Religious condemnation of cross dressing?

[Joyciecd]

I sort of mentioned this in another thread, but would like a direct answer if one exists. Here is the premise: Various religious sects point to verses of the Bible as a basis for condemning homosexuality. Here is the question: Are there other verses in the Bible that allegedly also condemn cross dressing?

[Tina Dixon]

I sort of mentioned this in another thread, but would like a direct answer if one exists. Here is the premise: Various religious sects point to verses of the Bible as a basis for condemning homosexuality. Here is the question: Are there other verses in the Bible that allegedly also condemn cross dressing?
Was there even male and female clothing back when the book was wrote?

[CD Angel]

Im Not Quiet sure im a cristian and i go to church dressed but the vicar has never said anything so i dont thinkl there is anything in the bible about crossdressing

[Marla S]

Are there other verses in the Bible that allegedly also condemn cross dressing?
No, except for Deut. 22,5. But you are a sinner anyway because: You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself.(Deut 22,12).
I don't know anybody who does this.

[Casey Morgan]

As currently translated there is something in the old testament that says men should not wear women's clothes. Interestingly enough there are some rabbis who are saying that's a mistranslation.

[JoAnnDallas]

I was always taught that the New Testament superseded the Old Testament and there is nothing in the New Testament that prohibics crossdressing.

[Kerry Owens]

Well, if you consider that male and female clothing had very little difference, both being simply tunics with minor modifications, well...it was a very blurry line to say the least.
About the only concession to biological differences might be those for a nursing mother, otherwise they were pretty much the same.
The Jewish laws of purity also did forbid the weaving of both wool and linen together, so folks, we're already breaking the law as it was written. THe way I understand it, the clothing issue is minor. It's what you do with your life, and how you treat your fellow human beings and upholding what you believe.
For those who don't believe, even if you don't care, I'd say treat others as you would be treated, you might be surprised at the positive feedback even for that much.

[Kimberley]

This whole religious angle is exactly (well one of) the reasons I left the church.

In my ignorance as a "christian", there are only 2 segments of the Bible that are explicit; The Ten Commandments and The Beatitudes. Everything else is mans twisted interpretation to suit his personal needs or bias. If one can live a life according to those two passages it will be a life well lived.

This is why I describe myself as spriritual, not religious.

Kimberley

[Marla S]

Here is an interesting link how Deut 22:5 is discussed concerning women and pants. This gives some insight for CDing too.
http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/women-pants.htm
In short: A warrior shall not wear womens clothes (I'd say that is reasonable ;))and a woman shall not wear armor or clothes of a warrior (that's discussable, because nobody should).



In fact, God Himself made clothing for Adam and Eve that was so similar that one word (kethoneth) could describe the specific garment he made for each of them. This same word describes the clothing worn by Godly men and women throughout the Bible from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Yet today, many Christians demand much more than even the Bible did by requiring not only a difference in style but a difference in function and form as well. If God makes no such clothing demands on His people, then who are we to make them? Do we know better than God?

[Bethanygirl]

Just remember, organized religeon is like governments, no matter how pure the reasons for their founding/existence, they become entities that exist to survive. Divorce yourself from any of their agendas that you don't agree with, they have nothing to do with Gods word, and everything to do with church politics. Your take on God and the Bible is just as valid as anyones. Anyway, would God condemn us for being what he made us? No this is not a test, if it had been an actual test this warning would have been followed by instructions from your local Diety...

[Diana West]

For Christians, the New Testament applies to us.
That is the new covenant based on the belief that "you must love God' and "love one another."

So basically, there is no mention of crossdressing in the New Testament.

[Lisa Golightly]

I think it was game over with Adam and Eve.

[Nikki Dee]

I'm not encumbered by this religious "thing"...I'm not a believer....I am Pagan in my beliefs (shock..horror!!)...but I thought that Christianity/Church was supposed to be big on compassion, tolerance and forgiveness anyway.???????
Nikki. x

[Marcie Sexton]

I was ask a question by my neice which I posted previously about going to hell because I dressed...well thanks to some friends I was pointed to some very interesting info, although not a religious person, I got a book "By The Grace of God" by Lee Frances Heller. She provide quotes in both books of the bible and has pretty much settled my mind, that the dress will not put me in the hottest pits of hell, rather the person inside will allow me in to the gates of heaven...
I highly recommend this book. Very settling for me, and perhaps for all you too...:2c:

[dancinginthedark]

As stated this is from the Old Testament and the New supersedes the Old. Some will argue of course that since there is no mention in the New Testament regarding cross-dressing we must use the guidance found within the Old. IMHO the one mention is not relevant. If it was I’d worry about using a donkey along side an ox when plowing the field or building a parapet around my new home’s roof to prevent blood shed on my home should someone fall from up there. (Deuteronomy 22:10 & 8) We don't pay much attention to mention of a man’s second wife (not to be confused with an ex-wife. Remember divorce was a big no-no. Here it means married to two women at the same time) and the rights of the first born with your un-favored wife now days either. (Deuteronomy 21:5)
I know of no other reference that is directly made to cross-dressing in the Bible Old or New Testaments. The references found elsewhere are about homosexual activity and/or the using of a male for sex by another male: women had a much lower status in society so this act would be the ultimate insult to the male being used (as a female). Also some men chose to be sexually with other males who were more effeminate in looks, no facial or body hair for examples, rather than a lowly woman. But like I said those are different topics.
Some argue that cross-dressers may see their own image as more pleasing than that of the Lord. So it is argued that it is then idolatry and a sin. ~ I've had this debate with someone close to me a time or two, and while I don't see it as a sin I do respect another's choice to see it differently. <sigh> We have agreed to disagree.

Dancin

[JoanneB]

You can believe what you want to, but the ENTIRE Bible is THE word of God. And,yes, crossdressing IS an abomination unto God. Do I do it? Yes, I do. Does it mean that just because you cd you are automatically condemned to an eternity in hell? No, it does not. Everyone has an equal chance of being one of God's elect. The choice is God's-not yours. Obviously, the right thing to do is stop cd'ing and stay away from it. Can I completely stop doing it? No, I can't. I still do it, but I do have guilty feelings about it. Guilty feelings-because I know that it angers God. Yes, I pray for forgiveness every day. Several times a day, in fact. If you want THE truth, simply read the Bible. Yes, it is a very difficult book to understand-after all, God is infinite. He purposely made it difficult to understand. But, you must read the whole Bible. You just can't take a verse here and a verse there and then say that you know the entire Bible. If you want more insight into the Bible, find a Family Radio station in your locale and listen to it. Or go to www.familyradio.com to learn more.
Okay, I will stop now. But this is not the end of it all. I only wish everyone all the best.I wish that no one would go to hell, but the fact is some will. May God have mercy on all of us.

[Karren H]

Glad I'm a heathen.....hehehe

Love Karren

[donnapink]

I have often thought about this and I believe God loves us whatever we wear and will judge us by our actions. If you live a life that is guided by love not hate those that count will only see the love.

Merry Chritmas every one , peace on earth:happy: :evilbegon

[linnea]

These subjects fascinate me. I try not to get into them because they are replete with personal biases, convoluted reasoning, and sometimes wild interpretation. Nonetheless, like others, I wonder what the Bible or other sacred works say about any number of topics.
As far as crossdressing goes, the King James version of the Judeo-Christian bible says, "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God." Contemporary men and women would be in trouble if we enforced these prohibitions, assuming that we could decide clearly what "pertaineth unto a man" and what is "a woman's garment." Is a kilt a woman's garment--not in Turkish, Greek, or Scottish cultures (to name a few). Is a blouse a woman's garment--not in military lingo where "blouse" is often used to designate a dress shirt for males. Do pants pertain to a man--on the streets of almost any street in the western world, one would not be able to tell this from common practices.
I know that many Christians believe that the "old" covenants do not apply to the Christian believer because Jesus came to establish a new covenant. His life, ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection established that new covenant for believers.
Given that fact that clothing necessities, trends, fashions, and fads have fluctuated so far and wide over the centuries, and given the great ambiguity inherent in the idea of "gender-specific" fashion, I think that it is safe to say that the Deut. 22:5 holds little if any strength for anyone, ancient or modern. It would be, IMHO, a silly God who would quibble over such a thing.
I await the lightning to strike.

[Diana West]

You can believe what you want to, but the ENTIRE Bible is THE word of God. And,yes, crossdressing IS an abomination unto God. Do I do it? Yes, I do. Does it mean that just because you cd you are automatically condemned to an eternity in hell? No, it does not. Everyone has an equal chance of being one of God's elect. The choice is God's-not yours. Obviously, the right thing to do is stop cd'ing and stay away from it. Can I completely stop doing it? No, I can't. I still do it, but I do have guilty feelings about it. Guilty feelings-because I know that it angers God. Yes, I pray for forgiveness every day. Several times a day, in fact. If you want THE truth, simply read the Bible. Yes, it is a very difficult book to understand-after all, God is infinite. He purposely made it difficult to understand. But, you must read the whole Bible. You just can't take a verse here and a verse there and then say that you know the entire Bible. If you want more insight into the Bible, find a Family Radio station in your locale and listen to it. Or go to www.familyradio.com to learn more.
Okay, I will stop now. But this is not the end of it all. I only wish everyone all the best.I wish that no one would go to hell, but the fact is some will. May God have mercy on all of us.


When it comes right down to it.
Aren't we all naked before God?

[KimberlyS]

Joycie, My wife chose a Christian base counselor housed in a baptist seminar for our counseling. It took about a year to get an answer and backup references for the direct question of:

"Is there anything in the bible against Crossdressing?"

He avoided the question very well, skirted the question by trying to include other things with the CDing, like lieing to the wife or others, deception , affairs, homosexuality,... each which can be a whole topic in it self. After several sessions he finally answer the question as yes. His game than continued as I asked for:

Specific points in the bible where this was and any references he could give.

He once again did the avoiding the question, skirting the question and trying to include other things with CDing. After about a year in a session with my wife, he finally conceded that there was nothing in the bible against cross dressing, it was only society norms that were against it. I was nice and did not call him a lier to his face. It was about a year of hell for me because no matter what I presented to my wife she believed none of it.

Well we have had three different counselors within this Personal and Family Counseling Center housed in a seminar, and each of they have answered the question the same, and my wife made sure as she has asked it and it has been one of the first things she has asked each of them. So from what my wife and I have been told, if you take just CDing:

There is nothing in the Bible against cross dressing.

I you have any information otherwise I know of a counselor that could use the references for his use.

KimberlyS - CD

[JulieCDorlando]

Hello,
In regards to religious attitudes about crossdressing, there are a couple of churches that are becomming more open to CD's, TG's Unitarian churches, Metropolitan Community churches, and from what I been hearing even some Episcopal churches are beginning to be more accepting of those of an alternative lifestyle, to name a few.
I am of the belief that God is concerned with where your heart is towards God and worshipping (love) of him first and foremost, and of your fellow human being. The Devine Creator isn't concern so much with what you wear or not. It is written that one should believe in what God has to say more so than what man has to say. God does speak to everyone if only we take the time to listen. Man institutes laws that supercede God's laws. Man judges others by mans laws by invoking the name of God as their reason for judging. The Pharasee's did the very same thing at the time that Christ began his ministry, and Jesus rebuked them for making it difficult for the simple man to get close to God.
Only you and God can determine if crossdressing is bad or not. No human being can or should throw a guilt trip on you. Christians should read the bible more closely and withold judgement as the bible says to. Christians should love unconditionally just as God loves them.
My point being is, be who you are. Love God for who God is first, but also love everyone for who they are, do not judge anyone. Do adhere to the golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Even if some do give you grief over such things as CDing in religious matters, only you and God will know what is right and true. :2c:

[Emily Ann Brown]

Speaking as an X minister and as one who underwent Christian counselling demanded by my wife (counsellor finally admitted he couldn't see the big deal if I wasn't doing immoral things as part of my dressing) we all fall far short of God's standard and have more to concern ourselves with than whether or not we will go to hell for putting on a skirt. I pray when dressed and God answers just as well as when I'm in drab mode. I know He still loves me. So...let's move on to the "love your neighbor as yourself " command.

Emily Ann

[Sweet Virginia]

God loves us all, god can do no other, for God is love...

[Vanessa Sheridan]

At the risk of sounding self-serving (and I'm really not trying to promote myself at all here), you might want to check out my books, "Crossing Over: Liberating The Transgendered Christian" and "Transgender Journeys," for some in-depth exploration of the whole transgender/Christian spirituality thing. They're available online at amazon.com.

Be assured, God is much more interested in what's inside of you than what's on the outside. Anyone who tells you differently is focusing on the wrong issues (and probably has 'way too much time on their hands). Non-Christians shouldn't care one way or the other, and Christians should be concerned more with building you up than tearing you down.

[Sierra Evon]

my view and what I know of the Bible is just this, Jesus died on the cross for your sins & all that call up his name will be saved, thats the bottom line ...
However , If you view other wise , thats fine too, I'm not judgeing anyone here and never will.......God bless :happy:

[Country girl]

As stated this is from the Old Testament and the New supersedes the Old. Some will argue of course that since there is no mention in the New Testament regarding cross-dressing we must use the guidance found within the Old. IMHO the one mention is not relevant. If it was I’d worry about using a donkey along side an ox when plowing the field or building a parapet around my new home’s roof to prevent blood shed on my home should someone fall from up there. (Deuteronomy 22:10 & 8) We don't pay much attention to mention of a man’s second wife (not to be confused with an ex-wife. Remember divorce was a big no-no. Here it means married to two women at the same time) and the rights of the first born with your un-favored wife now days either. (Deuteronomy 21:5)
I know of no other reference that is directly made to cross-dressing in the Bible Old or New Testaments. The references found elsewhere are about homosexual activity and/or the using of a male for sex by another male: women had a much lower status in society so this act would be the ultimate insult to the male being used (as a female). Also some men chose to be sexually with other males who were more effeminate in looks, no facial or body hair for examples, rather than a lowly woman. But like I said those are different topics.
Some argue that cross-dressers may see their own image as more pleasing than that of the Lord. So it is argued that it is then idolatry and a sin. ~ I've had this debate with someone close to me a time or two, and while I don't see it as a sin I do respect another's choice to see it differently. <sigh> We have agreed to disagree.

Dancin



:iagree: I have to say having been in the Church my whole life and having been a Christian since I was 13 years old, I have to agree with Dancin.
The thing is that in GOd's eyes all sin is equal. It also says in the Bible, if you have thought it in your heart, you might as well have done it. Matt 5: 27-30 We are all sinners. So I think that you have to live your life treating people the way you wish to be treated. If you believe in your Heart that Jesus died for our sins, then the bible says you will go to Heaven. John 3:16

I have a saying that I would like to share with all of you.
Grace is receiving what we do not deserve, Mercy is not receiving what we do deserve. Mercy and Grace are of God. I do not believe you will go to hell because you CD. There are far worse things to worry about.

Merry Christmas everyone, CG

[hotbobbie]

God who cares just be yourself and live life the best you can without those that lived 2 thousand years ago telling you what to do today.

[Bernadina]

I always figure that if you don't like what the books says, don't read the book. After all books are written by people not deities.

[Kate Simmons]

Deut.22:5 refers to the fact that women should not wear armor and go into battle. Likewise a man was not to seek to shirk his duty as a defender of the nation of Israel by hiding in a woman's garment and pretending to be a woman. Each sex had it's assigned duties in the nation of Israel. To fail to perform those duties as prescribed by the Law given through Moses was considered falling short or a sin. Laws and decrees notwithstanding, each of us is responsible for his or her own actions. There is no pure good or evil per se, only choices. We must be prepared to live with the results of whatever choice we make however. Whatever we believe, this is the way things work.:happy: Ericka

[USNguyNskirt]

I have discussed this with many people. Unless you are Jewish and follow the ways of "the old law" then DEeut. 22:5 doesnt apply to you. It only applies to you if you keep kosher, wear clothes all made of one thread, and stone adulterers to death. That being said, that is the ONLY verse that talks about crossdressing in the whole Bible, and EVEN IF by some chance you ARE jewish, it is still not even condemning you. Crossdressing was a form of pagan worship back then. Or I should say many that crossdressed back then worshipped a pagan God. They had crossdressing ceremonies. On top of that, you must consider the times. Back then women were not allowed to enter the temple to worship and men MUST go to war when they were old enough. If you disguised yourself as the opposite sex you could get away with either of these. If anyone wants to discuss the issues further please hit me up with a message. I was planning on going to college to be a youth pastor and have had this discussion with quite a few pastors, as well as done my research on the internet and frankly, I've prayed about it and feel that God has given me a serious answer. Basically, if you feel ashamed of what you are doingm, then for you it might be wrong. But myself, I have prayed about it many times and I truly feel God put it in my life for a reason, maybe to teach me humility, or maybe to jsut teach me to not be so quick to judge others. Regardless, he loves me for me and my belief in him and his son is ALL that matters. Now as far as homosexuality....we wont go there. I dont want to be thrown off this board...... To each his own. Just rememebr, in the end, YOU are the one that has to answer to "The Big Man". So don't do anything YOU arent ok with. If you are ok with it, and you think HE would be ok with it, to HELL with what other people think. (and if you want to use that statement to justify murder "In God's name, so be it, but remember, like I said, In the end its YOU who have to answer to him, not anyone else.)

[Joyciecd]

There have been some extremely thoughtful and insightful posts on this thread. Thank you to all the girls that took the time to ponder the question then provide answers, some of which are in great detail. A new question is generated by the responses: Is CDing a choice, and therefore willful behavior, or is it an inborn compulsion beyond our capacity to willfully reject it? In my view, it is beyond my willful control, although it can be retarded for periods due to social and/or other pressures, but after these forced lapses, the urge seems to be even stronger and more compelling, satisfied only by dressing. I would love to hear other opinions about this.

[Holly]

Here is the only passage of scripture in the Bible that I know of (New International Version)
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.If you choose to live by the law, then you best live by the entire law. If you violate any provision then you are guilty of violating all of it. Me? I'd much rather follow a different scriptural passage...
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.Christians have a personal relationship with God. If you're in doubt, ask Him! I have no problem reconciling my cross dressing with my Christian life. God and I have had lengthy discussions over the issue (aka prayer). He's not stressing over it. I'm not going to either.

Religious Discussion Group Moderator

[Christina Nicole]

There are several good discussions of cross-dressing and the Bible on the 'net. Have fun Googling! I will not restate what you can find elsewhere. However with regards to the Old and New Testaments, the New does not supercede the Old. Both are equally valid, have important truths and lessons. However the laws of the Old Testament are part of the Old Covenant that God made with the Israelites. That contract, covenant literally means contract, does not apply to Christians as God made a New Covenant though the sacrifice of his Son, Jesus. Thus the laws binding on Christians are those of the New Testament.

While one may argue, for example, when Jesus said the greatest of the Laws was to love God and the second was to love man, that he re-wrote the old laws. That's beside the point. The key to understanding is the New Covenant.

Also, I spoke to my parish priest about cross-dressing. There is not prohibition regarding it. Since I am Catholic, I also checked the Catechism and it also says nothing about cross-dressing. However, if cross-dressing, or any other activity, leads one to sin, then one should avoid that activity. So if cross-dresser is unfaithful to his wife when he's dressed, he should not dress as a woman.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[RonnaDee]

Religion or Politics, subjects which bring forth discussion.

Do not be concerned what the bible says about crossdressing. As others have said there was not that much difference in the manner of dress in ancient
Judea.

To thy own self be true.

If I remember some historic reading I came across on ancient Rome, there was a class called the "casterati", men who had removed the male organs and dressed and acted like women. A form of sex change in those ancient times, they were accepted.

Live your life and be happy!!!:love: :bye: RonnaDee

[Joy Carter]

As a young man taking catechism I felt pangs of guilt when during one of my assignments I read the passage in Deuteronomy. I think I might have been twelve at the time. I tried hard to make the feeling go away because I knew at the time it was a sin. Since becoming an adult, and reading more I knew God loved me for me, not what garment I choose to ware at the moment. When we do pass and we stand before God we will have no earthly form thus no sex or gender to display before him. He will be judging souls, nothing more.

[MarinaTwelve200]

There are LOTS of "Christian" sects out there----some are 'sensible" and tolerant, while others are downright "screwball". Find a Sect that pretty much FITS how YOU think.

Now this is a not "pick and choose", looking for loopholes thing, as most large major sects are founded in sound theology and "educated" interpretation. No established Christian sect is "wrong", despite what some competing sects say.

PAUL SAID in his letter to the Corinthians (or was it Romans?) the ONLY thing that really counts is that your sect teach "Christ Crucified" ---everything else might be different---as it is how different groups of people choose to honor God---rules for baptisim, rituals, some rules and beliefs, etc, may vary. ANd we are supposed to "respect the beliefs of other Christian sects---and THEY our own , in turn.

Thus we have the spiritual freedom to pick and choose a sect that is more compatible to our beleifs and be OK with God. Mainstream groups like Episcopals, Methodists, etc are most likely to be more tolerant and flexible in their beleifs. While small, or independent sects, and some subdivisions of "Baptists" are usually less flexible. Beware of any sect that considers themselves the ONLY "true" Christians.

My apoligies to Jewish or Pagan folks out there, I am sure a similar situation exist in your case too---I am just addressing the Christian options in this post.

[Cera]

I've read all the posts and come to the conclusion that none of us know if crossdressing is a sin or not, and we're not gonna know until judgement day comes. Yes we can look to passages from scripture and talk with priests, and probably come up with a different answer each time. So let's stop spending valuable time searching for an answer to justify what we do when that time could be so much better spent praying to the Lord, especially this time of year, and giving thanks to Jesus for the sacrifice he made for us.

As for Joycie's other question, is CD'ing something we choose to do or something we're born to do. I used to believe it was a choice, but after numerous purges and returns to CD'ing over the years I wondered. However thinking of it the following way always brings me back to believing it's a choice we make. Is an alcoholic born an alcoholic, or did a series of choices in his/her life bring them to being an alcoholic? Just because quitting is a hard thing to do doesn't mean we were born to do it.

God Bless you all, and kudos to JulieCDorlando and Christina Nicole. I thought your responses were excellent.

[Penny]

You can believe what you want to, but the ENTIRE Bible is THE word of God. And,yes, crossdressing IS an abomination unto God. Do I do it? Yes, I do. Does it mean that just because you cd you are automatically condemned to an eternity in hell? No, it does not. Everyone has an equal chance of being one of God's elect. The choice is God's-not yours. Obviously, the right thing to do is stop cd'ing and stay away from it. Can I completely stop doing it? No, I can't. I still do it, but I do have guilty feelings about it. Guilty feelings-because I know that it angers God. Yes, I pray for forgiveness every day. Several times a day, in fact. If you want THE truth, simply read the Bible. Yes, it is a very difficult book to understand-after all, God is infinite. He purposely made it difficult to understand. But, you must read the whole Bible. You just can't take a verse here and a verse there and then say that you know the entire Bible. If you want more insight into the Bible, find a Family Radio station in your locale and listen to it. Or go to www.familyradio.com to learn more.
Okay, I will stop now. But this is not the end of it all. I only wish everyone all the best.I wish that no one would go to hell, but the fact is some will. May God have mercy on all of us.

Religion is always a volital subject. While the Bible is the greatest book ever written, it is not totally acurate and to take word for word is just as dangerous as to extract segments. The bible was written by sprited men with whom god spoke, sometimes directly and sometimes indirectly. The sole purpose of the bible is to connect with and maintain a relationship with god.
No one here is qualified to answer the ultimate question "is crossdressing a sin". Only god can answer that question as it pertains to each one of us.
Many years ago I asked God to free my sole from crossdressing and I was allowing him to guide me daily but bearing much guilt and shame.
Looking at my avitar, he did not. Instead, he releived me of the guilt and shame, doubt, confusion and fear.
Perhaps his sole purpose for denying me my request, was to write this response. Who really knows why?
If you open up your heart to god, you will get your answers, they may not be what you want but you will get answers depending on how well you want to hear.

:love: to all

Penny

[Delila]

Well I am not religous per say but I did spend several years trapped in a baptist private school. Even with their uber christian beliefs they agreed that when jesus died on the cross he undid all sins for all people. I also believe there is a verse in the new testament that basically says that old testament rules no longer apply I mean otherwise we would still be sacrificing animals to pay for our sins. While I happen to be pagan now and I give these beliefs little concern I do think that those who choose to follow christianity should follow what they feel is right not what anyone else tells them.

[Stephenie S]

If you claim you are a Chistian, you should learn the teachings of Christ. Jesus Christ said nothing about crossdressing. Jesus Christ said a lot about love and acceptance.

I could write a lot more, but I really think this says it all, don't you?

Steph

[Marla S]

A new question is generated by the responses: Is CDing a choice, and therefore willful behavior, or is it an inborn compulsion beyond our capacity to willfully reject it? In my view, it is beyond my willful control, although it can be retarded for periods due to social and/or other pressures, but after these forced lapses, the urge seems to be even stronger and more compelling, satisfied only by dressing. I would love to hear other opinions about this.
There seem to be some evidents that prenatal neural development of the brain is somewhat indepenend of the developement the anatomical sexual charactersitics. The brain develops earlier than the respective sexual organs.
Hence it seems possible to develop some neural characteristics of the opposite sex.
If so, TG (research focuses predominately on TSs here though) is something basically beyond our willful control; it becomes a basic need. Social and/or other pressure might force us to suppress it or at least doesn't allow to develope it in a "natural" way. This might lead to an accumulation of the need, and to a compulsive and obsessive behavior, or overcompensation if it finally breaks through ( similar to other basic needs that are suppressed).

[tightsgirl]

I don't put a lot of stock into religion.

[DawnRodgers]

It strikes me that "God" didn't say anything about anything. Men wrote the bible, not "God" (yeh, yeh. Divine inspiration. Well God inspired me to write this.). Anything and everything else is a myth. Perhaps so is "God". It seems to me that the only thing religion has brought is guilt, death and evil. And a way to make a living (a very good living at that) off of it.

[Kate Simmons]

It strikes me that "God" didn't say anything about anything. Men wrote the bible, not "God" (yeh, yeh. Divine inspiration. Well God inspired me to write this.). Anything and everything else is a myth. Perhaps so is "God". It seems to me that the only thing religion has brought is guilt, death and evil. And a way to make a living (a very good living at that) off of it.You are absolutely right Dawn. Organized religion is nothing more than a means of some people to control others and a business. There is the one class who supposedly has "divine inspiration and insight" and the other class who listens to what they say and does it. Easier to do that than think for yourself and make your own choices. All total bullshit in my opinion but some people can't see that and blindly follow it.:happy: Ericka Kay

[Marla S]

For me this sums up to:
Taking Deut 22:5 literally ( in the translated bibles and hence already interpreted)
Cding is a sin as well as 50 &#37; of todays women's fashion is a sin.

Taking an interpretation of the interpretation of Deut 22:5 neither the one nor the other is a sin.

The rest is faith.
Faith has no proof, faith doesn't need a proof, because that's the intention of faith.
So it's up to the individual to believe it or not.
Problem is that those who believe (or not) dare to tell others what they have to believe or not. That causes a lot of trouble and misery on earth.
Faith is individual and not collective.

[Kate Simmons]

That pretty much sums it up for me, Marla along with the fact that if I don't have faith in myself and my own abilities, I'm certainly not going to follow the faith of someone else without question. As you know being a natural scientist, everything has a process. Processes can be expalined. Even though I am somewhat "spiritual"(because of things I've seen that physics cannot yet seem to explain), I realize there has to be a "process" to that also and the mechanics (whatever they are) can still be explained somehow. I don't even blindly follow things like that and question them all the time. Wiccan people and others say that "spells" work. I ask how and they tell me they just do. Sorry, I don't buy it and know there has to be a process, I'm stubborn like that.:happy: Ericka

[Kelsy]

You either belive the Bible in total or not at all. We can not pick and choose what we want because what do you throw out or what do you keep? Don't be "decieved" niether the effeminite or the homosexual etc.will inherit the Kingdom of god! Sow to the flesh, reap of the flesh which is death. Sow to the Spirt reap of the Spirit which is life. That being said I CD ,have most of my life. Sin yes - Redemption only in Jesus Christ who payed the penalty fo our sin.

Jennifer

[Satrana]

Here is an interesting link how Deut 22:5 is discussed concerning women and pants. This gives some insight for CDing too.
http://www.actseighteen.com/articles/women-pants.htm
In short: A warrior shall not wear womens clothes (I'd say that is reasonable ;))and a woman shall not wear armor or clothes of a warrior (that's discussable, because nobody should).

That is a good article Marla although I was amused to see that the author said that under no circumstances was a woman wearing pants ever a sinner but sometimes a man wearing a skirt was.....do the double standards never end?

Anyway if you are a crossdresser then I would recommend that you continue crossdressing to make sure you go to Hell. Why? Because that's where all the women will be since they are all sinners for wearing pants. I doubt very much if any women repents her crossdressing sin before death so Heaven apparently will be full of men wearing trousers. I will choose to go to the same place my wife will be.:happy:

[Marla S]

You either belive the Bible in total or not at all.
You're right, but do you talk about the spirit of the bible, the precise words, the original language, or one of the various translations, or about the various interpretations of each translation, massage of the old or massage of the new testament, both together (how that ? they differ.) ?

It's not that easy.

[Kelsy]

Sure Marla

The perversion of Christianity is directly attributable to wrong interpertations anyone can make the Bible say what they want for various reasons - control,
power, excuses! The old Testament law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ.
but that dosen't excuse lawlessness. None will get to Heaven by doing good because we are all sinners God' price has to be paid and Jesus payed it. He said ~ no one comes to the father except through me!

[angie^]

I am sorry, there is only one commandment that comes to mind, and that is the 11th commandment, thou shalt not get caught !

angie^ xxx

[Satrana]

The old Testament law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ. Not according to the Jews. Very few converted to Christianity, it was people of other beliefs who converted, mostly under duress when Constantine made Christianity the sole religion of the Roman Empire and systematically destroyed all other faiths. It is estimated that only 2% of the population in the Roman Empire were Christians 300 years after Jesus' death.


None will get to Heaven by doing good because we are all sinners God' price has to be paid and Jesus payed it. He said ~ no one comes to the father except through me! And Jesus never said anything about crossdressing. If you believe in Jesus then follow his example. If he never discussed crossdressing then you must believe this is not an issue for your salvation.

If churches had not decided crossdressing was a sin, we would not be having this discussion now. Men decided to call crosdressing sinful, not Jesus.

[Marla S]

The perversion of Christianity is directly attributable to wrong interpertations anyone can make the Bible say what they want for various reasons - control,power, excuses!
You are right again, but what is the right interpretation and who descides it ?

... but that dosen't excuse lawlessness.
No, but if people would focus on the massage of Jesus and what he lived : Love each other, forgive each other, don't do others any harm don't care about prejudices, and be spiritual; this includes every law that is needed.
Instead we fill librarys with questions like raised by Deut 22:5 and in doubt use this "laws" as excuse to lower or even condemn others.

He said ~ no one comes to the father except through me!
Than let us live as he did and let us not care about clothes like he told us not to care (Mt 6,28)

[dancinginthedark]

Lots of very well thought out answers to be found here folks. I am glad to see everyone kept the topic lively without it becoming an attack on anyone else for their POV.

:love:

Dancin

[Raychel]

I am so unreligous!!

My wife is my goddess, and she says that I am going to hell. So I guess that whatever I do I should try to enjoy it. Because the Gods have spoken and given me my destiny.

:heehee: :heehee:

[Kate Simmons]

Lots of very well thought out answers to be found here folks. I am glad to see everyone kept the topic lively without it becoming an attack on anyone else for their POV.

:love:

DancinThat's the way we have to be Dancing. Have respect and tolerance for one another's beliefs, even if it's not how we personally feel. How we approach life and how we view others tells a lot about who we are. Diversity makes the world go around. It would be a pretty dull place if everyone thought and felt exactly the same, a pretty dull place indeed.:happy: Ericka

[Country girl]

The old Testament law was fulfilled by the coming of Christ.
but that dosen't excuse lawlessness. None will get to Heaven by doing good because we are all sinners God' price has to be paid and Jesus payed it. He said ~ no one comes to the father except through me!


Jennifer is completely right. It does say in the Bible that Jesus sayed "No one shall come to the Father except through me." and He did pay the ultimate price by being crucified on a cross so that our sins would be covered by His blood. We still have to seek Him and ask His forgiveness of our sins. We have to Believe that He did die for us so that we could have eternal life.

[Marla S]

Jennifer is completely right. It does say in the Bible that Jesus sayed "No one shall come to the Father except through me." and He did pay the ultimate price by being crucified on a cross so that our sins would be covered by His blood. We still have to seek Him and ask His forgiveness of our sins. We have to Believe that He did die for us so that we could have eternal life.
See, for me as a non religious Christian, and that is my personal and private opinion, I don't take it as he would have done the job for us, but he was willing to show that by following his spirit death becomes meaningless.
For me, the job has to be done here by me, not by him. I don't know if there is an afterlife, but it will be Hell when I die and have to realize that I have completely missed his point.

[NatalieBliss]

If I get sent to hell for wearing dresses... at least I'll look fantastic.

[Rachel Newark]

You are absolutely right Dawn. Organized religion is nothing more than a means of some people to control others and a business. There is the one class who supposedly has "divine inspiration and insight" and the other class who listens to what they say and does it. Easier to do that than think for yourself and make your own choices. All total bullshit in my opinion but some people can't see that and blindly follow it.:happy: Ericka Kay

Hear Hear!
Feel free to believe anything, but don't expect the rest of us to follow *your* rules.

Rachel Newark

PS Any Christian care to explain why your major festival is named for a pagan fertility goddess ? That's right, you stole it.

[ReneeCD]

Wasn't this same topic discussed a few weeks ago? Oh well, I'll make my comments again...

In the margin notes in my Jerusalem Bible, it says (of Deut. 22:5) that crossdressing was part of the pagan rituals associated with the Phoenecian (Caananite) worship of the god Baal. The verse was a proscription (not PREscription!) of the practice in conjunction with Baal-worship. And if you're taking thei verse literally, you better no be eating pork, shrimp, or wearing poly/cotton-blend clothing, either.

Another thing that's always bugged me. At one point in the New Testament, the Pharasees are confronting Jesus about his (to them) blasphemous habits of dining (can't remember the exact verse). Jesus responded that it was not what one put INTO themselves that caused sin. HUH? If that's true, then HE was in violation of the dietary laws outlined in the Old Testament. Jesus also stated that he came to fulfill the scriptures, not change them. Now, this could smack of double-speak: if he in fact didn't come to refute the old Law, then why did he often violate the dietary (and other) statutes? My take is that he came to fulfill the SPIRIT of the Law, not the letter of it.

Throughout the Bible, we find the same thing: God gives simple rules (Don't eat the fruit of THIS tree, the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes, etc.) for right living. Then men, who didn't like to use their own brains to interpret what God meant, had to write all these EXTRA rules to fill in the blanks. Many of the rules could have been based upon prejudices and ethnocintricity. This is the catagory in which I place Deuteronomy 22:5: an insignificant rule for a specific reason AT THE TIME which doesn't even apply to us today. Please think about it.

Renee

[Diana West]

Any Christian care to explain why your major festival is named for a pagan fertility goddess ? That's right, you stole it.

I like to think that we share it.

As for the Bible and its interpretations, one must remember that men are flawed. Therefore the translations and interpretations will be flawed. That's why there are so many "versions" of the Bible. The Bible contains contradictions and inconsistencies. There are those who have spent a lifetime trying to understand the Divine Word. We cannot have the arrogance to presume to know the Divine merely by reading a manmade book. Yes, there are those who have been Divinely inspired, as well as those who were not who contributed to the Bible. For centuries, only "learned" scholars were permitted to read the Bible and tell others what was said.
The Bible in its very essence is a book of faith, not a book of fact.

[Michelia]

It is amazing to me that this subject can generate so much discussion and concern this day and age.

Thank God (if he does exist) that I am not so worried about this as I already have way too many things to worry about.

It is comforting to know there are so many others that are not bible-thumping through life, but living true to their conscience instead.

I am a Unitarian blessed with open-minded church friends. Now if I could only bring myself to come out to my congregation...

Michelia

[Bernadina]

I still think this is all very easy.

Don't read the books. Don't listen to the "leaders".

Feel what is right inside yourself and act accordingly. If you like to crossdress, then do it. No one in heaven is going to care, especially the devine entity.

Remember:

No one eats for you;
No one sleeps for you;
So don't anyone else think for you.

[Rachaelb64]

I was born a catholic so I was a sinner from the start. At 13 or so, I decided to give up on catholism. Over the years I have sampled various religions to find a place with god.

I never did, so I gave up on religion. As for god, I decide that our pagan ancestors had the right idea, have lots of gods and chose one :happy:

God created man, man created religion.

If God is truely, loving and caring then He/She will accept me for what I am with open arms.

And if God does not want to accept me as I am, then they are a god not wroth believing in.

Because at the end of the day I am what I am, and I am finding peace with myself at last.

And this is my life's story that I will tell to the Divine Spirit when He/She finally takes me.

:2c:

[Marla S]

Don't read the books. Don't listen to the "leaders".
That would definitely avoid the question whether breast forms are men's or women's wear. ;)

[Marla]

Im sure God has a lot more to worry about in this universe than whether Im wearing satin panties or cotton underwear.

[Vicky_Scot]

The classic reference is Deuteronomy 22:5, "A woman shall not wear man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." However, farther along in the chapter are such delightful tidbits as: 22:11, "You shall not wear a material mixed of wool and linen together" and 22:12, "You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of your garment with which you cover yourself." Not to mention the classic in 22:21 in which a bride found not to be a virgin shall be stoned to death. Then there's that pesky reference in 22:30 to a "father's skirt"? So until those who are condemning crossdressing in the name of God begin wearing four tassels and single fiber garments, you can assume that they are simply using the Bible as a justification for their raw prejudice and bigotry.

[Christina Nicole]

Lots of very well thought out answers to be found here folks. I am glad to see everyone kept the topic lively without it becoming an attack on anyone else for their POV.

:love:

Dancin

Yes, nice to see consideration for other people's beliefs. Well except for calling some people's strongly held beliefs nothing more than mythology.


It strikes me that "God" didn't say anything about anything. Men wrote the bible, not "God" (yeh, yeh. Divine inspiration. Well God inspired me to write this.). Anything and everything else is a myth. Perhaps so is "God". It seems to me that the only thing religion has brought is guilt, death and evil. And a way to make a living (a very good living at that) off of it.

And being told that their faith is "total bullshit".

Organized religion is nothing more than a means of some people to control others and a business. There is the one class who supposedly has "divine inspiration and insight" and the other class who listens to what they say and does it. Easier to do that than think for yourself and make your own choices. All total bullshit in my opinion but some people can't see that and blindly follow it.

Then, after calling religion, all religion "total bullshit," this is termed acceptance and respect. If this is tolerance and respect, it's a wonder that more cross dressers, for example, don't get beaten up when they go out. It's just how some people show acceptance, I guess. Thank God, that most bigots are honest about their bigotry.

That's the way we have to be Dancing. Have respect and tolerance for one another's beliefs, even if it's not how we personally feel.

I have often seen and heard that anti-Christianity is the last remaining prejudice that is socially acceptable. Apparently true.

Regards,
Christina Nicole

[MarinaTwelve200]

Yes, nice to see consideration for other people's beliefs. Well except for calling some people's strongly held beliefs nothing more than mythology.


And being told that their faith is "total bullshit".


Then, after calling religion, all religion "total bullshit," this is termed acceptance and respect. If this is tolerance and respect, it's a wonder that more cross dressers, for example, don't get beaten up when they go out. It's just how some people show acceptance, I guess. Thank God, that most bigots are honest about their bigotry.


I have often seen and heard that anti-Christianity is the last remaining prejudice that is socially acceptable. Apparently true.

Regards,
Christina Nicole

I observe that most "anti-Christian" (or any religion) types fall into 3 categories, (1)They lack any religious background or education, (2)They were rased in a radical , "screwball" sect before escaping it and thinking all christians are like that , (3)and the third group simply do not wish to be have to exercise the self dicipline necessary to lead a "moral" or principle based life.

In summary , they either do not know what they are talking about --out of ignorance or a bad experience, or they are looking for a way to avoid living under rules or self dicipline.

[Maggie Kay]

I have a different perspective on the Christian ethic. I used to be a zealot. I was so against gays and all practices held as sin by the fundamentalist Christian church that I really had hatred in my heart. It was instilled in me that these "sinning" groups of people were evil and that they planned to destroy the Church as an institution. My hatred and anger peaked when Clinton was elected and his first act was the gays in the military affair. Well, interestingly, my CD/TG issues that surfaced after that time have taught me that it is not a sin. All my hundreds of prayers over the years to give me the strength to stop were ignored while others were answered. I have no other choice but to believe that God does not hold these issues in the same light as the church does. The church leaders are becoming viewed as the negative element in our society now. Why? Because they earned it. They do real harm. I know. My heart has changed and I am completely free of my past feelings. What a relief and I have CD/TG to thank for it. In His way, God used it to free me from my hatred.

[janedoe311]

It was officially heresy. But is was crossdressing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc

After her execution she had a retrial and was found innocent.

Her Christians killed her.

[Lanore]

I know God loves me and I love him. I like to think that no matter what I'm wearing, God can use me anywhere he pleases. If I'm concerned about what I have on when I go out and will anyone see me, well, God sees me. If he calls me to be in a certain place at a certain time, I don't have to take make-up off or undress. He can use me anytime because I don't hide who I am. I'm the same when I wake up and the same when I go to bed. One other thing, I love the Bible, it's Gods word.

Lanore

[Satrana]

Going back to Duet 22:5 for a moment. I read that this edict was necessary because Jewish ceremonies were often segregated. The two genders had their own and it was considered an abomination to attend the wrong ceremony. Jewish history records efforts of people who disguised themselves as members of the opposite sex in order to attend the wrong ceremonies - in particular, women would wear men's armour since the male ceremonies were the important ones.

So Duet 22:5 is referring to ordinary people disguising themselves as the opposite gender in order to attend a religious ceremony. This has nothing to do with crossdressing as self-expression.

[Cami_wi]

How do you think transsexuality fits into religion? How do you deal with the conflicts?



You have asked quite a question, in asking me how I relate religiously to transsexuality. I will answer, though.

I personally have no conflict, nor do I see a conflict, whatsoever, between religion and being transsexual.

I do see conflict between human bigotry, and transsexuality, though....deadly conflict.

Islam, Judaism and Christianity all share the same basic roots, and even much of the same texts, and all three have passages regarding how 'male and female' are together in the soul, and much else besides. They also seem to share passages condemning homosexuality and crossdressing, but none of the big three can address transsexuality, because they cannot even recognise that it exists.

I really do not care, to tell you the truth. 2000+ years is a long time, and the bottom line is that real is real.

It is real that gravity exists, and will kill a person who falls from a great height, no matter what they believe. It is true that the earth circles the sun and that the moon orbits the earth as a planet, whether or not the Catholic Pope pardons Galileo or not. And babies are born with physical and neurological defects and mutations all the time, just as they always have, for all time.

One such mutation, or 'defect', or whatever one wishes to label it, is the biochemical events that occur in a fetus that lead to homosexuality, or in the extreme form, transsexuality. It happens in animals, including the animal known as mankind.

This is reality seen unflinchingly. Some babies are born with obvious physical sex differences, they are called 'intersex' babies, and are often altered to fit one sex or another. When they grow up, if the doctors guessed wrong, they get really upset, and they seek to have the problem corrected. This is reasonable: there is a sex for the body, and a separate sex for the brain. Sometimes the two do not match in some, or all degrees. Snipping the body does not change the brain. Snipping the body can only change the garment the brain, the mind, the soul wears. Hopefully to a proper fit.

The problem with religion today is that it is built on really, really ancient books written by ordinary men ('inspired' or not, they were still just men) who only knew what was known in the time they lived in. They knew nothing of the nature of the universe but what they could see in a desert sky, and the intricate and amazing clockwork of life was to them only a sticky mess that would gush out of a butchered animal, or slain man. Mysteries and gore.

Now we can identify, and deliberately create, animals who lack heads, or limbs, or other such genetic and developmental errors at will, and of course many neurochemical alterations as well, among them transsexuality and homosexuality.

Transsexuality is real. It is part of nature, it is a biological event as clear as the living cells of the cornea of the eye, or the hydrochloric acid inside a stomach.

Those who preach any given religion may have great issues with all sorts of things. The Catholics killed and imprisoned people for daring to suggest that the moon was an imperfect cratered body instead of a perfect pearl, and I do not think I need to draw similar comparisons in the behaviors of the fervent believers of Islam, Judaism, or any other major religion. Observing reality can make some religious people nervous, if what is actual conflicts with what is traditional.

When religion tries to make any statement or law, about something it cannot possibly address, to which the texts of the religion are blatantly, clearly, utterly out of date, knowledge, or possibility of understanding, and when people try to enforce such ancient ignorance blindly, for no other reason than it is old, I consider that one of the greatest true evils mankind can commit.

It is the evil that leads to slaughter, and torture, and misery, all for the sake of a wisdom half understood from an ancient age that had no understanding whatsoever.

If this is what any god wants, then I stand against that sort of god, utterly. I do not care how scary a god is, a tyranny of ignorance cannot be tolerated.

But I do not think that any god would want such a thing. We humans do it to ourselves, clinging to moldering books, out of date, and out of time.

We are the product of reality. If reality is the work of any god, then all the things in reality are the creation of god.

If this is true, then transsexuality, being a real thing, a natural thing, as is homosexuality as well, is the creation of god just as surely as the moon, gravity, or babies born without legs.

A person cannot just grow new legs by wishing, and a transsexual or homosexual cannot reconstruct the neural cells of their amygdala and hippocampus just by wishing either. Just because something is hidden inside the skull, where we cannot see it, does not make it less real. Real is real. And where reality intrudes, religion, must bow.

So, either god is an evil tyrant beyond vileness, or the things of nature have some purpose. We cannot be other than what we are, and to ask the legless to dance or be damned forever is despicable.

Transsexuality is a matter of birth. No amount of religious intolerance can cure it. But hormones and surgery, real things, can. And in this 'cure' comes some measure of happiness and productivity in life, which means everyone benefits.

If this is ungodly, if happiness and productivity and sparing people from agony and misery is ungodly, then I am forever the enemy of god.

Surely god is not that evil.

So therefore, any religious passage condemning anyone for how they are born, must be in error. It must be ignored.

This still will not save you from being stoned or burned or stabbed or shot to death in certain countries, however. Including the United States, where I live.

So my long winded argument boils down to this:

Either being transsexual, and having the condition treated with hormones and surgery is a godly thing, or god is an evil tyrant that should be opposed utterly for the sake of all living things.

I prefer to believe that if there are any god or gods, that they are not monsters. I could be wrong, and god could be a psychopathic tyrant, but I would rather not see things that way.

So, with regard to religion, transsexuality should be all right, and any religion that clings to hate in the light of real understanding, must be modified or ignored altogether. Take your pick.

I say mindless hate cannot be tolerated, nor misery permitted based on books and scrolls 2000 years past their Freshness Expiration Date. I have had my fill of a history of Inquisitions, Jihads, and general genocide.

If there is a god, then I think being Queer is just fine in Her book.

[sissystephanie]

I have been told by a Theologian that the reference to crossdressing in Deutr. 22.5 is to prohibit men from going to the women's section of the Temple, and vice versa. In Old Jewish Tamples, and maybe even today, the women were restricted to the balcony and the men were on the main floor. They could not mix!

I personally don't think God cares what you wear. What counts is what kind of a person you are. I don't think God is a Fashion designer!

Sissy

More Girl than man

[DawnRodgers]

I have often seen and heard that anti-Christianity is the last remaining prejudice that is socially acceptable. Apparently true.

Regards,
Christina Nicole

Always nice t hear from somebody that has an open mind and can respond with reason and sense.
Dawn

[Penny]

You either belive the Bible in total or not at all. We can not pick and choose what we want because what do you throw out or what do you keep? Don't be "decieved" niether the effeminite or the homosexual etc.will inherit the Kingdom of god! Sow to the flesh, reap of the flesh which is death. Sow to the Spirt reap of the Spirit which is life. That being said I CD ,have most of my life. Sin yes - Redemption only in Jesus Christ who payed the penalty fo our sin.

Jennifer

Don't tell me what the bible says; the bible was written by less than perfect men (sinners) who were inspired. I can't believe them entirely but I might believe you if you told me what God said to you! What did God tell you?

:hugs:

Penny

[Penny]

Here is the only passage of scripture in the Bible that I know of (New International Version)If you choose to live by the law, then you best live by the entire law. If you violate any provision then you are guilty of violating all of it. Me? I'd much rather follow a different scriptural passage... Christians have a personal relationship with God. If you're in doubt, ask Him! I have no problem reconciling my cross dressing with my Christian life. God and I have had lengthy discussions over the issue (aka prayer). He's not stressing over it. I'm not going to either.

Religious Discussion Group Moderator

I agree with you Holly, christians do have a personal relationship with God.
But just because you can quote the Bible and go to church on Sunday, doesn't necessarily difine you as christian; it mearly identifies you as part of the christian movement.

:hugs:

Penny