Rules and boundaries vs. limits

[GG Vanya]

The following was a post by Penny on Confused's thread:

Who makes the rules? Who sets the boundries? For sure, if a husband is a wifebeater, he sets the rules until such time, if ever, the wife leaves. If, in Vana's case the husband rules the roost but the wife rules the husband (her avitar) then the wife makes the rules. Nowhere in the orriginal thread posted was there a mention of "wishes"; no there were boundries/rules. So, who makes the rules? As life progresses, people change. Things we once thought about our spouse are not true anymore or perhaps never were. What then are we to do? If my wife eats her way to obesity after we are married, does that then give me the right to set rules because she doesn't look like the girl I married? If I am skinny and she is overweight, does this then make superior? So then, it is ok for me to place conditions by which she must abide? If a wife finds out her husband is a crossdresser and she is not, does this make her superior and thus she then gets to make the rules?
A great many crossdressers never reveal this to their spouse or SO . Is this because the spouse set the rules or is it because the crossdresser sets the rules and doesn't want to lose dominance?
Marriage is a contract wereby both parties agree to abide by rules which are understood (i.e. monogomy). Beyond, those basic rules, who sets the rules?

To avoid hijacking that thread, I've created this one.

I'd like to first address your statement about my avatar and my relationship with my husband, Penny. I find it presumptuous of you to state that *I* make the rules for my husband. To begin with, the avatar I use is a bit of an inside joke between my husband and myself.

Trudi and I live the alternative lifestyle of D/s. We are both what is known as a "switch". I won't go into the details again as I've explained them here several times already. You can do a search on my posts to bring you up to speed on it. I will say, however, that the man I'm married to is very much a Type A personality and very dominant. I am a Type A personality but I defer to my husband. "Trudi" defers to me. For a better understanding you can check out CastleRealm.com

Now, for the topic of rules and boundaries. I'll compare this to one aspect of the D/s lifestyle. We establish and maintain what we call "limits". We have soft limits, which means those may change with time, and pushing those limits is common~perhaps something we've never experienced but might enjoy at some time in the future. We also have hard limits. These are things we simply can not emotionally physically or mentally accept or handle. Hard limits are respected and *never* subject to negotiation or compromise~breaking a hard limit is, and should be, an absolute deal breaker in a relationship that involves D/s.

These limits are in no way meant to be controlling the other person. They are simply a set of guidelines for the "things that we do" within the realm of BDSM and in the privacy of our relationship and home. Establishing and discussing those limits are our way of protecting each other and our own self from things that might damage us emotionally, etc.

Now, while I have no limits concerning Trudi's crossdressing, I think that the SOs who do mention "rules" here on the forum are more likely making reference to things that are "hard limits" or "soft limits" for them. It's my strong opinion that *every* SO of a crossdresser has a right to establish limits, especially the hard limits, to indicate the things they simply cannot handle, whether it be emotionally, physically, or mentally.

The crossdressers need to wake up and smell the coffee. Coming out to your wife is a shock to every emotion or thought she's ever had about you! You've had a lifetime to adjust to being dual gendered, but you expect *her* to jump off the deep end and accept every aspect of it immediately?

In Confused's case, her husband is upset that she's not moving forward fast enough for him and she's only known five freakin weeks!!! :angry: :Pullhair: :Angry3: I accepted Trudi immediately, but even then it was THREE MONTHS before I ever got to "meet" her, and by that time we'd been cohabitating for two months. We decided that would happen when "she" felt comfortable with it. I think she was wise in waiting, because that gave me even more time to digest the rammifications and possibilities of life with a CD.

I'm sure many women feel the same way I would have if I'd had problems accepting Trudi. You can lead me a thousand miles, but you ain't gonna push me one inch!

So, would using the word "limits" be more palatable for you CDs than the word "rule" which most of you seem to so strongly object to?

[Megan72]

Penny's response in the other thread only exemplifies the physical aspect, the male aspect in many cases. What CD's can not fully understand is the emotional issues.

If my SO ate herself to obesity, as stated, I would feel some degree of responsibilty to help her get back to where she was physically when we married, not just because of health, but because in reality I am a man, and I like to see beutiful woman, not to say that she is not but It would be a different illusion than the one I married. this is the male personna, we see the physical attribute of the individual first, whereas woman, look at the emotional and nonphysical attributes.

It really has less to do with rules and more to do about the person we are in the relationship with. I married a specific person and whether fluffy or skinny, she is the same person I love and married. If one day I woke up next to Fabio, then she has changed the person she was and therefore altered the relationship would I not have the right to desire the same person I married?

CD's have to realize that when we disclose our little hobby then the woman in our lives perceive us as a different person. even though it is only the clothing that is different in most ways. I have heard Vana say that Trudi becomes less dominant when en-fem. I do as well, I take on a more feminin personna.

So who fianaly makes the rules. There are no rules only those guidlines that we as individuals choose to follow. For instance, if given the option by my SO to stop dressing or leave, I would try to stop dressing. Others may choose to leave. If you or your SO sets a limit on something there is always implied or explicite an alternative. The rules are that if you want to stick around then do or dont do X. You have the choice to make, as to the extent that you will abide.

[GG Vanya]

But, the point I was trying to make was that the limits are ones the SO sets for *herself*. i.e. My dear darling husband, I simply cannot handle you dressing like Tammy Baker. This is emotionally and mentally damaging to me. I ask that you respect this as one of *my* limits.

Now, whether this is a "hard" limit, or a "soft" one has to be determined by the two people involved. It's possible the wife could eventually come around to admiring her husband as Ms. Baker. If the very thought of seeing her husband like that makes her want to run screaming to a counselor, then I'd say that's definitely a hard limit.

When a crossdresser comes out to his wife, he needs to accept that he is responsible for the emotional fallout resulting from it~not just accept it, but take ownership of it! Saying "this is me honey, I can't stop it" does not give the husband a license to run though his wife's life and emotions like a bull in a china shop. Sadly, I see a lot of fine china being reduced to rubble in too many of these posts.

Edited to add: When hard limits are established and communicated, ignoring them is not only disrespectful to your spouse, it is equivalent to emotional abuse.

[Megan72]

I absolutly agree with you. I was trying to make the point that we are each responsible for our own actions, and the reactions that occur because of the choice we make. I really had not even touched on the aspect of whether or not it hurt the other person, only that if it did we have to take responsibilty for it.

Many of the CD's here seem to have a high level of self gratitude going on, so much so that they are not thinking of how this affects the other people in their life. Not all, but many feel that this is their thing. I learned a long time ago that what I do with my life, no matter how insignificant it may be, has some affect on my SO. I gauge each desicion I make with her in mind, because as my wife I agreed to incorporate her into all aspects of my life, and vise versa. I do not intentionaly hurt her, but as with all relationships there is always some disagreements.

I think that if more people thought in terms of how their actions affect others we might be better off. But like this thread I can only take ownership of my own actions not the actions of others.

[tekla west]

The noted authority on "Love" in Modern America Jacqueline Suzanne in her epic volume on the subject, The Valley of the Dolls said:

In every relationship there is one who loves, and one who is loved.

Tell me who is who, and I will tell you who makes the rules and sets the boundaries with 100% accuracy.

As for the idea that:
When hard limits are established and communicated...
When this happens, time to hit the road. In reality, a statement such as this is called a "command" and is the Provence of masters and slaves, bosses and workers, patron and peons. It is not the stuff of good, solid relationships.

[Kate Simmons]

Like you said Vanya, they need to "wake up" and not only "smell the coffee" but appreciate who makes it. Simple as that, really.:happy: Ericka

[EricaCD]

Call them what we will: limits, rules, boundaries. Call some of the rules hard vs. soft. BTW Vanya, while my understanding of the D/s community is quite rudimentary, I certainly understand the need for hard boundaries there and that it is crucial that those NEVER be transgressed. And I think this is a useful refinement for thinking about boundaries in the CD realm as well...

It may be the case that all this "rule-setting", however you characterize it, seems icky in the context of what should be a loving relationship. At the same time, I will say that the ability to negotiate (and I use that term advisedly) a set of boundaries was an absolutely indispensible element to Helene's first coming to terms with my crossdressing. First, the boundaries gave her a sense of fundamental control at a time when I sure she felt quite at sea, given the revelations she was dealing with. Second, the same boundaries reminded her that at base I was the same person she had married all those years ago - I was/am not a swinger, not looking to reassign my gender, etc. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, discussing boundaries gave her a subject matter, a context, where she could for the first time begine to intelligently discuss exactly what my crossdressing meant to our relationship.

I am hopeful that we will eventually move our relationship past a point where we can abandon the whole concept of boundaries and rather proceed under the knowledge that I would never take any action that would hurt her. In the realm of crossdressing, we are not there yet. And in the meantime, an open conversation about boundaries, and a willingness to respect them (and to never contravene a "hard limit") has been a very useful relationship tool.

Helene's comments here, as always, are welcome.
Erica

[Scotty]

Seems these issues are REALLY coming to light lately.

I wonder if it's the holidays coming up.

I can understand the emotional issues involved with a woman coming to grips with this, I went through this with an SO. I am still her best friend and she is mine.
Lucky for me she believes we each have to live our lives as who we are.

Anyway she has an open mind and it was STILL hard on her.

SO when I think of, or see a "conservative" wife, ie Leave it to Beavers mother (Nobody in specific is being referred to here!!), or anyone who won't bend because of their beliefs and then a CD who WANTS to experiment and find his/her femme side I can't help but feel bad for both parties as without compromise there is NO middle ground......

We seem to be seeing a lot of that lately, and that's sad......:brokenheart:

[Nike]

[QUOTE=tekla west;637331]The noted authority on "Love" in Modern America Jacqueline Suzanne in her epic volume on the subject, The Valley of the Dolls said:

"In every relationship there is one who loves, and one who is loved".

This of course came to be known as unrequited love. Ah, but we've all known how much fun THAT is. :sad:

The Valley of the Dolls embodies all that was the mid 60's. Times were about to change, in America and around the world, but the tide had only begun to turn. Tender traditions of the 50's lingering as the world, indeed the universe began to shrink with new technologies (color TV and the transister radio) Walter Cronkite in our living rooms each weekday evening and a race as yet unfullfilled to go into space, even to dare to dream of landing on the moon.

40 years ago when "Valley" reached the masses, this simple qoute reaches back to times far more Victorian. Something old made to appear new and most certainly more a part of an America long past, than a living authoritative statement of "Love" in "Modern America" where today individuals enter relationships as equals in a partnership.

One partner can only be as dominant as the other is Submissive. There is equality in their expression of who they are and how they choose to experience their lives.

As for the "who is who", one only need to be present to discern what does not need words for comprehension.


"As for the idea that:
When hard limits are established and communicated...
When this happens, time to hit the road. In reality, a statement such as this is called a "command" and is the Provence of masters and slaves, bosses and workers, patron and peons. It is not the stuff of good, solid relationships.

You clearly have "Hard Limits" yourself and express them well. Your perception is real and valid in your life experience, but may well be foreign to the fullness of life others experience. Be Well and Happy.

[Calliope]

As for the idea that:
When hard limits are established and communicated...
When this happens, time to hit the road. In reality, a statement such as this is called a "command" and is the Provence of masters and slaves, bosses and workers, patron and peons. It is not the stuff of good, solid relationships.

Yep.




The crossdressers need to wake up and smell the coffee.

Why is there a GG only forum but no CD only forum?

Do we always have to smell the coffee?

[ashleyinwpb]

I absolutely agree that being in a healthy cd relationship has to do with boundaries, rules, and compromises....My girlfriend of 5 years,she is now 23,and I , 26, have taken 3 years to establish what each of us are comfortable with....I love and cherish the fact that she is open enough to share her feelings and for us to communicate so neither of us harbor any ill feelings or resentment now or in the future.

[GG Vanya]

Yep.



Why is there a GG only forum but no CD only forum?

Do we always have to smell the coffee?

There's a GM only forum. Why is it seemingly a thorn in your side that there is a GG only forum?

Nope, you don't have to always smell the coffee, you don't have to smell it at all. I said CDs "need" to smell it. You can go right on insisting there is no coffee to smell if that's what rings your bell.

That's not going to change the fact that there *is* coffee though.

[Calliope]

There's a GM only forum. Why is it seemingly a thorn in your side that there is a GG only forum?

Nope, you don't have to always smell the coffee, you don't have to smell it at all. I said CDs "need" to smell it. You can go right on insisting there is no coffee to smell if that's what rings your bell.

That's not going to change the fact that there *is* coffee though.

Sharon just informed me the GM forum is a CD-only forum. I guess I'm dense, I always figured a male forum was for guys having guy talk. Maybe I've been using the ladies' room so long I forget my genetic tag. Apologies. If it was called CD-only, then I would've been hipped.

I do think all the 'smell the coffee' bizness is kinda harsh for a CD forum, though. Sensitive plant, me, I suppose.

:bonk:

More coffee!

[DAVIDA]

Oh what a feeling of distress
The clothes of a woman I must dress
But if I cross the line
no sex for some time
All cause of this little dress!:D

[battybattybats]

I have some serious philosophical, ethical and legal problems with some of the views expressed here... now as far as I understand it, personal boundaries include the person (and the absolute totality of that person) and their direct possesions and in a relationship all else between the two of these is shared space with equal right to negotiation.... certainly my therapist completely agrees with this definition. If this were not true then the following (and much worse) would be true:

A man could dictate his wifes career.
A man could dictate what his wife wears and when.
A man could insist his wife get an abortion.
(and of course vice-versa, the later example replaced with vasectomy)

Nope, out of the question, absolutely not. Sorry, no. Irrespective of what these limits are, if they extend into anothers personal boundaries they become unethical and therefore wrong. The only way someone gets any ethical influence over anothers personal boundaries is by permission which can be revoked at any time.

If someone voluntarily allows another some control to give them time to come to terms with what they intend to do with themselves thats fine... but its voluntary and they have the right to change their mind at any time. You can ask someone to respect the limitations you might request on their behaviour but they have absolutely the right to say no under any circumstances.

Otherwise where a person can set a limit that extends into the others personal space then that would be control and therefore abuse. How could a relationship be healthy when the person who has the finer limits, the most fragile emotions, complains the loudest or is most ready to leave the relationship then calls the shots?

I know many people are not emotionaly/psychologically able to handle allowing other human beings the kind of freedom that this entails. That doesn't make it right to restrict it however and the responsibility is for the person who becomes upset with their loved one's exercising their freedom (presuming that they are exercising their freedom ethically) to learn to deal with and own and be responsible for those emotions and not the other way round. This may of course take a lot of time and effort.

Now society is quite flawed and plenty of people grow up with expectations that may not match the real world alltogether well, plenty of people don't think very often about human rights, ethics and the implications of applying certain principles to certain issues and so it may take them time to come to terms with them during which a compassionate, understanding, loving and patient partner might suspend some of their freedoms for a conciderable time to help them do so.

Emotions are powerful, often beautiful and often dangerous things.
Would it have been right in the past for a white woman to refuse to free her african slave because she couldn't bear to part with them? I don't think so. I don't think that emotions trump human rights. Ever.

[Stacy GG]

Sharon just informed me the GM forum is a CD-only forum. I guess I'm dense, I always figured a male forum was for guys having guy talk. Maybe I've been using the ladies' room so long I forget my genetic tag. Apologies. If it was called CD-only, then I would've been hipped.

I do think all the 'smell the coffee' bizness is kinda harsh for a CD forum, though. Sensitive plant, me, I suppose.

:bonk:

More coffee!
If it was called a CD forum you'd have both ftm and mtf in there...prob why they went with GM.

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

:thumbsdn: i maybe a prime example of this convo. as such there wasnt any boundries set between myself and my c/d b/d, ( apart from not infront of my daughter ). things arent to good for us @ mo. ive acted on something thats happened, he doesnt like it and now its the "silence". :thumbsdn: maybe i have over-reacted, but..... its like often you read on here, c/d go through a turmoil of wanting to tell us GG's about their c/d ,but then faced with the wroth of us GG'S who carnt/wont deal with it. yet us GG's are faced with the hurt, worry, pain of when we make comments. suggestions, etc we get our heads ripped off !! :Angry3: comprise never seems to come into it, even though u can talk/discuss the issues till ur blue in the face !! its often alot easier to walk away and conceeded. its like that "tracy chapman" song :

"sorry seems to be the hardest word".
:sad:

[Maureen Henley]

CONSENSUS, CONSENSUS,CONSENSUS !
In our marriage, Liz and I have agreed on boundries, limits, call them what you will, (how about strong preferences?). The emphasis is on the word agreed. When we entered into our contract (marriage), we agreed to certain things. Any changes, or undisclosed pre-existing conditions, ie., my crossdressing, must be negotiated, else one or the other is violating the contract .

I disagree with Tekla west's attitude about limits, etc. There is always the alternative to accepting a limit, which is ending the relationship. It is simply a matter of which is more important, the relationship or exceeding the limit.

[Jennifer_Ph]

It's simple, really. Jodi (my wife) and I are a team. Sometimes I make decisions, other times she does. All that matters is that we always have the best interest of each other in mind when decisions are being made. She's the love of my life, the girl of my dreams. I do all I can to make her happy. And thankfully, she does the same for me. God I'm lucky.

[Tree GG]

It's simple, really. Jodi (my wife) and I are a team. Sometimes I make decisions, other times she does. All that matters is that we always have the best interest of each other in mind when decisions are being made. She's the love of my life, the girl of my dreams. I do all I can to make her happy. And thankfully, she does the same for me. God I'm lucky.

I started to post, but cannot improve on this. And I would follow him through hell and back (which I have :D ) because he is "the one". Not perfect, but neither am I. Sometimes CDers "forget" their SO when in the midst of pink fog - maybe only temporarily, but it's still a phase that affects the SO.

[Penny]

Hi Vanya!
First of all, I have read your other threads and posts; I was really refering to the avitar (Vana) and not your relationship ( Vanya). How easy it is for all of us to believe what we don't see, see what we don't believe, hear what we only want to hear and of course, hear nothing at all.
Secondly, my post to the the thread of witch you quoted provides no one with my opion. I meerly made some statements and asked some thought proviking, and in some cases, sole searching questions.
Yo'all have a nice day now!

:hugs:

Penny

[Sandra]

It's simple, really. Jodi (my wife) and I are a team. Sometimes I make decisions, other times she does. All that matters is that we always have the best interest of each other in mind when decisions are being made. She's the love of my life, the girl of my dreams. I do all I can to make her happy. And thankfully, she does the same for me. God I'm lucky.

At first with the dressing I made the decisions but now it is as Jennifer has said above, and we work together after all isn't that what being married is about.?

[kerrianna]

Okay, I just have to say this. I have read an awful lot of posts by CD's in the 'pink fog' etc here, in marriages, LTRs, who seem to think that their desires, impulses, destiny, whatever gives them some kind of free pass, exemption, excuse to engage in behaviour that confuses or challenges their partners.

It's really quite simple, and I know a lot of us (I'm one) know this and willfully or otherwise forget it. IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO and that's what a relationship is about. Call them what you want: rules, boundaries, limits but the fact is they exist in any long term meaningful relationship because that is how we communicate to each other and work things out. All creatures do it.

It doesn't mean that things are set in stone: a successfull relationship requires EVERYDAY work and mindfullness. It's always changing and challenging the both of you, so TALK, work it out, accept that some days are bad and you both make mistakes, AND DON'T LIE TO YOURSELF. If you know you're angling for something in your relationship at least admit it to yourself so when your partner freaks out you know why. Then you WILL know how to fix it.

[Kate Simmons]

Hi Vanya!
First of all, I have read your other threads and posts; I was really refering to the avitar (Vana) and not your relationship ( Vanya). How easy it is for all of us to believe what we don't see, see what we don't believe, hear what we only want to hear and of course, hear nothing at all.
Secondly, my post to the the thread of witch you quoted provides no one with my opion. I meerly made some statements and asked some thought proviking, and in some cases, sole searching questions.
Yo'all have a nice day now!

:hugs:

PennyHi Penny, I know where you are coming from, Hon. Most of my threads and posts are designed to get us to think and search our feelings and sometimes consider "what if" scenerios. Blame it on my pragmatic nature, I guess.What it all boils down to for me is my willingness to admit who I am (a guy who likes to dress like a woman) and my desire to communicate with people openly and honestly with no hidden agenda. My wife does not acknowledge my femme self. If she did, however, I would most certainly work out rules and boundries for being my femme self and would honor them. The only reason I was so secretive in the past was to spare her feelings. I had needs and desires which had nothing to do with our relationship really. Mostly to establish my own identity and get in touch with my feelings which I supressed most of my life. For myself, crossdressing has kind of liberated the "inner me" and the results have been surprising to say the least, even to me. I find that I really could put Ericka on the "shelf" (maybe indefinately) to get my wife back. I find that being Richard is not as "bad" as I thought and am seeing myself in a new light. Karma maybe? Whatever it is, the lesson has been learned and appreciated. I can finally see things from her aspect. Anyway, with reference to your comment, it seems as some post avatars and quotes, it may be all we have to go on when trying to perceive what folks are like. I wouldn't be afraid to post my guy pic here as I feel if anyone I know sees it, I'm going to ask them why they were on such a site to begin with. We may "talk" a good fight with our opinions, etc. but really if we are afraid our pic may put us or our SO in a compromising position, we should not be so opinionated or vocal about others. What is the worst that could happen really? The old adage of putting your money where your mouth is seems to apply. I feel if I'm going to be "damned", I want to be damned for who I am and not some mysterious person who in all reality is unwilling to share themselves with others. I feel it would be nice if someday, crossdressers.com could have some kind of meeting or convention where we could all really meet so we could see who we are dealing with. I realize that online personas can be quite different from the real person, but with myself, what you see and what you read is what you get.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Nike]

"We may "talk" a good fight with our opinions, etc. but really if we are afraid our pic may put us or our SO in a compromising position, we should not be so opinionated or vocal about others. What is the worst that could happen really? The old adage of putting your money where your mouth is seems to apply. I feel if I'm going to be "damned", I want to be damned for who I am and not some mysterious person who in all reality is unwilling to share themselves with others. " posted by Ericka/Rich

To agree to disagree is one thing. To simply be disagreeable is another. A picture here does not happen to be a requirement for open and honest discussion and/or debate.

For a time Vanya (my Bride) and I had pictures posted on this forum. We chose to remove them from this board (they are available on line elsewhere) because of the risk/reward factor.

Quite frankly, there are many good and decent members here who understand that sometimes discretion IS the better part of valor. There are others among us far too shallow, narcissistic and often angry, even openly vengeful. These few tilt the risk/reward test to "Failed". As a result, we choose who we will and will not share our pictures with and when.

This is the internet. Like a good 12 Step meeting, take what you want/need and leave the rest.

You ask: "What is the worst that could happen really?"

Probably nothing. However WE choose the level of intimacy we will share in an open forum. If a picture is what creates "genuine" in your mind, then follow your eyes past 50% - 60% of the posts on this board to one with a picture in the Avatar.

Rhetorically speaking, do you know what Ayn Rand, Norman Vincent Peel, Zig Zigler, Mozart, Margaret Mitchell or Ernest Hemmingway look like? I don't recall that they were required to post photos to be published. Ironically, we read editorials daily on local and national news and the Editor rarely if ever posts a pic. Maybe we need to inform the New York Times that their editorial lacks credibility because we can't see a picture of the Editor. Afterall, his opinion and experience is suspect if he/she is unwilling to show themself according to this mindset.

[Kate Simmons]

Sorry, Trudi, I didn't mean to come off as a "know it all" myself. My post wasn't directed at anyone in particular, it just so happened that's the point where I decided to let off some "steam". I'm guilty of sometimes firing "from the hip".You have every right to choose your level of sharing. You didn't need to explain why you stopped posting the avatars to anyone really. I do read everyone's posts and learn from them and consider their perspectives. I get confused sometimes about these accepting SO threads and guidelines, rules, boundries being set, etc. I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings. My post wasn't intentionally directed at anyone in particular. Guess my independent nature as Ericka took over.:happy: Ericka

[Nike]

"Sometimes you feel like a ****...... sometimes you don't"

[Michelia]

Keep it coming.

Thanks Vanya.

I may or may not comment down the road. But I just wanted to let you know I was quite enjoying it. And I like the way you approach your own relationship. I am always learning from all of you. It is wonderful.

Michelia