Male or female who defines it?

[janedoe311]

Some feel that GRS does not make a woman or man it is simply is a “peace of mind” for those who are in the wrong body. I am not religious so I do not have that bias, but most people are religious and for them you cannot change your gender, (ask the Pope), only the outward appearance. I see GRS as a lesser of two “evils” but I do see it a change in gender.

We cannot be who we are because of this society needing everyone to have a static label, either male or female. Androgynous is not acceptable, (look into those that are actually born androgynous and the ID problems they have their entire life, given choice of gender there is no androgynous check box)

In some states people can get their drivers licenses gender changed before GRS. In others you have to have GRS before getting it changed, even if you have been living as the opposite sex for years or for most of your life!

This society has not come with grips with this gender ID problem so it in a “state” of confusion, like many of us. I suspect it will be that way for a while, and many court cases..

Some Transgender trivia:

I read on the web that a woman put in an annulment on her marriage when her husband got GRS, because same sex marriage was not legal. The judge said he will have them both tested if they both test as same sex then he will grant the notion of annulment. Not a divorce an annulment. Annulments are usually reserved for the first two weeks of marriage for extenuating circumstances, like a shotgun wedding,(forced) or drunk.

(The problem with this gender test is that sometimes people fail these XX, XY tests according to their birth gender. I saw on TV a woman not being allowed to compete in the Olympics because she failed the test, I am sure she was a GG though.)

Not sure what the Olympics would have done with a XXY, of XXXY etc, Male or female?

You know that the Olympics is now allowing transsexual woman to compete against women? They have to be on hormones for at least two years. It has been found that the strength advantages males have, go away with two years of female hormones.

I also read that an East Germany woman is suing the East German government for turning her into a man with the steroids they gave her and her fellow athletes.) Look at pictures of the East Germany women at the Olympics before steroids and after, a big difference and it worked they won more medals.

Then there were two very masculine East German women that won gold metals and when gender tests were announced suddenly “retired”!

[Calliope]

Check M or F, please. It used to be Check Caucasian, Negro or Other - that got changed, didn't it?

Who Defines It? Those who have the power.

So it's time to get some power goin' for us.

[Marla S]

Most basic and fundamental definition is that by the gonades.
((potential)Sperm producer = male, (potential) egg-producer=female)

This definition is still used by biologists for animals and plants, and by the churches (monotheistic religions in general) for human beeings.

The drawback of this defintion is that humans have self-awareness and culture. This is when gender comes into play.
Someone might not be able to produce gonades but still has a gender (man, woman).
So everybody having the respective sexual characteristics is man or woman (they are able to fulfill the gender-role).

So far so good, but now there are those people that either have anatomical charactersitics of both sexes or their brain tells them their body has the wrong anatomical charactersitics in general.
This needs an extended definition of gender, which includes the completed sex reassignment.
The details of this extended definition are currently under discussion. Every country ( and organization) has it's own intepretation and limits. Ranging from completed SRS to the intention to have SRS. In any way SRS is the criterium (including HRT of course).
Because this redefinition is an ongoing process influnced by science, politics, and society, this is the place to jump in for us and get some power.

I have my doubt though, that the definition will be extended to "felt-gender-identity" during our lifetime, which would be important for the CDs and non/pre-op-TSs.

[Sierra Evon]

For me I know I should have been a girl from " Jump street " , ( born as ) ,
How do I know ? , I just do !!!!, I've never connected with the male world as a boy growing up, and even on thru my adult life, till now!!!, I dress as a girl full time , and I've crossed over the bounderies into the female relm, Life is too short as is , I may not have female anatomy , but I have the spirit of a female , mind and soul , and thats what counts , & I love long hair and pretty clothes too......:happy:

[Kimberley]

Sorry Jane, but I think most of us would consider SRS as nothing more than icing on the cake. Our psych makeup is already gendered and SRS will not change that one iota. Still it is desired as full closure but not essential for our existance.

No one determines gender however we are raised in accordance with our biological gender. That is where the problems come into play for us.

So who determines gender? Our parents do within their own experience, and occasionally they are wrong.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Kate Simmons]

Simply put, we have to define it ourselves. Society as an entity(created and maintained by humans) may not "accept" our own definition of ourselves. I'm clear in my own mind who I am but how do I convince others of that and how do I get them to recognize me as I want them to? Do I really have to? It depends on how important that is to you and "what price victory"?It's obvious we cannot stand up for ourselves by "hiding". Does that mean we have to expose who we are? You decide. Just how important is your identity(your self) to you? Mine is my very existance because without it, I cannot function. I floundered about for years never knowing my true self because of fear. Fear of losing my friends, fear of losing my family. In the end, I finally stood up for myself and all my "fears" were realized. That was my price for my personal victory. Needless to say, I'm still here and am confident in being myself and will remain as such until I finally cash in.How much we accomplish depends on how much we are willing to sacrifice individually and as a community. We have to decide if it's worth the effort and the "risk" to truely be ourselves and to be recognized as such. If we do nothing, we get nothing. Either way I know who I am. Is it worth it? That's the question each and every one of us has to answer.:happy: EKR

[Marla S]

Sorry Jane, but I think most of us would consider SRS as nothing more than icing on the cake. Our psych makeup is already gendered and SRS will not change that one iota. Still it is desired as full closure but not essential for our existance.

No one determines gender however we are raised in accordance with our biological gender. That is where the problems come into play for us.

So who determines gender? Our parents do within their own experience, and occasionally they are wrong.

:hugs:
Kimberley


Simply put, we have to define it ourselves. Society as an entity(created and maintained by humans) may not "accept" our own definition of ourselves.

Sorry that I have to disagree here. Though it is right, that we should define it by oursleves independent of how it is really determined, we sometimes have to leave the self-centered view.
If we like it or not, we are reliant on the status the society provides us. Starting from being able to participate in sport event, over name change in the drivers license or credit-card, health insurance, to anti-discrimination laws, etc.
Here the self-definition isn't of much help. We have to accept that there has to be an external definition by the society (this is one price to pay to become accepted). But as part of the society we (could) have influence on this external definition. This requires that we skip the self-centered view once in a while and take the society into account.

@Ericka/Rich
Thanks a lot for your kind PM. I will answer tomorrow.

[Kimberley]

Marla, I think we are saying the same things just from different points of view.

You are correct about being self centered of course, but this is also very personal, to the core of our being. It is hard to step back from that.

:hugs:
Kimberley

[Stephenie S]

My view is that the ONLY authority is ouselves. Who else can do it? I was clearly born a male. I have all the right parts in all the right places. Yet for as long as I can remember I have known I was female. Who is right?

In this kind of identity question I can see no other authority than ouselves. How do you know you are heterosexual? You just know. How do you know you are homosexual? You just know. How do you know you are transexual? You just know. Does someone else have the right to disagree? Perhaps yes. But who is the ultimate authority? You, or someone else?

Here comes a little boy. He says he is a girl, not a boy. This is something ONLY he can know. Are you inside his head? No! He is, though. Who else can know? You can say he will have a rough time of it if he chooses to be a girl, but do you have a right to say he is wrong?

Here comes you. Headed for the DMV to get a nice big F on your licence. You say you are female. The man says no, you are male. Who is right? Does he have the right to decide, or do you? It's your life.

This is a thorney question, frought with different points of view, but I think only we can decide something this internalized.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[cindianna_jones]

From the biological standpoint... our offspring define it. If we are capable and are successful in producing offspring, then we have either contributed the female or male component.

Unfortunately, we have this self perception thing runnin round in our head. And in this, we define our own.

Cindi

[Marla S]

Marla, I think we are saying the same things just from different points of view.
:happy: I think we are not too far apart in general, maybe except for the different point of view, once in a while.

[pattyme]

Nature defines our gender, we have the option to live with it or fight it. I have fought it and now I am going with it. Listen to John/Jone this is what his story is about. There may be cases where gender realy is not defined by nature but for most of us it is. Having the right anatomy does not make you a girl or a boy. If genitals determined sex there would be no FTM or MTF as they would be defined by their genitals. Not growing up with the right anatomy does not change who you are or which gender you. The limitation you face is not have all the experiances of an anatomical femal - but it does not mean you are not female. The power we have is to correct our anatomy but we do not have the power to chose our gender - if we did then this would be a purly phycological condition. Phycologists recognize that gender disorder is not a phycological condition but rather a condition with phycological consequences. Therefore, this is a biological condition and is determined by nature but misconstrued by socieity. I am a biological girl with male anatomy. Prove me wrong.

Accept what you are, understand the self, fix the body.

Patty.