So I TOUCHED A NERVE

[Penny]

Well, I'm glad. It did what it was supposed to do. Now maybe you'll read this
thinking "just let him say the wrong thing and I'll rip him or her again., however you choose to view me.
First of all, what propted me to write this thread was actually a young man age 23 who cooks for me. I only chose to use the makeup thing because the forum is comprised of mostly ladies, real and otherwise. I knew that would fire you up. The truth is, my wife wears no makeup most of the time. That's her choice and that's ok. I suppose we make an odd pair going shopping, her in bluejean and sweatshirt and me all dressed up.
Back to the young man. He has a job in computer science and can't get a job in his field. Why? He is a slob and lacks comunication skills; until he learns how to sell himself, he will never work in his field.
The fact is life is a salesjob if you want to get anywhere. We know when it's necessary to make a supersales effort and you GG's know if makeup is a must or when it can slide and yes you can sell yourself without makeup. For us CD's , esspecially those who go out in public, we sell something we genetically are not. How hard is that?
My ex daughter-in-law chose a sheer sleeved wedding dress that exposed
her totally tatooed arms and it was the first time we met her. Our first impression was correct and she was what she was.
I live near a hignschool and I see the students come home everyday looking like the young man who can't get a job in computers. Have we become so lax and comfortable that our children and grandchildren have no one to emulate. If that's the case, we must do better. I think a could do better
in the male mode.
So for those men who look like they haven't shaved in 3 days, you look like a scuzz and while you might be able to make a tv commersal or movie, you have done nothing to help this guy get a job!
Has life gotten so fast for all of us to look ok, not necessarily pretty,beautiful
gorgeous, dapper, dashing or hansom? Can't we do better at looking ok.
Shouldn't we expect this younger generation to understand appropriate?

:love: to all

Penny

PS I am not known for the usual. Afterall, am part of an unusual group

[Butterfly Bill]

One of the main reasons I have stayed in construction is that I have never had to "sell myself" in an office interview to get a job. The supervisor says, "Have you done this before?", I say yes if I have, and then he watches me actually work for a few days, and then we start talking about hiring me on permanently. And I never have to dress up, in either gender mode.

[Lissa Stevens]

While I must have missed your other posting I do agree with you about how people theses days dress slobs. I used to run some convienence stores, I know it's only a convienence store, but they would come in to apply for a job looking like they just crawled out of the sewers. I was taught that no matter what the job you dressed up. Your appearance sets the tone for what people think about you. There are times when ultra casual is ok but you should at least try and look presentable most of the time. I am not saying that you should dress like they did on 50's and 60's TV shows like Father Knows Best, etc but you can dress a little better.
Wearing your pants around your ankles, or torn up jeans and looking like you just crawled out of bed is NOT attractive.

[Sophia Rearen]

I'm not getting it, Penny. Now, it seems this is some kind of sociological experiment gone crazy. But, to me, it looks like some feeble attempt at getting back in with everyones graces and you come out unscathed. Is that what you are doing? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. If I'm right, why not just buck up and be a man, ok a man who dresses enfemme from time to time?

[Diana West]

I can appreciate your intention, but not your method.
True, you do have to sell yourself. And people should try to present themselves better. There is a difference between making a statement through fashion or style and just being lazy.
The "attack" on GG was, I believe, ineffective. Judging from how long it takes me to put on make-up and get dressed I can understand why one wouldn't want to do that just to go outside.

With that being said, I completely understand your exasperation with some people's blaming others because they are too lazy to present a better image of themselves.

Personally, I go crazy when I see a public sign with a word or two spelled incorrectly. Again it may be trivial, but it speaks volumes about the business and business owner.

[Glamourgirl GG]

Being in the fashion and beauty industry, I see nothing of what you are saying. In fact, fashion and beauty products are the fastest grossing products in the overall industry. That would be because women demand gorgeous lipsticks and hip clothing...because they are wearing them.

Now as a woman, and pregnant at that with 3 other children, I can tell you there are days when I am working so hard and am so darn busy, that I don't put on any makeup at all. Certainly it's not because I am a slob, but because I am physically exhausted to even lift a finger to apply mascara.

I also don't let makeup speak for who I am. While I am may be nice to look at on the outside, I am even more beautiful on the inside.

[Sedona]

I'm not getting it, Penny. Now, it seems this is some kind of sociological experiment gone crazy. But, to me, it looks like some feeble attempt at getting back in with everyones graces and you come out unscathed. Is that what you are doing? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. If I'm right, why not just buck up and be a man, ok a man who dresses enfemme from time to time?

Penny, nice try. I agree with Miss Rearen here. I did something similar to you about a year ago (much different subject), and got blasted for it. Hope you learned your lesson, as I did mine.

As for the conforming to get ahead in society thing. Sure, I guess. If everyone had the job of a banker, or some other "suit," your arguement would hold more water. I admit, jeans and a hoodie aren't the best way to garner support on Wall Street.

But, that young woman with the tattoos might turn out to be the next Van Gogh, or invent some revolutionary new technology for the masses. And, if you think that's a reach, maybe the same woman inspires someone who does go on to this kind of greatness.

I get so frustrated at folks who judge people's worth in society based on what they look like, or what style they don. Just because it makes no sense to you, doesn't mean that it can't make sense to someone.

[Fallen Angel]

Personaly It still matters that you targeted one group of people only and made a comparisin,just as the world does to us. If your previous thread was titled different and your choice of people were mixed that thread may not have had such a negitive impacted and a certain amount of trust and respect would not have been damaged.

And if in trying to stike a nerve and thinking that now every one is going to walk around in ballroom gowns and coctail dresses I think not.And im surly not going to dress like Mrs Clever and bake brownies either.

I live as full time as it gets Try standing in heels for 10 +hours a day and haveing to re-apply your makeup.six days a week and when the day is over nothing feels better to me than my torn jeans and cut off sweat shirt and the though of doing house work in a maids outfitt isnt my idea of fun.And this is how I feel.

If a person wants to shop in there jamies and slippers in the market and while in line theres some one in a suit I dont think there money is any different and like my self I couldnt care what some one thinks or not

[Andrea Nicole]

Hi,
But they are still GG"s .... something we will NEVER be.....no matter how much training, HRT, FFS, SRS ... on & on ...... pass / no-pass ..... we are NOT GG's ..... they are the awesome creations which we emulate .......
We have a group of eight, 6 dressers & 2-GG's, that get together and go out about once every 2 months to dinner, dancing, etc. This includes very nice "straight" places.
Not meaning to be caddy, one of the GG's, the married one is about averge looking, nice, but average. The divorced GG is a total FOX, head to toe, hair to legs, etc. Two out of the six dressers in our group consisently get picked as GG's before even the Fox GG does. Their looks, hair, mannerisms, physique, legs, attire, manners during dinner, moves on the dance floor, etc are kind of what a GG would like to look like (I think).
Anyway, that just my opinion .....
Huggs,
Andi

[Di]

All I see in either post is someone very judgemental about others...:Angry3:

[Penny]

One of the main reasons I have stayed in construction is that I have never had to "sell myself" in an office interview to get a job. The supervisor says, "Have you done this before?", I say yes if I have, and then he watches me actually work for a few days, and then we start talking about hiring me on permanently. And I never have to dress up, in either gender mode.
Hi bill, you may not had a formal interview, but didn't you have to sell youself
with confidence and ability?

:hugs:

Penny

[Christina Nicole]

No comment about the original post or thread. It's stands on it's own merits. On the other hand, that many people dress like... street people is undeniable. I've had people come in on job interviews for professional level positions who looked anything but professional. Woman and girls in shorts and tee shirts with flip flops who looked like they were going to the beach, not seeking professional employment. I've seen men and boys come for interviews dressed in jeans, boots and tee shirts with slogans printed on them. They looked more like they where heading to play sports or work on some farm machinery. They certainly didn't look like anyone I would want to represent me, my department, or my company.

Also agree about the tattoos. There's nothing worse looking than those things. If one has them, cover them up in an interview and for business. Few things scream "bad judgment" more loudly than those things.

I also don't understand this fascination with jeans. They're certainly no more comfortable than any other pants, but they are more sloppy looking. Actually, until they're pretty worn, they are less comfortable, as the cloth is rather stiff. It's as if some communist dictator decreed that the uniform pants must be jeans. Out with the mao boiler suit and in with the dungarees? I can see peer pressure on kids in high school forcing them to dress alike, but adults, too? One would think that adults would grow out of that peer pressure thing and that they could think for themselves and not be like sheep blindly following everyone else.

Interestingly there have been studies that have found that when people dress professionally in an office, that they behave more professionally. Some firms of which I am acquainted have shucked this business casual silliness and have gone back to proper business attire. Makes sense to me.

Warm regards,
Christina Nicole

[Tatiana Thomas]

Well im not so sure about the other posting but I can see that you view appearance as the only thing that will get you far in life. While that can help it is a moot point if you have a strong will.

Case in point. A customer of mine is a billionaire(he just picked up his new car that cost him 850,000 usd). Now looking at him, in his torn up jeans, long scraggly hair and scraggly unshaved look you would think he is a bum.

He built his fortune himself through hard work and being respected.

He has mentioned a time before that he has had this style from day one and would never change for anyone.

Bottom line is, people respect others for who they are, not what they look like.

Appearance is just what it is. Personality is what makes people go.

[Kieron Andrew]

All I see in either post is someone very judgemental about others...:Angry3:
thats exactly what i saw! and still see!

[Sweet Virginia]

Hi bill, you may not had a formal interview, but didn't you have to sell youself
with confidence and ability?

:hugs:

Penny

No. Bill's ability inspires confidence and it becomes a seller's market! LOL.

[Penny]

I'm not getting it, Penny. Now, it seems this is some kind of sociological experiment gone crazy. But, to me, it looks like some feeble attempt at getting back in with everyones graces and you come out unscathed. Is that what you are doing? If I'm wrong, I'm sorry. If I'm right, why not just buck up and be a man, ok a man who dresses enfemme from time to time?
Sophia, I posted a thread last evening "I have a gender identity problem" and so far 411 people have viewed with 12 resposes. This povocative post so far has in half a day had 1841 viewers and 99 posts. So it would seem that less are concerned with my problem and more are concerned if I am a problem.
So what happens with this thread, it may or may not have been ultimately effective.

:hugs:

Penny

[NatalieBliss]

:thumbsdn:

[Penny]

All I see in either post is someone very judgemental about others...:Angry3:So then, I have been judged as very judgemental. hmmmm

:hugs:

Penny

[Penny]

Well im not so sure about the other posting but I can see that you view appearance as the only thing that will get you far in life. While that can help it is a moot point if you have a strong will.

Case in point. A customer of mine is a billionaire(he just picked up his new car that cost him 850,000 usd). Now looking at him, in his torn up jeans, long scraggly hair and scraggly unshaved look you would think he is a bum.

He built his fortune himself through hard work and being respected.

He has mentioned a time before that he has had this style from day one and would never change for anyone.

Bottom line is, people respect others for who they are, not what they look like.

Appearance is just what it is. Personality is what makes people go.So the he has no comunication skills, he just works hard and everyone respects him because he's a hardworker. He doesn't sell himself?

:hugs:

Penny

[kathy gg]

Penny as someone who has always enjoyed your past posts...and to be honest...I rarely read about the gender problems.....I like to focus helping people with SO related issues, more than gender idenity issues...if I feel I can contribute to helping copels issues, then I stick with what I know....and I stay out of area's which I have pretty much zero expertise, liek someone questioning their gender.

I can see you went a round a'bout way in making your point. Why you had to single out gg's and not just tell your story correctly the first time boggels the mind. Maybe you are angry because since you do have gender issues you think "if I had been born a gg I would take *full advantage* of being a woman and all it could emcompass". Who knows...I am taking a guess at where your anger came from.

And you are entitled to your out-dated and narrow opinion of*what we women should be*.

People often ask why I moved from Texas to Canada to get married and find a guy....and the truth is Texas has many many men with views on how/what/and when a woman should be and do and look like. Thnakfully my folks were a bit hippi-ish in their approach to rasining me. I learned that value in life does not mean how pretty you are. Some of the kindest and most giving women in the world do not look or act {thank god!} like Paris Hilton. If being a woman is all about hair/make up/ and how fancy yoru clothing is....well I guess I am not a woman.

[Kieron Andrew]

If being a woman is all about hair/make up/ and how fancy yoru clothing is....well I guess I am not a woman.
You look all woman to me:heehee: :love:

[Amanda Jane]

for people who don't want a book judged by the cover / there sure seems to be a lot of it

do not most mafia godfathers go to church every sunday / does it make them better people

next time you break down / and don't like tattoos / wait for an MBA in a suit to help you / bring lunch

[Alice Torn]

It is the nature of the human mind, to make judgments, whether, in raising kids, sports, job performance, music, fishing, hiking, driving, dressing, eating, yada yada. I believe, that
God gave us a bit of the mind, of God, but we are not to condemn others. Weighing things, making judgments, and decisions, is normal. Thwere is the big difference between judging with wisdom, and understanding, and condemning someone. I heard a radio talk show host- Dennis Prager, give a talk, about how he laments "the death of the skirt". I do too, but know, thaT GG'S can't practically be dressed in dresses, and skirts, that often. Lucille

[GypsyKaren]

It would be an understatement to say this whole thing stirred up a hornets nest...I am not judging anyone, I am not siding with anyone, and I'm not denying anyone the right to state their opinion, this is your forum, I just try to keep the peace. Whatever your feelings about this, the fact of the matter is that feelings were hurt over this, people over-reacted and got carried away, and quite frankly it turned into a mess like I knew it would.
If you want to have a different opinion on anything, great, that's what it's all about. I just ask that all of you think before you hit that submit button, you can easily state your views without lashing out, getting personal, or purposely starting a fire. You want to voice something about anything, do it in a way that you'd like to be treated, do it with class, that way even those who disagree with you will give you a nod of respect.
I think everything that can be said or should be said about this has already been done, so I am closing this thread...it's time to think, and it's time to move on and forward.

Karen