Questions about genderblindness

[Casey Morgan]

This one is open to everybody. I was talking with my therapist about something a while back and I'd really like to hear everyone's opinion on this.

I'm genderblind, or gender myopic if you prefer. I can see extremes of gender but I have a difficult if not impossible time of seeing gender otherwise. I'm probably not even going to think to question whether a transwoman is a woman unless she does something like shoot deer with an AK-47 out the window of her monster truck. I can't even think of a good example for a transman. (Seriously, if anybody can come up with one I'd appreciate it.)

You know how women are supposed to be one way and men are supposed to be another way? I have a real hard time seeing that. To me it's not about how men are or how women are but how YOU are. People ask me if I have a gender preference when it comes to people like doctors, therapists, and teachers as though it's supposed to matter, like I would have a preference. I honestly don't.

See, when you talk about "man" and "woman" you're talking about general concepts. But when I'm dealing with a teacher or a doctor or a therapist I'm dealing with a person, not a concept. How does it help me if men or women are more likely to have a particular trait if the person I'm dealing with doen't have that trait? So any time I try to figure out which gender makes a better whatever I keep coming back to "it's not the person's gender, it's just how that person is, for good or bad".

I've had people tell me it's cool that I can see people that way. I was floored when my therapist said it in a way that sounded like it's not all that common. To me, that's just how things are. Honestly, in a way it feels like I'm being naïve or very dense. But I don't plan to be any different.

I realize it sounds like I'm contradicting myself here. If you tell me you're a man or a woman or somewhere inbetween and I take you at face value, aren't I seeing gender by seeing you as acting stereotypically as that, or at least in line with that? Not really. It's kind of hard to explain but it's really more that I don't see you acting so obviously different than what you tell me you are, simply because there are so many ways to be a man/woman/inbetween. So I just take your word for it and go from there.

So just how much in the minority am I, if at all? Can you see gender easily or at all? Does gender matter to you, and do you think gender should matter to you?

[Amanda Jane]

i would think that many people in here are hyper-gender aware, not gender blind

[carla smith]

how much in the minority am I,?

I am not sure that you are in the minority. It would be a judgement call that I can not make. I think that this is what is called "politically correct" today and what is being taught in most schools.

Can you see gender easily?

Easily....no. But I can usually see what gender a person is presenting themselves to be. Facial hair...male.....breasts....female...

Does gender matter to you?

Sometimes. I want to relate to people in an appropritate maner...not to be offensive.

do you think gender should matter to you?

Sometimes. When it is important to the identity of the person.

[CaptLex]

So just how much in the minority am I, if at all? Can you see gender easily or at all? Does gender matter to you, and do you think gender should matter to you?
I think I can relate to that, Shari Ann, and I also think we probably are in the minority. I see a person first and whatever else they may be much later - whether we're talking about race, color, religion, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, gender or gender identity. Which is probably why I don't like generalizations. Men are supposed to be one way and women another - but we, of all people, should know that's not always the case. Not a good idea to stick somebody in a box and lock them up in there. Which is probably why I'm always breaking out of boxes or refusing to go in them in the first place. I don't know if it's gender myopia or just part of your special gift, but I don't think it's a bad thing. :happy:

[Kate Simmons]

Captlex pretty much said it all for me, Hon. I see the person first and the gender second. The chromosome combination or what it becomes means very little to me. The person makes all the difference in my mind, what their qualities and values are, what is in their heart.Strangers I pretty much take at "face value" as to the way they present, friends and acquaintences are entirely different. I generally relate to my friends in the "gender" that THEY feel is appropriate for them. By doing that, I'm by no means patronizing them, I'm simply showing respect for them and their feelings. I mean, really, who the hell am I to judge anyone else as to self perception? We all have it, we all need it, some of us are just a bit more flexible than others in our viewpoints. I can be Ericka, go out in battle and slay a bunch of enemies by cutting their heads off. Did I just do a "man" thing? I dunno, I think I just did what I had to do, simple as that. I can be Richard, put an an apron and bake a chocolate cake (mouth watering yet?). Did I just do a "woman" thing? Beats me but I wanted that cake and it tasted damn good. You''ll hear all kinds of theories and statistics as to what constitues being a man or a woman. In my mind all total fluff and bullshit. We may have been born a male or a female biologically and physically but because of who we are inside we've evolved in our humanity to realize the important thing is caring for each other whether we happen to be a "pear" or a "carrot" or somewhere in between. Yeah, we may be "oddballs" or in the minority when we feel this way but those are my feelings and I'm sticking with them.Bottom line is that life just seems easier to me when I'm not wearing a "label" and neither is anyone else.:happy: Ericka

[marie354]

I have to agree with both Capt. Lex and Ericka on this, more so with Ericka's anology of pears and carrots. People are people after all and we perceive them as they preset themselves to us. Should we label them different because 1 came out of a blue box and other out of a pink one? I don't think so. If the pink one prefers to live in the blue box then so be it. That's just who they are and I see nothing wrong with that as all. Pears and carrots... Huh! I guess I'm a pearott!
:hugs:

[kerrianna]

This is an interesting question. I think a LOT of our gender identification comes from external sources, ie. society.

I notice that when people are in groups they tend to behave in more gender specific ways, exhibiting traits that allow others to easily identify them. Get them one on one in a private setting, especially if they trust you, and they behave much more like their true selves.

So I tend not to see gender that much when I'm one to one with a person. It's always the person first (unless like you say they're maintaining extreme gender behaviour). I'm not so sure we're that much in the minority. I've known many many people who drop their facade when they feel they can do so safely, and who as individuals are accepting of a lot more than they let on.

Right from the start society tries to differentiate people. Blue for boys, pink for girls, talk this way, walk that way. Most of us spend the rest of our lives trying to find our true selves through that maze of constructions. There are a number of reasons we impose this on ourselves as a society; to keep order, facilitate a form of communication (even if it is shallow), assuage fear, and especially today TO MARKET goods.

I believe that there may be natural differences in gender behaviour, but that the level varies wildly between individuals and can be very subtle. Society likes things clearly defined so those in betweens are turned into more extremes or just shunted aside. We feel like we're in a minority because we've held onto or re-embraced the in between, surrounded by others who 'play by the rules'. My theory is that a lot of those 'playing by the rules' are more like us at heart and sometimes will prove it given the right circumstances and sense of safety.

I have a good friend who has always been very male. Plays sports, cracks bad and inappropriate jokes, acts tough, always checking out the chicks,...the usual 'boy' thing.
Because of who I am and how I've treated him over a long time, and the stuff we've been through, he is totally different around me. When it's just us I don't see him as a guy, just as who he is.

His 2 kids are an interesting study in gender. His girl he had playing sports and was a real tomboy at an early age, even though her mother was buying her make-up and nice dresses. She went through the very girl teenage years, and now she's working construction very much being one of the guys and a girl at the same time. She's just very comfortable being who she is.

His young son I can see turning out the same way. He's very much a boy, but he's already being allowed to grow his delicate and nuturing side, so I can see him again being very comfortable just being who he is. I think this is because I'm right about my friend. He is a person first, and gender identity is just something that a person uses as it works for them. It's just easier for most people to accentuate the gender they were given at birth so they tend to go through life like that.

I've gone on too long here :sb: but I believe that we're part of a groundswell of new humanity. (I hope so anyway)
Just like race and sexual orientation shouldn't be a defining factor in human relations, neither should gender. Our true expressive selves are piled under by rules, traditions, customs, fears, commerce, politics, etc. It seems like we just have to keep batting them away to find our true natures.

[Julie York]

It's all very well when you are being "reasonable" and "rational" but the base emotion of humans is to put things in very neat boxes with all the irrational biases and cliches that go with them, until you've got time to look at it later.

Gut instinct is generally racist and sexist. It IS irrational which is why people put so much store on being so reasonable and PC when they think they are being observed.

"We are experiencing severe crosswinds. Please fasten your seat belts. You pilot today is Mz Patel."

[Bernadina]

I've gone through most of my life fairly oblivious to someone's gender. Usually only noticed if someone else pointed it out and then maybe. These day I'm more aware than I used to be. It never ever mattered to me.

[carla smith]

I remember reading a thread started by the Captain not long ago ranting about someone that used the wrong pronoun.

Now it is the person......not the pronoun!

This is confusing....just tring to understand the tuff ones!

Have fun out there!

[Lanore]

If we all have male and female inside, which one has more dominance? If a man does a womans job, does that make him a woman, and vice versa? I see people for who thay are, not what they are. I believe, accepting who I am, makes me more accepting of others.

Lanore

[CaptLex]

I remember reading a thread started by the Captain not long ago ranting about someone that used the wrong pronoun.

Now it is the person......not the pronoun!

This is confusing....just tring to understand the tuff ones!
Well, actually . . . it was about many, many people using the wrong pronoun (one person I could take), but I'll attempt to help with your confusion . . . the person that I am and the proper pronoun are one and the same.

[Kate Simmons]

One side note on this. If you can believe the Bible, the Earth was created first and then the Animals and then Man. Woman was taken from Man and they were a part of each other and were to complement each other and fill(not overfill) the Earth with their offspring through their love for each other. Their children were to have their children and so on. Man and Woman were perfect in this way and were to continue on as a team working together with their qualities over lapping one another. Regardless of what you believe, logic follows that had problems not come along, things would still be this way. We have what we have however and do our best to work with it. If mutual respect and understanding are indeed the next step in the evolution of humanity, then we (as TG people) have a good head start.:happy:

[ToyGirl]

I dont know what to make of this post.

Some examples of not assuming known traits.


You win a beard trimmer in a raffle and decide to give it away at christmas. You give it to your sister-in-law , You get slapped.

You don't have a screwdriver , theres a man and a women standing near by , you ask the women to unscrew it with her thumbnail. Her nail shatters. You get slapped.

You buy your nephew a pink ipod , he gets slapped.

Wether or not you see gender it does exist , and it exists in such a big way that people turn to suicide because of it.

[carla smith]

Quit drinking all the rum, and pass it around to all the mates here!

In this make believe world there are no pronouns....so logically there are no right or wrong ones...no one should be concerned about it. Even adam and eve did not know that they were naked (male or female) until they sinned. Quick! grab me a pink leaf!

Forgive me for now I have sinned.....:evilbegon

androgynous
1 : having the characteristics or nature of both male and female
2 a : neither specifically feminine nor masculine <the androgynous pronoun them> b : suitable to or for either sex <androgynous clothing>
3 : having traditional male and female roles obscured or reversed <an androgynous

Have fun out there!

[Kate Simmons]

That's funny Carla. How do we know that Adam didn't grab the pink fig leaf when Eve wasn't looking and hey, what's Eve doing with the blue one? Sure would explain a lot, wouldn't it? :heehee: I celebrate the fact that we have the diversity here that we do and that folks have the courage to be who they are despite incredible odds. In the end, a lot of the things we are so concerned about today may be "Much ado about nothing". There is a fantastic spread of humanity here and I feel it's quite refreshing.When we limit ourselves or others to "boxes" we are doing an injustice to both. As people just being people, we are indeed a force to be reckoned with. I realize old habits die hard though and the world isn't going to change over night. In the meantime, we have each other and that ain't half bad in my book. The support and caring are greatly appreciated and shows what we are truely made of.:happy: Ericka

[CaptLex]

Quit drinking all the rum, and pass it around to all the mates here!

In this make believe world there are no pronouns....so logically there are no right or wrong ones...no one should be concerned about it.
Okay, I think I now see why you're confused. It's not make believe - to me. And I'll never give up the rum. :tongueout

[boygirl]

i would agree that we are hyper aware too
Chrissy:love:

[Kate Simmons]

Okay, I think I now see why you're confused. It's not make believe - to me. And I'll never give up the rum. :tongueoutWe'd never ask you to Cap, in fact we count on it. Hey, I need my "job" as Wench, you know.:cheers: ;) :battingeyelashes:

[Casey Morgan]

I appreciate everybody's replies. It's nice to know I'm not alone here. I think the transgender community is all about "accept me for the person I am", which I just do naturally. It isn't something I learned how to do, or even do consciously.


I dont know what to make of this post.

Some examples of not assuming known traits.


You win a beard trimmer in a raffle and decide to give it away at christmas. You give it to your sister-in-law , You get slapped.

You don't have a screwdriver , theres a man and a women standing near by , you ask the women to unscrew it with her thumbnail. Her nail shatters. You get slapped.

You buy your nephew a pink ipod , he gets slapped.

Wether or not you see gender it does exist , and it exists in such a big way that people turn to suicide because of it.

But why would I give my sister-in-law a beard trimmer? That wouldn't be accepting her for who she is, unless she's a post-op TS who hasn't had electrolysis and has decided to grow a beard. Gender exists, there's no question of that. I guess what I'm saying is you are not your gender. You have a gender (some don't, actually) but you aren't a clone of everyone of your gender. So for me to assume that you are a particular way and will react in a particular way just because of your gender is... well, I'll refrain from saying wrong but that's just not the way I am.


I see a person first and whatever else they may be much later - whether we're talking about race, color, religion, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, gender or gender identity.

Now that I'm working on. I'm getting there but I still have a ways to go. :o

[Casey Morgan]

In this make believe world there are no pronouns....so logically there are no right or wrong ones...no one should be concerned about it.

Yeah, but I bet if I referred to you as "it" I'd get an earful. It's not really about the pronouns, it's about respect.

[suzy]

Let me put it this way......WHAT?:D

[carla smith]

Shari_Ann

See post #3.

You say that you can not see gender....so call me "it". I am beyond the caring stage of what people call me! (since probably first grade)

It is respectful to use the correct pronoun that will fit the person you are addressing. If it is not obvious, "androgynous", then do the best you can to not offend the person you are addressing. For me a “hey you!” With the Cheerleader Skirt”, “pass me the rum” will do. I will pass you the rum with a smile…fighting off Ericka with the other hand.

The Captain and others here have expressed a desire to be addressed in a certain manner, and out of respect to them, I will continue to, and always will respect their wishes.

Hopefully, that is the point of this thread!

Have fun out there!

[Kate Simmons]

You don't have to fight me Carla(well, maybe arm wrestle a little), I unconditionally accept my friends for who they are and how they wish to be recognized. I guess I am guilty of being "gender blind" in that respect. I didn't bring it out again in the "Personality" thread but most everyone here knows I don't try to put on a "pretense" when I'm Ericka. I'm a "tomboy" plain and simple and in that respect more like Ellie Mae, I guess. Anyway, I'm comfortable that way. I've been called everything in the "book", pronouns notwithstanding but really none of that affects who I am as a person and never will. The English language with all it's nouns, pronouns,adjectives, verbs and dangling participles can go kiss my pitude. What's important to me is the person inside for myself and others, is now and ever shall be.Conceptionally and for a point of reference, yes gender designations are necessary for the sake of simplicity but my practice is to get to know my friends for who they are, not for what they are called. So simple it's confusing, right?:happy: :battingeyelashes: :happy: EKR

[Marla S]

So just how much in the minority am I, if at all? Can you see gender easily or at all? Does gender matter to you, and do you think gender should matter to you?
Well, I think I have to disagree with CaptLex and Ericka/Rich here.
What comes first is gender, no matter how humanistic you break it down later after you genderboxed it; which might lead to open the box again. That's just the way the human brain works.
The brain always recognizes something by its concept first. You don't count the edges to realize that a shape is a square. You realize the concept of a square and start counting the edges only if you are in doubt.
It's the very same with gender, and IMO one of the main reasons why passing for some and transitioning for others is so important. They want to be realized (and accepted) as the concept "Women" or "Man" respectively in the first instance, no matter of the actual individual traits and skills.
Starting with the individual traits and skills instead of the concept is a humanistic bogus IMO.
But, it is a completaly different thing if you are able to leave or modify the initial concept when you learn more about a person. A lot of pople are not able (not even willing) to leave the concept level (big problem for TG folks, racism, etc.), others are able to and that is a good thing.

[Kate Simmons]

I see your point Marla but I'm not sure everyone sees everything in exactly the same way. Nothing is immutable. I may see a square slightly different than you see it. Due to training and learning standards, we agree that this is a square even though we may see it differently. We may also see facets of it individually that the other person does not see. Still, it is a square and we have both agreed on that.However, I never assume I see the same thing you see. Same thing with the color blue for instance.You see magenta, I see a slightly more aqua color, yet due to what we have learned and standardization, we both agree it indeed blue.I don't assume we see the same hue though. When it comes to people it's even more different. We both see a person who appears to be a woman. You see a woman, I see a person but we both agree it's a person. I don't assume we both see that person the same way. This may seem like "fuzzy logic" to some but it's the way I think. I never assume I see things the same way as anyone else and never will.:happy:

[Marla S]

You are right Ericka/Rich, we all may see things slightly different and concepts are not immutable.
Nevertheless I can't say for myself that I don't box people at first, and I can't say that gender doesn't matter.
It's true that the vast majority of traits and skills are not genetically or hormonal determined, hence its mostly the gender independent traits and skills that count in a personal contact.
BUT most people enjoy or even want to be treated gender adequate. So it would even be disrespecting not to "box" them.
It's not the question of the boxes itself, it's the question if you use the boxes to their benefit or not and if you are able to find another one if your intitial choice proved wrong.

So, yes gender matters to me, and it has to matter to me, like boxes do.

[CaptLex]

Well, I think I have to disagree with CaptLex and Ericka/Rich here. What comes first is gender, no matter how humanistic you break it down later after you genderboxed it; which might lead to open the box again. That's just the way the human brain works.
Well, I did say I was in the minority. I've never claimed that my brain works like anyone else's either. :p

[kerrianna]

Well, I did say I was in the minority. I've never claimed that my brain works like anyone else's either. :p

Boy, you can say that again! :rolleyes: :heehee: :D

That's why we love you. :bighug:

[Kate Simmons]

Well, I did say I was in the minority. I've never claimed that my brain works like anyone else's either. :pWhich is the very reason I love you for who you are my dear Captain. That's one thing that is immutable, I hope.:happy:

[Marla S]

Ok, ok :hiding: