Hell Bound

[Marcie Sexton]

With the growing number of us gals finally coming out, I was posed with a question from my neice, who much to my dismay is ultra conserative.
Although she has never preached to me about going to hell, she posed a question to me that started my feeble mind to wondering. Am I not afraid of going to hell for dressing as a woman ?

Knowing her view< and she has proven she can be trusted, holding several secrets of mine >, I responded by saying that I didn't think the good Lord would fry us in oil for following something we felt was right. Perhaps some flames to our fannies for causing hurt to some one unnecessarly, by that I mean not being truthful and giving a serious try at working things out and coming to an understanding with that person/persons.

I can speak personally that my SO had a real problem with me dressing and for almost a year I gave it up and resumed me as the male I was born. Then for some unknown reason she presented me with all my things back on my last birthday. Needless to say we talk constantlyabout the whys and hows, now she has even started to share makeup tips.

Irregardless, though I really don't think that the Lord would condem us to eternal damnation for following our feelings. I think that is why he is the Lord, he has allowed us the freedom to make our choices and reap the rewards, what ever it may be. He has seen fit to allow man kind to gain knowledge to find cures for things that once was incureable.

No being a Christian, but with a profound sense of respect and reverance for the good Lord, I was just wondering what you other girls though of this.

I would love to hear from any Christians who dress regularly, how they handle this thought and if any one agress with me.

Thanks girls for allowing me the space for such a "heavy" subject, but with lots of fodder for thought.

Marcie

[MsJanessa]

well it would depend on where all the other T-Girls went---lol Actually I'm not aware that heaven has a dress code

[Karren H]

God girl!! Crossdressing in Mingo County is like taking your life in your hands!! Lol. But I have done it...Williamson! Just passing through!

But you living in the bible belt there its no wonder they are ultra conservative!! I'm not a church goer either but respect others right to do so and have found out that people can read what ever they want to into the good book!! Having lived in S WV for 6 years taught me that!! Like "Can't expose your arms" or snake handling? Ok......

Love Karren

[Kate Simmons]

Damn, never know what those women are going to do, keeps us guessing, no? As far as Hell, I have nothing to worry about. I was there and got kicked out. I talked so much, the Devil got tired of it and sent me back (this was an actual dream of mine--or was it a dream?). Anyway, now you all are stuck with me, so beware. Poor Satan was so stressed out from it, he was ready to resign. Hey, Audey Murphy has nothing on me for sure.Be good.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[Charleen]

Can't answer as I'm a heathen. I live my life today trying to not do things that I would regret, most importantly, doing no harm to others as well as myself. I also try to do something good for others, even if that means keeping my mouth shut. (I deal with the public). There's an ancient saying that says- to your own self be true.
BTW, Welcome aboard! Also glad to hear that things with the SO are working out.
Love and xxxx, Lily

[lizbendalin]

Marcie,

there are tons of different ways that Christians have approached their transgender nature. Check out: http://members.aol.com/gnlnews/index1.html.

[Marcie Sexton]

Having read your remarks, then you know very well what I am up against. My SO now having seen that c/d is me, not a passing fad, is very understanding and supportive.

Oh as a post script, my neice, ...well...lives in the Fresno Valley area...

[celeste26]

You said:"Irregardless, though I really don't think that the Lord would condem us to eternal damnation for following our feelings. I think that is why he is the Lord, he has allowed us the freedom to make our choices and reap the rewards, what ever it may be. He has seen fit to allow man kind to gain knowledge to find cures for things that once was incureable.

No being a Christian, but with a profound sense of respect and reverance for the good Lord, I was just wondering what you other girls though of this."

If you are truly not a Christian then it doesn't matter at all what God thinks, only what the people who care for you think. ON the other hand if you really want to know for sure there is no excuse for not reading the Bible and finding out what God thinks. Because God does not perform polls to decide what is right or not, He is the source of all things right. Putting anything (even your feelings) before Him is not what he wants. God wants your total attention not partial attention.

God does give us our freedom that is true, but not to do anything we want.
We cannot love God without that freedom, if we love Cross dressing more than we love God that tells us what he needs to know about our values. enough said?

[Marcie Sexton]

Thanks so much, perhaps with some power< knowledge > I can come to a resloute answer for myself...

[Robin Leigh]

I was raised as a Christian, but for most of my adult life, my personal religion & philosophy has been much more closely aligned with the Hindu/Buddhist world, rather than the Judeo/Christian/Islamic traditions.

I don't believe that God will punish me for crossdressing, per se. But He may be mildly amused if I tried to stop. :D

Crossdressing/gender bending occurs in the ancient Indian scriptures, but mostly in a positive light, from my readings.

Robin

[CharleneCD]

Why do all the research yourself. http://www.gendertree.com/ One of our sisters already has. I know her personaly and know she is a devout Christian.

[Kerry Owens]

OK, my viewpoint on this is simply put; fashions change. What we consider feminine style 2,000 years ago was worn by men. The only men who had trousers were the howling barbarians up in the Scythian neck of the woods.
Romans even the simple poor folks wore tunic style clothing. This continued pretty much up through the 1300's.
That we wear clothing blended of linen and wool is breaking one of those commandments in the Pentateuch. Sooooo guess what I don't think too awfully much of the dress rules. Its so much a minor thing in life.
Now, murdering people, killing children, causing major death in cities, poisoning lives with lies....yeah that is major. I think it's a reality check, do we worry about God being angry over the socks we wore....or that person we basically left emotionally destroyed.
just me I guess.

[Teresa Amina]

I love those songs, and mostly I listen to classical:D
Seriously, don't worry about going to hell cause you dress like a girl. God/dess is not so petty.

[insearchofme]

Part of being a true Christian is not judging others.

[suanne]

Hi Marcie. Hey good thread. Guess you are gonna get this from a Christian prespective. You a Christian? Your answer: No. You believe the Bible? If you do, then you need to be a Christian. Ok for the crossdressing thingie. Deut 22:5. Check it out. That's the biggie for some cders. Me, well I am a Christian. I am a poor excuse for one, but am none the less. Wanna know what I think about cding. Well if I could stop I would have. Enough said about what I believe. That's where we usually get in trouble when we start out by saying "this is what I think" The Bible. It does say some things like, abstain from all appearances of evil. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Want some more out of the Bible. Read I Corinthians Chap 6 start with vs 9 and read thru vs 20. That should be enough there to explain some things. Sounds like you want approval. Sorry I can't give it to you but a lot of others here on this forum will. Please understand I am not being nasty. I am being as honest to you as I can. Heck I don't even know you. But you asked. Now for those of you who are reading this and are not Christians. Don't get bummed at me. Get bummed at God. It is his book and his complete idea and his grace and mercy. Oh yes. Those few things I mentioned above are just a few. The bible has a lot more to say about those who want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hey...read the book. Believe it?...well that is totally up to you. So do you go to heaven for crossdressing? Don't have the answer for that one. But I tell you this. If I were gonna stand in front of God and Jesus I wouldn't want to do it dressed as Suanne. This is MHO.

[Penny]

The 11th commandment: thou shalt not look pretty if thou ist a male. I'm sure that's right up there with the suicide bombers who kill inocent people including children. Not, not, not, not. What you wear matters little. How you live your life matters much!:2c:

[~Dee~]

"In heaven all the interesting people are missing."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche

ive been damned to hell.. been told im going to hell .. been told a lot of things really..
when it comes down to it, im not all too worried .. one religion says im going one place .. another religion says another ..

the only thing thats for sure is i need to meet fewer christians and go hang out with the buddhists.
:p

[carolinewalker_2000]

Hi Marcie,

I am a Christian, but I do not hold with fundimentalism - of whatever persuation. I cannot believe God is going to send crossdressers to Hell. The relevant passages from the bible that are always quoted against us are from the Old Testament and for me do not square with the God of love and compassion who came to earth and who's story is told in the New testament.

Also, don't forget:
a) we are reading the bible in translation and translations differ in interpretation
b) the bible contradicts itself a lot
c) fundimentalists only ever quote the bits of the bible that suit them & rarely seem to be prepared to enter into a debate about other passages which may not support their point of view.

So, I believe that God is more interested in who you are and how you behave towards him and towards others than he is in what you wear. Don't allow yourself to be browbeaten!!!!!!

[Elly]

i'm not sure about this heaven & hell thing but i believe if there is a god it probably doesn't care what we wear but rather how we treat others in life that counts (e.g. no stealing, murder, or hurting of others in general), not what we're wearing as we do it, also i never understood this need to give god a gender, i feel calling god a he is just food for the male ego and an affirmation of a percieved superiority...

[Phyliss]

Being an Agnostic, I'm no longer worried about going to heaven or hell.

I live my life as I see fit and do not intentionally cause harm to others, nor do I steal from others.

That is sufficient for me.

[Sexy_Jennifer]

Watch the news or take a look at the world around you - we're already in Hell.

[gennee]

I am a Christian and a crossdresser. I have read the bible many times and it doesn't mention anything about crossdressing. I don't guilty or ashamed that I wear women's clothing. If if did bother me, I would have prayed for God to take away this desire. It's a part of my life so I have to see where it leads.

Gennee


:gorgeous:

[Ashley1]

Hi Karren,

I once did three years of hard time in Parkersburg, W VA. Know what ya mean!

[Stephenie S]

As one who does not believe in a fundamentalist God, I do not worry much about Heaven or Hell. I think we can make our own heaven and hell right here and now. Think about what we are doing in Iraq if you want to think about Hell. (and I don't mean we as in the US, I mean we as in BOTH sides).

However, the usual prohibitions in the Bible about crossdressing occur in the Old Testament, which has nothing to do with Christianity. Also they occur along with prohibitions about wearing mixed fabrics and fringe. Is your shirt a cotton/polyester blend? Will you go to Hell for that?

Now, did Jesus say anything about CDing? I think not. This is a non issue. A "tempest in a teapot". Small minds grasp at straws to support their views. There is NO conflict between Christianity and CDing. Fundamentalist Christian churches can hold some pretty odd views, many of which conflict with other fundamentalist churches.

Religion involves FAITH. Faith is a belief in something which cannot be proven. It is very personal thing. We have no inalianable right to judge anothers' faith. If you believe you will go to Hell for CDing you may very well do so, but that belief does not appear to be supported by the words of Jesus Christ.

Stephenie

[Marla S]

Hell is harming a soul.

Suppressing or denying CDing is harmful.

[ubokvt]

When god created us, (if you Believe that) he created us with out clothes. We, useing our free will, creathed clothes to cover our selves and then decided on what was male and female. You actualy belive god is so shallow as to judge us by our clothes and not by our acts my god think about it.

[annephorcy]

First off, as has already been mentioned, the Bible can be quite problematic when read as a body of absolute laws.

I can't quote the passages and I'm not particularly motivated to go look for them right now, but I've seen the text within the Bible where slaves are commanded to be obedient to their masters and a person who is caught blending two different fabrics in his or her clothing is to be summarily stoned to death.

Beyond that, I find it very irksome that someone who believes in an all-powerful Creator can turn around and believe that very same God can be bound by some human's scribblings in some book. "Gee, Ed. I'd love to forgive you for your actions. But it clearly says right here in Chapt. 18, Verse 23 that I have no choice but to damn you to Hell. Sorry about that."

Human judges - mere, imperfect mortals - routinely temper the Rule of Law with mercy and compassion. But apparently God, whom I truly believe to be the original author of both mercy and compassion, can't.

Last but hardly least: "Then the disciple asked Him, 'Master, which is the greatest law?' And Jesus answered; 'Love and serve God with all your mind, heart and soul. And the second greatest law is like unto the first. Treat your neighbor as you would want be treated yourself."

A noted Rabbinical scholar once quoted that (paraphrased) passage as the entire substance of the Bible, "... everything else being mere commentary."

Now, if someone can tell me how crossdressing violates the spirit of those two 'greatest laws', then I might entertain the notion that it's conduct that one could be damned for engaging in.

[Kimkandy]

Well I don't now but don't Catholic priests :devil: wear dresses...

Kim

:dom: :evilbegon :evilbegon :evilbegon

[KarenSusan]

OK, my viewpoint on this is simply put; fashions change. What we consider feminine style 2,000 years ago was worn by men. The only men who had trousers were the howling barbarians up in the Scythian neck of the woods.
Romans even the simple poor folks wore tunic style clothing. This continued pretty much up through the 1300's.
That we wear clothing blended of linen and wool is breaking one of those commandments in the Pentateuch. Sooooo guess what I don't think too awfully much of the dress rules. Its so much a minor thing in life.
Now, murdering people, killing children, causing major death in cities, poisoning lives with lies....yeah that is major. I think it's a reality check, do we worry about God being angry over the socks we wore....or that person we basically left emotionally destroyed.
just me I guess.


:iagree:When was the last time you saw a depiction of Jesus Christ wearing pants?

[Darlene Rochelle]

I am a Christian,although due to my work schedule,I rarely attend Church(work on Sundays). I do what I feel is right for me. Too many fundamentalists cannot think for themselves. I do not allow some preacher to intimidate me,or preach fear to me. I can think for myself,and live my life to the best of my ability,not by what someone else says I should do.:evilbegon

[Lisa Golightly]

Paradise Lost? The signature says it all.

[kathy gg]

If they let people like Jimmy Swaggert into heaven...sign me up for hell....:devil:

[Blonde]

IMHO about the bible's passage about dressing as the opposite sex, "It means it" as you have the intent to cause harm to others by doing so.

All religions have a simular underlying theme. Do no harm. They might word it differant, but the same message is there.

We must be true to ourselves 1st, before we can be true to the "world".
Forgivness is more for yourself than for others, as I believe that not forgiving someone, poisions your own "soul".

[Sarah-Anne]

If religion says crossdressing is wrong, doesn't that tell you something fundamental about religion?

[bgirl]

Damn. How much dressing do you have to do to go to hell anyway? Can I do it till just before I go blind?

[Sierra Evon]

I my self concider my self to be a good Christian valued minded person and dressing as a girl , I have prayed and told the LORD of it many times , for me above all the Lord is my savior.......I'm strieght with the Lord as such....
I dont judge people anymore lest I myself be judged , I respect all other people's opions and belief's , but indeed a very heavy subject........Sierra:happy:

[Kimberley]

10 Commandments
Beatitudes....

Ummm nothing there about gender... This is about gender right?

Is this attitude the pronouncement of man or is it divine? I have very strong opinions on religion in all of this so I will leave it at this.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[klyde]

I always wonder about anyone who worships a god who would throw you for all eternity into a lake of fire because of the style of your underwear.

[Sarah-Anne]

I always wonder about anyone who worships a god who would throw you for all eternity into a lake of fire because of the style of your underwear.

I always wonder about anyone who worships a god.

[MarinaTwelve200]

Im a church going Christian and have no problems with Cding---I wouldnt go to Church dressed though, out of simple common sense, no more than coming to church naked.

There is really nothing wrong with CDing, as far as my knowledge of the Bible and theology goes. Of course, I'm a mainstream Methodist. you have troubles when you deal with "Fundie" (fundementalist) sects who base their dogma on "traditions" rather than actual scripture. If some old guy 300 years ago thought something was "sinful", then by golly, its sinful today, no matter how weak or "over interpreted" the scripture cited would have been.

Also you have what I call "screwball religions" who might beleive anything, but usally are based on a single line of scripture where where they are the only one doing it right and everybody else, who dosent belong to their sect, or even their church building is going to HELL. (Ya gotta kiss those rattlesnakes and have seven wives) And dont forget the "literalists" who fail to realize that the "Bible" is a translation---and might not mean exactly what it says in the english version.

To my experience those adults who dont believe in God were either raised with NO religion or had parents who belonged to a Fundie or screwball sect, that turned them off to it. They DONT KNOW what real Christianity is, so they are hardly in a position to judge. Everything they complain about--the intolerance, the dopey and dangerious beleifs, etc. are Fundie or screwball BS.

There is nothing wrong with good mainstream Churches. Most are tolerant, so long as you keep any 'disruptive" personal peculearities to your self. And the moral guidance is constructive and comforting.

[Melora]

Being a Wiccan and a huge advocate against the hypocracy of Christianity..
If I were to go to Hell.. I would be in VERY GOOD Company! :) Being with Great think-Tanks, As Well as with Many other other CDs, TGs, TS,s &DQ,s as well I AM SURE...
Just READ History and admitt, The Bible is missing A LOT OF PAGES..! :happy:
Melora

[Kate Simmons]

The basic premise of Deut.22:5 has to do with women putting on battle rainment to do war and a man posing as a woman to shirk his duty to do battle. It's thrown in between two scriptures as a side command really and has nothing to do with morality. In the nation of Isreal, each sex had it's own assigned duties to perform.Men were to defend the nation and women were in a supportive role. Ericka/Rich

[trannie T]

What do you think God cares about? How you live your life and treat others or what kind of clothing you wear?

[Jesse69]

I've actually had 2 dreams where God told me I had to quit crossdressing. But I tell God it's something I can't control. If I were to quit it would be very hard because I've accumulated a dream collection of beautiful clothes (especially over 70 skirt suits). So I would be looking for a wife who would fit my clothes. Britney Spears would be perfect as she's the same size and height as me ! 5' 4" and she's a size 6!

I wish I had my Bible with me to look this up. I'm a very good Christian and go to Mass every Sunday. Well, the most unusual thing I have ever done was ask God in the miracle baths at Lourdes to change me into a woman. I said this in my mind only but he helpers knew my wish! They called me gay.

[Kimmie W]

i find it impossible to believe that a loving God could/would condemn us for living as She/He created us. Sometimes I think we are the way we are to enable us to experience all of life's gifts. I would not change the way I am if I could, and I thank my God for that, no matter what religion.

[MarinaTwelve200]

I someone who CALLS themself a "Christian" gets on your case, ask him to back up his/her condemnation with SCRIPTURE---Odds are they cant do it. Just because someone feels uneasy about something does NOT mean its "sinful". As far as CD goes the best thing I can find "against" it are a few lines in the old testiment that condemn CDing, only if it is used to deceive for purposes of breaking the jewish law---like a woman trying to sneak into a temple with the men or a man trying to sneak into a woman's tent. Any thing else is merly third and fourth order INTERPRETATION of scripture which can be twisted to say anything.

ALSO remember what PAUL said about other Christian Religious sects. People in different places are gonna worship and honor God differently. The ONLY thing that really matters, in the christian Context, is "Christ Crucified". Its the ONLY thing they have to acknowledge. EVERYTHING ELSE is only those people's particular way of honoring GOD. We are susposed to respect their "odd" beleifs or ways of doing things, and THEY, on the other hand, are suposed to respect ours. (Its true---In Corinthians someplace)

That means any other Christian who criticizes your version of Christianity (other than the Christ crucified part) is NOT acting "Christian" and is against the teachings of PAUL. No one is gonna go to hell for listening to the "wrong" music or using the "wrong" technique for Babtisim. Etc.

[noname]

I would love to hear from any Christians who dress regularly, how they handle this thought and if any one agress with me.

Thanks girls for allowing me the space for such a "heavy" subject, but with lots of fodder for thought.

Marcie

Good post. In fact initially I had asked myself the same type of questions. Could I go to hell for not wearing traditional mens clothing? After much thought I came to the conclusion that it would be unlikely. Here was my reasoning.

As I've mentioned many times, pre 1960's ( give or take ) pants were a "mens only item". There are still churches today that teach a women wearing pants will go to hell. Being 98% of women wear pants, does that mean every single one of them is going to hell? I find that unlikely. So would I got to hell for wearing womens jeans or pants?

I feel the only time it would really be an issue, is if the dressing was done for some deceptive wrong intentions. I doubt anyone here is dressing to be hurtful to anyone.

I asks this, what does God have a bigger problem with?

1: a guy wearing a skirt because he likes the garment?
2: the lady thinking the guy is a pervert while she is wearing a skirt?

From what I've read, it seems God talks more about hypocrisy and judging than he does what people are wearing.

Just my two cents, and I could be 100% wrong.

[Jestina]

Oivay!!!

Such a thread!!!

Ok I will reveal a little more persoanl stuff...I guess.

I have read the Bible many times.
I have taught on it many times.

Not any more though...EVER.

My post secondary psychological studies were taken in a seminary school.
Meaning that my credentials may be tied to religious studies.
Ok they are ok?

I have one thing to say about this, according to the deepest meaning of scriptures that pertain to anything remotely to do with salvation,
You don't go to hell for dressing in womens clothes.
Or for a lot of other things, you go to hell for rejecting God's greatest free gift of salvation. According to the strictest definition anyway.

Sooo and I also agree with whoever said
"If you are truly not a Christian then it doesn't matter at all what God thinks"

This is something I tried for years to get Bible thumpers to realize.
What possible good is it to quote Bible verses to people who do not beleive in God or may in fact be Hindu or Buddist?

If you are in fact going to hell, then have a great time NOW. Make sure it is worth it.

Like they say:
"Don't do the crime if you can't do the eternity"
Or something like that.

Jestina.

[Scotty]

I said it before, God created us as he wanted us.

But that said lets look at the argument that the Catholic church presented when it was said that John the Baptist was Mary Magdallen.
THey claimed it was not and that JOhn was in fact very femme and possibly a cross-dresser/TG.

well I don't buy their argument personally but they kind of stuck their foot in their mouth or it's true - that Jesus did not care.

I honestly believe if we have a gene that makes us more female or femme, then it was meant to be that way.

Do you follow the ten commandments generally?

I believe dressing is the least of problems on this planet, Murder, lying, cheating, stealing all fall into a MAJOR sin category.

Life your life with honor, do not worry about the guilt that a group of MEN will lay on you. These MEN tend to be controlling and I believe it falls out of the way of what Jesus wanted in that it's not about controlling everyone to be there Sunday or controlling everyone to donate to the church - it's about worshipping Jesus and God........

That's my opinion......

[Kimkandy]

Damn. How much dressing do you have to do to go to hell anyway?

Not sure, but I guess you might want to try wearing a lot of :devil: red for when you get there... a nice :gorgeous: red dress with matching red shoes.

Kim

:dom: :angry: :angry: :angry: :wasntme:

[Sarah Rabbit]

Hey look..If I go to Hell, I'll be too busy shaking hands with old friends to worry about anything else:D

Sarah R. :bunny:

[crusadergirl]

I agree with Jennifer we are in hell so why worry.

I can't go to a place that i am already living in.
Plus thats a human belief not the way of the dragon.

[Dee]

when i stand before the Lord on my judgment day, im sure i have to answer to much greater sins than putting on a bra and pair of panties.

Dee

[AmberTG]

Something else to remember, most bible scholars will tell you that there is no place in the bible where it actually says that the book was written by God or through his inspiration. It was entirely written by men with an agenda. The first of the 4 gospels was written well after the crucifiction. The 4 gospels all differ in details.
Leviticus and Deuteronomy are rules of personal and social order imposed on the Jewish people by themselves for maintaining social order and structure, health and sanitation in a world where plagues and deseases killed many other people. the Deuteronomy 22 passages in whole are about creating/maintaining social order and health. One key word in the original language of Deut. here is the word "Toevah" which has the translated sense of "because to do so will make you ill/sick." In many places in Deut. "Toevah" has been mis-translated to the word "abomination" which is really sad, it changes the entire meaning of the passage.
Read Deut. 23:10-13, which talks about the need to carry a shovel to dig a hole to masturbate into, requiring one to go outside of town if one has a "wet dream" and not return until the next day, after bathing.
No one alive today is God enough to be able to say which of the Deut. rules are still in effect and which ones can be overlooked, even Jesus said that those rules were made by man, not by God.
The book of Genesis is very clear that we are all made in God's image, male AND female. It does not say that we were made male OR female, it does not say that there is a binary society. Each of us has both male and female in us, how could it be bad for us to express both sides of our inner being? I would say that we go against God by denying that other part of us that he created in us.

[Misty_cder]

Having grown up going to catholic grade school, high school, and college hearing the nuns telling us boys are boys and girls are girls, period seems like yesterday. Now that I am wiser, and not agreeing with the Catholic chuch much these days, I feel the same as many who have posted replies to this thread. As long as you have good morals and help your fellow human in the time of need, who cares if it is done while wearing a dress. In the long run, God will judge us on other issues other than our style of dress.

[Rita Knight]

I once said this on Yahoo! Buzz because of all the gay bashing I saw for their announcement of National Coming Out Day. If I am going to hell for crossdressing, I hope I am joined by every parent who has disowned their children simply for being gay, lesbian or transgender. One of the ideas of Christian fundamentalism that I absolutely abhor is the idea of literal in-errancy of the Bible, that every word is literally true.

[christine55]

I go through my ups and downs spiritually. I can't really say that it is perfectly allright to crossdress, but then again I cant say it is perfectly allright to smoke cigarettes, to lie, to not feel love for everyone, to crave money or success, to be unhappy with ones station in life, to feel lust for someone not ones wife, on and on and on. Jesus did not come into the world to judge sinners but to save them, ;which includes all of us. What sins does your sister in law have? Maybe one of your sins is not beleiving Gods mercy? I really do not know. I do know that God deals with each and every one of us individually. I was once advised by a very good Christian to crossdress WITH Jesus instead of closing him off in my guilt. Crossdressing is something that is very deeply ingrained in most of us and it is not removed in a day, and maybe it never will be. I try to read my Bible every day and to be open to it. I am getting to the point where I can easily forgo getting dressed to do things which ought to be done and don't feel awful when I do dress up. I try to be open to God's will, at times more successfully than others, and make every effort that my trust is in God, not in what I feel to be right at any given time. We are all wrong in so many ways. God will take his people to the place where he wants them to be. I do not know where that will turn out to be. It might be good to remind your sister that it also says in the Bible that "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." I think your sister in law is indeed a Christian but is very misguided in the way she is presenting her beleifs to you.
Best Wishes
Hugs, Christine

[Sarah-Anne]

To my experience those adults who dont believe in God were either raised with NO religion or had parents who belonged to a Fundie or screwball sect, that turned them off to it. They DONT KNOW what real Christianity is, so they are hardly in a position to judge. Everything they complain about--the intolerance, the dopey and dangerious beleifs, etc. are Fundie or screwball BS.

There is nothing wrong with good mainstream Churches. Most are tolerant, so long as you keep any 'disruptive" personal peculearities to your self. And the moral guidance is constructive and comforting.

There are 667 ‘sins’ listed in the Bible. The act of murdering your own children is given as a necessity if they worship other gods, but paedophilia is not once mentioned as an immoral act. If I met God (which is physically impossible as he does not exist), I'd ask him why I, and billions of my fellow earthlings, have better morals than him.

Oh, and why he let the Holocaust happen.

And why he approves of slavery.

And genocide.

And rape.

And homophobia.

And child abuse.

[Kate Simmons]

The Creator has very little to do with what goes on here. This was an agreement made long ago. We "make" or "break" our own world.There is a group that has a specific agenda to dominate everyone on Earth. Depending upon how much we allow that group to hold sway is our choice. There is a time coming soon, however, when we will all have to show what we are made of. Negative thinking and energies attempt to dominate the scene. Positive energy and positive people will win out in the end. Negative just does not work and never did. If we are positive, we become secure within ourselves and eventually it includes others. Positive energy and thinking is additive, negative thinking and energy is subtractive, just remember that. We are the masters of our own destinies more than we may think. It's just easier to defer that energy and thinking to something or someone else and just sit by waiting. Bottom line is:"Ya snooze, ya lose", simple as that.:happy: Ericka/Rich

[janet p]

Caroline,Elly I believe you both hit the nail on the head. I had a priest that was teaching bible class that it doesn't matter if you go to church every day or not but that you truely believe in him you will go to heaven. It also says in the bible we we're all made in his image?:love:

[JulieCDorlando]

hello,
For what it is worth I would like to interject an opinion on this. God, the devine creator of everything in the heavens and the earth created all of us. God put our DNA together. God put our personalities together. God knew all about us, our thoughts and deeds way ahead before all of us were born into this world. God is all knowing and all wise. Our crossdressing is something God knew about before we came to be, this lifestyle did not catch God off guard.
Whether this is a sin or not can only be determined by you and God. Christians that condemn us can not send us to hell. God in his infinate ways set up rules that we all are to go by to live a righteous and holy life. In the old testament humans were bound by jewish law. Due to the many restrictions of that law that humans could not live by, Jesus came into the world to set us free from that law.
Most christians quite often judge others with a holier than thou mentality. God doesn't allow one person to judge or condem another. You will know the person by their fruits. Only God can judge. Christians are suppose to witness to others and pray for the lost, not condemn them. God gave us free will to do as we all wish. We either come to His Son, and confess, and repent, or we go on our merry way. Everyone needs to come to Jesus Christ for redemption of their sins, and believe that HE is the Son of God. Once the Lord comes into a person and lives, a transformation takes place.
If you have a loving heart, love and worship God, have compassion towards people less fortunate that you, and have asked the Lord into your heart, then you are one of God's own. No one has a right to judge us. For if they do, they will be judged by the very same standards that they have judged us by. :2c:

[Teresa Amina]

It also says in the bible we we're all made in his image

So that's the problem! And I just want to look like a woman...:D

[Marcie Sexton]

It amazes me of the response I got from this question and thoughts.

I would love my neice to read some of these thoughts...

Thanks girls

Marcie

[suanne]

It amazes me of the response I got from this question and thoughts.

I would love my neice to read some of these thoughts...

Thanks girls

Marcie

Yep. Bet for the most part she wouldn't change her mind one bit. Tell you the truth I think most of the posts made in this thread tell you what is a general thinking on biblical things. I think some of you need to read the bible. Some know it and are confused. Others know it and turn the other cheek so to say. Bottom line. Believe what you want. I do! But no matter what you believe there will only be one "true" answer when this life is done. Hope you have chosen the correct path. Think on this: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Suanne.

Just one more and then I will shut up. It was said here that the bible was not inspired and no place in scripture does it say that. Well it does. II Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspriation of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[Sarah-Anne]

hello,
For what it is worth I would like to interject an opinion on this. God, the devine creator of everything in the heavens and the earth created all of us. God put our DNA together. God put our personalities together. God knew all about us, our thoughts and deeds way ahead before all of us were born into this world. God is all knowing and all wise. Our crossdressing is something God knew about before we came to be, this lifestyle did not catch God off guard.
Whether this is a sin or not can only be determined by you and God. Christians that condemn us can not send us to hell. God in his infinate ways set up rules that we all are to go by to live a righteous and holy life. In the old testament humans were bound by jewish law. Due to the many restrictions of that law that humans could not live by, Jesus came into the world to set us free from that law.
Most christians quite often judge others with a holier than thou mentality. God doesn't allow one person to judge or condem another. You will know the person by their fruits. Only God can judge. Christians are suppose to witness to others and pray for the lost, not condemn them. God gave us free will to do as we all wish. We either come to His Son, and confess, and repent, or we go on our merry way. Everyone needs to come to Jesus Christ for redemption of their sins, and believe that HE is the Son of God. Once the Lord comes into a person and lives, a transformation takes place.
If you have a loving heart, love and worship God, have compassion towards people less fortunate that you, and have asked the Lord into your heart, then you are one of God's own. No one has a right to judge us. For if they do, they will be judged by the very same standards that they have judged us by. :2c:


I believe in the celestial teapot. It orbits the sun between Earth and Mars. You cannot prove that it doesn't exist because it is too small to be detected by any human means. Therefore my teapot has exactly the same case for existence as your god.

[carolinewalker_2000]

Don't bother with the teapot; read Terry Pratchett and you would know that the world is flat;rests on the back of 4 elephants; who, in turn, are standing on the back of a gaint turtle swimming through space!!

(Anyone else a fan of the "Discworld" novels?)

[MsJanessa]

Having grown up going to catholic grade school, high school, and college hearing the nuns telling us boys are boys and girls are girls, period seems like yesterday. Now that I am wiser, and not agreeing with the Catholic chuch much these days, I feel the same as many who have posted replies to this thread. As long as you have good morals and help your fellow human in the time of need, who cares if it is done while wearing a dress. In the long run, God will judge us on other issues other than our style of dress.

Did you get to wear those cute skirts?

[MarinaTwelve200]

There are 667 ‘sins’ listed in the Bible. The act of murdering your own children is given as a necessity if they worship other gods, but paedophilia is not once mentioned as an immoral act. If I met God (which is physically impossible as he does not exist), I'd ask him why I, and billions of my fellow earthlings, have better morals than him.

Oh, and why he let the Holocaust happen.

And why he approves of slavery.

And genocide.

And rape.

And homophobia.

And child abuse.



Thats YOUR idea of what "GOD" is supposed to be--that he shouldnt let bad things happen, etc. GOD is WHO HE IS and does not conform to the 'ideals" or "moral codes" of any of us lowly humans.----Ya gotta get to KNOW God whether you like him or not.

A lot of the "negative stuff" we hear comes from the OLD testiment and is taken out of the context of the dire situations the Isralites were facing. Killing another human may not be "good", but you certianly have to do it in the case of war or self defense.

As A Scientist I CAN say with confidence that there IS at least a "Creative Intellegence" inherent in the universe. Random evolution cannot account for the complexity of higly developed systems, like birds and humans in a mere 10 billion year age of the universe (I beleive in evolutoin, but a "Directed" form of evolution) We can call that force "God" if we like.

Sins are NOT VIOLATIONS of God's Law , but SHORT COMINGS to our 'perfection'--That what SIN means--a "shortfall " of the goal like missing a target.

This WORLD is not "perfect", nor was it meant to be. It is a "compromise system"--where BAD THINGS DO HAPPEN. We are here to prove to God that we can 'take it"---he only wants "intellegences" with free will that can function in adverse conditions.---for whatever work we will be doing in a parallel universe some call 'heaven"

HELL, BTW, means "realm of the dead"--like the Greek Hades or the Jewish Sheol.---The spirits of Everybody who dies goes there by default.--its a cleaver synomnym for being DEAD.---Not necessarily a place of fire and punishment.

The Premise of "Christianity" is that if you let Jesus take on your KARMA (sin debt) your spirit will function at a "higher level" when you shed your body and you will be in a state of eternal "life" unlike those others sould trapped in the dead world of Hell. (Hell is the nordic word translation of the dead world such as hadies)

Other religions have their ways of escaping to the higher level of "imortality" Im just speaking about the Christian version here----I also beleive in "reincarnation BTW" and can reconcile THAt to Christianity too---The bible says nothing against it, and really can be interpreted as being supportive--depending on the words we use in the concept.

[Jesse69]

I just worry that crossdressing makes me impure or unclean in God's eye so that I wouldn't be worthy of heaven. I beleive there is a Hell and I don't wanna go there! Like 3 days in prison was hell.

[Michellebej]

Marcie,

The short answer is no. Yes; there is a prohibition of it in Deut. This is the same book that tells us to:

Execute Women that are raped in a city.
Wear Clothing that has tassles on all four corners.
Do not mix wool and cotton.
Do not charge interest to any who are not foreigners.
Do not eat Pork
Do not eat unleavend bread.
ect, ect.

Now then, we as Christians believe that we have a new covenant with God. Which means that unless Christ specifically reafirmed a law from the Old Test. then those Old Testament laws are null and void.

Christ never mentioned the Cross dressing thing.

Now he did mention adultury. It is mentioned 41 times in the Bible as opposed to once for CDing. And;if you are having sex with anyone other than your FIRST ( unless you are a Widow/er) then you are by Biblical defination commiting Adultery.

Guess which God is saying he hates more? 'Course you will hardly ever hear a minister rail at the unmarried couples in the church. But; boy try to show up in a dress!

Duet. is just used by bigots who only want to use it for those things they don't like. And; who will ignore those things that they do themselves.

Listen to what the Lord says, and not the idiots.

Love

Michelle

[Sexy_Jennifer]

Concepts like 'God', 'Heaven', and 'Hell' are so completely empty and devoid of meaning that I would find it all extremely comical were it not for the amount of suffering these illusory ideas cause. Honestly, there can be no validity to human life while it is still blighted by the shockingly primitive practise of 'religion'.

In any case, the reality we already find ourselves in is in fact grim enough. I said earlier that we are already in Hell, and I attach a short essay I wrote a couple of months back explaining why current human reality is a more miserable place than the Christian idea of Hell could ever be!

So cross-dress, and enjoy life while you can. And if God will punish you for it, that is just all the more reason to do it, to show God up as the petty psychopath he surely must be, and revel in the knowledge that you are a nicer and more well-balanced person than He could ever be!

[sissystephanie]

As a Convert to the Catholic Church, I consider myself to be a very good Christian. So did my dear departed wife, who bought me the matching white satin lingerie I wore on our wedding day. I have never worn a dress, or a skirt, to church but only because too many of my friends don't know about my CD activites. I have gone to Church wearing other feminine apparel.

I believe God cares about what kind of a person we are, not what we wear! Yes, there are passages in the Old Testament about wearing the clothes of the opposite sex. But scholars have said that those passages referred to trying to get into places where a man, or woman, did not belong.
Besides, God is forgiving. Putting on panties, etc., is not a Mortal Sin. Just be the good person you should be and all will be well. I don't think our Compassionate God will send you to Eternal Damnation for what you are wearing!!

Sissy

More Girl than man

[JennaKnots]

I was rasied catholic and always had big resentments with the church - until recently. A good friend of mine got re-commited to cathlolicism and actually uses it as a spiritual tool to be kind to others and himself (what a thought, huh?)

It seems to me that more and more, I see people substituting principle with ritual or spirituality with religion. I know many devout "christians" who are anything but christian in the true sense of the word. Likewise I know many atheists who are among the most spiritual of anyone.

The particular path one decides to take up the mountain, in my mind, is far less important than the results of the trip. If our untertaking of a religious calling is based in fear, intolerance and ego, then I can't possibly see how that can result in spirituality and a connection to god, self and society.

The real questions, IMHO (and can't you see that I'm, like, sooo humble ;)), are not whether we say a certain type of prayer, or wear women's clothing, but whether we're honest and loving while recognizing our own humanity.

Religious dogma (of all religions) changes frequently based on reasons that are seldomly rooted in god. Usually things that are practical for a society, or even more usually, for power and profit.

The principles of christianity are wonderful, they also happen to be the same principles of every other religion on the planet.

Love is where you find it.

[Bridget]

I'm not particularly religious, I consider myself somewhere between Dawkins Agnosticism and Joseph Campbell.

I think that crossdressing is the least of our worries if there is a heaven or hell. Our other actions are as likely if not more so to damn us. Nobody lives a perfect sin free life, and the odds of picking the right religion are very tiny. And then there's the possibility of reincarnation, which is rather scary, given that population growth is highhest in war and poverty torn areas.

Despite this bleak outlook of mine, I think the take home message is to live a full and happy life, maximizing your happiness, and minimizing your harm on others.

[Holly]

*Shameless Plug Mode ON*

If questions such as this thread is based on are of interest to you, then perhaps you would like to join us in the Religion Discussion Group. Simply click here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/profile.php?do=editusergroups) and select Join Religion Discussion Group. If you have any questions I'd love to hear from you via PM or email.

*Shameless Plug Mode DISABLED*

To answer the question, hell is for unrepentant sinners who have not accepted Jesus Christ as their LORD and Savior. (You did ask for responses from Christians, right;) ). Since I have accepted Jesus as my personal Savior and confessed my sins, hell is not my destination of choice. Now, is Crossdressing a sin? That happens to be a topic in the Religion Discussion Group. Come check it out...

[Jammie Lyann]

As I was growing up I went to a southern Baptist church, ( they blieve you must dress prim an proper to be accepted by the good lord. )
There was a plaque on the wall of one of the class rooms that read :
Dress well for the lord is watching you.
To this day I wholly believe that the good lord will choose a Bum from off the street before he chooses someone that dresses well, to me it is all in your faith an how you treat others around you.
I personlly dont think the good lord cares one way or the other what we wear.
If your one that believe that when you pass over that your spirit leaves this place, Then we also would not have personal items with us, So rightful what would it matter, have fun be who you are while your here.

[Sarah-Anne]

Dawkins Agnosticism

Dawkins is not agnostic: he is an atheist.Agnostic means, to put it in short, "undecided". Atheist means "no god".

It shocks me that so many crossdressers are theists (well, it shocks me that anyone can believe in the invisible sky-fairy, but that is another matter). I always thought that crossdressers, like myself, were people who could "think outside the box," because they live a lifestyle that is unorthodox. The orthodox way of thinking about religion is to subscribe to it, as history has shown us (by orthodox, I definitely do not mean right, simply "most common"), and the most orthodox way of thinking about CDing is to abhor it, but those with a modicum of reason and logic can work things out for themselves instead of following the blind herd, and realise that (a) there cannot be a god and (b) crossdressing is not wrong.

[Rachel Newark]

Don't bother with the teapot; read Terry Pratchett and you would know that the world is flat;rests on the back of 4 elephants; who, in turn, are standing on the back of a gaint turtle swimming through space!!

(Anyone else a fan of the "Discworld" novels?)


"The Turtle Moves !"

Rachel Newark

[Rachel Newark]

It shocks me that so many crossdressers are theists (well, it shocks me that anyone can believe in the invisible sky-fairy, but that is another matter). I always thought that crossdressers, like myself, were people who could "think outside the box," because they live a lifestyle that is unorthodox. The orthodox way of thinking about religion is to subscribe to it, as history has shown us (by orthodox, I definitely do not mean right, simply "most common"), and the most orthodox way of thinking about CDing is to abhor it, but those with a modicum of reason and logic can work things out for themselves instead of following the blind herd, and realise that (a) there cannot be a god and (b) crossdressing is not wrong.[/QUOTE]


Spot on!

The single most infuriating thing about most religions is not that they believe in a God or Gods, if that's what they want to do - fine, live and let live and all that. It's the insistance that because they believe that 'their' supreme deity wants them to behave in a certain way, then I must follow the same set of rules, irrespective of my thoughts on the matter. Closely followed by the presumption I came across in New Mexico that I automatically believed in the same things that they did.
" Um, you're a Brit, yes? "
"Yes"
" So you're an Anglican? "
Thinks ' what's he talking about... oh religion!'
"No, I'm an Atheist"
Stunned disbelief ensued...

Hey Ho !

Rachel Newark

[27th Jennifer]

Part of being a true Christian is not judging others.

HMMMMM....That's what I always heard, but things don't seem to go that way all that much anymore. Will the lord care what clothes we enjoy wearing? If there is one, I doubt it. In the cosmic sense, I don't think there is any harm in crossdressing. How could it possibly matter? And yes, styles and trends do change drastically over time, so who's to say what is really appropriate dress anyway?:2c:

[CharleneCD]

As I was growing up I went to a southern Baptist church, ( they blieve you must dress prim an proper to be accepted by the good lord. )
There was a plaque on the wall of one of the class rooms that read :
Dress well for the lord is watching you.
To this day I wholly believe that the good lord will choose a Bum from off the street before he chooses someone that dresses well, to me it is all in your faith an how you treat others around you.
I personlly dont think the good lord cares one way or the other what we wear.
If your one that believe that when you pass over that your spirit leaves this place, Then we also would not have personal items with us, So rightful what would it matter, have fun be who you are while your here.

I spent some time in a southern baptist church. Everyone made sure to dress fancy. I didn't have any really nice clothes, but I wanted to learn about god. But because I didnt dress up as nice and I smoked at the time I was openly snubbed by some of the other members. Nice Christian attitude huh.

My views are simple. THERE IS A GOD. Things have happened in my life that keep me from saying otherwise. Overall I believe God is more concerned with what is on the inside rather than what we wear on the outside. (OK maybe not an I Love Satan tshirt):D I am much less concerned about going to hell for wearing a skirt than I am for those Sunday best wearing hate mongers.

[celtic.blue.eyes]

If CD's are all hell bound for what they wear, that means that just about all women are going there too - for wearing pants!

So if the Bible is to be taken 100% seriously, word for word, get rid of the english (translated) version and go back to the original scriptures in their native language. A lot gets messed up in a translation. For instance, take the 4th commandment "Thou shalt not kill". It clearly does not specify what should not be killed. Thou shalt not kill a chicken? Thou shalt not kill a fly? Thou shalt not kill a a head of lettuce? Are these acts all the mortal sins that the church professes that will get us an instant trip to hell upon our demise? The answer lies in the messed up translation, which was originally "Thou shat not murder."

So use a little common sense. Accept what God made you, develop the good and dump those things that may harm someone else. I don't see how wearing clothes is wrong. There is no moral dress code. Just look what the men wore inthe 1700's - lace, ruffles, knee highs, large buckes on their shoes, long curly wigs etc.

In your case, I sense that you have guilt feelings about CD'ing. The CD'ing will not go away - it's an integral part of what God made you. Accept what His decision was and develop it. It will give you much more insight into the way a GG thinks and feels. If he gave you the the artistic ability to be another Rembrandt, it wouldn't be right to feel guilty about it and not develop it!

How do I know all this? Been there, been through it and doing it. I only wish I had come to terms with it at a younger age, rather than letting half my life pass by without enjoying it to it's fullest.

[Dawn D.]

Have any othersin here ever read Sylvia Brownes book "The Other Side"? I am reading it now. How it relates to this thread, to me is quite relevant. First and foremost is that she claims to have a true and deep belief in God. Were it not for this I might have more reservations about her thoughts. Her main theme in this book is that we have all lived lives on Earth many times before(Reincarnation). I'm not totally convinced on this yet, though it is interesting. Another of her thoughts throughout this book is that God is in Home (Heaven) and that there is no Hell. She feels that God only loves all and banishes no one. This to me make more sense than outright condemning a soul to eternal Hell for the smallest of sins.


Dawn

[ReginaK]

I pay it no mind. If I can go to Hell for crossdressing, then i'm definitely going to hell for all the other things i've done. And if I don't go to hell for crossdressing, i'm still going for all the other things i've done.

So since i'm going either way you slice it, might as well make the most of it while i'm here.

[Shelly Preston]

Going to hell
As most if not all religions preach that those who don't not follow ther teachings will go to hell we have a problem

So this means as we are not a member of their religion we go to hell


So I guess that means we are all going to hell

And crossdressing never even needed a mention

[MarinaTwelve200]

Going to hell
As most if not all religions preach that those who don't not follow ther teachings will go to hell we have a problem

So this means as we are not a member of their religion we go to hell


So I guess that means we are all going to hell

And crossdressing never even needed a mention

Actually THATS the main HALLMARK or "warning sign" of a "screwball" religion. If you are in one of these groups you need to get out. Any sect(of Christianity or other) That preaches that only those of that particular sect---(and even that particular congregation sometimes) are the only ones going to "saved"---and everybody elese in ALL the world is going to HELL is a religion a reasonable person does NOT wanna be in. It can eventually cause ite members to becomed disillusioned with ALL religon and faith in God alltogether, or lead to tradgedy in many cases. The exclusiveness, and lack of joy in its members is another sign and is anything BUT "Christian", although they often call themselves that.

I say its good to belong to a religious orginization, but one has to be careful of the strange groups out there. Those who have little ideas of what God or christianity is about are most vunerable to being sucked in.

Just because a group calls itself "Christian", "Jewish" "Moslem" or whatever, dosent mean it is so. Thats why I prefer established "mainstream" sects (Christian in my case) Such as Methodists or Episcopals Catholics are OK (I used to be one) if you can tolerate the odd rules and traditions. Baptists are usually OK too, but there are splinter groups of this sect that can become over "fundimentalist". And there might be a few "Screwball" congregations. But most "Screwball" churches are usually smallish, independent affairs, sometimes haveing only one church. I dont agree at all with Jehovah Witnesses or Mormons, but all and all, I think they are "safe" despite , IMHO some peculear beleifs.

[Blonde]

All are going to hell,
except the CDs/TVs/TSs and the GGs and others who support us:devil: :D

[Mellisa S.]

This topic has striked quite a chord with me. I have recently converted from an agnostic to a christian and am starting to read the Bible for the first time with not only a mature mind, but with a sense that it will help me with my life. Now up until it was brought up, I did not know about Deut. 22:5 and while I have found many things in the bible that pertain to things that are currently going on, I have to wonder about that one. I realize of course that when that was written there were no such things as mini skirts, make-up, panyhose and bras. But I can't help but wonder if the reason for my anxiety when it comes to crossdressing is not related to that particular passage.

I go through many phases when it comes to my dressing, some days I can not stand it, other days I can't wait to do it. Ever since I have accepted Christ into my life, my dressing has slowed down, but most of it is due to me having a busier schedule. Could my busy schedule be a coincedence or could it be Christ's way of letting me let go of crossdressing. I do not know the answer and I probably will never know.

Before I became Religous, I was bothered by crossdressing, I was hoping that maybe I would find out that it is ok, but now after that passage, I do have to wonder. Please keep this thread going, I need to read more feedback into this as now I am more confused then ever.

[Jestina]

As I was growing up I went to a southern Baptist church, ( they blieve you must dress prim an proper to be accepted by the good lord. )
There was a plaque on the wall of one of the class rooms that read :
Dress well for the lord is watching you.
To this day I wholly believe that the good lord will choose a Bum from off the street before he chooses someone that dresses well, to me it is all in your faith an how you treat others around you..

WOW WOW and again I say WOW!!!!!!!

What a stupid hurtful ignorant plaque to put on a church wall!!!

I have had much to do with churches over the years, and I am stunned at how stupid and arrogant religious people can be!!!

Did no one in that church ever read the story of the wedding feast? Where the streets were combed for beggars to fill the seats?

Or the story where brethren were admonished to not show favour to those with money and give equal seats to the poor?
(and smelly * my paraphrase)

Absolutely "vomitrocious".

Jestina.

[noname]

If CD's are all hell bound for what they wear, that means that just about all women are going there too - for wearing pants!

Thanks sarah. I know this not popular with GG's and imo mostly because they know it's true. It amazes me though how many styles of pants are considered for women only. Still, I know they are mens clothing. Reminds me, I need to pick up some gouchos and capris.

[ReneeCD]

Deuteronomy 22:5. Aaah yes, a verse dear to me.

When I first came upon it, I was, like a lot of 'sisters', shocked and crestfallen. However, after more study and discussion with theologians, I found this:

At the time this was written, one of the prevalent religions of the Phoenecians (Caananites) was the worship of Baal. One (or several) of the ceremonies involved crossdressing by the priests. If you look in the margin notes of, say, a Jerusalem bible, which has annotations made by scholors much more learned than any of us, you'll find that this was primarily why garment exchange was proscribed (not prescribed!) by the authors. This is one of the many reasons why I'm so dead set against people reading the KJV of the bible as a source. The language is obscure and confusing for those of us living in the 21st century. Do yourself a favor and get a more modern version of the Bible to study that can aide rather than confuse you.

Renee

[MarinaTwelve200]

Deuteronomy 22:5. Aaah yes, a verse dear to me.

When I first came upon it, I was, like a lot of 'sisters', shocked and crestfallen. However, after more study and discussion with theologians, I found this:

At the time this was written, one of the prevalent religions of the Phoenecians (Caananites) was the worship of Baal. One (or several) of the ceremonies involved crossdressing by the priests. If you look in the margin notes of, say, a Jerusalem bible, which has annotations made by scholors much more learned than any of us, you'll find that this was primarily why garment exchange was proscribed (not prescribed!) by the authors. This is one of the many reasons why I'm so dead set against people reading the KJV of the bible as a source. The language is obscure and confusing for those of us living in the 21st century. Do yourself a favor and get a more modern version of the Bible to study that can aide rather than confuse you.

Renee
I Agree---While the KJV is a nice work of art, and was remarkable in its time, It can cause a lot of confusion and conflict today. The use of obsolete words, words that have changed meaning over the years and flaws in translation, render this book usless for working out the finer points of God's word in present times. One flaw--"Thou Shalt not Kill" for example,has caused a lot of needless controversy---The original words were "Thou shalt not commit murder"--a BIG difference. Also the word HELL is used for the original greek and hebrew text words, for "The grave" , "the garbage pit", "the realm of the dead", in addition to the place for enernal punishment---This can make a big difference too. The word "sin" used for both a violation of God's law and falling short of a goal , and then you have to contend with "figures of speech" that never were meant to be taken litterally---Only being displaced in time and culture makes their real meaning very obscure. Is it any wonder why the "Bible Litteralists" who rely on the KJV seem a bit odd and hold strange beleifs.

Unless one can read ancient Hebrew and Greek, I suggest using THE NEW ENGLISH Version, or Revised Standard or New International----and even better, ALL of them at the same time---as some words have no english equvalent and may be translated differently in each book---Compaire to get the correct meaning. Yes, getting Christian theology "straight" is hard work. but rewarding. Most of the critics have never read the Bible through even ONCE.

And I'll say one more thing. As a Scientist, I can say that I have never found any real "Conflict" between the WORDS of the Bible and Science. Controversey comes from those who rely on traditional INTERPRETATIONS made hundreds of years ago, when we didn't know as mush about the world as we do now. Indeed, our Science even helps us understand the Bible, in many respects. Those who say the Bible and Science are at odds, do not know enough about one or the other. Do not confuse the Bible itself with RELIGION.

[Theresa(TGirl)]

Also, don't forget:
a) we are reading the bible in translation and translations differ in interpretation
b) the bible contradicts itself a lot
c) fundimentalists only ever quote the bits of the bible that suit them & rarely seem to be prepared to enter into a debate about other passages which may not support their point of view.

a) is like what happens when one translates from language to language, different words have different meanings in some languages

c) always happens, even without the Bible, think about elections.....