Just a thought

[ubokvt]

Capn, Kieron if this doesn't belong here feel free to send it to never never land, starting to get parinoid about posting.

I was just reading the thread on PICs, (its great) and this thought occured to me but didn't seem to go with the thread. Growing up as a male looks, cloths, image wasn't an issue except in the Hygiene area, I was average who cares. But every time I dress its a disaster a complete failure, Hair, makeup, clothes, figure everything is an issue. there is a male female thing here around body image male low focus vs female high focus maybe part of your journy to understand accept. Sorry as I said just a thought still working it out could use some imput.

[CaptLex]

Not sure where you're going with this, but I agree that society puts a lot more pressure on women looking their best than on men. This is really evident when you see TV personalities or actors and much more emphasis is placed on what an anchorwoman is wearing and how she did her hair, for example, than on how well she presented her report. And at the Academy Awards the press seems to be more concerned about the ladies' gowns than on the parts they're nominated for.

I'm no raving beauty (in girl or boy mode), but I think I've tried to present my best face and use good grooming in both cases. Now that I'm masculinizing, I'm still taking care of my skin, hair, nails (no I don't polish them anymore), and make sure my clothes are clean, pressed and presentable. Maybe it's all those decades of being a girl, maybe it's just the way I am . . . not sure. But I imagine when you grow up as a boy and there's less pressure to look nice, you don't have to worry as much about these things.

[bi_weird]

Omw yes. *laughs* I've actually honestly questioned if the reason why I'm exploring all of this is to be able to have less pressure about what I'm wearing. When people view me as a girl it's always "Why don't you do something with your hair?" or whatnot. In boy mode it's "nice tie". Guys face so much less pressure about how they look.

[Evert]

:iagree:

But it seems I'm "wasting" more time when I want to look really masculine then 'girly'. :straightface:

[ubokvt]

But I imagine when you grow up as a boy and there's less pressure to look nice, you don't have to worry as much about these things.

This is like the first step for a male I'm talking about, when we went out in public the messages we got we, are you pants ripped, when was the last time you changed, wash you face, he's a boy what do you expect. Dressing to please was not a message we got so we didn't internalize it. If we were even in the ball park of acceptable that was goood enough. We moved on and worried about other things. Its not part of our internal messages except in the frame work is this acceptable for work/social occasion. (DEEP BREATH) It seems some of the FTM are still running the female tape/message of dressing to be accepted when you dress and doing that changes everything. Average guys just don't care, you've got to get there. comments I still working this

[pocoyo]

.It seems some of the FTM are still running the female tape/message of dressing to be accepted when you dress and doing that changes everything. Average guys just don't care, you've got to get there. comments I still working this

Nah. Think people are just trying to look like boys the best they can, just like the mtfs try as hard as they can to look like women.
Should the ftms all wake up tomorrow with passable, acceptable male bodies we'd just wear and do whatever the heck we fancied.
It would just be down to our varying personalities whether we majorly took care of our appearances etc or not.

What I mean is if we all (ftms and mtfs) woke up in our preferred genders tomorrow we wouldn't have to work so hard at it.

Incidently, dunno if you saw them but if you did: The only reason I was wearing a jacket and tie in my pics was just cos I was dressing up to show my necktie off & cos someone said they liked a man in a suit I do not usually wear stuff like that at all! I was definitely not "trying too hard to be a man" or anything. I usually just wear baggy skater-dude clothes like many of my male (and female) friends.

I grew up with the exact attitude that many boys did (oh it's just pocoyo, no wonder the jeans are ripped from skateboarding accidents. When was the last time you changed your socks etc).

"If we were even in the ball park of acceptable that was goood enough. We moved on and worried about other things. Its not part of our internal messages except in the frame work is this acceptable for work/social occasion. "
Well that's exactly the same as me (and many other genetic females) actually.

I don't really think attitudes are exclusively to do with gender. It may be in a lot of cases but not all. I just think it's down to people.

For instance I was brought up as a girl (parents had no idea I was transgendered) but still not expected to be all polished and perfect.

I love the fact that we can all learn from each other BUT it gets to me sometimes that mtfs think they can tell ftms "how to be a man" and seem to think that we were all bought up as if we were expected to wear dresses and have glossy hair and our nails done. This may be a nice image of what it's like to be a "real girl", and may be true in some cases but it's certainly not accurate in a lot of cases.

I would go so far as to say that the only difference in my upbringing from a genetic boy is the simple fact that I don't have a penis!

[CaptLex]

It seems some of the FTM are still running the female tape/message of dressing to be accepted when you dress and doing that changes everything. Average guys just don't care, you've got to get there. comments I still working this
I agree with Pocoyo . . . I don't think we dress to be accepted but mostly to express who we are and to help other people see it too (in other words, pass). I don't think it has anything to do with "the female/tape message". BTW, my sister was girly but she was also a slob (still is) so she was also asked when was the last time she changed, bathed, combed her hair, etc. So it may not be a gender thing.

[Poltergeist]

I agree with Pocoyo . . . I don't think we dress to be accepted but mostly to express who we are and to help other people see it too (in other words, pass). I don't think it has anything to do with "the female/tape message". BTW, my sister was girly but she was also a slob (still is) so she was also asked when was the last time she changed, bathed, combed her hair, etc. So it may not be a gender thing.

I agree... I have two very male brothers, and they both care very much about how they look, and spend an eternity in front of the mirror every morning. Maybe girls are a bit "worse" than guys, but it's not just a female thing. And it's a bit hard not to care when you're a guy and your body is female.

[pocoyo]

And it's a bit hard not to care when you're a guy and your body is female.

Precisely!

[ubokvt]

I
love the fact that we can all learn from each other BUT it gets to me sometimes that mtfs think they can tell ftms "how to be a man" and seem to think that we were all bought up as if we were expected to wear dresses and have glossy hair and our nails done. This may be a nice image of what it's like to be a "real girl", and may be true in some cases but it's certainly not accurate in a lot of cases.

Pocoyo, I offer you my appology it was not my intent to tell another "How to be a man" but pursue a line of thought. I knew it is controversial and might engender a negative response, Hence the (Deep Dreath) some times to gain clarity you have to let it all hang out. I can't tell anybody how to be a man when I don't know myself. ****being male vs how to be a man, a thousand theads here I am male by an accident of birth and biology, I don't care to be a man I just want to be human. I would like to get to king's dream of judgeing a person on their character and not their physical shell. I would hope you would continue to share, maybe we both can understand in the end.

I truly appreciate what you have given me here but it is to much, so may I have some time to answer. I need to think about it. Much of this is like peeling an onion, when you peel of one layer and examine it , it only prepares you for the next layer and more to understand.

I would ask you to consider the social messages of gender are tempered by culture, race, religion economics family it all plays and is tangled also have you found youself acting on messages you never knew you had or thought you'd put to rest.

Give me a day to think on what you said I'll be back if its ok?

[CaptLex]

Give me a day to think on what you said I'll be back if its ok?
Thinking is good . . . whenever I've had to stop and think on something, good things usually come from it. Some people are so sure of themselves, they never open up to try and learn from others. I'm sure about some things, but I'm always trying to learn. :happy:

[pocoyo]

Aah ok I think I get what you mean. You are just trying to find stuff out and musing and analysing it all?

I'm very sorry if I seemed grumpy or rude. I am a little short-fused today because I have a fever (not that that's a good enough reason to be a grouch so, sorry). Plus a few comments from some mtfs (which were trying to tell the ftms how to be men etc etc) have left me a little sensitive.

You don't have to think of any answers for me! (Although it is all very interesting). I was just like, answering what you said 'cos I saw it as a bit of a misconception.

I'm so sorry if I didn't get your meaning, or if I upset you or offended you with my sharpish reply!(Which I still stand by, I just could have said it more nicely perhaps.)

Yus. We're all just people :happy:

[Felix]

Ok guys interesting thread as always. As you have probably all gathered by now I didn't answer this thread when I came on the board earlier because I was made to feel invisable. So I put a thread on the board to all new members introducing myself as The Captains proud right hand man and fellow Moderator. So hope ya all saw it!!

I don't think this thread was meant in anyway to upset ppl it was just a thought provoker and it certainly has done that from what I have read. As for me I like to look my best. When I dress when I go out with my gal I like to look my best cos I feel so proud that she is with me. So I like to wear a shirt usually with smart jeans cos most places here accept that. If I'm just shoppin then still tidy but maybe jeans and a comfortable top, sweat shirt or track top or fleece. Oh I have like a combat style jacket just plain which I love cos she chose it for me. I usually wear skater trainers there my fav. If I'm bein really smart I wear my docs. I'm very aware of my hair it grows so fast within a couple of weeks it lets me down and ppl start sayin love grrr!
For work I can get away with sporty wear cos I do a lot of sports.

xx Felix :hugs:

[crossing-the-rain]

Such a good discussion !
For myself ,in the male side,I bath every time before gone out to work or after work,hair cut every two weeks,good shaved every day,dressed nice ,wear tie ,shinny shoes.In the felmale side ,I know how to dress nice,matching colour for tops or bottom and shoes,but I know nothing about make up.So if I go out as a female,I think I would spend hours to perpare.
On the whole ,I think it's depends on personality not the gender.
Rain.

[ubokvt]

Back as promised, been running this around in my head for the last 24 and I’m probably more confused than when I started.

Pocoyo again let me apologize, it is a sadness for me that I caused upset. I will argue ideas to the wall but I will never criticize another for having them. I argue ideas not people.


(DEEP BREATH) It seems some of the FTM are still running the female tape/message

I believe we all grow up getting all sorts of messages on how to behave and act to fit in. Some we are aware of and some are so subtle that we are unaware of them, like cultural racisms. These messages are effectuated by race, culture, economics, gender and more. Depending on your association with these factors we may or may not get these messages. Some gender message mother to daughter, father to son Parent to child are a complete mystery, in time we might become aware of the basic content logically, we never truly got the message, ie mom never talked to me about my cycle and how it would effect my life. All that is a mystery I’ll never understand. A better example is shaving (legs) I haven’t got a clue why I did it except logically I’m trying to attain some male vision of female beauty. My so, doesn’t, hasn’t in 30 years, but my 13 yr daughter has much to our dismay and comments to the contrary. She feels she needs to, to belong, even asked if she should shave down there (to much info for me) We don’t know where she got this or why it is such a necessity. What I’m saying is the messages we receive about image although similar, Shave legs, come from different sources with different meaning and then are viewed thought a different lens. My view of female beauty comes from every source but a female mentor and then is viewed through a male lens. (I’m F#*%$@) What shaped your view of a male image and is it what a male sees?

I know this is confusing each idea here just leads me away from my central point but I’m trying comments please. Clarity between individuals is a struggle and it doesn’t come with the first conversation.

[Poltergeist]

What shaped your view of a male image and is it what a male sees?

I don't really have an image, only visually - I know that a guy is not supposed to have breasts or a vagina, and would see it as a problem if they did. But apart from the physical stuff, yes there are some mental differences between men and woman, but it isn't that black & white. My younger brother is very feminine in many ways, but still very much a man. You can have a lot of qualities of the opposite gender, and that alone won't make you less male/female if you still feel like whatever your gender is. I consider myself to be transsexual because physically, I know that I should have been in a male body. But who cares if I do "girly" things sometimes... like I told the guys last night, I actually wear makeup sometimes, and when I do, I see myself as a man with makeup, and doesn't feel less male just because I'm wearing eyeliner. I think that's one of the really good things about being transsexual - I just don't care about gender roles at all anymore. I'm just me, no matter what body I'm in - I'd have this personality if I was a biological male, or if I was happy being a woman. It's only the physical stuff I want to change.

[Kimberley]

If I may.

Another of our site members once commented to me that in growing up she was exposed to girls far more than boys. As a result her social experiences were female rather than male.

My personal experience was similar despite a mix of both genders, but the girls had a greater impact on me than the boys. Why wouldn't they, I was as I am, transgendered. So my life experience was a lot of the cattiness etc of girls growing up. An largely absent father (at the time) didnt help in this development. (This may have been a good thing though) On the male side I was forced to conform so I "learned" those responses rather than experience them.

Now to the thread subject. I was taught to be careful with grooming and dressing. I still am although I will admit to being lazy sometimes if I know I am going to be housebound. Regardless, if I have to go out, I am very presentable.

My daughter presents as she wants (she is cisgendered) and is always conscious of appearance whether in overalls or a dress. My son wouldnt be caught dead without a logo. (he didnt get that one from me.)

I tend to think it is a personal choice, rooted in personality not gender related at all. We all know slobs of both genders as well as fashion plates of both genders.

Just :2c: worth.
Kimberley.

[Marla S]

I hope it is allowed to jump in.


I don't think it has anything to do with "the female/tape message". BTW, my sister was girly but she was also a slob (still is) so she was also asked when was the last time she changed, bathed, combed her hair, etc. So it may not be a gender thing.


I have two very male brothers, and they both care very much about how they look, and spend an eternity in front of the mirror every morning. Maybe girls are a bit "worse" than guys, but it's not just a female thing.

As these examples show I don't think it is a gender thing, though there might be some asymmetry between the genders.


It seems some of the FTM are still running the female tape/message of dressing to be accepted when you dress and doing that changes everything. Average guys just don't care, you've got to get there.

I think this statement is missing something.
Usually boys and girls are teached to care for their body, appearence and to change clothes. It is not really a male attribute to be a slob.
The "female tape/message" is rather a gender independent "civilisation-tape/message". Taking CapLex's example. A slobby anchorman would loose his job like a slobby achorwoman. Other examples would be rappers and the like, or youth culture in general, bankers. Those boys care a lot how they appear.

What's the difference ?

IMO the difference is how it is valued.
A young boy usually doesn't get acceptance because of his appearence, at least less than a girl. He get's acceptance for his activities.
To be accepted for what you do is IMO a key for the differences.
It is less the acceptance by the parents (they usually don't count), but the acceptance by friends and schoolmates.
Besides the fact that other activities are usually valued more, boys are faced with homophobia. Every activity that could be considered girly is a potential danger for the social position of a boy. That might start with simple things like using a moisturiser ( some comedians are still joking about it).
This becomes only allowed if there is a strong masculine counterpart (i. e. a rapper is "allowed" to use a moisturiser, if his songs are very manly)
(In contrast, girls often get even supported if the do some boyish activities).

Therefore I'd consider the asymmetry due to higher valuing other activities for boys and the general homophobia and/or femiphobia.


My so, doesn’t, hasn’t in 30 years, but my 13 yr daughter has much to our dismay and comments to the contrary. She feels she needs to, to belong, even asked if she should shave down there (to much info for me) We don’t know where she got this or why it is such a necessity.
Well I think this is quite simple. As I said: The parent's opinion doesn't count, in particular for this age. What counts is the acceptance by her friends and schoolmates. Probably most, if not all, do shave and that is what counts.
They shave because it is the "politial correct" ideal of beauty today, they see in every music video, magazine, movies etc (not realizing that a lot is brushed up by CG).
Your SO might belong to a generation when the opposition to "beauty to please men" has been PC, or she just doesn't like it.

[CaptLex]

What shaped your view of a male image and is it what a male sees?
I'm with Poltergeist on this one. I'm not sure what subconscious messages I may have received growing up about what a male is supposed to look like, but I don't think my feelings about being male come from these. I don't think there is any one way to be trans, and I don't think there is any one way to be male. Men come in all sizes, shapes and personalities.

Some have facial hair, some don't.
Some have a receding hairline, and some don't.
Some are kind, generous and slow to anger, and we all know those that aren't.
Some are good with kids and kind to old people, some aren't.
Some are fun and some are serious.
Some are handy around the house, and some can't hang a picture.
Some are into sports and cars, and some prefer cooking and cleaning.
Some are more butch and some are more fem.

I think you get the picture. There's no one way to be a man (or a woman, actually), and there's no "wrong" way to be a man. Whether this has to do with internal messages we got growing up, or just the person's core personality, I can't answer. It's the old nature vs. nurture discussion. It could be a bit of both.

I hope I answered your question and didn't go off on a crazy tangent. BTW, I'm still waiting for my mother to tell me about my cycle and how it will change my life. :eek:

[ubokvt]

BTW, I'm still waiting for my mother to tell me about my cycle and how it will change my life.

I've never heard it either, could I be there when she tells you

[CaptLex]

.

I've never heard it either, could I be there when she tells you
Sure, hon . . . pull up a chair and pack a lunch. I'm not holding my breath on that one anymore. :heehee:

[ubokvt]

Thinking is good . . . whenever I've had to stop and think on something, good things usually come from it. Some people are so sure of themselves, they never open up to try and learn from others. I'm sure about some things, but I'm always trying to learn. Captlex


Trust me I'm learning, sometimes for me there can be a raw emtional wind for me but sometimes you learn the most in a strong blow. Thank you for the gift of being here and I'll try to keep my sail reefed.

[CaptLex]

Trust me I'm learning
Just so you know, there'll be a pop quiz at the end of the month . . . :heehee:

[Stacy GG]

Well I think this is quite simple. As I said: The parent's opinion doesn't count, in particular for this age. What counts is the acceptance by her friends and schoolmates. Probably most, if not all, do shave and that is what counts.
They shave because it is the "politial correct" ideal of beauty today, they see in every music video, magazine, movies etc (not realizing that a lot is brushed up by CG).
Your SO might belong to a generation when the opposition to "beauty to please men" has been PC, or she just doesn't like it.

I know in elememnrty I actually got picked on by other girls for not shaving, so I didn't do it because of the media...I did it for a while just so the other girls would leave me alone.