wear lingerie everywhere almost everyday. I cannot pass so I don't try. I do not wear forms or wigs or makeup. Although I fill up a 42C and show some projection I wear a slip or cami over the bra to mute the outline (same reason women used to wear them) and I really don't show to much. I enjoy lipstick but in a natural tone so that it also doesn't show much. I am most content to be what I am but I cannot pass. I am a crossdresser and I am at peace with that aspect of me.

[linnea]

Hi Marina,
I can't help you with your myteries, either. I'm not into any of the things that you mentioned in your first three. I love make-up and think that it is a very important part of my dressing.
I'm not interested in the little girl look or little girl clothes, except on little girls. Then I think that they usually are cute, and apart from common civility, I don't care to have anything to do with them.
I'm not gay, and I don't know many gay guys. Those whom I do know are not CDs (as far as I'm aware).
I think that your questions are interesting. Maybe I can help you with some others. As for these, I have neither the experience nor the knowledge to provide anything enlightening.

[GG Vanya]

This is what is a mystery to me:

Here in the south we have a saying for someone who has it made/has life easy. "you've got a bird nest on the ground!"

It's a mystery to me why so many CDs who have accepting SOs promptly begin treating that bird nest on the ground like an outhouse.

[Sweet Jane]

This is what is a mystery to me:

Here in the south we have a saying for someone who has it made/has life easy. "you've got a bird nest on the ground!"

It's a mystery to me why so many CDs who have accepting SOs promptly begin treating that bird nest on the ground like an outhouse.


Touche......Yes! he says, a little respect and a lot of love. Less "I", more "We". When you are married it's "us", so yeah, I get a little angry when I see disrespect, marriage vows put on the back burner for some frilly underwear and lipstick, and married CDers elevating crossdressing to the most important aspect of ones life....Yes she says, Vanya I agree...

[JulieCDorlando]

Hello Marina,
i hope it isn't to late to add my 2 cents worth to your inquiry.

#1 Society equates CDing to a gay activity is due to what they see or understand by knowing about the drag shows which are popular at most gay bars. I been to a few gay bars and other functions while dressed and have observed very few gay men actually engaging in CDing. Also society feels that a CD is trying to attract a man for sexual gratification purposes.

#2 I am not fully sure why some CD's dress as "little girls". Perhaps it is for a fetish reasons. I do not know of any CD's that engage in this behavior, but I would like to understand why.

#3 CD's that do not use the make up, is for a variety of reasons as much as why a CD dresses. Mostly from restraints from SO's, or perhaps even from lack of technique or for other reasons. I certainly am not an expert at applying make up, but I do use the complete make up, mascara, eye shadow, eye liner, lipstick, blush, perfume when i ever go out fully dressed, as I feel make up completes the look.

[janet p]

This my thoughts:2c: 1. My god son who is gay told me one time grandma(my mother) pointed out to him a person who seemed to be crossdressing,he said he wasn't interested in that type of person. 2. Look at all the ruffles and lace that a little girl gets to wear.The pretty ribbons in the hair. 3.I won't go out with out make-up unless I'm just going to some place where they know me.I still not that good at putting my own make-up so I don't go out very often dressed':love:

[JulieCDorlando]

Hello Ms Vanya,
Like you I am often perplexed by some CD's that do use the "birds nest for an outhouse" too.
I believe Confusious once said " a fish doesn't miss the water, until the fish is out of the water". So maybe that can be applied to those who have over stepped their bounds?
As you are married to a CD, you might know that there are some CD's that feel liberated by an accepting SO. That feeling can be very exhilerating, so there are no rules or boundaries left to overcome or hide. They(CD)can do what they want, or buy anything they want on a whim, place demands on the SO, etc., without due regard to the accepting SO's feelings as things rapidly spiral out of control after this liberation. It is my hope that married CD's or CD's otherwise in a relationship with a SO, to slow things down some, and to adhere to any boundaries that a SO demands, and to ensure that her (SO)needs are met as much as the CD's are being met.
I am sure some married CD's DO NOT fit into the above scenario, but by far there is a great many that do, at least from my observations on other forums.
I do hope that some CD's might take a look at themselves and try to adjust accordingly before it is to late. This is just my :2c:

[Bernadina]

This is what is a mystery to me:

Here in the south we have a saying for someone who has it made/has life easy. "you've got a bird nest on the ground!"

It's a mystery to me why so many CDs who have accepting SOs promptly begin treating that bird nest on the ground like an outhouse.

No mystery around here about that one. I try to remember to treat her like the Princess she is all the time.

I figure those who get in the "I" mode because they CD, would probably eventually treat their SO's poorly anyway.

[GG Vanya]

Julie, you're correct, many don't fit into that scenario. My husband is an exception to the mystery I posted. He was given total acceptance by me from the moment he told me (before our third date). With him, it seems the absolute opposit happened. It's like he was "waiting to exhale".

Bernadina, yes I think that's a great part of the mystery. Crossdressing doesn't change one's core personality. If they are selfish "men" they will be even more selfish enfemme.

What I can not seem to grasp is why they can't see themselves? Wearing a dress never gave *me* tunnel vision. :straightface:

[ReginaK]

1. Some gay men crossdress for entertainment (drag queens). Some crossdress to pick up men. You could make the argument they are latent transexuals. And some are just regular old crossdressers.

2. Fetish. Plain and simple. Just like some adults like wearing diapers.

3. To each their own. Personally, I prefer the makeup. Without it, i'm just a dude in a dress.

[janedoe311]

COs play, i.e. little girls, babies is a sexual fetish, like bondage and SM. Men that dressup as little girls need to be dominated and controlled. It is a fetish.

Gay men like men. They like to be men not women and like to use their male tool on a man. If they get boobs and live as women they are not gay they are transsexuals. If they dress up as women and go after men they probably are not gay but are transgendered and do not know it yet.

Is a transgendered man pre-operation gay if she likes men? It is the label thing again. For the society if are a man and like men then you are gay.

So is a CDer that is gay but wants to be a woman transgendered and not really gay? What came first the chicken or the egg. This is where the confusion comes in. Many TG started up a being called and considered themselves Gay until they learned about themselves and what it is to be a gay man. Being gay did not work for them. Many still fall in that.

Without make up.
You mean in public. Some wear women's clothes because they are more comfortable and do not care what they look like. Some for the shock factor like those in crossdressers in beards.

Not in public. Why wear make up if you are by yourself. I do not look in the mirror, to shocking.
So what is the point of make up.

Just my ideas and probably wrong since I am not a scientist.

[carolinewalker_2000]

Since I have absolutely no idea why I need to crossdress - and have pretty much given up worrying about it! - it seems a bit unfair to speculate on what might drive others. We are all individuals with different personalities but we are also sisters under the skin; so let's just enjoy and celebrate our diversity.

[Lawren]

1. A gay friend of mine once told me that he didn't CD or date CDs because he was a man who wanted another man, not a man dressed like a woman.

2. As for dressing like little girls. That's taboo for me by my own choice. Getting caught dressed would be one thing but getting caught dressed as a little girl might cause some one to think I am a pedophile. That's a risk I will not take, however slime the chances are.

3. I do not wear makeup often because I am not good at applying it and don't go out fully en femme anyway. I also don't like the feel of lipstick.

[jo_ann]

1. gays who CD - if your talking about female impersonation, it's not so much they like it, it's a career for them. They've got the limpy female body movements, the lispy voice,it's probably fairly natural for them to be an impersonator.
2. little girl CD - I can sort of understand this from the perspective of "well, I never got to know what it felt like to grow up as a girl", so they try it once or twice, but those that do it all the time are most likely a mixture of a CD and an adult baby.
3. No makeup - I rarely wear makeup when I xdress, unless I really feel like going all out. it's a lot of work (both to put on and take off), not to mention time consuming, and unless your very perceptive of the feeling of it (or stare at a mirror the entire time) it doesn't have much payoff. For a lot of us it's the feeling, and you can certainly feel the difference in wearing women's clothing.

[missattitude]

Well, I guess I can speak a little on what you siad, because I, am one who is gay and crossdress. But, I didn't become gay untill I was crossdressing more and more. In fact, I was dating chicks untill I really figured out that I was a crossdresser. Then I fall in love with a guy, which was my first guy I ever dated. Weird huh? I don't show either my crossdressing life or my gay life to most people. I look like your average 22 year old. Still in closet. We act girly the same reason YOU like to, because WE like too....

As far as little little girl things, that is just wierd.. And makeup,.... I am what you call a lazy crossdresser. Have a gootee and everything. I stilll like alot of my male side as well. I am what you call a unique and odd crossdresser. But I am what I am because I want to be what I am/.

Miss Thangz

[Audry]

I gave up trying to figure out all this years ago God knows I tried. I just go with my emotions when i get the Fem urge to merge.

[celtic.blue.eyes]

Well, I can't say that I can answer any with a qualififications, but I'll take a shot at #2 about the little girls clothing. Possibly as a young child they yearned to wear clothing like their female schoolmates, or be like their female schoolmates. Later on in life they are trying to satisfy that repressed desire. Something like the success of the new Ford Mustangs that are selling to the baby boomers that wanted one in when they were in high school, but couldn't afford at the time. Now they have the chance. Can't tell you why they wouldn't have outgrown it as adults though.+? Personally, I love the sophisticated office worker look.:happy:

[CaptLex]

Well, I guess I can speak a little on what you siad, because I, am one who is gay and crossdress. But, I didn't become gay untill I was crossdressing more and more. In fact, I was dating chicks untill I really figured out that I was a crossdresser. Then I fall in love with a guy, which was my first guy I ever dated. Weird huh? I don't show either my crossdressing life or my gay life to most people. I look like your average 22 year old. Still in closet. We act girly the same reason YOU like to, because WE like too....
Thanks for shedding some light on this. We hardly ever hear from gay male crossdressers, so it's good to finally get the other side of the story. I wonder if you guys are frowned on by most of the gay community for crossdressing (except for those that do it for entertainment purposes). In other words, do gay male crossdressers generally stay in the closet among other gay men?

[Ariel_TV]

About #1

We spend so much time saying that Sexual Orientation DOES NOT EQUAL Sexual Identity that we forget it ourselves? That we only apply it to defend Heterosexuality but forget it when a Gay person is crossdressing? Because for him also his sexual orientation has no impact on sexual Identity or the desire to crossdress. Why does a Gay man crossdress? Because he likes it , no more no less.

And for those who say that the 2 or 3 gay people they know don't cross dress , well you could say that about the Heterosexual people you know also . How many Hetero do you know in your life that don't crossdress? Probably most of them like the gay people you know . I am pretty i read somewhere that the percentage of Crossdresser who are gay is roughly the same has the percentage of gay in the general population.

So please remember that SEXUAL ORIENTATION NOT EQUALING SEXUAL IDENTITY goes both way .

[tekla west]

Oh golly gee, I sure do love a good essay test. (Really, it was my favorite part of school) Ok, you asked for it.

1. My experience is the exact opposite. Most gay men, are gay men because they like men, and man stuff, and eschew all that feminine crap. More often then not the CD types are bi, and the CD is part of the feminine sexual expression. Also, they tend to do - not gay men, but rather, other bi guys (trannychasers) who more often than not are trying not to think of it as a hot man on man sex encounter, but by going CD they hide, or at least obscure that part.

When I hang with my friend at his favorite place - which is the primo leather bar in SF - it’s a seething caldron of sexual perversion, decadence, and depravity. But I have never been hit on once, not even a little bit. So the moral of the story is, if you have to go to a leather bar, and your worried that you might yield to temptation and end up not being able to sit down for a week, go in drag, pink is perfect. You will be safe.


2. Age play is one part of sexual expression, a fantasy outlet that combines sex play with play acting. There are a lot of people who want to play at being the Mommy, or Daddy, or Daddy’s Bad Little Girl, or the Bad Babysitter, or the big brother and all those range of games. Pretty common really, though rarely talked about.

Oh, and look at all that little girl stuff. The velvet, the party dresses, the pinafore, the petticoats, the tights, rhumba pants. And its not combined with sex, its combined with age appropriate play - which, perhaps is even stranger, still. Its more about stringing beads, coloring books, dolls, and swinging on swing set type stuff. In fact, its very innocent in almost every aspect.

More importantly, I think that many who started Cding young, began with this type of clothing, and not club wear. It was from your sister and all. If you were attracted to this behavior at an early age, then these fashion images might well be the ones that stick in your head.

The most popular expression of this are the girls who do that “Catholic Schoolgirls in Disgrace” look at the clubs. Which is combining that ‘little girl’ deal, with a big time sexual expression.

I’ve meet several who do the LG thing, and they are very sweet and nice. They found their warm and happy place, that’s all.


3. Girls don’t always wear makeup, here in SF plenty never do, yet they are still doing the girl thing. When it comes to makeup, a little goes a long way too. More CDs get read because of the overdone makeup than any other reason.

[Marcia-B]

Most CDs are probably closet anyway so how can anyone say that there are more straight than gay or visa versa?Who has met them all?
I would agree most gays are not crossdressers.A gay guy who chatted to me and bought me a drink wanted to make it clear that he wasn't flirting,because he doesn't like girls.
It might not be true that MOST crossdressers are gay ,I think it is true that a lot of crossdressers are gay or like men/cds.
There are a lot of men who like crossdressers.Have you never seen transgender dating sites?
There are a lot of straight and a lot of gay crossdressers.

[Taffy]

Wow. Seems like I need to weigh in as I am an LG, an adult Little Girl, and make no bones about it.

First off, there are a number of us in this identifiable subculture of the CD community. The semi-annual LG Camp held at Rainbow Mountain attracts a full house and there is a burgeoning LG Camp in England.

I believe LGs are legitimate crossdressers as crossdressing is conventionally defined as dressing as the opposite gender. There is nothing in the definition that says a CD must dress as one of comparable age of the opposite sex would dress, correct? LGs merely choose to dress as would the opposite sex at an earlier age.

At the risk of being accused of flaming, let me recount some observations from the FAQs on my site:

What are the groupings of CDs?
Adult Crossdressers (CDs, or as LGs affectionally call them, BGs -- Big Girls), Adult Babies (ABs), Sissy Boys (SBs), and Adult Little Girls (LGs). There are, no doubt, additional subgroups, but these are the major groupings.

What are the differences between these groups?
Adult CDs usually dress in clothing appropriate to their physical age. This is the largest group of CDs and, if someone says "crossdresser" this is the group to which they are usually referring.

Adult Babies dress as infants, in diapers, etc. They either have or are seeking a "mommy" who will care for and dress them. Most of the ABs I have met, mostly through chat, have little desire to interact with others once their needs are met. Several ABs have described their experience as being sexual in nature.

Sissy Boys dress as little girls, however, their choice in clothing style seems to gravitate toward an exaggerated style, usually more risque than an LG would find appropriate for a given situation, often revealing underwear in public or in photographs. There is a thread running through the SB community of forced dressing or domination which I find deeply offensive. It is not uncommon to hear SBs comment on how humiliating it was to be forced by their mommy to wear thus and so in public. This humiliation is part of the experience. Additionally, SBs will often be consumed with interest in the primary and secondary sexual characteristics of girls, leading me to believe that being an SB is a sexual phenomenon at its core.

LGs, on the other hand, appear to want to avoid humiliation and want to be accepted as themselves. Characteristic of this is their choice of more modest clothing than that of SBs and an avoidance of emphasis on sexuality. Instead, the emphasis is much more on dressing and acting in the manner of a young girl of the age and era which they have chosen for themselves. In my case, I dress in the style of a 10-year old and play with dolls, specifically 18" softbodied vinyl playdolls.

Do LGs try to pass?
Actually one of the most significant differences between BGs and LGs is the issue of "passing." LGs are, except in extremely rare circumstances, incapable of passing as real little girls (RLGs). A blind man in a coal bin at midnight on a moonless night would instantly recognize that a 6' 200-pound individual is not an RLG. For this reason, and probably others, LGs need not even bother with passing.

I like to wear [whatever] -- am I an LG?
Not necessarily so, although you may be... Being an LG is usually more than a simple clothes fetish. LGs appear to take delight in the simple and innocent pleasures of childhood and the clothing is a useful and, to some, a mandatory part of the experience.

All LGs love frilly dresses, right?
This is one of the most common mistaken assumptions the non-LG community makes about LGs. While many LGs are fond of frilly dresses and the like, this is not a distinguishing characteristic of LGs. One of the LGs on LG Chat waggishly suggested a 1-10 frilliness scale on which to measure LGs, where 1 means an almost complete lack of frills and a 10 means "frilled to the max." On that scale, I am somewhere between 3 and 4. I know of several other LGs who are substantially less frilly than me, as well as a number who would peg the frill-meter with a solid 10.

What would a non-frilly LG wear?
This varies as does the personality of the LG, but it might include, non-frilly dresses, school, cheer, or girl scout/Brownie uniforms, casual clothes, etc. There are even non-frilly versions of communion and flowergirl dresses.

Isn't being an LG a form of pedophilia?
Sarah Jayne offered a direct response to this question which would describe most, if not all, of the LGs I have met at Camp, "LGs are interested in the packaging, not the contents of the package." I explained to my spoose, "A pedophile sees a young girl in a cute outfit and wonders what she would look like without the outfit. An LG sees the same little girl in the same outfit and wonders, 'Where can I get that outfit in my size?'"

How does it happen that one becomes an LG?
My theory is that LGs upon reaching that "magic age" when CDs discover their love of female clothing, rather than imprinting on their mother's/sister's/aunt's pantihose/girdle/stockings or bras, they imprint on the styles worn by their female peers. LGs, by and large, have no interest in breast forms, makeup, sexy clothing or the accoutrement associated with CDing.

LG Camp exemplifies this in that there is usually a tea party and a birthday party, replete with hats and party favors, ice cream and cake. There are games, coloring books and puzzles indoors, while outdoors there is tennis, hopscotch, swings and a merry-go-round.

I would be more than happy to answer any other questions.

Taffy

[cd_michelle_mpls]

taffy, thanks for all the details. i am not anywhere near an expert on the subject, but your distinctions were appreciated.

i agreed with jo ann's assessment of dressing like a young girl, it's a combination of things....i think.

i am a crossdresser, that's the easy part.

i am not sure if any infant/little girl interests i have is fueled by crossdressing, but i also have those. am i a little girl or a sissy boy? i think sissy boy. i want all the frills of being a baby/little girl, but i'm not interested in playing dolls, etc., i'd rather be controlled and/or humiliated by a GG.

i have no interest in children, i simply see dressing like a little girl (which i have never done) as an expression of two things i adore.

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

#1 - As mentioned, my expeirence is that the number of "gay CDs" (including DQs who do so for more than just performance) is proportionate to the percentage of gays in the overall population.

That said, gender bending is an established part of gay culture. Historically some gay men did crossdress as a way of announcing their sexuality, dating back to the English Molly clubs in the 1700s and similar practices first documented in American cities in the early 1800s. It probably was related to ideas of the days that homosexuals were "sexual inverts" (and therefore were "inverted" in other ways). Post WWII, having a drag performer was a way of signaling that a club served gay clintele, in a time when overt stating this would led to the club being shut down (probably after a raid where the owner and others would be arrested).

More recently, gender bending is probably more a part of the subversive humor that's common among oppressed groups. And in fact the sort of drag you'll see a Gay Pride events is usually done with humor and no pretense of passing. In some ways it's very similar to the sort of role reversals (often with satiric overtones) widely done under the guise of Halloween, Carnival, etc. And because out gays have already self-identified as not fitting the "het normal guy" stereotype, they're probably a lot more comfortable stepping outside of the gender stereotypes for masculinity and playing with gender.

There are effeminate gay men -- but that doesn't mean that they've got any interest in cross-dressing. Rather, in a sense they're just being adult janegirls. (And for what it's worth, there's a fair degree of "sissyphobia" within the gay community, so effemininate gays can take a lot of grief from some of their peers -- just as femme also don't get a lot respect from many in lesbian circles.)

Incidently, I think there are more DQs who do so for reasons besides performance that will fess up to doing so -- precisely because saying they're expressing a "feminine side" can be met with the same sort of disapproval that straight CDs can experience from other hetrosexuals. Saying "it's just performance" is sort of the equivalent of hetro CDs who prefer to think of it as "just a fetish" because admitting to gender issues is a lot scarier. (Not saying there aren't folks for whom it is just a fetish, or just performance -- only that some folks are in denial about their full range of motivations.)

#2 - I'll defer to Taffy and other LGs who may be here, but my observation is that LG seems to be a more extreme version of age regression that I see in a number of MTFs and some FTMs. (To me it's significant that there are commonly made references to being "girls" (and "bois") rather than "women" and "men.) Men and women have mortgages to pay, kids to feed, etc. and girls (and "bois") just wanna have fun.... So take a it step further, back to being a kid and not having a care in the world. It certainly is a stylized-version of girlhood -- the costumes favored by LGs (at least those I've seen) probably haven't been worn by actual little girls since the Victorian era. And again, that may tie into the fantasy of an idyllic childhood.

#3 - As mentioned: 1) Women don't always wear make-up either. 2) Make-up isn't a huge interest for some CDs. 3) Some folks aren't skilled at doing their own make-up. And even if one is, on a practical level, if one is dressing around the house, one can get dressed in a matter of minutes, but doing full make-up takes at least a half-hour (plus time afterwards to clean-up).

[tightsgirl]

Based on some of the comments I've seen, I'm wondering how many here have really taken the time to get to know many gay people, gay people that crossdress, "little girls" and guys who just want to wear dresses, etc. but no makeup? I have and I've pretty much seen it all. It comes as no surprise to those here who know me that I accept everyone for who they choose to be or how they choose to present themselves to their friends and to the world at large. Simply put, I've taken the time to widen out in my getting to know people and what I've found is that people are just people after all, despite what they appear to be to others. How could I feel they are any "weirder " than myself. That would kind of be like the "pot" calling the "kettle" black, no? Anyway, by taking the time to get to know them, I've "demystified" some of these CD mysteries for myself at least.:happy: Ericka


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Taffy]

#2 - I'll defer to Taffy and other LGs who may be here, but my observation is that LG seems to be a more extreme version of age regression that I see in a number of MTFs and some FTMs. (To me it's significant that there are commonly made references to being "girls" (and "bois") rather than "women" and "men.) Men and women have mortgages to pay, kids to feed, etc. and girls (and "bois") just wanna have fun.... So take a it step further, back to being a kid and not having a care in the world. It certainly is a stylized-version of girlhood -- the costumes favored by LGs (at least those I've seen) probably haven't been worn by actual little girls since the Victorian era. And again, that may tie into the fantasy of an idyllic childhood.

Excellent points. The goal of most LGs I've met or chatted with, including myself, is capturing their "inner child" although that child is of the opposite sex. LGs tend, in role, to be asexual, so is is more like capturing the other gender's inner child.

While attempting to come to an understanding of what motivated me as an LG, I read The Girl Within, by Emily Hancock. In the course of interviews with women about their lives, one woman mentioned that there was a time in her youth when she felt as though she was totally in control of her life. This was not "real" control, for she was only eight or nine-years old, but the perception by her than she could do anything she wanted, become whoever she wanted and enter any career.

This thought was so intriguing to Ms. Hancock that she re-interviewed each of her subjects again and discovered that this was a common thread. Each of the women, upon probing, acknowledged the same feeling. In one case, it was something like, "This is the best it will ever be and from this day forward it is downhill..." Furthermore, each of them was convinced that they could not recreate that time as it was innocence born of naiveté.

My premise is it is precisely this feeling that LGs desire. In addition to the beautiful clothing, this sense of innocent empowerment is so heady, so refreshing and so centering that it becomes the focus. This does not happen immediately, nor does it happen for all, but for those who embrace it, the comfort it produces is the elixir itself.

As to the clothing styles selected by LGs, I believe it is varies by individual, pegged by what was imprinted during that magic time. I was asked by a number of prospective Campers what do LGs wear at LG Camp and replied:

The fashion sense of LGs ranges from the very frilly (think square dance dresses or Shirley Temple) to the not-frilly-at-all and you can expect to see LGs wearing party dresses, school, Brownie and cheerleader uniforms and all manner of clothing appropriate to either the occasion or the whim of the individual. For example, in ballet class you will find ballet outfits of all types, with and without tutus. Ballet slippers do make dance class a whole lot more comfortable.

For me, that magic imprinting period was the late 1950s, so I am extremely partial to the styles of that era, reminescent of Chatty Cathy.

Taffy

[MarinaTwelve200]

Well, I sure am pleased with the responses---They have given me a bit more of the aspects to think about. I am also glad that ya'll took it in the right way and realized that I was not out to criticize or insult anybody:D

I was hoping though that a few of you would ADD to the list of mysteries. Those three were all I could think of at the moment I wrote the thread.

A I mentioned above, I personally have the kind of mind that bugs me about things I dont know about, or at least. dont have a possible or even prospective explaination for. Thats the curse of being a scientist, I just cant let such matters drop and accept things for what they are. I envy folks who can do that sometimes.

Dont let this post stop you from commenting, I would like to here more of your comments on those things that mystify me and others about this facinating subject of CD.

[MsJanessa]

This is what is a mystery to me:

Here in the south we have a saying for someone who has it made/has life easy. "you've got a bird nest on the ground!"

It's a mystery to me why so many CDs who have accepting SOs promptly begin treating that bird nest on the ground like an outhouse.

I'm puzzled as to how your comment addresses the questions raised in this thread----sounds like you have some serious issues with your SO----------but to answer the first question in the thread about gay crossdressers while it is true that many crossdressers are heterosexual it is also true that many of them (including Me) are gay or bisexual----it is also true is that most homosexuals are not crossdressers---also most heterosexuals are not crossdressers---as far as the general population goes we are a relatively rare breed.

[Fionax]

Hi Marina,

There's a mite too much thinking and worrying going on there, do n't you feel?

Gay couples usually are butch and bitch...........so to complete the illusion why not dress the part? OTOH I have heard that the majority of gay relationships are one night stands, so for most it is hardly worth the bother to dress up, especially if you can pull a guy without.

Those that dress as little girls, [does nobody dress as little boys ?] must surely have a fetish: no different from wanting to wear lycra or latex: though here I guess we are treading close to whether CDing is too.

Wearing female clothing may be totally satisfying to some, all the more so if they are short of time, have no mirror, or a worried about the incomplete removal of make-up. Wearing make-up and a wig is pretty pointless if asleep in a nightie after all.

Just keep on teasing away at it.

Fi

[CaptLex]

I have heard that the majority of gay relationships are one night stands
Ouch! Generalizations like that hurt. :raisedeyebrow:


Those that dress as little girls, [does nobody dress as little boys ?] must surely have a fetish.
I've never heard of it, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist. The cowboys, bikers and uniform fetishes I can understand, but I think little boy ones would probably make me squeamish. :puke:

[Jenni]

There are some really good responses here, and I'm sure most of us can learn from them. As for the little girl look, I can't claim to have a particular liking for it. I do always choose clothing designed for teen girls, though. I won't buy anything from the women's dept., mainly because I prefer the colors and styles associated with teen girls shops, like Limited Too or Delia's.

I can't really be too sure why I am this way, but I suspect it's probably due to the fact that when I started cd'ing I always wore my sister's clothes, and she was a teenager at the time. That experience probably imprinted a desire for that clothing style into my cd'ing.

jen:2c:

[Casey Morgan]

Since we've been invited to add our own mysteries, I've got one. If we're all supposed to accept who we are and be who we are, why do we insist that people conform to certain ideals? "You can't be TS silly, if you were TS you'd act like this instead of that." "You know, if you were serious about this you would..." That kind of claptrap. Why do we struggle to break out of society's prisons yet work so diligently to build our own?

[Kerry Owens]

One comment on the wearing of makeup....I'm allergic to most of the stuff on the market, and the truely hypoallergenic stuff is way beyond my meager budget.(honestly I'd rather have a buying spree in Barnes and Nobles, than one at a makeup counter! Ask Lawren!)

[helanta]

I had the privilege, being a doubter about whether it is 'me'...to witness and experience the makeover by Teela.,.....what I found was the release of becoming,in a short time,that ephemeral feeling of feminism....the softness,the subtle easing of attitude.
Observing others I was impressed by,with a total makeover,they changed from the scruffy male into the gentle elegance of femininity.....everything changed,not superficially but movement and attitude as well.
From a doubter and long time mans man with a minor bdsm leaning I am now an avid crossdresser . The wonderous lady who facilitated this glorious release might do it for others....ask me and I will,reluctantly,tell you where to find her

[janedoe311]

One comment on the wearing of makeup....I'm allergic to most of the stuff on the market, and the truely hypoallergenic stuff is way beyond my meager budget.(honestly I'd rather have a buying spree in Barnes and Nobles, than one at a makeup counter! Ask Lawren!)

Check these out. Their products are great, do not know about their cosmetics. If you get some give me a im.

I have allergies and nearly everything I put on my face causes some problems, eyes will get red itch etc.

http://www.equinox-products.com/naturesimage.htm

Found from http://www.feingold.org/ that man made dyes, flavorings and scents are a real problem. He found they behave like drugs in some people.) If my kids get artifical food dyes and flavors they become a different person, 8 year old becomes autistic and bangs her head on the wall. It is the artifical vanilla in candy and chocolate that makes kids hyper not the sugar. At least that is what we found with our kids. Know anone with dark around their eyes it is called allergy shiners. they have allergies could be foods or food additives, see it in trouble kids all the time.

You get what you pay for the most foods and cosmetics use the man made stuff.

[Kerry Owens]

Hmmm it's a thought, they do have make up in the wonderful little natural food store, not far from us. I already go there to get my favorite soap, "Bee and Flower Sandalwood" so, why I didn't think of trying the makeup?
Probably because I wanted to get over to Barnes and Noble!

[ReginaK]

Those that dress as little girls, [does nobody dress as little boys ?] must surely have a fetish: no different from wanting to wear lycra or latex: though here I guess we are treading close to whether CDing is too.

Possibly because there is nothing that great about being a little boy. Being a little girl would fun. The dresses, the makeup, the dollhouses. All that cool stuff you never got while growing up.

[CaptLex]

Possibly because there is nothing that great about being a little boy. Being a little girl would fun. The dresses, the makeup, the dollhouses. All that cool stuff you never got while growing up.
Speak for yourself . . . I would have given anything to be allowed to be the little boy I knew I was. But don't cry for me, I've made up for it: the toys, the cars, the action figures, etc. Although I also liked dollhouses (still do, in fact) - I think it's the decorator in me. :heehee:

[GG Vanya]

I'm puzzled as to how your comment addresses the questions raised in this thread----sounds like you have some serious issues with your SO----------but to answer the first question in the thread about gay crossdressers while it is true that many crossdressers are heterosexual it is also true that many of them (including Me) are gay or bisexual----it is also true is that most homosexuals are not crossdressers---also most heterosexuals are not crossdressers---as far as the general population goes we are a relatively rare breed.


Well perhaps the following will resolve your puzzlement:

Im sure I can think of a few more things that puzzle me, but these will do for now.---- Do you have any personal CD mysyeries too? or Any comments that may be of help?

This was the last paragraph of the initial post to this thread. Puzzled solved for ya now?

And nope, my post had absolutely nothing to do with any, much less serious, issues with my husband. My husband is a member here (NIKE) and I'm sure if you ask him he'll tell you if there are any.

To be honest, I'd say Trudi and I have less "issues" than the majority of the other members of this forum..excluding KathyGG and her SO. My frustration comes from knowing just how good a relationship *can* be between a CD and his wife, and then seeing how many wives struggle to accept while the CD is plowing full speed ahead.

[Margie]

Hi Marina,
I go along with all your topics except for the last. Sometimes I just don't feel like wearing makeup, and my wife is the same way. I really don't feel like it's anything to do with my male self, just don't like all the effort sometimes!

[tekla west]

Vanya, you had two advantages that most do not. One, you knew about it (the CD) very early in the relationship, long before huge emotional commitment was made. Two, you were not exactly comming out of a "keep your eyes closed and hope he gets it done soon" very strictly vanilla -and vanilla only, setting. Both help.

[loki_uk]

To address your points.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? I have yet to meet a or talk with a cd who likes to dress as a little girl. I would find this quite disturbing if they did.



Hmm if you saw a load of GG's dressed as schoolgirls on a hen night, would you be disturbed as well ?

I do sometimes dress up as a nurse, school girl, super nanny etc, it's just role play and if someone fancies me they fancy an adult not a child so I don't see why it should be disturbing

Plenty of people think trannies look disturbing, it doesn't mean we do anything wrong though...

[Brianna Lovely]

This thread sure did generate a lot of responses.

As for number one (and I'm sure there are a lot of gurls with much more experience than myself) of about 200 gay men that I know, I'm a CD and I met a man last night that is a CD, but would not talk about it in public.
I've had 1 (that's right, one) gay man want to take me out to dinner etc., with me being "dressed".

As to why I'm gay and CD? I guess my dressing is more about trying to express my inner feelings, I chose CDing, because it "feels" right.
Now, if I could just get ALL people to look at me, no matter how I'm dressed, and know that I'm a beautiful PERSON, my life would be much easier.

Number three, I guess I'm just like any other GG in that respect. Where I'm going, what I'm doing and how I feel, determines how much, if any, makeup I wear.

[tekla west]

Things that are a mystery to me are:

1. Where is the CD rule book that so many people seem to know by heart, and how come I didn't get a copy. Hell, I never even got a memo that it was coming out.

2. I don't get this about CD (but I know a lot of other groups it works with also). Why don't more people have a political world-view that complements their lifestyles? They match the shoes to the purse, but don't match their public values to what they privately know about life itself. Why?

3. Why do so many CDs seeming want to look like the Queen Mum (or my mother going to the Moose Lodge (circa 1969) for New Years Eve)?

4. Where does some guy who gets off wearing panties and a bra with fake boobs get off telling someone else they are weird because they like to dress like a nice sweet 7 year old little girl in her party dress with lots and lots of lace, or even an infant for that matter? This one does blow me away. Really, your 45 and are going to tell me that dressing like a 16 year old is OK and normal but dressing like a 6 year old isn't. As for dressing like a little girl, don't knock it till ya tried it. There are several places online that make clothes for this venture, so its can't be all that offbeat.

5. Must drag queens have entourages? Is the little chubby girl dragging all three full suitcases while the five boys swish on through the bar each carrying one wig each mandatory also?

6. Why does the guy who keeps hitting on you in the bar (always on a night you think you look like hell, on the good nights they can't be found) keep insisting he is straight when its clear to a blind guy at 50 yards that you are not exactly all that much the "opposite" sex?

[Kimkandy]

Things that are a mystery to me are:
1. Where is the CD rule book that so many people seem to know by heart, and how come I didn't get a copy. Hell, I never even got a memo that it was coming out.

You must have missed the :devil: meeting...

Kim

:dom: :hugs: :tongueout

[Taffy]

As for dressing like a little girl, don't knock it till ya tried it. There are several places online that make clothes for this venture, so its can't be all that offbeat.

Interesting anecdote: When I was getting ready to go to the first LG Camp I decided I needed a nice dress so, being the engineer, I put out an RFQ (Request for Quote) on one of the Usenet newsgroups. Bill Jones, the noted costumer and makeup artist in SF saw my post and checked with his friends in the gender community to see if they knew anything about LGs. The responses were, "We've heard they exist, but have never seen one in person..." So, yup, LGs are out there, but if most CDs are in the "closet" most LGs are way in the back on the tippy top shelf of that closet.

Oh, and Bill created a gorgeous dress for me in fantastic burgundy velvet.

Taffy

Taffy

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

Gay couples usually are butch and bitch

Umm...no.


...........so to complete the illusion why not dress the part?

Uh no. What part of "gays are attracted to masculinity" did you miss? Effeminate gay men actually face a lot of discrimination within the gay community. The only gay man I know who femmes it up for a partner is a drag queen who goes out with tranny chasers (and the chasers always seem to want to believe that she's on hormones -- so that they're "really not gay" since supposedly she's a TS not a DQ).


OTOH I have heard that the majority of gay relationships are one night stands

And no...

Maybe a little a less trafficking in stereotypes and the little more first-hand knowledge might be a Good Thing, yes?


I've never heard of it, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist. The cowboys, bikers and uniform fetishes I can understand, but I think little boy ones would probably make me squeamish. :puke:

The closest I've seen are the FTM "bois" who dress/act like teen/college-aged guys. But much like LGs, part of the appeal seems to be both the "not a care in the world" aspect and "best time of your life" aspect. Both of which are equally grass-is-greener thinking as for LGs.


Is the little chubby girl dragging all three full suitcases while the five boys swish on through the bar each carrying one wig each mandatory also?

That's article 21(c) of Fag Hag subsection 4(a) of the Drag Queen Imperial Decrees. :D

[Angela E.]

Since we've been invited to add our own mysteries, I've got one. If we're all supposed to accept who we are and be who we are, why do we insist that people conform to certain ideals? "You can't be TS silly, if you were TS you'd act like this instead of that." "You know, if you were serious about this you would..." That kind of claptrap. Why do we struggle to break out of society's prisons yet work so diligently to build our own?

Because,like it or not, we are products of that society.It`s hard to escape a lifetime of conditioning,even when you are as much outsiders to that society as we are.The current state of affairs seems to be that it`s OK to be gay as long as you don`t cd.I think crossdressing(gay or str8,cd,tv,ts,tg)is MUCH less accepted by society than almost anything else(except in the case of female to male cd`ing.I think thats cause we live in a male dominated society where it`s seen as a step up for a woman but a step down for a man)Oh well that`s my:2c: -Angela E.

[Deanna2]

I've got no comment on the first two points, but why is there confusion on the wearing or not wearing of makeup?

From a GG's point of view they have a choice of (not) wearing makeup either at work or socially. I'll bet there are many who don't wear it just hanging round home. Why not the same attitude for CD's?

I love wearing femme gear and occasionally I'll wear makeup and it gives me a pleasurable feeling. However, if I don't wear makeup I don't feel bad about it.

[AyJay]

I don't wear makeup, and even shun moisturiser. I don't know if it is trying to cling to the masculine, or if it is that I'm afraid it will be a step too far.

[JamieTG]

Hi all. These are a few of my thoughts:
1. Many gay men who are female impersonators crossdress only for their performances. Its their profession and they work hard to perfect the most believable illusion of whatever celebrity they are impersonating. However most say they don't wear women's clothes other than for performing.
2. I can totally understand those who cd as a little girl. I think many of us dress the way we feel on the inside rather than our actual age. I think of myself as a teenage girl and junior fashions is what I enjoy. Its easy to see the attraction to the "little girl" look with lacy frilly dresses, petticoats, ribbons & bows, and maryjanes.
3. I like some makeup which I wear even as a guy but the clothes are much more important to me. Then again I don't go out trying to pass. I prefer the androgonous look rather than creating the full illusion of a woman. I very rarely dress totally with wig and full makeup.
Jamie

[MsJanessa]

Well perhaps the following will resolve your puzzlement:

Im sure I can think of a few more things that puzzle me, but these will do for now.---- Do you have any personal CD mysyeries too? or Any comments that may be of help?

This was the last paragraph of the initial post to this thread. Puzzled solved for ya now?

And nope, my post had absolutely nothing to do with any, much less serious, issues with my husband. My husband is a member here (NIKE) and I'm sure if you ask him he'll tell you if there are any.

To be honest, I'd say Trudi and I have less "issues" than the majority of the other members of this forum..excluding KathyGG and her SO. My frustration comes from knowing just how good a relationship *can* be between a CD and his wife, and then seeing how many wives struggle to accept while the CD is plowing full speed ahead.
I can't help but notice that in this thread and in others that you have posted in, you seem to focus on this theme about some crossdressers being selfish and demanding on their wives---of course that's true---some crossdressers are selfish and demanding on their wives---maxing out the credit cards to buy femme clothes, dressing at inappropiate times, not honoring their spouse's request not to dress around them etc----unfortunatly some crossdressers mistake a wife's tolerence of dressing as not only an acceptance of it, but as embracing it to the extant that they revel in it and enjoy it as much as the cd does. big mistake and can cause a lot of problems. My ex knew about My dressing very early in our relationship--years before we were married---she actually sewed some clothes for me and seemed to not only tolerate it but accept and enjoy it. Eventually though it became apparent that she really wasn't comfortable with it, so I was careful to keep it separate from her---dressing when I was away traveling and if at home, when she was out. After 12 years of marraige we divorced for unrelated reasons(my choice not hers) I still remember her telling me that if I didn't give her what she wanted for a settlement, she was going to "out" my crossdressing by testifying about it in court. This was 17 years ago and I was a professional in a small town in rural Maine---I was much more sensitive to that kind of threat than I would be today. So my take on "selfish and demanding" is a little different than yours might be. Btw, after I got over the "sticker shock" of the divorce, I gave her what she wanted---it was reasonable and I had no problem with it---but her attempt to blackmail me left a bad taste in my mouth. Finally one major thing I've noticed that although some T-Girls may be selfish and demanding, there seems to be a much larger percentage of so-called "normal" men who are more selfish and demanding----and violent to boot. My observation is that most cds are so glad to find an accepting wife that they tend to treat them better than the average "straight--ie non TG" male. Just my personal take on the "cd mystery" that you have raised about birds crapping in their nest.

[Robin Leigh]

1. When I used to have sex with gay men, I was never en femme, although I did usually fantasize that I was. I felt that most of my gay lovers would not have been into it. I have been in lingerie, lipstick & nail polish with a few bi guys, though.

2. I must admit that when I first heard about Little Girls, I did think it was a bit weird. But after a bit of reading & cogitation, I realized that they were really no more weird than any other kind of crossdresser. As an erotic CDer myself, I find it a bit hard to understand, but it sounds like they have fun. :)

I have fantasized about being dressed as an LG, but I don't think I'd like to try it for real. As for LGs not wearing any makeup, why not? Some little GGs love to wear makeup when permitted, even if it is only nailpolish & a little lipstick. I know my sisters & cousins certainly did.

The closest to dressing as an LG that I've ever done was in highschool drama. I once wore a pink tutu in a "burlesque ballet", and when I was 12 I played an 8 year old French girl in a play produced by the French department. I wore my sister's pink polka-dot dress & pink panties, and a pair of pantyhose with white shoes.

One LG fantasy I have I call "A year for a day". Imagine spending two or three weeks "growing up" as a girl. Each year of your childhood becomes a day. So on the first day you behave like a baby, wear a diaper, use very limited language, etc. The next day or two you act like a toddler. By the end of the first week, you can go to "school" in a nice uniform. Towards the end of the second week, you're a teenager, wearing odd clothing combinations & too much makeup. :) As the grande finale, you go to the "graduation" prom.

3. CDing without makeup? Only when I wear a nightie to bed, & even then I often wear a little bit of lippy. :) I love makeup. I only wear women's clothes so I don't look so funny wearing makeup. :D (Not really!)

Robin

[Taffy]

I have fantasized about being dressed as an LG, but I don't think I'd like to try it for real. As for LGs not wearing any makeup, why not? Some little GGs love to wear makeup when permitted, even if it is only nailpolish & a little lipstick. I know my sisters & cousins certainly did.

Sure, LGs may wear lipstick and nailpolish, but it is something "special" -- something really girly, rather than makeup as a fundamental part of dressing as is often the case when "passing' is the goal. There is certainly no prohibition on LGs wearing makeup, but the goal is different, so I have seen a lot of Cindarella "peel off" pink nails, a bunch of sweet flavored lipsticks, and the ever present, cloyingly sweet scents of Cotton Candy and similar spritz-on children's body sprays and shampoos.

On the other hand, I have only seen a very few LGs with the full makeup the girls in pageants trowel on, where the goal appears to be looking older and more mature. If anything, LGs generally want to feel younger and makeup is seen as "play" rather than a presentation requirement.

An anecdote: The first two LG Camps were held coincident with the regular CD weekends. While the BGs were getting makeovers and looking over the usual collection of forms and lingerie, the LGs were having a birthday party and craft class. I believe we made lanyards at the first Camp and Christmas ornaments at the second. At the second Camp a psychologist presented her thesis that "all crossdressing is sexual" to a packed audience of BGs while the LGs were off on the screen porch having root beer floats and playing board games. She later came out to discover why we had not sat through her presentation and was confronted by a real-life counter-example to her thesis. She did not hang around...

Taffy

[ReginaK]

I've got no comment on the first two points, but why is there confusion on the wearing or not wearing of makeup?

From a GG's point of view they have a choice of (not) wearing makeup either at work or socially. I'll bet there are many who don't wear it just hanging round home. Why not the same attitude for CD's?

I love wearing femme gear and occasionally I'll wear makeup and it gives me a pleasurable feeling. However, if I don't wear makeup I don't feel bad about it.

I'd say the reason CDs don't have the same attitude is because makeup is so important to completing the illusion. If a GG doesn't wear makeup, she still looks like a GG. If a crossdresser doesn't wear makeup, unless they're really good looking, they end up just looking like a guy in a dress.

[iwearpanties]

wow so many responces here and many ideas on it as for me i grew into my cd but i dont pass nor seek too pass . i guess that gose back to my seeing and reading Domnation magazine with male so called forced dressing which i find bogus most of us whio seek it are already cd"s ... as for the little girl look it could as simple as a school girl dressing bows n lace n stockings or also as big babbies that grow up so be sissy grils .. we all enjoy diffrent reasons for dressing and that makes us whos each one of us is in are lifess:2c:

[Robin Leigh]

Sure, LGs may wear lipstick and nailpolish, but it is something "special" -- something really girly, rather than makeup as a fundamental part of dressing as is often the case when "passing' is the goal. There is certainly no prohibition on LGs wearing makeup, but the goal is different, so I have seen a lot of Cindarella "peel off" pink nails, a bunch of sweet flavored lipsticks, and the ever present, cloyingly sweet scents of Cotton Candy and similar spritz-on children's body sprays and shampoos.

On the other hand, I have only seen a very few LGs with the full makeup the girls in pageants trowel on, where the goal appears to be looking older and more mature. If anything, LGs generally want to feel younger and makeup is seen as "play" rather than a presentation requirement.
Thanks for your reply, Taffy. What you say makes sense. I expected that LGs would be much more interested in sweet lipsticks & other "toy" makeup than women's makeup.

My 3 sisters loved playing dress-ups. Of course, in this type of dressing, the goal is to appear grown-up, usually. When Mum became an Avon lady, she had tons of makeup samples & my sisters were in heaven. :)


An anecdote: The first two LG Camps were held coincident with the regular CD weekends. While the BGs were getting makeovers and looking over the usual collection of forms and lingerie, the LGs were having a birthday party and craft class. I believe we made lanyards at the first Camp and Christmas ornaments at the second. At the second Camp a psychologist presented her thesis that "all crossdressing is sexual" to a packed audience of BGs while the LGs were off on the screen porch having root beer floats and playing board games. She later came out to discover why we had not sat through her presentation and was confronted by a real-life counter-example to her thesis. She did not hang around...

Beautiful, Taffy! :D

It must be tough being an LG. But I guess that it not being sexual & you not needing to go out en femme & mix with the general public does make some things easier. However, I expect that LGs hold GG little girls in the highest esteem and that it must be very painful for you when people accuse you of having perverse desires towards them. It must take a lot of courage & belief in yourself to cope with things like that. :thumbsup:

It's interesting that nobody's commented yet on my "Year for a Day" fantasy. Maybe it's just too weird (or scary) for most of us. :)

:hugs:

Robin

[tekla west]

I would, but like the Ents, it all seemed 'so hasty'. I would rather take at lest a day at each, if not a week. Still, I have to give it up to you for telling the truth. A whole lot of people who responded in the negitive I'm sure have LG panties somewhere in thier stash.

And I'm down with the LG deal. Its not me. But I like it just the same. Its so cute. Its just too bad that LGs, grow up to be BBs.

[Taffy]

Ah, Robin, but the Year for a Day effort requires one to grow older, but most LGs stay the same age forever. For example, I am always 10 and never get any older. Hence the last line in my signature -- I choose to never exercise the option of growing up.

[jenniferfvs]

Hi Marina, Point by point:

1. I know a lot of gay guys. In my sphere of frineds, not one of them is a CD. I think it is a small minority.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? Most CDs start as little girls. Some may never grow up and feel that they are little girls but not attracted to little girls. Many of us do not mature in the same normal proccess as GGs do. I'm 54 and haven't grown up yet.

3. CDing without makeup? Not everybody is turned on by completely being dressed as a woman. To an ax carrying, bearded, lumberjack with a shoe fettish for example, high heels may be all that is needed. That's just one example. It could be a teddy, a bra, panties, stockings, skirts, dresses, slips, a purse, jewelry, etc. Maybe you are thinking in terms of the complete, perfect passing woman. Everyone is different and it may be only one facet that turns some one on.

[jenniferfvs]

As a scientist you may be dissappointed to find that CDs are like snow flakes. No two are exactly alike. There are no simple cut and dried answers.

[Fallen Angel]

No 1 I my self go to a gay comunity and yes there are the male and fem side to there partnerships but ive never seen one dressed as a female.

No2 I think thats something that has nothing to do with cding at all and is a derversity all its own

No 3 there are many that are just as content wearing heels to panties as those who dress fully.I have a close freind that just wears purfume and has no desire to dress at all but still feels femy

[Delila]

Sorry if I repeat anything but... The reason that I think that people associate gay and crossdressing is because of drag queens. I would hope that any self respecting cder knows the dif between a cder and a drag queen. Namely drag queens over dress not trying to look like women so much as just looking sparkly. My thought on why people like to dress like little girls is that they are at a different stage of their mental age with cding E.G. a person who has just started cding will be growing from a young age and dressing appropriatly. As for the makeup part. How many women do you know that wear makeup every day? If you are truly feminine I would have to say that you would act like an average female and wear full makeup when it is appropriate not every day. Sorry if my opinions are unwelcome.

[Robin Leigh]

I would, but like the Ents, it all seemed 'so hasty'. I would rather take at lest a day at each, if not a week. Still, I have to give it up to you for telling the truth. A whole lot of people who responded in the negitive I'm sure have LG panties somewhere in thier stash.

And I'm down with the LG deal. Its not me. But I like it just the same. Its so cute. Its just too bad that LGs, grow up to be BBs.
It's not me, either, but I do enjoy the fantasy of a time-compressed girlhood from time to time. I suppose that means I have a slight taste for Forced Feminization. :) As you say, a day is probably too short, but who has the time to do this properly? :)



Ah, Robin, but the Year for a Day effort requires one to grow older, but most LGs stay the same age forever. For example, I am always 10 and never get any older. Hence the last line in my signature -- I choose to never exercise the option of growing up.
Yes, my Year for a Day fantasy was more aimed at the BGs. I expected that you LGs would "drop out" when you hit your desired age.

As an "erotic" CDer, I wouldn't be comfortable dressed as an LG (although it was fun when I was in those school plays). But I think I could cope with interacting with LGs. I'm very good at reading fairy tales. :)

Sometimes I fantasize that I'm a little girl dressing up as a big girl. :devil:

:hugs:

Robin

[Robin Leigh]

My thought on why people like to dress like little girls is that they are at a different stage of their mental age with cding E.G. a person who has just started cding will be growing from a young age and dressing appropriatly.
I don't think it's as simple as that, though. Consider: In one respect, Taffy enjoys identifying as a ten year old girl, but OTOH, she expresses herself in a mature & sophisticated adult manner. She is certainly one of the more skilled communicators we have on our forum.

Before we start making up theories to explain LGs, maybe we should ask them what they think. :)

:hugs:

Robin

[Beth-GDB]

I'll just add my random thoughts about the original questions.

1: I'm not aware that CDing is more common among gay people than among straight people.

2: MY personal inclination on adults CDing as pre-teen girls is that they probably share some of the underlying motivations as adults who are into infantilism, although not to the same degree as the dedicated infantilists.

For my own part I've bought teen girls clothes for myself in the past, mostly because I look old enough to have teenaged children of my own. At the time I went through that period of my buying habits I thought it would look less odd if I appeared to be buying clothes for a child rather than adult women's clothes. These days I just buy whatever I want and rarely waste any time thinking about what other people in the store might think. There's also the aspect that my own memories of realising that I was genuinely interested in wearing femme clothes stem from my early teen years and maybe there is some aspect of "recapturing the lost time and opportunities" of my past. Even to this day I often daydream about "what might have been" if I'd had the courage and support at the time to come out back then. I went to a coed highschool for several years that had manditory uniforms and while the girls uniform wasn't what would be considered particularly cute, I still would have liked the chance to wear it.

3: Makeup. I don't have the first clue about doing makeup properly, and since I currently don't go out dressed I don't have any real need for makeup, but getting some lessons on applying makeup is on my list of things to do. Why? Because I don't want to look obviously like a man in drag if I do go out dressed. I fully accept that I'll never look completely convincing, but as long as I can look good enough to not attract excessive attention, I'd be very happy with that. There's no way I could accomplish that with no makeup.

[Taffy]

My thought on why people like to dress like little girls is that they are at a different stage of their mental age with cding, e.g., a person who has just started CDing will be growing from a young age and dressing appropriately.

Hmmm, methinks it is a bit more complicated than that and may have to do with the environment in which the individual is raised. For me, childhood (http://www.geocities.com/FashionAvenue/1492/his_story/history1.html) was not a particularly pleasant experience. What I observed as a girl's existence appeared as more desirable and more fun than mine, and girl's clothing was certainly a whole lot prettier than boy's. I did not see an adult woman's existence as desirable, nor did I find their clothing interesting.

I tend to believe that CDs have an inborn tendency toward crossdressing that manifests itself at a particular "magic" age and, depending upon the cues present at that time, they will imprint on that which is perceived as desireable. If they see older females as a positive model, they will embrace the style of clothing worn by those models, which explains why a lot of CDers "dress like their mothers". OTOH, if the positive models are younger or of the same age, they MAY choose the LG path. I believe this "imprinting" is significant and occurs during a fairly narrow window.

A number of LGs I have discussed this with thought they should "dress" their physical age and had become very unhappy BGs, feeling somehow out of touch with who they really were. Some of them drifted into the sissy community only to be repelled by the concept of dressing as a form of discipline, i.e., how can doing something that feels so good really be a form of punishment when you want to do it anyway. "Toss me into that briar patch..." Each of them managed to make it to the point where they recognized that dressing on their own, rather than being forced, and dressing in the styles to which they were imprinted was exactly what was needed. I, for example, love school uniforms, but the uniforms tend to be the styles common to the 1950s. Another LG is imprinted on the school uniforms of the 1980s and finds the styles I love "dated", but then she would have been at the "magic age" when this imprinting occurred in the 1980s.

As to whether dressing one's age is something one "grows" into, I am not certain. I do not find any increased fascination with adult styles over time and walk by Victoria's Secret with a yawn, rather repelled by the display of provocative lingerie. While I like cheer uniforms, I love the older, more modest ones and won't look twice at the newer, more adult styles.


Sorry if my opinions are unwelcome.

Opinions are always welcome. Absolutely no one has a monopoly on either the truth or observations on reality.

[Taffy]

I don't think it's as simple as that, though. Consider: In one respect, Taffy enjoys identifying as a ten year old girl, but OTOH, she expresses herself in a mature & sophisticated adult manner. She is certainly one of the more skilled communicators we have on our forum.

One of the characteristics shown by girls I admired while growing up was a fascination with language and their desire to speak both correctly and with thought. The adults I was exposed to were duplicitous and evasive. An intellectually precocious 10-year old girl of the late 1950s is my model and, to her, expressing oneself clearly was paramount. How better to describe the beauty of a doll or her outfit than to use proper English and the correct terms? How can you have a tea party without knowing which fork or spoon to use? How would you greet the Queen?

Some LGs, perhaps because they came to recognize who they were only after going through the sissy or AB (adult baby) community, speak in toddler talk. I came to recognize who I was relatively late in life, with no prior exposure to these communities. Additionally, a number of LGs attempt to separate their personality into two sides, the male which they refer to as "Daddy" or "Big Brother" and their female side which they refer to by name. I believe this is fundamentally unhealthy and have said so often, much to the consternation of some LGs. Integrating both aspects of one's personality into a coherent whole leads to a richer and more fulfilling life, or at least it has in mine...

[Taffy]

MY personal inclination on adults CDing as pre-teen girls is that they probably share some of the underlying motivations as adults who are into infantilism, although not to the same degree as the dedicated infantilists.

Perhaps. I know some LGs who claim to have both and LG and an AB (infantilist) side. I have looked pretty thoroughly and don't find much to lead me to believe I have such within myself. Most likely it is due to the lack of any positive models of such when I was growing up.


For my own part I've bought teen girls clothes for myself in the past, mostly because I look old enough to have teenaged children of my own. At the time I went through that period of my buying habits I thought it would look less odd if I appeared to be buying clothes for a child rather than adult women's clothes. These days I just buy whatever I want and rarely waste any time thinking about what other people in the store might think. There's also the aspect that my own memories of realising that I was genuinely interested in wearing femme clothes stem from my early teen years and maybe there is some aspect of "recapturing the lost time and opportunities" of my past. Even to this day I often daydream about "what might have been" if I'd had the courage and support at the time to come out back then. I went to a coed highschool for several years that had manditory uniforms and while the girls uniform wasn't what would be considered particularly cute, I still would have liked the chance to wear it.

Try it on a non-threatening occasion, e.g., Halloween, and see how it fits. We encourage folks to try out LG Camp if they are interested and see if it is what floats their boat. Some come and find the sweetness and innocence to be precisely what they are seeking; others don't. At least two people left midway through their respective weekends after deciding it wasn't for them and that they were out of place. As others have written above, CDers are like snowflakes, all different.

[Robin Leigh]

One of the characteristics shown by girls I admired while growing up was a fascination with language and their desire to speak both correctly and with thought. The adults I was exposed to were duplicitous and evasive. An intellectually precocious 10-year old girl of the late 1950s is my model and, to her, expressing oneself clearly was paramount. How better to describe the beauty of a doll or her outfit than to use proper English and the correct terms? How can you have a tea party without knowing which fork or spoon to use? How would you greet the Queen?
That's a beautiful story, Taffy. And I think your imprinting theory is very plausible. I believe we are born with varied TG propensities, but they also manifest in a variety of ways depending on our general gender environment and can easily be shaped by key people & events in our lives.

I'm not sure what age I was when my CD imprinting occurred, but I suspect it may have been before I could form full sentences. :) My CD side certainly contains elements that I identify as coming from my mother when she was still quite young.


Some LGs, perhaps because they came to recognize who they were only after going through the sissy or AB (adult baby) community, speak in toddler talk. I came to recognize who I was relatively late in life, with no prior exposure to these communities. Additionally, a number of LGs attempt to separate their personality into two sides, the male which they refer to as "Daddy" or "Big Brother" and their female side which they refer to by name. I believe this is fundamentally unhealthy and have said so often, much to the consternation of some LGs. Integrating both aspects of one's personality into a coherent whole leads to a richer and more fulfilling life, or at least it has in mine...

I agree that integration is ideal, but it doesn't hurt to have ways to conveniently refer to these two facets of one's personality. It does hurt if it interferes with the process of honestly accepting our TG nature as intrinsic.

:hugs:

Robin

[MarinaTwelve200]

As a scientist you may be dissappointed to find that CDs are like snow flakes. No two are exactly alike. There are no simple cut and dried answers.

I never expected there to be simple answers.---besides, even the study of snowflakes is interesting. There are certian factors they all have in common that lead to the different shapes. (like 60 degree angles for example)

Indeed I tend to see most non-scientist CD types do the most generalizing. perhaps limiting the reasons and drives active in CD to their own experiences. I am sort of like an entomoligist (studier of bugs), I look for different KINDS of CDs like different "species". And see how they function.

I dont think there is only ONE type of CD and I dont think that EVERY CD (personality not withsanding) is different. but rather there are MANY types of CDers, each type with different motives and drives, yet each type having a similar "consistancy". that may allow for a system of classification.

This may seem "cold" and "insensitive: to some, but we do it all the time We DO lable ourselves CD , TS and TG already dont we? and are not those classifications important to us?

I think it would be great if we could further subdivide CDing---as that would allow understanding of our own personal conditions and not be misled and confused by the feelings of others who have different driving forces. If you know that you may be a certian TYPE of CD, then you can better serve your own CD 'NEEDS", get a better handle on things and accept who you are.----And accept and respect the differences in others. Living in an uncertan and confused state is little fun for most of us.

[Bridget]

1. The thing is, some of these gay people are drag queens, they do it for sociopolitical reasons I do not completely understand. Other people are unable to deal with their homosexuality, so they need to assume a socially responsible role in order to express it. Others identify as transgender, and feel like heterosexual women. Others perhaps are gay, but just have a fetish for some articles of women's clothing?

2. Ah, lolikon. Well it really depends. This can be related to an infantilist fantasy, (you know, people with adult-baby and diaper fetish) where the helplessness and loving care given to a baby is sexualized. Or it can be simply related to young girls in puberty being seen as attractive, because they are biologically in their sexual prime (long ago before consent age laws, it wasn't uncommon for arranged marriages to involve young teenagers). Also the innocence, and pure girliness may be what is important to certain CDs. Loligoth fashion, for example, takes the frilly girly dresses, puts a goth spin on it.

3. If you put on too much makeup you look out of place. You don't wear a prom dress to the supermarket; likewise you wouldn't put on prom makeup to the supermarket. (But if you do, more power to you.)

[Bridget]

Indeed I tend to see most non-scientist CD types do the most generalizing. perhaps limiting the reasons and drives active in CD to their own experiences. I am sort of like an entomoligist (studier of bugs), I look for different KINDS of CDs like different "species". And see how they function.

You mean "entomologist"? Bug refers to specific insects within the group Hemiptera and Homoptera, which include sucking insects, like begbugs, aphids, scale insects, mealybugs, leafhoppers and the like.

(Just a friendly note from your local crossdressing entomologist)

[Melinda Lou]

This is bringing up an old thread, I know, but I found the topic interesting. I don't really have much of an opinion on question #1. I think there are many more straight CDs than gay--how many posts here have to do with telling one's wife? I wonder if gay CDs have an easier time of it, if for no other reason than they are often marginalized as gay men to begin with, and dealing with the stress of being marginalized as CDs (unfortunately) may be old hat, so to speak. I know, I'm being presumptuous.

As for #2, I am one of those who has LG panties in his stash. They are the real thing; they came from the girls' department at Sears, they fit me (they are Girls' Plus size) and I wore a pair with little butterflies on them to work under my clothes just yesterday. I don't know what that says about me, but as someone alluded to in another post, I have also dabbled in infantilism, though it is not my main interest. Maybe that makes me more of a fetishist. I am not trying to pass as an LG, so you won't see me in an oversized smocked dress (though I have no problem with the serious adult LG's). I just like to wear my little girl panties 'cause they're cute and they remind me of what I wore when I was younger and just starting with my cousin's panties.

As for makeup, I've never bothered--I am the tomboy type, and I want to keep it simple. (And I'm a little lazy.)

[btmgrl6]

I am in the same boat as Mj.. i am a girl,just born with the wrong plumbing but,not for long. I to am still a bit mystified by srt8 cd'ers . Curiouser and curiouser....Don't get me wrong,I don't see anything wrong with it.I just don't fully understand it. For that matter I don't really fully understand me.
As for the little girl thing, as long as there are no actual childern involved..knock yourself out! As for those who are looking for someone that dresses as a child.....they creep me out. ewwwwwwwwwww.
As for make-up. I don't always wear it. i am in femme 24/7 and I m not always up for putting on a pretty face....If I am going out on a date, or to a retaurant,it's a different story, but there are times that even then I go sans war paint
I think I am past the fantasy thing..Don't feel the need to dress to the nines every time I go out.Throw on a pair of jeans, a tee-shirt maybe even a bra,pull back my hair and out the door i go.. I am living my life as a girl and I imagine that they feel the same in regards to make-up and such...who cares?if you don't like the way I look...don't look.

Steph

[btmgrl6]

It's much easier for me, because i am out, I don't have anyone to answer to,and I am now comfortable with Steph. I don't how it would be for other gays..because they actually have two strikes against them, being gay, and being a crossdresser.It;s not like well they're gay already..so what difference would they're being a crossdresser make.It sort of seems like that is what you are asking.

Steph

[amanda barber]

I wonder if gay CDs have an easier time of it, if for no other reason than they are often marginalized as gay men to begin with, and dealing with the stress of being marginalized as CDs (unfortunately) may be old hat, so to speak. I know, I'm being presumptuous.



Theres not much marginalization of gay CD's from the gay community. Most of it come from from the straight community like the posts that state matter of factly what gay men want, "most gay CDs are just drag queens", "gays only want one night stands so why dress", "one is allways butch/bitch" or what their token gay friend ("I have a gay friend", "I know a gay") may have said. Its also hard to stick to the mantra that crossdressers are all strait (the word most is used sometimes) when that pesky gay cd exists. There are also some VERY bigoted but respected CD groups like tri-ess that flat out exclude gay CD's and put it in their mission statement.

Many CD's are offended by gay CD's because "it makes my arguement that I'm straight more difficult". There was a several page thread on that.

There was a thread on gay rights and the second reply was about how someone was offended about people wanting "special privileges".

And many just can't deal with the fact that gender identity and sexual preference are seperate issues, actually applies to everyone. If that were accepted there wouldn't be countless posts and threads about why would gays be or want a CD, "they want "Manly Men" you know.".

[Colleentg]

I can't offer too much on this other than my what my psychologist told me and if I can forward it correctly. All I know is most CDs are heterosexual. Most gay guys would rather have a gay GUY than a guy in a dress. Now, the 'little girl' complex? Yes, I'm one who loves to dress younger, not because of any perverted reason. I don't dress that way going out, much less on Halloween. It's something that my doctor told me that I'm trying to live out, something I missed during childhood which could be very connected to the lack of parental love and guidance. My parents never said, used or showed "love", it was a rather taboo word as I grew up. They used all other four letter words instead. My mother nearly fainted one day, when I was 22, when I told her straight out, that I loved her! That was the past, and I'm doing my best to move on.

[MsJanessa]

To address your points.

1. Why do a lotta GAY people seem to be into CDing? This is not the case. The vast majority of men who cd are straight and married or in long term relationships.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? I have yet to meet a or talk with a cd who likes to dress as a little girl. I would find this quite disturbing if they did.

3. CDing without makeup? Woman do not always wear makeup.

Actually I would say the majority on this site are straight(although not the VAST majority) many of Us who post here are gay or bi-- According to the poll I just read in another thread 35% of Us or either gay or bi and an additional 2% of Us are pansexual(whatever that means)-and both the question and the answer seem to suggest that there is something wrong with that---am I being overly sensitive? If so just let me know.

[Kali]

One point that has been made clear to me is that many gay drag queens are not crossdressers as we see it, they are performers. I know about a half-dozen who compete in things like the "Ms Gay PA" events and I've never seen them dressed outside of an event venue; just when performing or rehearsing for a show. And I've spent way too much time in bars with them ;)

[jayseedee]

Interesting topic about the mysteries. What makes me wonder is the variety of crossdressing among CDs. There are those for whom CDing happens in phases or cycles and they're fine the rest of the time going without; there are the full-timers whether all the way or full-time underdressed and otherwise fully dressed when they have the opportunity; there are the catalogers who keep a complete count of each type of clothing they own, and the collectors who concentrate on a specific item as a fetish; for some, wearing the clothes is enough while others have to achieve the complete look; many prefer to remain behind closed doors while others want to be public; and of course some are in it for the psyche while others concentrate on the libido. And all of that just has to do with crossdressers regardless of sexual orientation, and doesn't include other TG people like transsexuals or performance female impersonators.

For the mysteries you brought up, Marina Twelve, I speculate like this. Gay "bottoms" might want to dress to more approximate the traditional female role, and of course while most CDers are heterosexual, there's a proportion of gays who are into it, too, as it's not directly related to sexual orientation. A lot of gays grew up being labeled effeminate and being called sissies, and in adulthood they get to spread those wings and claim their femininity.

"Little girls" and other "adult sissies" have chosen or are driven (likely some of each) to focus on a particular period of life, which could relate to a time of feeling secure or to attributing security to an age and style of dress, or it could be complex in other ways. To the best of my knowledge and relief, these "specialists" are into being childlike, not being predatory toward children.

Makeup's the easy one. Some are into dressing, not appearing. Others want to be as natural as they can be, and view makeup as masking, and won't wear wigs either. And plenty have restrictions of time or other circumstance that doesn't give them the leisure or opportunity to apply makeup.

A breath of fresh air at last!

[Michelia]

I really find your questions rather irritating. And I think it is because you are an intelligent person that has been on this site quite a while and is in touch with what is happening but sometimes you act like you do not have a clue. I get this feeling you enjoy stoking little fires that do not exist.

The vast majority of CDs, as you well know, do not fit into any of these categories. And if you really seek to understand these behaviors, it does not seem as if the people that engage in them are coming out in droves to volunteer any explanations and/or defend themselves. You do adopt a slightly accusatory or condemning tone in spite of your "tolerance". Maybe you need to try another strategy...?


Michelia

[GingerS]

I dont think there is only ONE type of CD and I dont think that EVERY CD (personality not withsanding) is different. but rather there are MANY types of CDers, each type with different motives and drives, yet each type having a similar "consistancy". that may allow for a system of classification.

This may seem "cold" and "insensitive: to some, but we do it all the time We DO lable ourselves CD , TS and TG already dont we? and are not those classifications important to us?

I think it would be great if we could further subdivide CDing---as that would allow understanding of our own personal conditions and not be misled and confused by the feelings of others who have different driving forces. If you know that you may be a certian TYPE of CD, then you can better serve your own CD 'NEEDS", get a better handle on things and accept who you are.----And accept and respect the differences in others. Living in an uncertan and confused state is little fun for most of us.
I found your questions thought provoking and based on a desire to understand different motivations on why someone cd’s. Seems the make-up and LG reasons have been fully covered.

First, what most gay guys that do drag have told me is it’s for fun, not to attract someone, if fact, seems it’s next to impossible to get “lucky” in drag unless it’s Halloween. In other words, they’re not doing it to attract male partners.

Next, if you can accept this basic definition: Cross-dressing is the act of wearing clothing commonly associated with another gender within a particular society. -- They are some guys, can be straight, bi or gay that are very masculine that like to wear lingerie, skirts and heels but they mix it with suits, uniforms or sports gear, okay, at this point you could say it’s gender bending or fetish dressing but according to the basic definition, it’s still cross-dressing. They call themselves Lingerie Bears and some do it because they find the contrast of masculine vs. feminine all-in-one appealing.
I’ve been out for over 25 years and have never heard of this until a couple of years ago, just thought you might find it interesting. Hope I’m not opening a can of worms, new member here, don’t want to get clobbered!!

[Sierra Evon]

I dont really know about all the gay stuff , but for me and my motivation , witch defines me and only me as a uniqe person, such as we all are anyway , I kinda fall into #2 , #3 , on your shrt list , but only sorta , it all has commonalities as for CD's TV',s , TG , etc. , I guess when you figure that one out you;ll be famous , I dunno eighther , keeps ya guessing tho,,,,,,, :happy:

[jayseedee]

well my question is why do CD . do it .. for me being a ts i got it all sorted out my means justify my ends " i am a woman feel like a woman there for dress like a woman and will get surgery to complete the job" but for a CD well you don't want surgery or hormones so why do you do it ? thats my question... and a good one too bet you can't answer that :D

Hi MJ, if you really do want to know why the MAJORITY of us cross dress perhaps my blog on http://360.yahoo.com/jayseedee will give you a better idea. It is very easy to be mislead by reading the posts on here as most seem to be from borderline TSs or TSs or lifestyle TVs. American dominated sites are, it seems, mostly like this and are not representative of the world at large.
Regards James

[Christa]

It's much easier for me, because i am out, I don't have anyone to answer to,and I am now comfortable with Steph. I don't how it would be for other gays..because they actually have two strikes against them, being gay, and being a crossdresser.It;s not like well they're gay already..so what difference would they're being a crossdresser make.It sort of seems like that is what you are asking.

Steph

The assumptions about gays and gay couples in this thread crack me up! If you want to know about what it's like to be gay and a crossdresser, feel free to ask. I'm both gay and a crossdresser, and don't consider either or those qualities as a "strike against me". Nor does my boyfriend of 16 years.

And can I just say... Marlena Dahlstrom is the smartest chick in the room!?! Love ya, Marlena!!!

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

:o
Flattery will get you everywhere, Christa. ;)

A few more thoughts, since I recently spoke to a local PFLAG (http://www.pflag.org/) group, and consequently was thinking about gender varient/sexual orientation issues....

While sexual orientation and gender identity are separate, there are some interesting intersections between the two. As mentioned, it does seem like playing with gender isn't uncommon in the gay and lesbian communities (not only for historical reasons, but for a reason I'll get to in a minute).

Likewise, among crossdressers and other folks on the trans spectrum there does seem to be more acknowledged fluidity when it comes to sexuality. (For example, in the 1999 Yvonne's Place survey (http://www.thedigitalvillage.com/yvonnesplace/survey/survey99/sexuality.htm) of about 1,200 CDs, only about half self-identified as purely hetrosexual. About a quarter identified themselves as bi-curious, and the remainder identified as hetros with bisexual experience, bisexuals and homosexuals.) Incidently, this distribution follows more closely what Kinsey argued was the actual distribution of sexual orientations.

What I see as the common demoninator in both cases is that once having stepped outside of the box that society views as "normal," "conventional" etc. that it's probably easier to acknowledge other "unconventional" feelings. (Someone aptly said that being "straight" is more about being able to take things for granted -- or more likely never even think about them at all -- than it is about being hetrosexual.) So for gays and lesbians it's easier to be an effeminate man or masculine woman, or otherwise express gender in "non-standard" ways. Likewise, for CDs, it's easier to acknowledge being attracted to men, or wanting men to be attracted to you (which isn't necessarily the same thing) once you've stepped outside of "standard" gender expression.

In both cases it's important to remember the differences between fantasies (things you're intrigued by but would never actually do -- at least seriously), desires (things you'd like to do even if you haven't done them) and actual behavior.

So in the case of my gay friends who drag it up for the annual Pride parade, they're essentially fantasy dressing -- for the ornamentation, etc. -- and don't have any serious desire to be women, or even to try to present themselves as if they were (the way CDs usually do).

(OTOH, Christa could probably address this point better than I, but it does also seem like in the gay communities it's not very acceptable to admit one is crossdressing for more than just "drag." The drag queens I know often have trouble dating if it's perceived they're doing for more than just a stage act.)

Likewise, a number of CDs seem to have fantasies about "being the woman" on a date or in bed that they enjoy precisely because it's a fantasy where they can let their imaginations run wild. Sometimes is about sex (whether giving themselves permission to be attracted to men, or being the one who gets seduced, etc.), sometimes it can simply be that being desired is appealing (sort of the "ultimate" in passing), or it can just be that having a man on your arm is a great accessory.

[TxKimberly]

1 - From what I've seen, this is not true. In fact when I first came to the internet I visited a chat room something along the lines of "ask gay guy anything". Had a long conversation with the group in which they told me as nicely as possible (lol) that they intensely DISLIKE cross dressers because when Mr Joe Public thinks of Gay men, it's US he pictures, not the average gay man. sort of a side effect of the media always zeroing in on the queens at gay pride marches and events. Long story short, at least according to those guys, your average gay man does not care for us, let alone do it.
Now to jump on the other side of the line I just drew I've had another thought. (Yes thinking hurt, but I'll get over it). It seems to me that by the time you are an openly gay man, you probably don't give a care about proving your manhood and so may be more open to playing with cross dressing on Halloween and that sort of thing.

2 - CDing like little girls. Never done it because for me it has uncomfortable connotations that others ha e already commented on here. Having said that, I would have to admit there is a certain appeal to it in that the typical little girl dress most of us envision would be a very pretty and feminine thing. I am also drawn to wedding dresses and that sort of thing for the same reason - they are kind of "THE" ultimate in feminine attire.
There is also a part of me that feels like I got screwed outta being a little girl, and it wasn't fair, and I want it back! lol

3 - CDing without makeup? Don't get that one myself. For me, and based on your comments I assume you as well, I want to appear, be treated, and accepted as a woman. Apparently there are guys that honestly just like wearing pretty clothes, and feel no need or desire to present as female. Just to be clear, I am NOT slamming these guys. When I go out dressed, baring my getting involved in an accident, or arrested for doing something stupid, I have zero concern that I'll be recognized. More or less I am in disguise. The guys that just go out the door wearing a dress and no makeup or hair, have got to have an incredible amount of confidence and courage that puts mine to shame.

[Taffy]

2 - CDing like little girls. Never done it because for me it has uncomfortable connotations that others ha e already commented on here. Having said that, I would have to admit there is a certain appeal to it in that the typical little girl dress most of us envision would be a very pretty and feminine thing. I am also drawn to wedding dresses and that sort of thing for the same reason - they are kind of "THE" ultimate in feminine attire.

While a lot of CDs are drawn to wedding dresses, most LGs would rather have a flower girl dress. After all, the flower girl is the only member of the wedding party who is permitted to outdress the bride, because she is not considered to be in competition with the bride for the groom...

[Christa]

(OTOH, Christa could probably address this point better than I, but it does also seem like in the gay communities it's not very acceptable to admit one is crossdressing for more than just "drag." The drag queens I know often have trouble dating if it's perceived they're doing for more than just a stage act.)


I think that's a fair observation. We "gays" love our drag queens, but in my experience gay men can get pretty uncomfortable when it comes to crossdressers and transexuals.

My theory is that as gay men, we spend a lot of energy trying to be masculine possibly to alleviate internal homophobia, to "blend in", or to help others feel comfortable around us. So any expression of real femininity can be met with repulsion... as if we're somehow traitors to the gay community. Add in femininity under a sexual context, and the problem is compounded exponentially.

While dealing with gay issues has certainly helped me deal with CD issues, it isn't automatically easier to a CD if you're gay. Being a gay crossdresser can be just as difficult as being a straight crossdresser. At the end of the day, it's tricky for all of us to find love and acceptance within ourselves and from others as a crossdresser.

[Lovely Rita]

I might seem like some sort of "know it all" to some folks here, but there are a lotta things, concerning CD that puzzle the hell out of me. I suppose those mysteries are what drive me to learn more and more.---Things i dont understand bug the crap outa me.:D

Here is a short list of my favorite CD "mysteries"

1. Why do a lotta GAY people seem to be into CDing? Transsexuals not withstanding, one would think that gay guys would be the LEAST likely persons to CD---dressing up like "yucky" women and girly stuff.---Perhaps its only an "illusion" that gays are especially prone to CDing, but that does not make any sense to me.

2. CDing like "Little girls".? Little girls are not sexually attractive (unless one is a pedophile) but MOST important they werar no makeup, have no boobs and dont wear high heels or other sexy clothing---none of the "good" CD stuff. I aint figguered this one out either--unless its a play on the "ultimate vulnerability or helplessness of little girls. I dont mean to be insulting here---I'm cool with everyones personal variations, it just that I dont understand some of them.

3. CDing without makeup? This is likely a less complex "mystery", but in my opinion, a guy somehow seems to be holding onto a part of his male identity is he does not also "cover" his face and change that into its female aspect too.

Im sure I can think of a few more things that puzzle me, but these will do for now.---- Do you have any personal CD mysyeries too? or Any comments that may be of help?


I was not aware that Gays were into cding. I guess it is their perogative.

Without makeup, sounds like a pretty secure cd. Maybe tired of the makeup and has become more like woman. Some woman just put on lipstick

I love anklets and girlie stuff because I did not get enough as a child, maybe.

brgds