MTF in the company men

[Maggie Kay]

One of the opportunities that this forum offers is that we can compare our experiences. For me this is important to help me know that I am part of this group, i.e. a TG person. I have questions about my life and the tendencies that I have in day to day living. One of the characteristics that I have is that for the last twenty years, 99% of my time is spent either alone or in the company of females. As an MTF it strikes me that a part of my attitude and life outlook is influenced by females around me and perhaps more importantly, the lack of male companionship. I am self employed and most of my customers are male. Other than an occasional phone call, I normally deal with them via email or on discussion forums. rarely one does come to visit or even more rare, I attend an event in my field and the whole thing is dominated by males. I feel very much like I am on Mars at these times. I have an emotional stress over the event and sometimes it takes me a very long time after the event to calm down. It is very unpleasant for me in the company of males. I don't act right, think like them or relate to their issues. I'm not saying they are bad or have a ikkk factor just that it is so hard when they think I am like them and I certainly am not. I feel like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
This brings me to my question, do you think that my feelings about males are due to my lack of interaction with them or that I am really not like them. Of course, this second condition would be that inside I am female....

Kay

[CaptLex]

I have an emotional stress over the event and sometimes it takes me a very long time after the event to calm down. It is very unpleasant for me in the company of males. I don't act right, think like them or relate to their issues. I'm not saying they are bad or have a ikkk factor just that it is so hard when they think I am like them and I certainly am not. I feel like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

This brings me to my question, do you think that my feelings about males are due to my lack of interaction with them or that I am really not like them. Of course, this second condition would be that inside I am female....
I think I can relate somewhat. I have a lot of female friends because I had to live as a female for so long and was socialized as a female, so I did make friends with the girls - mostly for survival reasons, but not exclusively. I have never felt very comfortable in a large group of women, but do fine one-on-one, or in a small group. In a large group I also feel overwhelmed, like I don't belong and need to calm down after. As I transition, I want to keep my female friendships and develop more male ones, but I'll have to keep it to small or individual meetings.

In your case, it could be that your lack of male interaction is a factor, but I'm sure the fact that you don't relate to them completely is also a factor. Do what makes you comfortable (as much as possible). Good luck. :happy:

[Calliope]

This brings me to my question, do you think that my feelings about males are due to my lack of interaction with them or that I am really not like them.

Well, there's gotta be a reason you lack contact with men - and it's probably you can't relate to that type of relationship (speaking very generally - competitive, aloof, activity-centered, etc.). If women gravitate towards you, then, there's probably something to it.

The only time I could really enjoy 'male bonding' was within the rock band context - the trust required to perform together seemed almost 'female.' Sometimes men have responded to me as a female - only very intutitively; as a sister - and that's nice.

[Vannacd]

Is your isolation from men self-imposed? As a TG, I gravitate to and relate easily to women and prefer their company socially.

I have to socialize with men at work, which does not come easily to me and I've had to teach myself how to do it. I still find it difficult to relate to men as "one of them". As a TG it would be easier for me to relate to men not with me as a man but with me as a woman.

I really believe that, for whatever reasons: socialization, testosterone vs estrogen, etc, men and women behave differently on some intuitive or emotional level. One of the reasons I see myself a TG is that I relate easily to (other) woman and not so easily with men. Might be the same for you.

[Maggie Kay]

My isolation just sort of happened but I did withdraw from men's groups over the years. For example, I used to belong to a men's golf club and a local country club. They let me join even though I wasn't a member. It was OK for a few days because everybody was being nice to the new guy. Then I noticed that while I would be supporting and encouraging of my fellow player's game, like saying "great shot" or "you'll do better on the next hole", these comments were greeted with apathy or in some cases hostile looks. My attempts to help them feel better about their game made them angry. They used "gamesmanship" with each other which basically is mind games to cause the player to hit a bad shot or miss a putt. This was abhorrent to me but they thought it was great fun. Golf is hard, it hurts when someone tries to make it harder so he can beat you. They did it to me but I wouldn't return it and they began to withdraw from me. It became so stressful that I quit playing golf. Similar things have happened with other hobbies too. I feel more at home in the knit shop than the auto parts store now.

Also, I was the "stay at home" caregiver for my daughter from infancy to high school. I walked her to elementary school every day. I would be there with the other moms. When men found out about my role, they also didn't want anything to do with me. Perhaps they viewed me as a "gender traitor".

Now, when I do have the occasion to meet a man, socially and these subjects come up, I am back in Neverland again.


Kay

[~Dee~]

there is a reason why we gravitate towards the people we do.

i remember when i told one of my female friends that i was transitioning, she looked at me blankly for a while and then excitedly said "wow, thats why i can talk to you"
i met her through a club setting and she felt the same as i did .. we both felt that we couldnt speak to the guys in the club ..
for me it made me feel not only uncomfortable but also threatened .. and when a guy would come over and start speaking to me, id pull someone else into the conversation and when they were busy talking to each other - id slip away.

i was somewhat surprised that my friend had used the exact same tactic and felt the exact same thing as i did ..

people who fall in love talk about that "chemistry" that they held with their partner ..
personally i think that there is something of the same for friendships .. whether its made up from past experience, current hobbies, interests or whatever .
it all makes up a structure that is you.
and if you feel uncomfortable speaking to a certain person or people, it doesnt need to mean anything .. it just means that you dont have that connection to that group/person.

afterall, i do have guy friends .. i have a friend who is a 6'1" scottish friend who is about three of me bound together with duct tape.
we've been good friends for years .. he still doesnt have any problems dealing with me now .. he still feels comfortable speaking with me .. and i with him.
that doesnt make him TG just because he feels comfortable speaking with me about stuff.

afterall, there is a whole lot that goes into a social formation than just that.

[Scotty]

Well said Dee - and I"m the same way - I can talk to women.....

That's a neat trick, I always use the phone excuse :D

[cindianna_jones]

It is very unpleasant for me in the company of males. I don't act right, think like them or relate to their issues. I'm not saying they are bad or have a ikkk factor just that it is so hard when they think I am like them and I certainly am not. I feel like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
This brings me to my question, do you think that my feelings about males are due to my lack of interaction with them or that I am really not like them. Of course, this second condition would be that inside I am female....

Kay

....or a novice at a football game. In the company of men, everything is a game. You are a "team player" going the full "9 yards". You are there to "win". As far as society is concerned, you are totally wierd. Here with us, you are in good company my dear.

It might help you to understand better if you make up a couple of lists. What are the things that make you feel better while in the company of women. What are the things that make you uncomfortable with men? Those kinds of lists. I'm not saying that you should self diagnose.... but that's exactly the thing that I did. I never went to my therapist looking for answers. I went to my therapist to tell her what I was doing. ;) I was quite unusual in that aspect.

Cindi

[Maggie Kay]

Cindi,
I think the idea of those lists is a great one. I like to put things down in writing because the written words tend to bring clarity out of chaos.
Here are my lists:

Pros for the company of women.

) Emotions are allowed or even expected to be shown. Discussing ones feelings are permissible and supporting responses are expected and normally given.
) Women have a better appreciation of the finer things of life. Examples are handcrafts, fashion,arts, cooking, beauty.
) With women, sensitivity and sensuality are appreciated and openly discussed. Examples are how a fabric or yarn feels or how nice fragrances smell or great a hair style makes one feel.
) While catty behavior does exist, women do still support each other, especially when their relationships with men are discussed.
) Women have a better sense of hygiene. Some guys just plain stink.
) Their clothes, ohhh the expression of wearing something beautiful. Jewelry,too. Then they share their joy with others.
) Women understand childrearing. I stayed at home caring for my daughter, taught her reading, science and math, appreciation for beauty and caring for others. Helped her understand computers which gave her an enormous lift in school and now college. Women get math if it is presented in a non chauvinistic way. My daughter was discriminated against by male public school math teachers. Now she is a college level math TA and tutor.
) The "chick flick" never shocks or upsets. Movies for women are focused on relationships not conquest or good vs evil. I'd rather watch "Sleepless in Seattle" than "Saving Private Ryan" and so does my wife.

Cons for the company of men.

) Competition is taken to the absurd. Think of the Seinfeld Mandelbaum episode where these old guys put themselves in hospital trying to out-lift each other. Very funny but so true.
) Aggression occurs far to often. Once, I was forcibly picked up by a man who intended to provoke me into a friendly fight. We were with a church group at a lake and I kept yelling " I don't want to fight" He kept it up and my baby daughter wandered into the water while everybody was watching this. I saw her head go under the inky black water and yelled for my wife to grab her. I had to direct her to the spot while struggling to free myself from his grasp. A few seconds later my wife found our daughter and pulled her out, sputtering. The water was so dark that a few second more and we would never have seen her again. The guy had no reaction. No Apology.
) Comments made by them about women. I won't say bad things about women or my wife nor ogle women like some men do. Sure, I appreciate a beautiful women but to me she is a work of art not a virtual sex toy.
) Peer pressure to conform to the group. Can't have earrings or nicely done nails even if a few men have them.
) Violence is considered entertainment by many men. I get no pleasure from seeing football or hockey players hurt each other. I feel the hurt too.
) What is so wrong with being clean or doing housework? Many men are slobs. Better not mention this topic in a group of men.
) Men try to be insensitive. Don't cry or show emotion, "Be a man", "Boys don't cry" , Repression of emotions has a severe cost.
) OK this is petty, but It creeps me out when I see guys in shorts showing those hairy legs... That hair is so uncomfortable how do they stand it?
) They don't call men's clothing drab for no reason.. Talk about boring. Oh that's right, men don't talk about clothes. Any color you like, various shades of Khaki.... Wear a colorful shirt and you'll get comments or funny looks.
) Are they trying to hurt themselves with their underwear? "Tighty whities" made from burlap version of cotton are comfortable to... who? Is this some sort of right of passage? Gotta be tough from the skin out. Not my skin, thanks very much...
) What is is about urinals ? Do we have to have parallel pissing contests to see who can finish first? Or spray all over the toilet seat and floor? WASH your HANDS !
) What is this pseudo sport of hand shaking? Firm grip, pat on the back, get the "cut of his jib" kind of greeting. These guys like a pack of dogs. The Alpha Male designation. Why is it that we see parallels to dogs in the behavior of men? Can't figure it out.
) What is this fascination with meat? Vegetables, fruits and salads are too girly?
) Virility stuff. Eating Oysters, Rhino Horns, Rocky Mountain Oysters are all silly examples of attempts to keep it up. Fragile egos in tough guys. Don't mess with this in the company of men.

[AmberTG]

I sure can relate to that list!

[Teresa Amina]

a friendly fight

Even at a church group! I've never seen anything friendly in fight, and the implied violence of the handshake ritual is amazing. Good lists, but my late wife and I both enjoyed watching war movies together.Sometimes I'd get home from working a Saturday and find her watching To Hell and Back with Audie Murphy (her favorite war film)

[Vaerise]

Interesting list you have, I can relate to quite a number of them. Although there are some things I dont tolerate among women, like the incessant guy bashing, but then again... sometimes when I look at way guys act, they just asking to be bashed....

[Kimberley]

I do not relate well to men for a variety of reasons.

Like the Capn, I am okay 1 on 1 or in very small groups but beyond that it it anxiety time then withdrawl. Oddly I am similar with females at least on the anxiety level. Once I feel comfortable I can relax but that usually takes a couple of meetings.

Even so, I would have to say my closer acquaintances are definitely female with one notable exception. Please understand that when I say this I am also categorizing within the sense of gender, that is F2M's as men and M2F's as women. However, these latter relationships are still virtual.

I do believe that the gender lines here are somewhat fuzzy at times so trying to categorize a relationship on the forums as gender specific is difficult due to the mix each of us has. (I'll leave that thought right there or we'll get into this whole discussion of 3rd gender thing again.) On the forums I do not even attempt to categorize gender, but rather accept people for who they are rather than how they present.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[pocoyo]

I usually feel a lot more comfortable around men.
Round women I often feel clumsy and stupid and big and bulky (even though I am not big and bulky, quite a shortass in fact). Most of my friends are male and things are just easier with them. More relaxed and chilled out. I do have a few very nice female friends too though. Funnily enough, they are tomboyish and pretty chilled out too!