Social Experiment

[Trina82]

I know I've been talking about "giving it up" the past couple days, but oh well. I was out and about today, and decided to do a little experiment. I figure the response to male presence in a traditionally female-only location of a store is more accepted this time of year, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

I entered the mall at JC Penney's, and headed straight for the lingerie department. Nobody, aside from a youngish SA, was in there. She really didn't seem to mind me being there, and even asked how I was doing. I didn't buy anything, but looked extensively through what was available. In particular, I was looking for a racerback bra, but thought I'd check out the rest of the racks, just to see what they had. Either I am blind or they didn't have any racerbacks, so I decided to head on down to the next store.

Where else would I end up but Victoria's Secret. I kinda slinked in through the front door, and off to one of the side-rooms. I looked the walls and tables over and saw no racerbacks, so I headed back to where there were SA's and customers. There was one guy in there, and he would pass for a CD'er far before I would. He looked at me, gave me the nod, and affixed his sights on the SA right away. Nobody said a word to me in there, and I was fully expecting to be hovered over by a SA. The closest I found to a racerback was the same cotton bra, only in a normal back-close. I looked around a little more then left, again empty-handed.

Next, to Macy's. I found it hard to believe how big the store was and that they would tuck the "Intimates" department clear in a side room, far away from the women's clothing section. At any rate, I found one racerback in the entire selection there, and it was being heavily guarded by a rough old woman. I didn't feel like asking her to move, and it would have been kinda obvious that it wasn't so much a Christmas present due to the fact that it was plain white and not the traditional flamboyant colors and such that a gift normally would be. I left the store empty-handed and with a really bad taste in my mouth. Not only did that one customer ruin the experience, the SA's in EVERY department were staring me down like I was going to shoplift.

I decided I'd had enough of the mall and went to Wal-Mart. I had high hopes that they'd have a racerback bra there, but they didn't. I almost bought a longline, because those too have intrigued me for a long while, but decided not to. I ended up heading back to the sporting goods and looked at gun cleaning supplies instead.

So all in all, nothing special happened. I do know that my personal attitude towards it has changed tremendously since my first bra purchase, as this time I didn't feel like I wanted to vomit afterwards. It's also very interesting to see the expressions on peoples' faces when a guy walks into the bra and panty section and starts flipping through the clearance rack. :devil:

The result of the experiment is this: Christmas has nothing to do with it. People still don't think it's right for a man to buy women's clothing. I don't get it though, because I also checked out the mens sections, and there were women in there picking and sorting and acting like nobody cared...because nobody did!

[Diana West]

I too have done a similar observation.
Because I'm older and married, every clerk just assumed I was getting something for my wife.
Nobody watched me to make sure I didn't shoplift (one of the advantages of being over 40, I guess), but many assumed I had lots of money to spend and showed me the expensive items.
I agree with your results with one additional observance.
Most people don't think it's proper for a man to wear women's clothing so they create reasons why a man wold be looking in the women's section.
For me, they assumed it was for my wife.
For you, they probably thought you were going to steal something.

[Heelsnlegs]

I'll be visiting LA, where I am hoping I will have more success going out enfemme than where I live in Calgary. I decided I need to buy a few things for my first excursion out so I went shopping tonight. No one seemed to mind me in the clothing stores and were generally very helpful (thinking I was buying a gift I am assuming). I went into a shoe store where I found a pair of shoes I could wear with a pair of jeans; I really wanted the shoes but it was a clearance store ie no returns, so I decided I have to try them on. I asked the clerk ( a young girl) to come over and told her I wanted to try them on behind one of the stacks (the store was almost closing) Well she looked at me as if I was from another planet, and kept asking why? (She was oriental and her english was not all that good)Why would you want to try these on she asked as she looked at me incredulously? Well they kind of fit so I took them, and the other two girls at the counter didn't say a thing. I heard them giggle when I walked out.

Funny thing is I didn't really care much this time. But I guess the moral of the story is we are not accepted everywhere... some places more than others. I also think young girls and seniors have the hardest time accepting us. A lot of 30 to 50 women don't seem to care.

Well thats my adventure for the night. I hope I have better experiences in LA. By the way if anyone has any suggestions where to shop in LA, I would appreciate it. Does anyone think I could go into a Macy'e enfemme?

Hugs all

Jen

[Billijo49504]

Who gives a rip?!!! Your money is just as green as anyone'selse's Why didn't youask for a racer back bra. Then you would have known if they had them. Don't be such a wimp!!! Ask for what you want, and don't settle for less. I walk in a store, I'm the customer, I'm here to possibly spend money, if they got what I want. You have the money, you have the power...BJ

[Debb]

I have found that my awareness of self, of others observing me, is much greater when I shop in the women's section.

I strongly believe it is our sense of .. guilt, shame, whatever you want to call it .. that is making us feel this way. There is no logical reason for you not to be in the women's section -- it's just clothes fer cryin' out loud.

We have all been there. I think, Trina, that your senses are especially ragged right now with all the crap you've been putting up with; unfortunately, each of us must figure out for him/herself how to deal with these feelings.

Good luck.

[Rachel M]

Hey,
You forgot to go to Target. I have some really cute racerbacks from there. They are part of their "ultimate collection" they are very similar to my wifes VS racerbacks only $25 CHEAPER.
Rachel

[noname]

The reason it's considered ok for women to shop in the mens section is because it's either considered a gift or because they just like the style. People today have a misconception that men are by default perverts. Women on the other hand are not, and are permitted to express their sexuality through their clothing.

Back to shopping. It really doesn't matter what other people think. It's really their problem not yours. I recently went to VS for the first time. ( I'm perfectly happy with the style of mens underclothes, but not the colors. For whatever reason "designers" have deemed fun colors and prints on mens underwear a sin. ) I was super nervous. Couldn't figure out how the store was organized and basically lost. I asked for help, and she kept trying to sell me the matching bra. I assume she thought it was a gift. Even at the register they asked if I needed a gift box. It takes a lot of confidence and guts. Just remember it's their problem, not yours.

[Casey Morgan]

At any rate, I found one racerback in the entire selection there, and it was being heavily guarded by a rough old woman. I didn't feel like asking her to move, and it would have been kinda obvious that it wasn't so much a Christmas present due to the fact that it was plain white and not the traditional flamboyant colors and such that a gift normally would be. I left the store empty-handed and with a really bad taste in my mouth. Not only did that one customer ruin the experience, the SA's in EVERY department were staring me down like I was going to shoplift.

In retail you're trained to keep an eye on the people who "act funny", meaning people who act guilty or just a little TOO nonchalant or something like that. Quite simply you were being regarded as a potential trouble maker. Ask the pro shoplifters or the police: the best way to go undetected is to just be normal.

I take it that "rough old woman" who was "heavily guard[ing]" the department was the customer who "ruin[ed] the experience?" Nah, you transferred your feelings onto her and abscribed motives that you couldn't possibly know. You ruined the experience for yourself. Am I right in thinking she didn't say two consecutive words TO you?

I think despite your experiment you were expecting problems and you inadvertantly caused some and created others out of relative whole cloth. Next time just try to chill. It's easier said than done and it may take some practice but it's what you have to do.

[Diana West]

Who gives a rip?!!! Your money is just as green as anyone'selse's Why didn't youask for a racer back bra. Then you would have known if they had them. Don't be such a wimp!!! Ask for what you want, and don't settle for less. I walk in a store, I'm the customer, I'm here to possibly spend money, if they got what I want. You have the money, you have the power...BJ

For me, it was social observation, not economics.
I agree with you. We are the customer and we make the call. I've found after doing this, I prefer to shop at stores in which service and treatment of the customer have a high priority. If I'm just looking to save a buck, I go wherever, walk in, buy it, and leave. Otherwise I like to linger and look around and shop.

[Karren H]

Just by the words "slinked" I can tell that every SA would be watching you like a hawk!!! You have to walk in the door like your own the place, head up and proud...like you belong there and no one will say a thing...not even any looks!!! Gauranteed or double your panties back!! hehehe

Love Karren

[Bobbi Lynn]

Just by the words "slinked" I can tell that every SA would be watching you like a hawk!!! You have to walk in the door like your own the place, head up and proud...like you belong there and no one will say a thing...not even any looks!!! Gauranteed or double your panties back!! hehehe

Love Karren

RIGHT/WRITE on Karren!!

[Calliope]

I ended up heading back to the sporting goods and looked at gun cleaning supplies instead.


Easy there!

[JoAnnDallas]

Last fall I took my grandneice shopping before she went off to be a freshman at college. We ended up at Victoria Secrets and this SA came up to us and was nice but not too resposive. I pulled my Angel Card out and it was like a jet going into aftrburner. She lighted up like a christmas tree and turned the charm on. LOL. My neice ended up with a Bra and FREE piar of panties too. (I wanted the panties darn it) It just go to show that if you show them that your there to BUY attitudes change like magic. I have both a AnnTaylor and Chadwicks cards and the same thing happens in their stores when I pull them out of my wallet. LOL

BTW, I got all three cards in drab mode. Just went up to a SA and asked for one.

[Kristen Marie]

I used to have similar experiences, but now I look for interactions with the sales associates rather than trying to avoid them. Say hello, make eye contact, and after a little browsing, as a question about the product. See if there are any alternatives to that bra that might be similar. I have found (and I dress in drab when I shop), that they are usually very willing to help. I also almost always "underdress" when I go shopping. It just adds to my confidence.

The courage I have received from the support of this forum is amazing and has made shopping so much fun!

[Tatiana Thomas]

I used to feel as if everyone was watcing me with a raised eyebrow everytime I went shopping. My last time out, this past weekend, I decided that soon as I hit the place I was going to make a point to say Hi to the SA.
:happy: :happy: :happy:
Wow, what a differance it made me feel. I never felt as if I was being eyed and I was so comfortable that I ended up buying 2 sets of matching bra and panties when I only planned on getting a bra. The SA even helped me find my size too.

They were way to cute together to pass up.:heehee:

[Aprilrain]

I have to agree with Karren just walk in and look at what ever the hell you want to look at. if your nervous and look it you look like a theif or worse a pervert. anyway I took a big step about a month ago and walk right up tp a SA and showed her the clothes I was holding, a skirt and top, and asked her where I could try them on. I wasn't sure if she would want me to go to the dressing room over in the men's section. She was a little confused at first but then was very nice and tried to sell me more things after I came out of the dressing room (wearing my male attire). Now I just take what i want in to the dressing rooms and try it on I don't ask any more and nobody seems to care.

[AmberTG]

I was in a Maurices store today to buy a gift certificate as a christmas present and looked around at most of the styles, some are a bit too "young" for mebut, anyway, as I was looking at different stuff, I was having a running conversation with the SA working at the time about gauchos and tall boots, among other things. I was sorely tempted by a pair of really cute pumps that wound go really with jeans, nice rounded toes with almost like a "wingtip" style. It's easy to talk to the SA about clothes without being too obvious. I have to wonder what they're thinking as they're talking to a man about women's styles. :heehee:

[GraceUSA]

Not only did that one customer ruin the experience, the SA's in EVERY department were staring me down like I was going to shoplift.

I've always been a person that did not fit the norm, because of that just about every store watched me closely. Even been pulled into security at a store because they thought I was trying to shoplift. After that I learned I need to make eye contact, say hi and smile. Be confident. And if I can't find something and its not busy find an sales person for help. Takes a little getting used to it but I found it was a lot better than be treated like an criminal.

People tend to mistrust those they can not relate to, so I do everything, that is reasonable, to put them at ease.

[SatinSarah]

I have only shopped in drab and I am naturally very nervous. BUt over the lat few Christmas periods I have found it easier to go into department stores and buy all sorts of lingerie. Most SAs guess its for a wife. I brows through all sorts slowly and as though I am looking ofr a gift. Quite often they will offer to put it into a gift box for my wife. If I had guts I would say no I am going to rush home and try it on myself - but yes please always comes out of my mouth.

I have also bought dresses, tops etc. and again just be confident and don't feel guilty. I used to feel so nervous that I couldn't do it, but as nobody has ever said anyhting or looked at me strangely - and I learned I would never see them again in my life I got used to it. I have even bought my own make up by just putting it in the basket and paying for it. Simple really. However, I really admire you girls who shop en femme, try on things and make it clear its for you. Well done. Hopefully sometime I will get that far. I'm half way there!

[Trina82]

I recently went to VS for the first time. ( I'm perfectly happy with the style of mens underclothes, but not the colors. For whatever reason "designers" have deemed fun colors and prints on mens underwear a sin. ) I was super nervous. Couldn't figure out how the store was organized and basically lost. I asked for help, and she kept trying to sell me the matching bra. I assume she thought it was a gift.

...That wasn't you that I ran into, was it? :D

[shannonsilk]

I've been wandering around the women's sections and VS for so long i don't remember if i was a slinker at first. it did take a while before i felt nervous. side note-- i got my VS birthday gift crtificate. i wonder what i'll buy.

[EricaCD]

The theme expressed here is as true as it is consistent: What you are feeling when you shop for women's clothing (even lingerie) is not social disapproval but simply your own discomfort. You are projecting that discomfort on the people around you.

Nobody cares. If you don't want to enlist the help of a SA, then don't. Tell them you're just looking but you will be sure to find them if you need any help. If you want an SA to help, don't be shy.

I assure you that you will discover what many of us have learned: once you stop with the self-consciousness, the rest of the world will "magically" stop intruding on your dressing experience.

Good luck!
Erica

[suzy]

I haven't experienced the awkwardness in shopping that you described. I believe it is very important for us to be very confident when making ourchases. Go in, look, shop, as if no one was there watching. It is your store as much as anybody elses... Why do we have to care what other people think??? Life is all about us!!:hugs:

[lady lycra]

A few months ago, I was walking though Tesco ( A HUGE supermarket) doing a small shop.
As I passed the ladies clothing I saw a rack of short black shift dresses.
Being highly skilled in the art of speed tag reading, I spotted that they went up to my size and that they weren't that expensive (20 quid IIRC)

I plucked up the courage, turned my trolley around and went back to the rack. Found my size and carried on shopping.
I paid for all the goods, including the dress in a self service isle.

I got home, tried on the dress and it was too small :(
So I took it back. Digging deep into my confidence reserves, and after reading so many stories on here about shopping, I walked up to the clothing returns isle and told the assistant that it was the wrong size. She said that I could go and find the right size which I did. She then jokingly asked if I'd like to try it on.
My heart raced, and I said yes. The assistant smiled and led me to an empty changing room. I tried the dress on, it fitted, got changed and went back to the assitant. She wrapped the dress up and put it in the back, altered the receipt and said goodbye.
No giggles, no real embarrasment. I felt amazing.
I know buy my cosmetics, underwear and tights etc from this shop, mainly thanks to the self service check out. I do have to be careful though as my neighbour works there. Fortunately he's permanently on the overnight shift :)

LL

[Trina82]

See, I don't think it would ever go over (in my mind) for me to be that bold. I'm a very hairy guy, and I would just be too worried about image. I'm pretty well known everywhere around the most of my area, and it would have a serious impact on social and executive operations should anyone see me.

[RebeccaLynne]

Trina, Christmas, and for that matter, Valentine's Day, are excellent opportunities to purchase clothing, make-up, fragrances, and all things feminine. Rest assured that any hesitation, embarrassment or discomfort is all in your own mind. If anyone even took notice of your browsing, they'd naturally assume you were purchasing gifts. To take it one step further, ANYTIME of year is OK too, could always be a birthday present! Don't stress, just relax, and buy whatever your heart desires (budget permitting, of course). If you're uncomfortable trying clothing on, just save your receipts, and if it doesn't fit, exchange it 'till it does! Don't be scared!

[lady lycra]

Hairy? You say that you're hairy... You wanna see me :)
I shave about once a week if that.
Hair halfway down my back, and it's not girly hair... it hasn't seen a pair of scissors for over 5 years. It's just tied back, mainly to stop me eating it :)
My work sometimes calls for me to turn a lathe... Long hair and lathes don't mix! :)
My wife sometimes plaits it for me, but not as often as I'd like.

I don't dress to be feminine... well mostly not. I dress as I like the feel of the clothing, I like the look of it, and the excitement of kowing that "it's not right"

The only cosmetics I use are lipstick and nail varnish. Lipstick with a 7 day growth... Hardly feminine :) I just love the way it feels.

The great thing about these self service isles, is that if you pick the right time of day very few people use them. So it's walk up to the scanner, scan the goods (this takes ages) Pay for them with a card, pop them in the bag and your'e away :) No assistant behind the till, no bag packers, nobody.
It makes life soooo much easier. Strangely I could do it in a huge shop, but not in a small one.

I can't indulge too often as my wife doesn't approve, but the occasional few items here and there and she's OK. She tuts a bit, but that's about it.

LL

[Diana_BiMale_CD]

Hi all, this is a very interesting thread. I for one can wear my wife's clothes from when she was younger and she is one that likes to keep almost everthing. She can't wear them now, so I sort of inherited them without her knowledge. I just love her old mini's.

But I do have to shop for thigh highs and a few other intimate items and do most of my shopping at Wal Mart. I never really thought of being embarrassed about it. I just add nylons or whatever to my cart along with the dog food, food, etc and go through the checkout. I have never felt like anyone was looking at me funny or whatever, and I am in drab while shopping, as I have not ventured out dressed YET, but will soon get the courage I hope.

So I really believe it is all in the attitude you show while shopping. Women shop for their sons, daughters, husbands, etc, always have so it is accepted by society for women to be shopping in the men's or boys department. Husbands very seldom shop for their daughters or wifes's when it comes to intimates, but a few do. So what I'm trying to say, if you look natural while shopping I really think most will ignore you, or just giggle knowing you, as a man, are probably embarassed looking at those panties and bras. Even while giggling because of your expected embarassment they probably think you are buying for someone else who is a female. Most everyday people just don't really think of the concept that you may be a CDer.

So just act naturally and ignore the few rude people you may run into.

Gosh I hope this makes sense.

Hugs and Kisses
Diana:love:

[Trina82]

Well, this entry is sort of a two-fer. First point being that I had the opportunity to go back to a store that I'd shopped at before, and dealt with the same SA that I delt with before. Second point being that I bought some more stuff for myself, meaning that I'm really not done with my "hobby".

On the topic of the first point, it was really interesting today. I spent part of my Christmas bonus at Penney's. I walked in to a somewhat congested intimates section, and nobody even glanced at me as I walked in. Awesome. I spent probably 20 minutes looking through the selection, and ended up getting this white bustier and 2 pair of "cheeky" lace hipsters. I made it up to the counter to pay, and the SA that had waited on me earlier this year was again waiting on me. This time, she was a completely different woman.

Last time I was in there, she was kinda condescending towards me when I asked for help finding something for "my girlfriend". This time, she was very pleasant and offered suggestions, such as buying a different color panty to match the bustier, or buying one more pair of panties to get the $3 discount. I declined both pieces of information, and all was well.

And on the second point, I'm totally digging this bustier! It's a boned, "backless" push-up, and while it may have been a chore to hook and spin, it's amazingly comfortable! As some of you may know, I've had some back issues in the past, despite my young-ish age, and I have to say: What little back there is to this, and how it's just a little tight, it's very comfortable on my "healed" injury. The front and side boning helps a lot, too, as it forces me to arch my back just a little. Just to see what happens, I may strap up one of my posture bras, and see what kind of amazing posture I can create with the two. :)

The panties are going to take some getting used to, for sure. The instant I put them on, between the cheeks they went. It felt awkward at first, and I really wanted to pull them back out, but now I'm getting a little more accustom to it.

Tis the season, I guess.

[katey]

most of my shopping experiences have been quite easy going and fun. at first i was very nervous, and sometimes if the shop is crowded i feel a little uncomfortable.
i was shopping yesterday, and almost every SA asked "what size is she?" if there was something i really liked, i told the SA the items were for me, as i no longer will make a purchase without trying it on frst. one SA spent about 25 mins helping me find a top to go with the skirt i just bought, and then when i asked to try it on she didn't even bat an eyelid, picked the size and took me into the dressing room, where she waited outside to make sure the size was ok, it was too big, so she went and got a smaller one for me, and then tried to sell me some other stuff too. all up she spent about 45 mins with me. i will definitely be going back to that store, it's a shame that it's just a little bit expensive.
but i had a strange experience in a lingerie store, it was after i had started buying my own lingerie, but this time i was actually getting a birthday present for my GF at the time, the SA was very helpful, but i was really nervous that she would think it ws for me. and she did, she didn't say it, but she said to one of the other SA's "he's buying it for his GF's birthday, because she has just lost 10 kgs and he wants her to feel special." it was by no means malicious, but the tone in her voice said that she just didn't believe it.

long story short, as the other girls have saidconfidence is the trick.
most people will think you are buying for someone else.
and when you do find something you like, some SA's might give you a funny look, but ask to try it on, they want to make the sale as much as you want to make the purchase.

much love,
katey

[Joy Carter]

Hun I just went out this past Saturday and had a professional make up application at a MAC counter in Macy's. Only a couple of people looked my way and I just smiled and waved. Who gives a crap what they do or say. I feel so much better about being transgendered since I have been dressing up Joy.

[Kristen Kelly]

If I'm out in the mall in drab or enfem the difference is I don't give a hoot what others think, I feel and act as I belong there as much as any GG, head up and not afraid to make eye contact, my credit card is more of a problem once had a SA say I could not use my husband's card.

[Michelle (Oz)]

I'll be visiting LA, where I am hoping I will have more success going out enfemme than where I live in Calgary. By the way if anyone has any suggestions where to shop in LA, I would appreciate it. Does anyone think I could go into a Macy'e enfemme?

Hugs all

Jen

I quite like shopping both en homme and en femme but the most enjoyable and practical is to shop en femme. Like others, I am happy to communicate with the SA early on. It makes both of us feel more comfortable and they won't be caught off guard if I ask to try something on later. Shopping en femme makes it very clear the purpose of the shopping although I usually buy something for my (smaller) wife too.

I am sure that Macys in LA would be a great place to shop. Similar shops in Australia are great places with good rest rooms and attitude. They now have MAC cosmetics which is now my favourite drop in. Costs me money each time but they give me lots of great tips (with me as the model). Fantastic attitude by the SAs and no doubt double takes from the observant passer-by. Can't do that sort of thing en homme.

Michelle (Oz)