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Rita Knight
12-06-2006, 01:21 PM
Hi Everyone,
I previously had posted the article about the birth certificates a few weeks ago in the New York Times. Unfortunately, this proposal has fallen through. Here is the article from today's paper about that. Note to moderators, if you wish to delete or combine this thread because it is eleswhere, I do not mind that.

City Drops Plan to Change Definition of Gender

By DAMIEN CAVE
Published: December 6, 2006
New York City’s Board of Health unexpectedly withdrew a proposal yesterday that would have allowed people to alter the sex on their birth certificates without sex-change surgery.

The plan, if passed, would have put New York at the forefront of a movement to eliminate anatomical considerations when defining gender. It had been lauded by some mental health professionals and transgender advocates who said it would reduce discrimination against men and women who lived as members of the opposite sex.

But after the proposed change was widely publicized recently, board members and officials with the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene said that a surge of new concerns arose. Vital records experts said that new federal rules regarding identification documents, due next year, could have forced the policy to be scrapped.

Health officials said patients at hospitals asked how doctors would determine who would be assigned to the bed next to them. And among law enforcement officials, there were concerns about whether prisoners with altered birth certificates could be housed with female prisoners — even if they still had male anatomies.

“This is something we hadn’t fully thought through, frankly,” said Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, the city’s health commissioner. “What the birth certificate shows does have implications beyond just what the birth certificate shows.”

The board did approve a more minor change: Under a law passed in 1971, people who can prove that they had sex-change surgery could delete the male or female designation from their birth certificates. Now, they can change it.

Dr. Frieden said that this would bring New York City in line with most of the country and would help alleviate the transgender community’s concerns about discrimination. He said that going any further would have thrust New York into uncharted territory.

“We felt going into it that it was fairly standard, that other states had it on the books,” Dr. Frieden said. “But as we looked into it, we discovered that it was implicit, not explicit.”

He said it was “unfortunate” that the panel of experts convened by the department to address the proposal did not include anyone from institutions that may have been affected, like jails, schools or hospitals.

The panel instead consisted of doctors, mental-health professionals and advocates who overwhelmingly supported the plan.

Board members said the city should not act alone. Though the board has eagerly jumped ahead with bans on trans fats and smoking in restaurants, it decided against legislating gender on its own.

“We are not the only Department of Health. There is also the New York State Department of Health, federal regulations, and we cannot make this decision alone, said Dr. Sixto R. Caro, a board member and private practitioner in Brooklyn and Manhattan. “We must make the decision together with the Department of Health of New York State. That’s one of the reasons we had no choice but to wait.”

But according to some supporters of the withdrawn proposal, the motivations behind the city’s decision may have more to do with comments like the one sent to the health department by e-mail that asked, “Are you guys losing all sense of moral values?”

James Jay Carafano, a senior fellow at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative research group, said that the new federal identification rules would leave room for public and private agencies to address the issue of the gender.

However, transgender advocates accused the city of bowing to pressure from institutions and residents who feared interacting too closely with men who live as women and women who live as men. They noted that the city would have required doctors to verify that the gender change was permanent.

“I fear that because of the public attention the proposed change had attracted, they lacked the courage to give the proposed amendment the consideration it deserved,” said Shannon Minter, a board member and lawyer for Transgender Law and Policy Institute in New York. “That’s very disappointing.”

During its meeting yesterday, the Board of Health also voted to allow the city’s Department of Parks and Recreation to codify an informal policy that for the past two decades has allowed dogs off their leashes in certain areas of city parks from 9 p.m. to 9 a.m. Owners walking dogs will be required to carry licenses and of proof of rabies vaccinations, and the Health Department may rescind the policy if there is an increase in preventable dog bites or risk of rabies.

The proposal generated enormous public interest. More than 13,200 people expressed support for the change, including 11,312 who signed petitions. Only 202 individuals and groups opposed the change, citing concerns about attacks by dogs, irresponsible owners and animal feces.

Sewell Chan contributed reporting.

Rita Knight
12-06-2006, 02:38 PM
Admittedly I swiped this from a competing forum. However, I did check it physically against a copy of today's New York Daily News. Here is an editorial from today's paper. I could not find it on the paper's website.

Nothing more than feelings
Speaking of the Board of Health, yesterday it also wisely tabled a plan to allow transgendered individuals to change the sex on their birth certificate even if they have not undergone gender reassignment surgery.
Commissioner Thomas Frieden now thinks the proposal requires more study, since it might conflict with federal regulations. How about its conflicting with common sense? Or perhaps we all should be allowed to change whatever documents we like whenever we like just because we - and this is what it comes down to - feel like it. As in a man who feels like a woman. Or vice versa.
That's where it would eventually lead, you know. At some point, New Yorkers who deeply believe in the afterlife could well demand that the Health Department amend their death certificates to state that they are actually alive.
R.I.P., gender-record "reform." Please don't resurrect it, doc.

CaptLex
12-06-2006, 02:45 PM
And that venom is a great example of why I've stopped reading the NY Daily News. :Angry3:

I really sounded promising when this proposal was being discussed in the media recently, but what a let down! From the NY Times article, it sounds like they feared public repercussions and gave in to the uninformed (as usual). We can't give up, though. :sad:

Thanks for the info, Rita. We should all write a letter to the News and tell them . . . no, I better not say that here. :censor:

Kimberley
12-06-2006, 03:11 PM
:iagree: Cap'n

Common sense would dictate that they put it on hold until they look into the ramifications a little deeper. I can see the concerns but they are far from insurmountable.

I guess it boils down to a lack of will to engage in and enforce basic human rights and dignity.

It will happen eventually, just not today.

:hugs:
Kimberley

CaptLex
12-06-2006, 11:41 PM
We discussed this in group tonight, and another point came up that I had been too upset to even think of beforehand: our group leader had been interviewed by the Times with regard to this because he had testified at the Board of Health hearing and he mentioned how he would finally be able to marry his girlfriend once the F on his birth certificate was changed to an M. So, it seems that the gay marriage issue could also be part of it. As far as they can see, if a man doesn't have a penis, that makes him female and the thought that a woman would be able to legally marry another woman in our community, is just unthinkable to a lot of people. Just makes me crazy . . . :Angry3:

As you say, Kimberley, it will happen eventually - I really believe that. It's just frustrating because the Board of Health has been working with the trans community here for four years on this and had assured us that it would happen. I didn't attend the hearing last month, but those who did said it was a very positive atmosphere and they were made to believe it was going to happen. The decision is such a big letdown because it was so unexpected. :(

I'm sure this won't be the end of this subject, though.

Helen MC
12-07-2006, 06:46 AM
Here in the UK it is now law that someone who has had GRS can have their Birth Certificate and other Legal Documents changed. Perhaps New York could consult with our authorities on how this was enacted. As far as I am aware such a person would then be put in the hopsital ward which suited their declared sex not their birth sex and the same would apply if they were sent to prison, a M to F TG would now be put in a Women's Prison not a Male one. I do not think that these reforms have been extended to those people who whilst not having undergone GRS consider themselves to be of the opposite gender to their physical genitalia , eg the born male still having a penis who dresses and considers themself as a woman and who lives their life as such. and vice versa. I think they would still have to have Birth Certificate , Passport, Driving Licence etc in line with their birth sex and physical genitals.

Still, it is step in the right direction.

janedoe311
12-07-2006, 05:45 PM
Look into prisons.
You are a male you go into a male prison and if a female go into a female prison.

Gets a little messy when men get sent to woman’s prisons and women are in men’s prisons.

Then there is getting a strip search which some ladies said has happened at airports. Would you see it appropriate for a woman to give you a strip search, or a man giving a FTM before SRS a strip search? (might be ok by you but it would open them up to law suits.

So there is a purpose in a gender id on documents.

I would have a problem with anyone deciding their gender based on their mental state.

Yes change it after you have SRS but not before.

Sorry, a bit old fashioned.