Females having fun, males in grief.

[Alice Torn]

Do any of you remember the author, and poet, Robert Bly, back in the 80's, and 90's? He talked a lot about male pain, sorrow, and grief, and how our society has not let us "go down into the ashes", and , women don't like us facing it, either. The male energy has been under relentless attacj, for 40 years, or so. The female energy, has been on the rise, for 40 years. "Girls just wanna have fun!" It seems like the girls, are having all the attention, and fun, today, while a lot of men are in grief, sorrow, rejection. I go to singles dances, regularly, and see a lot of girls, gettin a "rainforest of attention, but, a lot of lonely, left out guys. I think that is why a lot of us, are "pushed over the edge", into dressing up, like we are putting a lovely lady onto us, or next to us, or experiencing a lovely dressed up lady, being what we can't have. I speak mainly of single cd's. A lot of guys cd, because the male energy, seens like a negative force, while the feminine, seens like a more fancyfree, carefree, fun, confident, and positive force! Male seems dirty, more angry, unwanted, sorrowful, and rejected. Female seems more fun, and accepted, and in demand, and nicer to look at. Truth is, it takes both, to have a society, procreation.I think it is very, very sad, that either gender, is considered more acceptable, than the other, very tragic. I admit, that I see very handsome men, and very cute, and beutiful women, and, a lot of us cd's look quite stunning, in some oufits! I seldom get to dressup, so, when in guy dress, I try to be a rugged gentleman, but, when dressed up, I look modest, but attractive, as if I were a woman, and try to look like a lady I would like to date, or marry. There are fantasies, when dressed fem, of being carressed, and laid, by a man, though. I try to keep it in the closet. Thankjs for your time. Lucille

[Calliope]

"Girls just wanna have fun!" It seems like the girls, are having all the attention, and fun, today, while a lot of men are in grief, sorrow, rejection.

Can't say I agree. Consider the relentless pressure to diet and the increase in plastic surgery for womyn. It may look glamorous but, ya'know, womyn have always been expected to suffer with a smile.

[crossing-the-rain]

Thank you for sharing the poem,thank you for reading my mind,thank you for telling the fact.
Rain.

[Stephenie S]

Yeah, what Day Tripper said.

Steph

[Brianna27]

I'm going to agree and disagree. The women in this society are under a lot of pressure by our culture to look the best that they can at all times.
With that being said women do have a lot more fun than the single guys in the world. They have their girlfriends that give them the security that they need to go about life. :2c:

[Beckii_aCDInOz]

My take on this is that a large % of Men are simply confused, they don't really know what women want. A percentage of Women don’t know what they want either. They know they want equality (As a male I totally believe they have every right to it too).

From a Man's perspective, some women expect Men to still open doors, pay for dinner and so on, yet in a different situation, open a door for them & you'll get a greasy look & maybe even a mouthful for being a chauvinistic pig, go figure.

Guys (not just CD's) are told they should get in touch with their feminine side, whilst in the same breath their told (by women) they have to be providers and be Men. Is it really any wonder why some guys feel intimidated, confused or at loss with what is going on.

In my mind the key to the problem is the problem and it’s not Men either.

I'm all for equality, but, that's pretty damn hard to deliver when the playing field keeps getting tilted.



hugs

x

beckii

PS I'm thankful that my SO & I appreciate what we've got in each other & there is no semantics in our relationship.

[Kate Simmons]

Females having fun? Good Lord, am I on the right planet? Please tell me it isn't so..............................Just Kidding! Happy Holidays everyone(even the girls!:heehee:)!:happy: Ericka

[Calliope]

I'm all for equality, but, that's pretty damn hard to deliver when the playing field keeps getting tilted.


Everyone wants democracy - unless there's an individual advantage to enjoy.

[Marla S]

Can't say I agree. Consider the relentless pressure to diet and the increase in plastic surgery for womyn. It may look glamorous but, ya'know, womyn have always been expected to suffer with a smile.
Reading this, it sounds a bit like women would be kind of will-less folks born to suffer. I gently reject this.
Of course there are excesses due to the "relentless" pressure, but most women I know are very well able to willingly balance advantages and disadvanteges of womanhood. Some just reject the pressure and some play the game to their benefit.

[Nike]

I remember reading Robert Bly in the early 90's when his "movement" was at it's peak. I think Bly was important and at the right moment in time, because he made it ok for men to consider "support groups" and therapy by making it all about masculinity. I felt in many ways that although he was talking about men taking back their masculinity, I perceived it as from the stance of a "victim of society". His message though was simple.

CHOOSE to no longer be a "victim".

As for men and women and equality, I find that everyone appreciates a gentleman, be they male or female. Ironically, because it's such a lost art, most people seem to enjoy having a door opened or held open for them. At least those who I have crossed paths with. Common courtesy isn't, common that is, so it's more remarkable today than ever.

Does it matter if it's offered by or to a female? I don't think it does, only that it happens at all. That is what is important.

[Calliope]

Some just reject the pressure and some play the game to their benefit.

Seems you've had the fortune to know more together womyn than I.

I was thinking about my first wife - 70's feminist, editor & publisher of a chic little music mag in the 80's - a total power-to-me kinda broad ... and, at times, in tears about weight gain and all the young groupies making her feel old.

Throwing away the trash last night, I saw a recycling box, equal parts diet books and copies of Allure magazine. Made me sad, made me mad.

[Lisa Golightly]

I think both sexes have equal chance to be happy... Those who wallow and complain of inequality would do so in Utopia.

[Holly]

I think both sexes have equal chance to be happy... Those who wallow and complain of inequality would do so in Utopia.:clap: :clap: :clap:

[tekla west]

Robert Bly and his Iron John movement was a flash in the pan. Bunch of guys out in the woods making spears and drumming. "Getting in touch" with thier "male energy." It was little better than its religious counterpart The Promise Keepers. Both spoke to men 'regaining' the power that somehow women had taken from them. Both spoke directly to a return of the subjection of women by men.

I don't think it takes a Sigmund Freud to get the analogy of a guy making a spear and walking around the woods holding it and singing to it. And the nearest drum circle was always just down the street where the hippies were banging on the bongos.

[Marla S]

... and, at times, in tears about weight gain and all the young groupies making her feel old.

Throwing away the trash last night, I saw a recycling box, equal parts diet books and copies of Allure magazine. Made me sad, made me mad.

Well, getting first gray hairs with about 20 ( completaly gray now, 40), male baldness starting about the same time, always problems with the teeth, etc. hasn't been fun for me either. Of course I had my "box" with "sad" supplies too. I wouldn't relate this to my CDing.
I remember that overwight male schoolmates had hard times too.

Point is, the pressure is not unique to women. It might be different, but the "benefits" are different too. Without the mentioned excesses they seem kind of balanced to me. Of course we all act within a framework of social standards and traditions, that restricts our freewill and causes the pressure, but in the majority of cases there are still degrees of freedom we can use to our benefit. Acting in a certain way means taking and giving. Meaning if you want the benefit in one aspect you have to pay with another aspect (win-win situations are rare). "You can't become slim with constantly overeating", but you have the choice to decide what increases your quality of life more: Compliments for your slimness or the joy of a good meal with friends.

What I reject is the generalized and anticipating victimization. This holds true for women and men. In this sense I agree somewhat with Beckii_aCDInOz. Feminist movement has by right taken a lot but has given less. Which IMO cause the mentioned confusion and hinders real equal opportunities for women too.

[Bethanygirl]

Men are still situated better than women in our current socio-political culture to find satisfaction and succes. Women however have tried to develop a positive culture spin to feel better about their situation and to try and empower themselves more greatly in our male-dominated society. Men do not promote themselves publicly/socially, they naturally do it personally/privately, (locker room talk, blond jokes, that time of the month jokes, and other forms of male superiority talk). Personally, my way of life has absolutely NOTHING to do with any of this, I have crossed because that is who I AM!

[Marla S]

Men are still situated better than women in our current socio-political culture to find satisfaction and succes.
This is only possible as long "masculine-culture" is valued higher than a "feminine-culture". And I am sorry to say, but some women and a part of the feminist-movement do just that.
('They shouldn't have burned the bras, but donate it to their hubbys' ;))

[princessmichelle]

I do wish I was female, but I do so in spite of:
* makeup being expensive
*lower pay for equal work, less respect for equal intelligence
* the horrendous bloating and other pains that some women suffer
* the damage that societally mandated high heels can do to your feet

Where do I sign up?:happy:

Princess Michelle

[tekla west]

I have a very radical friend of mine who says that women should not have burned thier bras, they should have burned thier boyfriends and the banks. She tends to agree with me that the mistake of the woman's movement was to go over to the dark side and work to get women more like men, when for the sake of the world, the opposite should have been true.

[Calliope]

Point is, the pressure is not unique to women.

I do believe it's much more acute for womyn.

Sure, overweight guys bum over their appearance but they rarely lose their livelihood because of it, whereas womyn, most of whom are normal weight, do stand economic reprisal for their appearances.

Beauty Myth is a very compelling book.

Which brings me to...


[...] the mistake of the woman's movement was to go over to the dark side and work to get women more like men, when for the sake of the world, the opposite should have been true.

That's certainly a savvy observation but, in the context, the men already had the jobs thus the power, so many womyn in the movement did what they feel they had to simply to 'join the party already in progress.'

What I think you're alluding to, men trashing the whole power structure and replacing it with a domestic economy - that's a much larger project.

Probably a commie plot, at that.

[Marla S]

I do believe it's much more acute for womyn.

Sure, overweight guys bum over their appearance but they rarely lose their livelihood because of it, whereas womyn, most of whom are normal weight, do stand economic reprisal for their appearances.
I didn't say it's equal, and maybe it's different in the USA, but it is a legend that boys have all the freedom and only the girls have to suffer.
(Boys might have one advantage: The beauty race is a bit less competitive between men than it seems to be between women (Who is responsible for that ?).)
An overwight and/or bald guy will hardly get a job as banker, manager (there is a reason that they all look alike) or in customer service here . And for other jobs too, the application for an employment of a 'good' looking one usually is on top of the fat one.
The other way round. A good looking woman might have a better chance than a good looking man. Probably due to reasons that might be called sexistic, but this is the other side of the medal; she might get the job !
If she knows to play the game, she is able to play it for her benefit. What's wrong with it ? Who is the 'victim' ?

Again, I don't say we are there, but despite all still excisting inequity, to be a women seems to have some advantages too. And it might help to focus a bit on the good aspects of womanhood too and to share them in order to get equal opportunities (and pressure) for all.

Beauty Myth is a very compelling book.
Well said.

[Satrana]

Reading this, it sounds a bit like women would be kind of will-less folks born to suffer. I gently reject this.
Of course there are excesses due to the "relentless" pressure, but most women I know are very well able to willingly balance advantages and disadvanteges of womanhood. Some just reject the pressure and some play the game to their benefit.

Yup I agree. Too many people jump onto the eternal victim bandwagon when it comes to this type of topic. Both men and women are under intense pressures, but it is up to each individual to decide for themselves how they will deal with it. The difference between male and female pressures is that women's pressures have had a lot more publicity and discussion whilst mens' have been largely glossed over as being a joke. A real man does not complain, does not cry etc and we are still living in a man's world where jobs and success are just handed over to us right?

Ironically feminism was supposed to release women from pressures and while it did a decent job dismantling the old traditional values, it just created a new impossible role model of the superior woman who could have it all. We live in a competitive world so I can guarantee you that these pressures will always be around in one form or another. Get rid of the old and a new one will pop up to take its place.:2c:

[Kate Simmons]

I agree with you Satrana that feminism has done very little for women in the workplace, especially in executive status. The wise woman will not directly "compete" with her male peers.She knows she cannot win a pissing contest. She will use her knowledge and experience as well as her advantage in the realm of interpersonal skills. A woman will understand her job well but will also understand her people and realizes that the success of her task largely depends on the well being of her people and she values them as such. When giving a directive, a male boss will say: JDI (just do it) because I said so(I'm the boss) and expects very little discussion. A woman will expect a job to be completed as well but is willing to discuss reasons for doing so and considers input, even if, in the end, her directive stands. Still, as you say, accomplishments by women seem to be downplayed in a male dominated world, whereas when a man does the same thing, he looks like the greatest thing since sliced bread. I've had several women bosses in the past and have had nothing but respect both for their position and for them as a person.The funny part is that when I was in a technical salary position to make process improvements in the company, I used the methods that women use as described above and had a very high success rate with the completion of my projects. While being congratulated by my superiors for jobs well done, they would usually say:"I don't know how you did it but...." to which I usually responded with a wry grin and said:"Well, I had a good team". They usually glossed over that little "detail". Little wonder I not only admire the way women dress but also them as people. Having this attitude has greatly helped me in the CDing journey and in the long run has not only helped me to understand myself and my duality better but also people(both men and women) in general. Sadly, the world does not generally recognize the accomplishments of women for the most part, maybe some day.:happy: EKR

[susie evans]

have you read the book iron john by robert bly