Dummies guide to divorce?

[fionasboots]

I've asked this question on the Roses Forum in the UK but I thought I'd post it here as well to see what you all think. I understand that any answers here from non-UK people are possibly not going to apply as much but any advice is still appreciated.

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Okay, just to clarify at the outset that I am not, as yet anyway, getting divorced.

However it was a very real possibility when I first came out to my wife this year about the crossdressing and it's something she's threatened (though not too seriously before this came out) before.

So why am I asking. Well I found (a month or so ago) photocopies of bills, bank statements, etc. This scared me a bit but since things were going okay I didn't mention it at all.

We just had a rather stressful weekend with my wife's parents who appeared outwardly fine but I'm told they are still very upset and overall Christmas has been a little strained with this and the fact that we're all at home together, etc, etc.

Anyway, this could explain why my wife commented at 5 o'clock this morning that she couldn't be bothered with Christmas or New Year or anything and we should just get divorced. Probably this was fatigue catching up (our son is quite demanding at the moment, he's 3 and full of beans - which is good - but has been waking up in the night alot and just tiring my wife out).

So it seems that divorce is still a threat and may even end up a reality and I know absolutely nothing about what could happen and need to 'even' things up a bit so I can at least talk to my wife about what this could really mean.

Questions:

1) Does divorce often consist of assigning blame? Does one partner have to be the reason why the marriage must end? And if this is established is it prejudicial to how things move forward, e.g. your fault you lose out?

2) I've heard that everything that you own jointly is generally divided up using some ratio, I assume 50%, e.g. the house is sold and any profit shared out. Is it 50%, my wife said something about 60%!

3) What about wages/bonuses/etc? Is this something that automatically gets split or worked out in court or individually? Can a wife claim a large amount of a husbands salary (I presume this would at least require fault to be established).

4) What happens with children? Who gets custody and what rights does the other partner have? Would crossdressing be an argument to deny custody or access?

I appreciate that any advice here is just from personal experience and doesn't constitute legal advice. I would also emphasise that I'm hoping that I don't need to go down this route ... however, and this is the final question; what are peoples general experiences/thoughts about divorce in these sorts of situation?

A friend of mine (whose parents divorced when she was little) suggested that it may be best (in some cases) for everyone in particular the children involved; she said she felt better once her parents were separated. I've certainly heard the same argument before but equally I wonder if it can be better to stay together.
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[Kate Simmons]

Hi Fiona, I can only speak for where I live. In Pennsylvania, divorce is no fault. All assets get split 50/50. As far as wages, you may have to support your wife , depending on if she works or not and what both incomes are. If retired, she can get a chunk of the pension check every month as so deemed by the judge. I think the rights in connection with the children is a separate issue and worked out individually. Although my wife no longer lives with me due to the CDing, we have not legally separated or filed for divorce, so she is still supported by me and my pension since I recently retired. I'm in no hurry to change that situation at this time due to the fact that I'm doing an experiment to see if I really want to live as Ericka full time. After that is over, I may or may not decide to seek some kind of settlement with her depending on the outcome of my experiment. Hope this info gives you some kind of idea what to expect. It may be different where you live, you'll have to consult an attorney.:happy: Ericka

[veronicagirl]

Go see an attorney as soon as possible. Every area has it's own laws. My ex couldn't get anything because in Michigan you have to be married for 10 years until she can latch onto your wages, savings or pension.

[Emma_Forbes]

Hi Fiona,

I'm still separated after 7 years rather than divorced, due to my ex's inability to follow words with actions. When we separated, she got 60% of the cash redemption of the house, all the car, 2/3 of the children, and virtually all our belongings. She has grounds for divorce - my unreasonable behaviour (crossdressing). In my opinion, it doesn't matter how reasonable your behaviour is, your partner will always be able to find behaviour that isn't reasonable and unfortunately lawyers are too good at finding fault. You can fight fire with fire but in my case I felt that claiming unreasonable behaviour would have been a falsehood that I wasn't comfortable with (I still loved her - more fool me).

As far as access to the children, that has never been an issue. However, had I been as open with my kids when we split as I am now (they know but haven't met Emma) I am certain it would have been different. Indeed, I don't think she knows that I still dress or the extent to which I do - if she did there would be consequences I am sure.

Anyway, I hope some of that helps and above all I hope it doesn't come to that.

Em

[Sheila]

fiona,
sorry hun to hear that things are not so good for you right now, I am hoping that it is just the xmas doldrums that your wife is having right now and that you will soon be back on track.

If it would be of any help feel free to give your wife my email address if she wants a chat.

Jess

[Calliope]

I would say once a couple speaks frequently of divorce, it's an inevitability.

I believe you should consult with an attorney and know what to expect.

[Lanore]

I'm with DayTripper on this one. As one of the girls said last week, when the cats out of the bag, it's hard to put her back in. When one talks divorce, it's going to be hard to get it out of the mind. Also take Veronicagirls advice.

Lanore

[suezeq]

wheni was devorced she done me on unreasonable behaviour she did not know about my cding the house was split 50/50 when allbills paid. 50/50 on car kids were 17,19 she moved out i kept the house and car if you have a works pension do not bring this unless she does or her law firm as mine signed away any rights to my pensions which are worth more than she settled for

[kittypw GG]

, etc.

Anyway, this could explain why my wife commented at 5 o'clock this morning that she couldn't be bothered with Christmas or New Year or anything and we should just get divorced. Probably this was fatigue catching up (our son is quite demanding at the moment, he's 3 and full of beans - which is good - but has been waking up in the night alot and just tiring my wife out).

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Fiona,
Divorce is expensive and is not a winning situation overall no matter what country you live in. The fact that you said that your 3 year old is waking your wife up and tiring HER out makes me wonder. Why aren't you offering to get up with the child? Do you have higher expectations of your wife than you do for yourself? Maybe what your wife needs is a partner right now and maybe you should make her and your relationship a priority. It is upsetting that you would be wanting to cover your own back instead of asking for advice on how to save your marriage before it is too late. Maybe you want the divorce instead of her?

I can tell you from expirence Fiona that a relationship ends in divorce when it is starving. If you don't want to divorce then try to reach back into your memory and do those things that got your wife to say yes when you asked her to be your bride. Swallow your pride a little and tell her what she means to you. You might just start something good.
:love: Kitty

[fionasboots]

Just a quick reply to say thanks for all the answers so far.

Just to clarify again: we are not heading for divorce as far as I am concerned, the comments my wife made are due to tiredness and frustration and stress etc.

But as DayTripper says it *can* be inevitable so best be prepared.

I don't think it's inevitable and I agree with Vicky that it really is the last option and to be avoided if at all possible.

I would also agree with Erika's approach - seperated but still supporting wife/partner. And I'm sure there are lots of other alternatives like that, I suppose the situation now is similar; I only CD while away from home so I have a seperate life in some respects.

Anyway, like I say, I'm just trying to get information so that I know more about either what could happen or more hopefully what we should avoid.

And I would agree with Kitty to a point; it's better to try and save a marriage and yes, I am wanting to do that as well and have already sought advice here and on other forums about that. And we are talking so I hope I don't need any advice on divorce, but life isn't like films, it's real and nasty things happen - so best be prepared and know what really can happen!

[Bobbie Jo]

Fiona,
Sorry to hear that your going through hell rite now.I've been separated for
7mos now,this is my 2nd marriage and it seems just like the first one,or any of my broken relationships with all of the women that i've been with.They don't do no wrong,all your fault everytime.They can't discuss their problems,they hold it inside until their ready to blow,and the next thing out of their mouth is the word "DIVORSE". They just can't cope with real life.They think everything is going to go perfect all the time.Well that aint life...Comunication is the only thing that holds relationships together.If you don't have that, then,get the hell out.Because your not going to be able to change that hard headed woman.And if her family is in the middle of it you may as well hang it up."Been there done that" twice...
As for the child,they usually go with the mother,unless you can prove her unfit,and that's pretty hard to do.She also has to prove that your a crossdresser.How many people know about you?I was going to try to get custody of my 10yr old son and my13yr old daughter and my wife was the only one that knew about my dressing, so i gathered up all my fem stuff and i do mean everything,and went to extremes and threw it all(crying now)in the garbage.Wished i'd never done that because i moved out.
You really need to go get you a lawyer before she does and file first.Have the papers served on her first,that will make her head spin.
Just trying to help.Divorses are real messy. Sounds like she'll screw the dress rite of you, if you don't get her first. I'm sorry but that is the way it is..for real.
Sorry hun,i didn't mean to scare you,i just hate to see a guy get screwed ,like i've been."TWICE"..............

Sorry i had to be so rough,but i could write a book on my life,and my women caused me to go crazy and broke too.............
Just hopeing ya'll can work things out or at least get along....
Wishing you good luck,
Hugs and kisses girl,

Bobbie Jo:sad:
The new girl in town,
but not that new...............Lord,please help this girl..Amen..

[Amanda Jane]

The girls are right / divorce should be your last option / Daytripper is right too / a woman would only bring it up when its the last option / get a lawyer / it sounds like she already has

[Amy Hepker]

Fiona, I am sory for your problems. The best thing I can tell you is try to work things out with her. She may still want a divorse. In my situation it was different. My wife (xwife now) was into drugs (Crystal Meth) I went to court without a Lawyer (unless you know what your doing or can't afford it don't do it) and won sole custody of both my childern and I get childsupport from her. Basically here you end up with what ever you have in your posession. If there are cars they are split between the 2 of you. If you have more that one car yourself get the other one in someone elses name until after the divorse. Take as much with you when you leave or get kicked out. You may not get anything if you don't have it already. If you are headed tword divorse get as much of your stuff out as you can before you leave or well before hand. If you have a pension she can get some of that, the court will decide. In Iowa Crossdressing is NOT grounds for divorse. You have to be proven a bad person or Father not a bad crossdresser. Laws are really strange and differ from state to state. Try to stay with the spouse, but if things get worse get your stuff out.

[JudyC]

Fiona,
Divorce is a nasty business even if you are both on speaking terms! My divorce was exceptionally nasty. It is the after effects of divorce which are the worst especially if children are involved.

In my case I haven't seen my children in over 3 yrs (unless you want to count the 1 hr visit I ahd with my daughter, in a resturant with my ex sitting two tables away).

My Divorce is a long story, would take to much time to explain everythign here; just say that the effects of it last a very long time and are very painful for everyone.

Judy

[Kerry Owens]

Try for reconciliation first...it's in the long run; cheaper and healthier for the children. Try to help her on that not getting enough sleep, start volunteering time to settle that 3 year old back to sleep.
If nothing works, seperation for about a year is next...and yes, you do need to see a lawyer. The best you can hope for is a fairly peaceful divorce, avoid threats, and keep it calm. Be aware with the child she's likely going to retain custody, and that it's expensive to be a working mom...and have babysitters/childcare. She will need help with that cost, so be merciful on the monetary part of the divorce. Better you offer to help than having everything hung out to dry so to speak.
Good luck...I hope you can work it out with her and evade the disaster of a divorce.

[MJ]

i am sorry to hear that, first you should open your own bank account just in case she takes all your money when she asks you to leave get a visa card in your own name just in case you need first and last rent for a apartment you don't want to be out on the street with no money and no were to go

but i think you should try to talk things out with her.. keep on talking never give up you have little one there and he needs you. do whatever it takes to say together were possible ..

i do hope all work's out well for you and your's

[Stephenie S]

Dear Fiona,

Always nice to see you on the forum.

Divorce is nasty. All above have said this already. If you are truly heading for divorce (or if it is even a possiblity in the future) you should be starting to hide some assets. Private bank accounts or investments, perhaps with a trusted friend or with your parents, can literally save your ass when an angry spouse and a tricky lawyer try to get everything they can from you.

Remember, don't try and be "Mr nice guy" even if you know it's the right thing to do. Your wife may be the nicest person in town, but her lawyer won't be and believe me, they will pick you clean unless you take some steps to protect yourself.

Make them prove EVERYTHING! Don't agree to ANYTHING!

A fair divorce usually splits the marital assets 50/50. House usually goes to the wife as she needs a place to care for your son. She will almost certainly get custody of him unless you can prove she is unfit (very unlikely). If you both want joint custody and can work out a reasonable agreement, the court will almost always go along with it. You will be responsible for supporting your son. You will also be responsible for supporting your wife for a reasonable amount of time. Once your son is old enough to not need constant care, you may be able to go back to court and request a reduction in HER support. If she remarries, then you will no longer have to support her. You will alway have to support your child however. The court may decide to order you BOTH be responsible for your child's support. This will depend on how good your lawyer is. Get a good one. The absolute best way to handle this is to agree on everything beforehand with your wife and go to court completely in agreement. This will not happen as soon as you get lawyers involved as the more disagreement there is, the more money they make. They have absolutely NO interest in any agreement at all.

OK, so much for the talk of divorce.

I too was struck by what Kitty noticed. Why is your three year old exhausting your wife??? Why aren't YOU getting up in the night. That's right. YOU. You should be the one to deal with him in the night. You not only have the obligation, you also have the RIGHT to develope a relationship with your son. If you want him to look to you for guidance in the future you need to take care of him now. Your wife takes care of him all day (already an exhausting task). You can take over at night. As someone said already, if you want to remain married, you need to remind her of why she said yes in the first place. Fiona, this talk of divorce may just be a way of getting your attention. Sort of like hitting you over the head with a 2x4, so to speak. You already KNOW she is upset with you over the CDing. Maybe all she needs is to understand that she is really the most important thing in your life right now.

Decide how important she really is, dear. And then go for it. If you are headed for transition, it's unlikely you will be able to stay married. If you can KNOW that you will always be satisfied with a bit of crossdressing on the side, then your marriage can almost certainly be saved. You just need to come to some sort of understanding. A few "ground rules".

Divorce, as I said before, is nasty. Nasty for both of you. And if you can avoid it (especially as you have a young child) you will both be happier.

That's my HO.

Lovies,
Stephenie

[Sharon]

Just playing devil's advocate here, but my wife mentioned divorce a few times when we were having difficulties. However, through much talk, soul-bearing, and our underlying love, friendship, and respect of one another, we managed to keep the marriage intact and we were both the better for it as it grew into a wonderful one.

Sometimes divorce is unavoidable, and even the better of options, but if you truly care for your wife, you will make every effort to reconcile with her.

Good luck! :happy:

[kittypw GG]

Fiona,
Sorry to hear that your going through hell rite now.I've been separated for
7mos now,this is my 2nd marriage and it seems just like the first one,or any of my broken relationships with all of the women that i've been with.They don't do no wrong,all your fault everytime.They can't discuss their problems,they hold it inside until their ready to blow,and the next thing out of their mouth is the word "DIVORSE". They just can't cope with real life.They think everything is going to go perfect all the time.Well that aint life...Comunication is the only thing that holds relationships together.If you don't have that, then,get the hell out.Because your not going to be able to change that hard headed woman.And if her family is in the middle of it you may as well hang it up."Been there done that" twice...
As for the child,they usually go with the mother,unless you can prove her unfit,and that's pretty hard to do.She also has to prove that your a crossdresser.How many people know about you?I was going to try to get custody of my 10yr old son and my13yr old daughter and my wife was the only one that knew about my dressing, so i gathered up all my fem stuff and i do mean everything,and went to extremes and threw it all(crying now)in the garbage.Wished i'd never done that because i moved out.
You really need to go get you a lawyer before she does and file first.Have the papers served on her first,that will make her head spin.
Just trying to help.Divorses are real messy. Sounds like she'll screw the dress rite of you, if you don't get her first. I'm sorry but that is the way it is..for real.
Sorry hun,i didn't mean to scare you,i just hate to see a guy get screwed ,like i've been."TWICE"..............

Sorry i had to be so rough,but i could write a book on my life,and my women caused me to go crazy and broke too.............
Just hopeing ya'll can work things out or at least get along....
Wishing you good luck,
Hugs and kisses girl,

Bobbie Jo:sad:
The new girl in town,
but not that new...............Lord,please help this girl..Amen..

Bobby joe,
Hun I'm so sorry that you are in so much pain about your two failed marriages. Not all women are the same though so please don't give us all a bad name. I have read and expirenced some seriously selfish and strange things that CD'S think and do but I don't lump all CD's into the weirdo, crazy category. That would just not be fair.

Might I suggest you break your pattern of attraction. I myself seem to always pick men that are sort of dramatic, like my mon. I had a therapist tell me that sometimes we keep getting involved with the same type of person first of all because it is comfortable and secondly because we think that we can finally get the relationship right. But the sad part is that it usually doesn't work out. I don't know if this is true for you but maybe you might want to look at your two ex's and see if there is a pattern then avoid it.

I hope you find love in the new year. :love: Kitty

[marie354]

When my first wife and I split up (Over my CDing), I was sooo dissapointed that I volenteerily gave her everything except my car, clothes, and computers & tools. She got a $300 Lawer, mine cost me $1200.
It all came out alright, setteled out of court, setup a trust fund for my son, and had liberal visitation rights.
But you do need some sort of legal representation to help hash everything out.
Good luck to you, and I hope that it works out for both of you and you settle your differances with some compremise and stay together.
:hugs:

[occdresser]

I dont have a whole lot to say except that divorce is easy and a marriage takes lots of work. Also take into account that most children in a divorce end up living in poverty the rest of their lives!:mad: :sad:

[Robin Leigh]

It's good to hear from you again, Fiona. :hugs:

Let's hope that she was only expressing her tiredness & frustration, although the photocopied bills are a bit of a worry. I know you're often away on business trips. Have you had much time together lately?

I take it that your wife's attitude to CDing hasn't improved much in the last few months. Has she had a chance to discuss it with another GG yet (apart from her mother)? Is she able to talk to you about it? Maybe she thinks if she ignores it, it will all go away, like a bad dream... Not likely!

:hugs:

Robin

[Bobbie Jo]

Fiona? Bobbie Jo here,
It was probably the very second that i sent that post that i realized i was wrong.Please,Please,Please forgive me. I know that all women aren't that way.I was just speaking from my experience. I didn't mean to drop that ton of bricks from my shoulders to yours.
And for what Kitty said, I HAD THAT COMING. I even expected it.( after the fact) Again,Please forgive me, and that go's for Kitty too.I know i had that coming Kitty. Please frogive me.:sad: And that goes for all you girls,Please. I'm very,very sorry. I've just been so hurt...
I really hope everything turns out for the best.

Love,hugs and kisses,
the real new girl in town,
Bobbie Jo

P.S. i think i need to go see a shrink........................

[kittypw GG]

Bobbie jo,
It's ok girl, forgive yourself and cut yourself some slack. I am no stranger to personal pain and sometimes it just comes bubbling up like old faithfull. I really do mean that I hope you find love in the new year. :love: Kitty

[michelleliz]

I have been there 3 times . I would make sure You have money to live on In case every thing go's bad. I was left with on money and no place to live . The court in Indiana ,My area any way Gives all that they ask fore most of the time. You need to protect what you have and save money that no one nows about.

Michelle Liz

[Jodi]

Every State in the US has different laws on divorces. I'm sure that England has specific laws. Having gone through a divorce 6 years ago after a long time marriage, I believe that I can speak with some authority.

The first thing is to get advice from a good lawyer that you trust--one who is familiar with divorce law. On what happens, I can only speak for Pennsylvania law. To differ with what Ericka said earlier, division of property in Pennsylvania is not 50/50. Pennsylvania law specifically states that "there will be an equitable distribution of property". Generally, this falls into the 50/50 category. In PA, the divorce is no-fault. The problems begin with property settlement. The property will be settled as to agreement by both parties. If a property settlement is not reached in a reasonable time--generally two years, either party may petition the court for a settlement. My lawyer advised me to work toward a settlement as he would never recommend that anyone go before a court. He said that you never know how a court settlement will go.

In Pennsylvania, all property owned by the husband and wife are considered marital property, regardless of how the property is titled; therefore all assets are considered.

Remember, there is no such thing as an amicable divorce. Once the lawyers get involved, things can get nasty.

So, you found her making copies of bank statements, financial records, etc. You start doing the same thing on her records. Be ready and prepared. Don't wait until a divorce is filed.

This can be a very stressful time. you must remain objective at all costs. You can't allow yourself to become emotional at any time. I have a good army buddy who has gone through two divorces. His advice to me on being objective was as follows: "Remember what it was like to call in artillery or an airstrike on a village. You can't be emotional. You can't think about how many people you are killing. You just have to call it in and kill them". I always kept that in mind. He was right. That is how I faced my divorce. Yes, I took a financial hit, but I came out of it standing on my feet.

Be prepared for the worst scenerio, get a good lawyer, and good luck.

Jodi

[Robin Leigh]

My ex got real nasty and wrongly accused me of interferring with him because I was Gay and sick.
If it's any consolation, Anthea, that trick gets used a lot. A mate of mine was accused of molesting his young daughters, but fortunately the court didn't believe it & he still has unsupervised access to them. The painful irony is that he has very good reason to believe that his wife's new husband regularly molested a step-daughter in a previous relationship, but the now adult step-daughter is unwilling to testify before a court. :(

It's very painful when people we once loved do nasty things to us, but at least it helps us to let go...

:hugs:

Robin

[Marcie Sexton]

I am really distressed that your wife is so dead set against your dressing...I still suggest that some heartfelt talks to attempt to patch things up...BUT I also suggest you get the life boat ready...

I know nothing about English law, but I can tell you a lot about my experiences...

When my first marriage went down the tubes< long before I even allowed myself to dress, too>, I was approached by EX and told she was sleeping with another man, that I divorce her or she'd divorce me...HA what a joke...

1 Find a good laywer who if possible specializes in divorces...

2 Make sure your child is the first and most important subject...stress you have no problems and want to see to your childs care...< I paid faithfully for 12 years until the state started returning my support payments and I seen him ZERO times the last 12 years, before he turned 18, after she moved, a promise she kept >

3 Get some resources together in a safe place, where I live everything gained during the life of the marriage is assets to be divided< YEA RIGHT >...

4 Keep good records and copies of your check stubs...

Now granted my divorce was 20 + years ago and some laws have changed. I was constantly in court for numerous reasons, she had a head ach, she had a pimple on her butt:rolleyes: , so prepare your self...

If and I assume you do love and care about your child demand specified visitation right, dumb ass me went for reasonable & seasonable, boy did I learn a lot...One minute late or a dop of rain and she had the right to say NO, and she was allowed to move to where ever she wanted...and so I drove to pick him up where she lived...Lexington, Knoxville, and finally Alexandria, La.

That broke the camels back...This all may seem extreme, but be ready...squirrel away some $$$ I suggest enough for 3 months...and expect some really nasty things to be thrown your way...no matter how much you love your wife, get your ammo and be ready to shoot back...< Not all our members will agree, but unless you're the target you have no idea what its like >Document, document, document...pictures, notes, letters what ever you can get your hands on...bug your own telephone, not admissible in court, but could provide leverage...the little quote, "ALLS FAIR IN LOVE & WAR", well truer words were never spoken...

I would never wish divorce on my worse enemy, but it is a fact of life. Now as I look back at that dark day in my life, I consider it a bump in my road of life...I have been blessed by a wonderful wife, a son who thinks I walk on water. hang in there give it a try, use all/everything you can to make it work, then should things go south, you will know in your heart that you tried...Most of all look after your child, that in and of itself is a blessing.

GOOD LUCK

[fionasboots]

Appologies for the quick reply again, must get some time to read/reply properly.

Just to address something that Kitty and Stephenie picked up on; my wife getting tired out by my son.

It would probably have been more accurate to say that he's tiring us both out as he's very active, inquititive, energetic, and generally full of beans - which is good.

While I certainly don't spend as much time with my son as my wife does but I do spend time with him in the evening and get up in the night (mainly since he calls out of "daddy" as well and usually only resorts to "mummy" if he doesn't get what he wants ;-) )

Yes, I agree with the people who suggest that the whole divorce thing is just for attention and/or just a way of letting off steam.

For those of you suggesting hiding money or watching that sort of thing, well, we haven't got a huge amount of money anyway so not much of a problem there! In fact my wife now has more disposable income than me!

Yes, my wife did (from what she's said) seak some sort of advice on divorce - this was when I initially came out and her mother was up with her. To the best of my knowledge she has not sought official advice since.

Thinking about it yes, I could go and get official advice but I personally don't think things are *that* serious, which is why I suppose I'm taking the less awkward approach of just asking here instead.

I hope we don't go down that route and on balance it doesn't look like we will, but I had to ask, just in case.

[Amanda Jane]

Men tend to use the 'D' word as a bravado, a threat / when women use it, they have already thought it through and arrived at that as the prefered outcome