Bad Reputation ? A question fo the FTMs, MTFs, and GGs

[Marla S]

Can't get a grip on it.

What precisely is it that causes our negative reputation in public ?

Any ideas ?

[Jesse69]

They think we're all gay or sexual perverts. And then my brother told me those who crossdress are like those serial murderers - they have real mental problems.

It's hard being a "straight" crossdresser because society hates us and often people don't want to be friends with ut.

[Bernadina]

Organized religion hasn't been very kind to us.

[Kimberley]

Wow, that is a loaded question Marla. I think to sum it up in a word that would have to be fear, fear of the unknown. We make people uncomfortable because they dont understand the difference between sexuality and gender so they are "repulsed" by us. Maybe they question their own sexuality, I dont know. Anyway, that carries on to a host of other reactions that go from "whatever" to violence.

I think that the myth was well established with the flaming drag queens. They were and are flambouyant and so when most people think of crossdressing they think of the drag queen first and that becomes the gold standard for them.

Society with all its bigotry find it very easy to center out those who are different so we are at the least marginalized but more likely discriminated against because we are "easy" targets.

Just my :2c: worth

Kimberley

[Leslie Foxx]

It is a fairly common reaction for people to hate and fear what they don't understand. We tend to be painted with a broad brush into the "gay, mentally derailed, narcisists, serial killers(OMG!)" category. It is their loss.

I must go dispose of the bodies now.

[Diana West]

Crossdressing (in some regions) is considered a threat to masculinity.
Asking why is like asking why is playing sports masculine?

Where I live sports are a big deal. Too big a deal. It is nothing for some parents to force their son to play sports. In some families, the girl is forbidden to play sports. Because sports is a guy thing.
It's almost like they're trying to prove that they are men.

It is a mindset. One that cannot be challenged. I know too many of these men who are obsessed with being a man to enjoy life. They are too concerned with what society is telling them to do.
Many of these men are dying too because of the stress they feel to maintain their masculine identity.

[melissaabom]

Hello

Let me try ...and give my comment !
It seems that some wanna be crossdressers ..try to mock the art of
crossdressers .

Let me give some example .... hairy bodies , terrible make up ..terrible clothing that does not match and just an over uglyness toward the femm
mystique .

Melissa ( lifelong Cd girl ):2c: :2c:

[CaptLex]

I'm with Kimberley . . . people fear what they don't understand and they don't understand what they themselves don't feel. If it's not something they themselves don't experience, there must be something wrong with it. Not to mention all the messages from parents and peers growing up, and the way the media mostly makes us look like deviants and nuts. :Pfft:

So many people have told me they've never met another like me before after I told them I'm trans. I always answer with, "that you know of" and explain that we're not the freaks they've seen on Jerry Springer. Then I bring the point home that they would never have known about me if I hadn't told them. I love opening people's eyes like that. :devil:

P.S. Thanks for including all in your question, Marla.

[gennee]

I agree with all the comments on why we're hated. The medical and psychiatry professions didn't do us any justice, either.

Gennee

[crossing-the-rain]

Partly because of misunderstand, misconception, miscellany, misdirect, misguided,misjudgement.....
Rain.

[Bethanygirl]

I believe that we just make them think about their own sexuality, and most people do not wish to be forced into any kind of introspection. At least four-fifths of everyone I have ever met run on their social programming, and do NOT want to have to deeply consider life issues be it spirituality/religon, prejudices/intolerances, or sexuality/orientation. They wish to glide through life in the groove that has been laid down for them and are willing to accept the shallowness of their lives for the security that it gives them.

[Shelly Preston]

Some have a negative reaction to things they dont understand

Others have decided that its not right and nothing will change their mind

Comments I have heard recently "them gays should all be shot" & "crossdressers dont know what they are"

Its very hard to change the mind of people with this type of attitude as most are not prepared to listen.

We can only hope they at least will adopt live and let live attitude

Recenty changes in the media are helping but it will be a long process and hopefully it will get better in the future

[Calliope]

The main issue, I believe, is male homophobia.

The song 'Lola' depicts the fear of a straight male momentarily attracted to a TG, then discovering the deception. Only a swift (often violent) repudiation of the attraction will 'save' the straight identity. Recall Cronenberg's movie M Butterfly, as well - plus many other popkult examples.

That's why I always caution CDs who sport the sexy look and then turn passing into a sport.

[Sheila]

I posted the quote below to a similer question posed in another part of the forum hope it helps


I may be way of base here but I don't think that they see it as a threat to gender, but more that anybody doing something outside the "norm" actually causes each of us to look deep within ourselves and it may be that we do not like what we see ---------- we believe ourselves to be tolerant caring human beings but being faced with it (whatever it is) on a daily basis, makes some of us realise how intolerant we really are deep down -------- does that make any sort of weird sense ------ and so we don't feel good about ourselves and ergo the blame for that has to go to somebody else !!!!!!!!!

Jess

[Kate Simmons]

All the foregoing are good points and I'm glad Marla started this thread. We not only have to see how others view us but see how we view ourselves. It seems that in a lot of ways we see ourselves as innocent victims of bigotry and violence and things like that. Most of the reactions by others come about by misconception, misunderstanding, and misinformation (the media). If we are to have any kind of empowerment, we need not only to debunk our own myths but the overall myths generated by a public that is basically "clueless". Bringing our own fears out in the open shows what we are up against. We are generally good and positive people. We obey laws, we pay our taxes and even defend our country when called for. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be highlighted that we are good upstanding citizens who really aren't out to influence any one else's sexual preference or change the world according to our image. We just want the freedom to be who we really are and be able to express that. Asking ourselves what we want and how to get it are the first steps as are recognizing what barriers we are up against. The next step is to change the image people have of us in a way that is positive.:happy: Ericka Kay

[ronnie06]

there are many good sound answers here already.
in my eyes,...

social mores!

the so called social morality refuses to recognize many things....
but it IS s l o w l y ..............coming around to our side.

give it time hun.

our day is close at hand!

[Iniquity Blonde GG]

its strange, but its really "fear" with people i think :rolleyes: have u noticed, that if your in the street,out shopping, and you see someone who is disabled,or has some sort of "other" disability, people either try to avoid them, walk round them, or make terrible unprofound comments. simply because they are scarred/embarrassed with what they see, and dont understand ! iam sorry to say ive done it in past :sad: yet when you see c/d on telly, pantomines, etc, no-one bats a eyelid do they +? its "acceptable". yet if you said you knew someone whom c/d there would be a hue'cry :eek: the world tries to make evryone "politcaly correct", yet they are way way off mark with lots of things sadly :sad: acceptance is hard, tolarance is unthinkable :Angry3:

[melissaK]

Hmmm. Is it fear of the inexplicable? I mean who "knows" why we are as we are?

I think its cultural conditioning myself. We constitute an assault on one of the earliest pieces of knowledge we impart to our kids - the difference between girls and boys. Undo that "learned" fact and you upset a lot people's apple carts.

In Arlen Lev's book "Transgeder Emergence" he has a nice chapter on the anthropologic aspects of TG's in past and distant cultures (the Rule of WASP's has not been universal across our planet in time or geography). Some present and past cultures seem to ahve accomodated TG folks. They raise(ed) their kids to believe that there are more than two categories of people, and they grow up OK with the idea of say men living as women.

So to avoid creating more of the intolerant bigots DayTripper warns of, we need to raise our own kids to accept decent people like us without bias or prejudice.

[TxKimberly]

Can't get a grip on it.

What precisely is it that causes our negative reputation in public ?

Any ideas ?
I'll add one more reason that I did not see posted here. Some men actually believe that we do this to try and "Fool" straight men into having a relationship with us.
Kim

[Krystenw]

I gott agree pretty much with what has been said.
Have any of you seen the new Dish Network comercial. It is about some big Burly fellow trying to get his bra fastened behind his back and they come off with something about not having to worry about what you have on because you can stay at home and watch Pay-for-View then they show him sitting back in high heels watching TV.

[MsJanessa]

They think we're all gay or sexual perverts. And then my brother told me those who crossdress are like those serial murderers - they have real mental problems.

It's hard being a "straight" crossdresser because society hates us and often people don't want to be friends with ut.

And what if you are not a "straight" crossdresser but a gay one? These days homosexuals are much more main stream and more accepted in society at large then CDs regardless of their orientation.

[Rebeca]

And what if you are not a "straight" crossdresser but a gay one? These days homosexuals are much more main stream and more accepted in society at large then CDs regardless of their orientation.

I think MSJanessa hit it on the head here....the fact that you are straight or gay doesn't even matter, if you dress you are perceived as gay and the homophobic society we live just can't accept that....bottom line is fear of what is different.

Rebeca

[tightsgirl]

People think we are perverts or deranged sexual deviants or pediphiles, but they always end up being christians, conservatives, or members of the moral majority:lol2:

[crusadergirl]

I can see that its not really a good thing to be a cd. Most of your points are right on. I was asked yesterday what i thought about trans i told them i liked them there cool with me. But i could tell not many ppl even knew what that ment to be trans. I told them and they said that they are scared of them. I have 2 good friends that are trans and i didn't want anything to do with them until i realized i was a cd. I have been pretty open minded but the ppl in my life mostly my family don't like anything thats not normal to them. So its hard at times to break away from it. I work in costumer service so i have seen cds and disabled ppl i have always ask them if they need help but i was alittle freaked out. Thats all i have to say on that.

[Kieron Andrew]

most of joe/jo public 'think' that ALL CDing comes with sexual connotation, and that we are sex craved perverts!

[Kate Simmons]

I remember seeing one of those Police shows once. A store was being robbed and a young guy en femme was one of the customers. The robber was threatening to shoot the customers. The young guy decided to risk all and jumped the robber and turned the tables. He was "outted" by the experience. Did he think of that? Potentially saving the lives of the other customers was foremost in his mind, risking his own life in the process. During the interview on the show he admitted he was a crossdresser. He figured the robber would never suspect a "girl" of trying to jump him, so went for it.If what was portrayed was true, he became friends with all the other customers. They thought no less of him or his disposition, as he was a hero to them. Although the fact that he was a crossdresser was mentioned, it was not highlighted in a derrogatory way. In fact, the host commended him for risking his life, reputation and possibly being subject to ridicule for what he did. You never know who is going to save your life, as you can't pick and choose. Get my point? This is the kind of stuff people need to know about.:happy: Ericka Kay

[Lanore]

We are different!

Lanore

[Scotty]

Organized religion hasn't been very kind to us.

That's an oxymoron, kinda like 'Military Intelligence".

I have issues with organized religion unless two people organize a get together there's always one man in control of how everything is done, and a doctrine....

I just have issues with that - and that is so true about why people are looked down upon for anything out of the norm. Not just dressing either...

[SexxxyBrianna]

Hello

Let me try ...and give my comment !
It seems that some wanna be crossdressers ..try to mock the art of
crossdressers .

Let me give some example .... hairy bodies , terrible make up ..terrible clothing that does not match and just an over uglyness toward the femm
mystique .

Melissa ( lifelong Cd girl ):2c: :2c:

I have to ask... what qualifies someone as a "wanna be" cross-dresser?
So if they have body hair (some don't shave fully as maybe they are in the closet for one reason or another), or are bad dressers, or not blessed with good looks they are "wanna be's"? So they are not what you consider to be "real" cross-dressers? That type of thinking is very obtuse and judgmental.

[Kenix]

I hope my answer does not offend anyone...

Perhaps the CD community isn't "fighting back" hard enough? There is no powerful organization to help or protect us like some other groups.

[Joyciecd]

Could it be more primal, merely feeling adverse to any and all groups that are different than the hater? Isn't that pure prejudice? Except for the more enlightened within the various groups, it would seem that the world history is rife with countless examples, even today between factions in Iraq.

[Dapple]

I am with Melissa51---
Been places,seen things that would make a dyed in the wool CD sick.
bad,bad makeup, dirty, hairy, dirty mishappen clothes. Just what the public wants to see so they can say " Told you so" Its a slap in the face to GGs that someone as dirty and dressed like that would try and pass themselves off as feminine
Dapple

[Calliope]

I am with Melissa51---
Been places,seen things that would make a dyed in the wool CD sick.
bad,bad makeup, dirty, hairy, dirty mishappen clothes.

Couldn't agree more.

That's why I've spent years lobbying for mandatory CD membership organizations to weed out the unworthy.

:bonk:

[Kimkandy]

You can't win... but there are alternatives to fighting... :hypnotized: Obi-Wan Kenobi

Kim

:dom: :iagree: :kickbutt: :wm:

[melissacd]

Hmmm...

- fear of what we don't understand
- discomfort when visual cues are confusing
- poor representation in the media
- threat to one's sexuality
- threat to one's belief system (religious or otherwise)
- threat to the status quo

How to put a positive spin...

- find opportunities to educate
- when dressed be friendly and communicate positively
- do your best to look your best but do not try and deceive
- develop confidence in your femme persona
- be a positive spokes person for the community
- dress in ways that are appropriate for age and setting

One of the things that I am slowly learning as I get out more and develop more and more confidence (face my fears) is that for the most part the public, at least the public that I have been exposed to is either indifferent or curious. My goal now is to continue to develop my confidence, continue to grow as a femme person, put my best foot forward (in a nice pair of heels of course), present a positive image and while I do my best to create a wonderful feminine illusion not concern myself with passing. I have seen many CDs where is no doubt that they are men and yet they project great feminine poise and beauty. They are my role models.

By projecting positive things in as much as I can I will do my small bit in creating a positive view of cross dressers. By all of us getting out there and doing the same, in time, cross dressers will be seen as normally as women in pants (something that as little as 80 years ago was seen as a moral outrage).

For as long as we skulk around in the shadows we will be perceived in a negative way. I do understand that it takes a lot of courage to get out there into the public, it is a very scary thing, however, small steps, especially with the help of other sisters, will move all of us out into the light and build our confidence. The more of us who do this the more normal it will become. We are all ambassadors for the cause of making it ho hum to see a cross dresser, that is when we will know that we have finally achieved the goal (although it will take away the fun of the surprised looks you get in the mall :D )

[Calliope]

For as long as we skulk around in the shadows we will be perceived in a negative way. I do understand that it takes a lot of courage to get out there into the public, it is a very scary thing, however, small steps, especially with the help of other sisters, will move all of us out into the light. The more of us who do this the more normal it will become. We are all ambassadors for the cause of making it ho hum to see a cross dresser, that is when we will know that we have finally achieved the goal.

Word!

[Robin 36]

The main issue, I believe, is male homophobia.

The song 'Lola' depicts the fear of a straight male momentarily attracted to a TG, then discovering the deception. Only a swift (often violent) repudiation of the attraction will 'save' the straight identity. Recall Cronenberg's movie M Butterfly, as well - plus many other popkult examples.

That's why I always caution CDs who sport the sexy look and then turn passing into a sport.

I think in general for most straight males, the line between themselves and gay and/or cross dressing males is precious thin. One false move and they're phsyco/social/sexual fondation crumbles. This makes 'em uncomfortable an insecure (i.e. fear).

Anyway Marla, I think your cute and not scary at all.

[Chiana]

Maybe it does come down to looks sometimes. We all know that really pretty and/or talented CD's and TV's are very popular with the straight community in various clubs and shows. People find them extremely fascinating. I am in the closet because I doubt that many people would find me pretty, attractive or fascinating.

[Samantha B L]

It's like a lot of people to react with fear and hostility to something that is different which they don't understand or know their a-- from a gopher hole about.At least I think so.In time most people will get better educated about all this but there will always be people that are touchy about "tvs","homos",etc..Samantha

[Calliope]

Anyway Marla, I think your cute and not scary at all.

Oh, Marla's cute, alright.

But her brain is the secret weapon.

[Joy Carter]

People think we are perverts or deranged sexual deviants or pedophiles, but they always end up being Christians, conservatives, or members of the moral majority:lol2:

Hmmmm. I'm a Christian, Conservative Republican and a life long CDer. Maybe the other side just is not honest about what they think. In my experience bigotry and hate knows no sex, race, religion or political affiliation.

[Calliope]

Hmmmm. I'm a Christian, Conservative Republican and a life long CDer. Maybe the other side just is not honest about what they think. In my experience bigotry and hate knows no sex, race, religion or political affiliation.

I think you are a noble exception.

While I'll grant there are some Republicans who are social liberals (William Weld, etc.), I'll point out there's not too many commie treehuggers quoting the Bible against the GLBT community, either. The 'moral majority' political action groups and Churches really did slam the gays in the 80s, as I remember.

BTW, are you out?

[DanaStrauss]

I think, and of course this is all just my off-the-wall opinion, that most people have so much of their self-image tied up in their biological sex. Men try to live up to the "man rules"...they play sports and belch because they have to appear 100% absolutely manly in front of both men and women. Women, likewise, try to act more passive (at least in their relationships with men), pretty, and ladylike. Everyone knows their role and tries to fit into the mold as well as they can.

But then a transgender person comes along and they're obviously someone who doesn't buy into the whole gender binary, and refuse to let themselves be defined by what's between their legs. This is threatening to people because it throws their whole worldview in jeopardy...maybe life isn't as black & white as they thought, and maybe they didn't have to make the choices they did just because they're a man or a woman. When something threatens your whole idea of yourself like that, it's a natural reaction to strike against it in the hopes of keeping the sense of order you thought you had.

[Kimkandy]

What precisely is it that causes our negative reputation in public ?

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... :cool: Jesus Christ

Who threw that? :rolleyes: Come on, no is going till we find out who threw that... :kickbutt:

Kim

:dom: :evilbegon :evilbegon :gn:

[trannie T]

I was not aware that we were hated. Laughed at, yes. Pitied, maybe. Not understood, definately. Hated, not in my experience.
We are different from most other members of society and there is not a lot of tolerance for those who are different. For us to gain better acceptance will require the general public to be better educated. For the public to become better educated will require more of us to come out of the closet and present a positive image.

[tightsgirl]

Hmmmm. I'm a Christian, Conservative Republican and a life long CDer. Maybe the other side just is not honest about what they think. In my experience bigotry and hate knows no sex, race, religion or political affiliation.

Is that why all the republican senators are are being outed, christian leaders are being caught, and do I really have to mention the catholic priests.

It seems to me the republicans are the dishonest among us.

[noname]

I probably can't list anything that hasn't already been listed. But as one person told me, they aren't thinking about what we like to wear but what they expect. When they see us, they are caught off guard. Millions of women are crossdressing every single day, ( heck they can cross dress to an interview and get a professional job ) but enough women do it, no one is really caught off guard. But primarly I believe it's fear of the unknown, combined with the preconception that it's some creepy sex thing.

[cdjenny]

i am not going to try to find out or try to guess as to why...i am me and i really dont care who who knows it..i dont live my life for anyone but me..and i am not happy unless dressed enfem..so there for i could care less of what people might think or say of me..i am sorry i could not help you as to why people do that..but if we continue to live our lifes wondering as to why we will never get where we want to be, because as some of us here fear what people think about us..i know i did..but not any more..the sooner we relize that it does not matter what they think the sooner we can be truly happy with our selfs. and that is my :2c: :hugs: :love: jenny

[Kate Simmons]

Oh, Marla's cute, alright.

But her brain is the secret weapon.You got that right Day. Never know what's going on in THIS little head(even though I'm blonde). Be afraid, be very afraid because I can tell when someone is speaking from their heart and when they are trying to blow smoke up my ass.My point is we have to be honest with ourselves and each other if any positive change is to occur. If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for who we really are and not for who people THINK we are.I'm willing to give this a shot. You can't win or lose if you don't even try.:happy: Ericka Kay

[ReginaK]

This thread came along at a perfect time. In a university class, they watched Paris Is Burning. Even though it's about drag queens, most people don't bother to seperate crossdressers from drag queens.

Here is the review one of the stupids.. I mean students turned in:



Paris is Burning is the story of homosexuals in the late 80’s attempting to break social constructs through the power of cross-dressing and dancing to new wave pop music. The drag queens portrayed in this film yearn to be accepted in mainstream society. Furthermore, they wish to be wealthy, famous and sexy women. Rather than do what normal people do – find realistic and obtainable goals in life – they dress as women and dance for each other at various “balls”. This movie is not the story of gay men searching for tolerance in the world. This movie is a glorification of mental illness.
Most of the gay men profiled in this movie have heartbreaking stories to share. Many of them have been shunned from home after coming out of the closet and seek a group of people to accept them for who they are. This aspect of the chronicle is truly tragic. However the healthiness of acting out fantasies of being women is highly questionable. This type of role-playing is not accepted in other social spheres, so why should it be any different when analyzing gay culture? Let’s say a person wished to be a professional football player but lacked the athletic ability to do so. If this person were to walk around dressed as Brian Urlacher on a daily basis - complete with a helmet and pads – they would be shunned. When a man tries to defy his own biology and become a woman, it should be treated the same way. One gay man interviewed in the movie points out that heterosexual men congregate and watch a major sporting event together. He says that the balls are their version of a sporting event. First of all, such a statement incorrectly implies that gay men are incapable of being sports fans. Second, it is an awful comparison to draw. Most sports fans live vicariously through the athletes and will sometimes wear replica jerseys and play in informal games. However they generally do not allow this fantasy to consume their entire lives and the ones that do are typically shunned for such radicalism.
One of the drag queens profiled is a man who goes by the pseudonym of “Venus Xtravaganza”. He wishes to be a white woman because he says that they are given all of the luxuries in life without working for them. Not only is this a racist statement it is obviously not true. Sadly people are sometimes discriminated against because of their gender, sexuality, creed or race. However, very few people in this world are simply handed everything on a silver platter. Everyone must work for what they have and everyone faces some sort of limitation(s). Overcoming adversity is part of life. Venus’ way of chasing material wealth is to dress like a white woman and get into cars with strange men. This life plan – as the movie tells us - resulted in her demise when she was found in a sleazy motel strangled to death.
The idea that these gay men who are disowned by their families can come together and use each other for support is a wonderful concept. It is cruel for a parent to turn their back on a child just because of their sexuality. However for these gay men to live in a world of complete fantasy where they are women is fundamentally wrong. Some of these men go as far as to mutilate their bodies through plastic surgery to give themselves the body parts of a woman. This behavior is sick and is not something to be celebrated.

[Rachel Newark]

[QUOTE=DayTripper;653033]

The song 'Lola' depicts the fear of a straight male momentarily attracted to a TG, then discovering the deception.


Hmm, that's not how I read the song..

"I'm glad I'm a man and so is Lola"

Whilst there is certainly confusion at the begining,

" Well I'm not dumb but I can't understand
Why she walked like a woman and talked like a man "

But

"Then I looked at her and she at me
Well that's the way that I want it to stay
And I always want it to be that way for my Lola "

Sounds pretty accepting to me :-)


Rachel Newark

[Rachel Newark]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone... :cool: Jesus Christ

Who threw that? :rolleyes: Come on, no is going till we find out who threw that... :kickbutt:

Kim



" Are there any *Women* here ?????"

Rachel Newark

[Lindsay]

I don't think we're hated, beyond the (small) number of intolerant people who believe that anything vaguely different is evil. But I do think the public perception of CDs is largely based on what Eddie Izzard calls "weirdo transvestites". For example, last night there was a CD in one of those police video shows: he was a toothless, mad man in a boob tube and bikini bottoms who'd called a cab and attacked the driver with a whip. And unfortunately that's pretty representative of the CDs who appear in the media: CDs are bank robbers, serial killers, mentally ill...

I think, too, that many people see CDing as a rather grubby sexual fetish. So when they see a CD in a real life situation they tend to assume that the CD is getting his/her jollies, which is pretty disturbing - if a grown man was next to you in the supermarket and he was dressed as a baby, or in a gimp outfit, you might be freaked out. To many people, CDers are doing exactly the same.

The CDs I've seen out in public (in everyday situations, eg shops, not clubs) have typically been fiftyish men dressed in the sort of clothes even an 18 year old girl might think was a bit tarty (the sort of outfits that, if you bought them for your SO, might get you slapped or made to sleep in the shed), and that doesn't help to counteract the "it's not about sex!" message many CDs try to put across.

And then there's the way (a minority of) CDs behave online, which has been discussed endlessly on this board: a parody of femininity where feminism never happened, putting on stockings changes your sexual orientation and everybody *giggles*. And I can think of lots of women's discussion forums which have been invaded by the less thoughtful CDs out there, who see the entire internet as a place to post fake stories about being force femmed by their aunt...

My SO's very understanding about the whole CD thing, and we've made lots of progress - but the hardest part of it all was to dispel the idea that as a CD I want to dress as a schoolgirl and pick up men when I go for groceries. I suspect that if my SO had looked online and ended up in some of the more obvious CD sites (not this one) where the giggling CDs hang out, the process of understanding would have been much more difficult - if not impossible.

[ShortSkirt]

It's natural for people to be afraid of what they don't understand, and this is not understood by most people in society.

[Kate Simmons]

Even so Lindsay, I do find that fat middle-aged, bald butcher with a mustache kinda cute in his own unique way.:happy: Ericka Kay

[Jessica]

Can't get a grip on it.

What precisely is it that causes our negative reputation in public ?

Any ideas ?

This is a quote from Chief Dan george that explains it to me at least...



" If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear.
And what one fears one destroys. "

[CaptLex]

most of joe/jo public 'think' that ALL CDing comes with sexual connotation, and that we are sex craved perverts!
So . . . does that mean I'm the only one?!:heehee:

There are so many reasons, which is why there are so many good answers here. Another reason: I think some "straight" guys are afraid they may be attracted to a crossdresser, and they'll have to face something about themselves. :eek:

[Marla S]

Hell :thumbsup: Thanks for all the replys. :love:
Very interesting. I need a while to sort this.

[melissacd]

Millions of women are crossdressing every single day, ( heck they can cross dress to an interview and get a professional job ) but enough women do it, no one is really caught off guard.

The thing is now, in western culture, it is not considered cross dressing. There was a time when it was unthinkable for a woman to wear pants, now it is perfectly acceptable. That acceptance was achieved by just doing it, by forging ahead in spite of the objections raised by others. I feel that the same is required here. Everything is suspect until it becomes so commonplace that no one even notices anymore. That is why this will become acceptable only through the efforts of all of us to get out there and make it normal. The more who do this the faster it will become normal.

[Bridget]

Gender roles are mainly a construction of society. Those constructs persist because the population at large maintains those constructs. (If we didn't care for the constructs in the first place, we would have gotten rid of it already.) Crossdressers compose a threat to that construct, and demeaning the activity is an activity which helps to maintain the construct of distinct gender roles. The thing is, gender roles for women have become more and more plastic, because assuming a more masculine identity is neither embarassing (grabbing more power is never embarassing), and also that women have in general historically have been recognized as victims, and that enforcing old structures of dominant-submissive male female relationships is considered bad. Much of the time, when documentaries cover transgendered people transitioning, they often focus on female to male, for the reason of creating sympathy, because the public is much more at ease with it. Male gender roles, however are strongly as enforced as ever. The strong emergence of the male gay community, and the feminist movement, has created a surge in the need for male heterosexual men to stake out their identity against such "threats", since masculinity is largely defined by homophobia and objectification of women, at least historically. As a result, male objection to crossdressing can be quite strong, especially because of the misperception that gay men are really "transgender"; the perception that a man liking another man is impossible; only feminine or "womanly" men could like other men. (This stereotype is not lost on the gay community; the bear movement is at least part of a counter to this perception.) In addition, some of feminism objects to male to female crossdressing, because it can be percieved as a threat to femininity, men trying "to take" what women have worked so hard to earn. Then there's also the risk of being "trapped" by a transgender person, either a man falling for a crossdresser, or even a lesbian falling for a crossdresser, only to discover to their dismay, they have been made inadvertently, gay/straight (respectively). That then arouses a sense of self-doubt and perhaps self-disgust because of aforementioned gender role definitions, and that may be translated into fear, hate and even violence, targeted at the person or group.

[Angela E.]

Let`s not forget the damage done by Jerry Springer,Cops,movies like Dressed to kill and Psycho,crime dramas on tv that portray us negatively,stupid British drag comedy etc.etc.Not very flattering portraits ladies.-Angela

[tekla west]

Better than the Kinks, why not try someone more modern, and more in tune with what is going on.

I don't give a damn 'bout my reputation
You're living in the past it's a new generation
A girl can do what she wants to do and that's
What I'm gonna do
An' I don't give a damn ' bout my bad reputation

Oh no not me

An' I don't give a damn 'bout my reputation
Never said I wanted to improve my station
An' I'm only doin' good
When I'm havin' fun
An' I don't have to please no one
An' I don't give a damn
'Bout my bad reputation

Oh no, not me
I don't give a damn
'Bout my reputation
I've never been afraid of any deviation
An' I don't really care
If ya think I'm strange
I ain't gonna change An' I'm never gonna care 'Bout my bad reputation

Like Joan Jett, who still rocks, I guess my question is, why care?

[Lindsay]

In addition, some of feminism objects to male to female crossdressing, because it can be percieved as a threat to femininity, men trying "to take" what women have worked so hard to earn.

That's not the only feminist objection, though. I've seen it said a lot of times that (some) CDers are an insult to women because they come from a very male perspective on what women are like: submissive, pretty little things whose only concerns are make-up, frocks and boys.


The thing is, gender roles for women have become more and more plastic, because assuming a more masculine identity is neither embarassing

That's broadly true, but women still get slammed for being too "mannish". A woman boss in a suit is fine as long as she's a *hot* boss, that sort of thing. Maybe I'm just from a backwards part of the world, but the "if she doesn't bat her eyes and dress sexily she's obviously a man-hating lesbian" attitude still persists (because, of course, lesbians are only lesbians because they're too ugly/weird to get a man).


As a result, male objection to crossdressing can be quite strong

There's definitely a continuum of bigotry out there. The belief goes roughly like this: all gays are weirdo kid-molesters; CDers are men who dress as women, so they're obviously gay. So they're weirdo kid-molesters too. Let's get them. Depressing.


only to discover to their dismay, they have been made inadvertently, gay/straight (respectively).

I'm sure that's a factor for some, but I think the "homophobia = fear of being seduced/tricked" argument, which has been mentioned a few times here, has become an article of faith without really being questioned. Of the bigots I've known, most of them have been equal opportunity bigots in a way: they want to hurt gays, sure, but they also want to hurt blacks, asians, muslims, people with funny accents, people from the next town, people from the wrong church, etc etc etc. They don't want to hurt, say, people from the next town because inside they're scared that if they moved there, they might like it; they don't attack Muslims because deep down they'd love to visit mosques. They're simply people whose entire identity is based on hurting anyone who isn't exactly like them, and the slightest difference is justification for an assault.

I do think Angela's probably right with her list of movies, TV shows etc. As far as the media's concerned, CDs are either dangerously mentally ill or objects of ridicule. I think that's probably the way most people think of CDs.

Noname said:

Millions of women are crossdressing every single day

I know it's an old argument, but they aren't: with very, very few exceptions, when women wear trousers, suits, shirts, jeans etc they're wearing clothes designed for, cut for and sold for women. Even the current "mannish" trend is still women's clothing. Same way if a man wears a kilt he's not CDing, because he's wearing a garment made for, cut for and sold for men. A mini-kilt, on the other hand... :)

[Marcie Sexton]

They fear the unknown, with little enough nerve to ask...I was always told to ask if you didn't know...

Envy, because we are willing to explore and find what really makes us most comfortable...I am my most comfortable as Marcie:2c:

[melissaK]

This is a quote from Chief Dan george that explains it to me at least...
" If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them, you will not know them, and what you do not know you will fear. And what one fears one destroys. "

Nice Quote Jessica. I mentioned above that the American Indians were written up in Arlene Lev's book "Transgender Emergence" as one of the cultures which accepted transgendered men, "The American Indian Two Spirit Tradition." (pp. 59-61) Arlene writes:

"The tribal concept of Two-Spirit describes an individual who has both a male and a female spirit . . . to be a Two-Spirit means one can see in both directions [as a man and as a woman], and therefore understand the world in a more holisitc manner."

Arlene goes on to explain more:

"Two-Spirited people did not chose their role or status - it was considered their innate nature. . . . a Lakota Shaman, who said, 'the Great Spirit made them wintkes and we accept them as such . . . to us a man is what nature, or his dreams, make him' . . . being Two-Spirited was seen as a sacred gift and treated with reverence."

I think its all quite consistent with Chief Dan George's quote . . . too bad uptight WASP's chose to obliterate the American Indian Culutres rather than assimilate the best parts of it. We might've been treated with reverence . . .;)

[Dapple]

When I get into the mind games of who I really am I think of Popeye. He said it frist and the most often- "I yam what I yam and dats all what I yam"
That ends the game for me.
Someone also said," Its better to be disliked for who you are then be liked for who they think you are"
Dapple

[Sarah R]

I agree with Bridget, her views seem pretty accurate.

[noname]

Millions of women are crossdressing every single day

I'm going to comment on my own comment for clarification. I will agree the majority of people would not say a woman in pants is crossdressing. I do know there are still groups of people who feel that way. I think we can all agree it was around 50 years ago most people would have considered it so.

I don't know if women find a man dressing feminine is considered invading their teritory. But, ironicly they took pants ( traditionally mens only apparel ) and have labled many styles for women only. Perhaps women need to do a little self evaluation?

I really don't care how girly pants may seem, capris ( again origonally mens ) or gouchos, I have no problems wearing them. Perhaps because despite the lable I know it's mens clothing? I really do with though everyone was free to wear what they wished.