Why tons of M-to-F's and so few F-to-Ms? [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

mona lisa

01-09-2007, 08:13 PM

Women basically crossdress every time they do not wear feminine clothing and society accepts that. Hence for a woman to wear a men's sports jersey, shirt, pants, shoes, etc. no one says much about it now. But fifty plus years ago it was different. Whatever one says about those days, at least things were consistent: there were men's clothes and women's clothes and one did not wear the clothes of the other. Back then, some women challenged that standard and over time it became accepted for women to wear what was previously considered "men's clothes." I am sure the war helped in that area to no small degree too. But there has been nothing of a similar situation to make these matters consistent -hence you have women who are angered by their boyfriends or husbands wearing feminine clothing but somehow if men acted the same way and insisted that women only wear dresses and the like, the word "discrimination" and other such words would be thrown around.

But because they are not and because it is acceptable to some extent for women in society to "dress like men" but not acceptable for men to "dress like women", that explains the disparity on this site probably as good as anything else. I think we can blame the attitude of many feminists for this: they cultivated the mentality that feminine dress, attitudes, and the like were somehow "demeaning" or constituted a "lesser-class citizen." Look for example at how those sorts treat women who choose to be stay at home sorts and you will see what the problem is.

To some extent a cross-dresser in the eyes of people with that mentality is taking the clothes of a "lesser being" or somehow it is viewed as "demeaning" when men dress in "women's clothes" but not when women dress in "men's clothes." This double standard is implied whenever a cross-dressing woman takes issue with a man for cross-dressing. No one presumes that a cross-dressing woman must be a lesbian (though some of them may well be) but a man who cross-dresses *must* be gay according to these people. Again, an arbitrary double standard.

There are things of value in what is traditionally female, in clothing, in outlooks, etc. Perhaps if cross-dressing becomes uniformally accepted this will be realized but probably not until then (if that even happens at all).

Marla S

01-09-2007, 08:16 PM

My :2c:

1.) Woman have a by far wider range of options to express themselve through their appearence - from ultra fem to boyish. Hence, there is just less need to crossdress. Only if they come close to transitioning (being TS) it becomes crossdressing and they have to face social repression too.

(Crossdressing for men or at least being suspicious of being gay almost starts if you wear a pink shirt or apply moisturizer in the morning)

2.) Desirable masculine traits are usually not associated with the appearence, but with independence, economical and political power, money, physical strength, education.
Women's movement opened the door to this "typical" masculine traits for women.
This is the women's field of "crossdressing". You will find the reverse proportions here (i.e. more female managers than male houswifes (by choice), more female soldiers than male midwifes, more female boxers than male belly dancers).

3.) Women lack testosterone, which helps a bit to smooth things out instead of going to the extremes (i. e. emulating a man).

Kieron Andrew

01-09-2007, 08:53 PM

we had this question on another forum and this what i said and i still stick by it

'i believe this is not strictly true.....i believe alot of FTMs dont come out for many reasons........MTFs are just more obvious because of the obvious change of clothing, women have been wearing men's clothing for centuries so it is so much easier to hide any gender related issue to a certain point, whilst i do believe the percentage of MTFs are greater but not considerably so

one reason i think is because there are lots of offline support groups aimed at mtfs and not ftms so therefore there is an underlying lack of support for ftms to feel they can 'come out'

Marla S

01-09-2007, 09:00 PM

'i believe this is not strictly true.....i believe alot of FTMs dont come out for many reasons........MTFs are just more obvious because of the obvious change of clothing, women have been wearing men's clothing for centuries so it is so much easier to hide any gender related issue to a certain point, whilst i do believe the percentage of MTFs are greater but not considerably so

That's an interesting thought, because I sometimes think that I maybe wouldn't even consider myself a CD crossdresser or having gender issues with a bit more "freedom". I might have to rethink that.

pocoyo

01-09-2007, 09:01 PM

Hi it's late and I'm tired so haven't bothered to read the other replies yet (will tomorrow) sorry!

I just wanted to say that it's interesting how most of the ftms here aren't even "crossdressers" as such but seem to be transexual. There is only 1 or 2 that I know who profess to be soley a crossdresser and are totally happy with their birth gender.

I guess maybe there aren't many "crossdresser" ftms because women dress in men's clothes anyway, so those that "come out" as being transgendered and seek others on boards such as these, are usually those who are transexual/gender dysphoric, and struggling with their gender.

SlenderGurl

01-09-2007, 09:04 PM

I'm so impressed with most of the 10 replies to my question (thus far). Some of you -- I have to single out mona lisa and Marla S from Germany -- provided nothing short of brilliant insights.

And Tina, Sweet Jane, TxKimberly -- you all make great sense, too. Women can crossdress at will without even raising a ripple; we see entirely unadorned, jeans-and-shirt-wearing women walking around every day.

I suppose a minimum standard for a woman who's a F-to-M might have to expand to include such relative intangibles as classically male personality traits (whatever those are), and a complete lack of interest in feminine clothes/jewelry/cosmetics.

Funny, but women are entirely free to have strong interests in what once were considered the exclusive domain of men: pick-up trucks, cigar smoking, football, target shooting, you name it. At least one of you pointed out how the women's movement opened everything up, and you couldn't be more right.

Thanks for your two cents' worth...it was worth a lot more! :2c:

pocoyo

01-09-2007, 09:12 PM

I suppose a minimum standard for a woman who's a F-to-M might have to expand to include such relative intangibles as classically male personality traits (whatever those are), and a complete lack of interest in feminine clothes/jewelry/cosmetics.

Funny, but women are entirely free to have strong interests in what once were considered the exclusive domain of men: pick-up trucks, cigar smoking, football, target shooting, you name it. At least one of you pointed out how the women's movement opened everything up, and you couldn't be more right.

If a woman (who's happy to be a woman, non ftm,) is dressed in shirts and stuff though (in a plain way, not a pretty little cowgirl type way) she often gets frowned upon, seen as ugly, frumpy and sometimes called a lesbian even if she isn't one. It's not all plain sailing for them.

Also they might be free to have traditionally "masculine" interests but a lot of men seem to see it either as "sweet" or weird. Like a novelty thing rather than taking them seriously. I never usually would say anything about how it is to be a female (seeing as I'm not a proper one), but having lived as one at times, I can tell you that it can be such hard work and so frustrating and painful to prove that you are not inferior to the men around you.

Kate Simmons

01-09-2007, 09:17 PM

I believe Kieron is right. I believe there are a lot of F T M's out there but they lack the support systems to pursue being themselves. A lot of folks have these feelings but go through life filling their "assigned" role and never demonstrate those feelings openly. I have a few female cousins who can lick their weight in wildcats, like sports and go hunting with their Dad but they went ahead and had families anyway despite their propensities. I still can't beat either of them at arm wrestling, wuss that I am, or would want to cross them. I respect them for who they are regardless. Let's face it, for whatever reason, M T F's are a dime a dozen. I find it refreshing that we have guys here who want to be recognized for who they really are and I for one am all for it.:happy:

SlenderGurl

01-09-2007, 09:19 PM

Oops, I forgot to add one thing:

All the great points said, I still agree with TxKimberly (and my original supposition): there ARE more M-to-Fs than F-to-Ms, even after counting in those F-to-Ms that don't stand out because any woman can don "menswear" without standing out.

And I have a hunch that the insight offered by Marla S is at the root of this seeming gender disparity: testosterone. Men are more sexually charged than women by a country mile, by their genetic and hormonal nature. And that energy just more often finds nontraditional or "alternative" ways to manifest itself. Think of the incredible spectrum of behaviors for gay men (a few of them unfortunately self-destructive) vs. gay women.

The other question that's been rolling around in my head is also not original: is the desire to dress more "nature" or "nurture?" I suspect both, with a maybe heavier influence from childhood and even adult environmental factors. I know a lot of fellow CDs won't agree, but that's half the fun...

CaptLex

01-09-2007, 09:19 PM

I guess its because the female experience is statistically more desirable and so fewer women want to emulate the other sex. Just my opinion, dont mean to offend anyone.
Nah . . . that's not it.

I think a lot of FtoM can blend in to society more than a 6"3" man in a skirt, just think about it, cut thier hair throw on any male attar and they are there, may get a glance but thats about it as far as crossdressing, now going even farther like transgendered, well I think the FtoM can explain that better than me.
You are very wise, Red!

No offense, but... Why would anyone want to be a man. Jeans & T-shirt, suit & tie. The only colorful things for a man are ties, tees, and boxers. And the shoes....... Black or brown. How drab indeed. I need colorful clothes.
I could explain to you why someone would want to be a man, but that might take all night - how much time you got? BTW, I have colorful male clothes and a suit & tie has the same effect on me that frilly stuff has on some of you girls.

Because men are nasty, smelly, and gross. Women are beautiful.
I agree that women are beautiful, but (trust me on this) men are HOT! ;)

I agree that I think crossdressing is more commonplace amongst women anyway, so many probably wouldn't actually label themselves as such. Most women nowadays (sadly) wear trousers on a daily basis, are free to sport short hair styles, and as such wouldn't even consider joining a support group for it.
Very good, Kate. :clap:

To some extent a cross-dresser in the eyes of people of people with that mentality is taking the clothes of a "lesser being" or somehow it is viewed as "demeaning" when men dress in "women's clothes" but not when women dress in "men's clothes."
I agree on this point, but . . .

No one presumes that a cross-dressing woman must be a lesbian
. . . guess again! :sad:

Why tons of M-to-F's and so few F-to-Ms?
Actually there are several reasons - most of them covered well here. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that there are plenty of women who would rather not wear skirts, heels, make-up, long hair, etc., but they're not considered FtM until they start to question themselves and come to realize they may have a male side to their personality (even if they also have a female side). Conversely, an MtF (whether CD or TS) will immediately be crossdressing as soon as they don any female attire.

As to why there less FtMs here (or anywhere else for that matter), it's basically because even we don't generally know that there are other people out there like us and don't know where to go for support since places like this one are very hard to find.

Kieron Andrew

01-09-2007, 09:29 PM

as we know being crossdressers/transgendered for many its more than just about clothes alone.....hense my earlier comment stands........

pocoyo

01-09-2007, 09:32 PM

Good one Lex :happy:
I totally agree with everything you've said Captain. I had those exact thoughts when reading this myself (I did read more of it in the end!)

I hope you are listened-to, seeing as we actually are ftm's, and as such, do happen to rather know something about it!.....

CaptLex

01-09-2007, 09:34 PM

Ironically, the testosterone, besides improving my libido and overall well being, helped bring out my feminine side again.
We're not too different, Jennifer. The testosterone that my body naturally produces (which had been suppressed by female hormones) brought out my masculinity and started me crossdressing again (and we won't even talk about the libido).

kerrianna

01-09-2007, 09:42 PM

Actually there are several reasons - most of them covered well here. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that there are plenty of women who would rather not wear skirts, heels, make-up, long hair, etc., but they're not considered FtM until they start to question themselves and come to realize they may have a male side to their personality (even if they also have a female side). Conversely, an MtF (whether CD or TS) will immediately be crossdressing as soon as they don any female attire.

As to why there less FtMs here (or anywhere else for that matter), it's basically because even we don't generally know that there are other people out there like us and don't know where to go for support since places like this one are very hard to find.

I was going to weigh in on this, being the know-it-all that I am, but had to cook my sweetie dinner first, and come back to find the Capt has said exactly what I was going to say. :daydreaming: ...sigh...what a man! No wonder he is captain.

psst, I was with you all the time Capt., I was just playing along with the troublemakers, and I do have a weakness for pirate kittens :happy:

CaptLex

01-09-2007, 09:49 PM

I was going to weigh in on this, being the know-it-all that I am, but had to cook my sweetie dinner first, and come back to find the Capt has said exactly what I was going to say. :daydreaming: ...sigh...what a man! No wonder he is captain.

psst, I was with you all the time Capt., I was just playing along with the troublemakers, and I do have a weakness for pirate kittens :happy:
You're one of the wise and caring ones, Kerrianna, which is why you're always welcome on the ship (the FtM side).

P.S. The pirate kitty was cute! :D

Shannon CD

01-09-2007, 10:07 PM

I guess that what it can all be reduced to is the age old question "what is a crossdresser?"

In my opinion, whenever you don an article of clothing deemed to be of the opposite sex (i.e. dresses are for women, dress shirts are for men) then you could, by most definitions, be labled a "crossdresser".

The point has been made here that women have been free to do this for some time now, with little or no repurcussions, depending on the extent to which they dress. Just go to a ball game and you will see almost as many women wearing the team jersey as you do men. Are they all CD's? The general public does not think so. BUT, if you went to any other type of event where most men were obviously wearing blouses or carrying a purse eyebrows would be raised. I'm sure that every one of them would be labeled as such.

Most heterosexual or bisexual MtF Cds here would agree (as would quite a few gay MtF CDs and FtM Cds, I'm sure) that a pretty woman in panties (sorry Tamara) and a man's white, button down dress shirt is considered to be one of the sexiest images known, but she is not a crossdresser.

Now reverse that. Can anyone think of an example of a man wearing something feminine being considered just as sexy by the mass population? Help me out here, because I simply cannot.

The fact is that it takes little in the way of a man wearing female clothes for him to be considered a CD. On the other hand a woman must go to extremes to draw the attention of the public, and even then I have seen some very sexy and glamourous women who continue to look sexy and glamourous when dressed in a man's 3 piece suit.

Maybe in 50 years men will be wearing clothes once thought to be for women and not even think of themselves as crossdressers. Stranger things have happened. As a matter of fact, I cannot help but to think about the images of our founding fathers in those buckled shoes, white tights, wigs, and very flamboyant jackets and ruffled shirts and wonder if they realized that in the future those fashions would be more closely associated with femininity than masculinity. Things are cyclical, including fashions.

In closing I would like to add that part of the attraction to wearing women's clothing, for me, has a lot to do with the fact that it is not "acceptable". The taboo nature adds dimension and excitement whenever I slide on a pair of pantyhose. Would any of us even be crosdressers if it were not for this aspect?

Just my humble observations.

Alice Torn

01-09-2007, 10:11 PM

I totally agree with Slendergirl, Mona Lisa. I live in the same house, with a 48 year old gg, who has not put on feminine clthes, since childhood. The only dresses, skirts, lady shoes, hose, and jewelry, are mine! Talk about ROLE REVERSAL!! I remember 1971. That is when the girls were first allowed to wear pants, to my high school. I noticed a definite change, in their attitudes, too, and, it has never been the same! An old 78 year old sage, said, deep down, in the hearts of all women, is at least just a tiny bit, or more, resentfulness ,that they are female, resenting that men are the stronger sex, and heaeds of the home. You may take issue with this, and certainly it is less true, in some gg's. But, it is unmistakable, that gg's tend to usurp male authority, and they HAVE rebelled, and the wearing of men's clothes, and no one says anything, IS a double standard. It is a form of their inner rebellion, even if they don't realize it! Since society says that MTF crossdressing is a perversion, it also should brand FTM crossdressing(though most don't consider it crossdressing), a perversion. Like one said, 50 years ago, it would have been looked on, as very odd, for women to wear men's clothes, and cut their hair short, like a man's. I remember an early Comet commercial, in the early 60's, with a lady plumber in it. It was considered funny. With the feminization of our society, it is still taboo, for guys to dress up, largely, but nothing is said about women dressing in men's clothes, all of the time. A huge double standard. But, it seems, that down through history, the males have always had more expected of them, including to tame the frontier, protect, and lead. J. Edgar Hoover, I heard, was a crossdresser, and he led a powerful FBI, for decades.

RobertaFermina

01-09-2007, 10:38 PM

In the middle of my New Years Eve Social at church, I changed from Guy to Girl mode.

The women all were curious, and tolerant, and many were enthusiastic. :hugs:

To a man, the guys looked at me :yikes: "moon faced", and said NOTHING.

And this is at a church that is LBGT Welcoming.

If I had walked in the door and joind the church as a TransGender person, they would not bat an eyelash. But when a leader of the church suddenly shows up that way - :devil: WOOOOOAAAAHH!

Based on my experience - Women are curious and supportive, even Flattered.
Men are confused, and threatened, and possibly dismissive with respect to someone they know who Crosses Over.

MTFs NEED support from intentionally formed CD communities/groups because men's social and professional heirarchies discourage them from supporting and tolerating CDs.

I believe that wherever I am on the CD spectrum, from occasional, to full-time, I need the support of a community like this.

MTF's can tell me your experience. Do occasional MTF's NEED a support community? Can they survive and thrive without seeking support groups? Is there an occasional FTMer among you with an opinion?

+? Roberta

marie354

01-09-2007, 10:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie354
No offense, but... Why would anyone want to be a man. Jeans & T-shirt, suit & tie. The only colorful things for a man are ties, tees, and boxers. And the shoes....... Black or brown. How drab indeed. I need colorful clothes.
Quote:
Posted by Capt. Lex
I could explain to you why someone would want to be a man, but that might take all night - how much time you got? BTW, I have colorful male clothes and a suit & tie has the same effect on me that frilly stuff has on some of you girls.

I do know there is a lot more to it. I've been hiding as a man all of my life with all of the imposed responsibilities that people place on us. I didn't really want it, but accepted it as being part of me. Men do, sad to say, make a hell-of-a-lot more money than women in the same profession in most instances. Although men will never have a ''period'', I can understand how being a man does have it's benefits in a lot of other ways as well.
I wish you well, and I am glad that you are who you want to be. It's nice to be free.

CaptLex

01-09-2007, 10:44 PM

MTFs NEED support from intentionally formed CD communities/groups because men's social and professional heirarchies discourage them from supporting and tolerating CDs.
We all need support, Roberta. :thumbsup:

helenr

01-09-2007, 10:57 PM

I agree with the comments offered by other gurls, just want to add a thought or two. Customs so change-I was reading a book my wife was discarding-'Dress for Success for women' and being wound that way that I am, I looked up pantyhose and that lead to a brief section that women in a business setting must always wear dresses or skirts-not wear slacks and be a 'make believe man' or words to this effect. That was about 1970 writing. Now, as we know, GGs only wear dresses and sheer hose for weddings, funerals, maybe church for a special occasion. It seems to make it harder, ironically, for we transvestites who favor dresses, of course, but to blend in it is so hard to wear them. Ironic. we can't even wear what we are drawn to unless in a transgendered setting--a cute movie I saw -think it was 'Just like a woman'-at a party in London a GG said to another GG-that you could tell the TVs as they were the ones wearing dresses! best, helen

RobertaFermina

01-09-2007, 10:59 PM

I agree Captain. We're all here, aren't we? :gh:

And, I'm about those present, and those not present.

I'm conjecturing +? that a large population of FTM's (not present) have enough support and tolerance from women and society in-general to remain well connected in life - "not isolated".

If my suggestion is not correct, then I abandon my brainstorm to drift away and become a topical depression. :umbrella:

:heehee: Roberta

RobertaFermina

01-09-2007, 11:05 PM

If there are way more FTM's than we see in support groups, and they are feeling the need for support, then that is a lot of Joy and Self-Esteem that is NOT HAPPENING, and perhaps a lot of Misery that doesn't have to be so miserable.....

Sadly,

Roberta

wifeofsissy GG

01-09-2007, 11:30 PM

I think that the reason has a lot to do with the fact that women for the most part already crossdress, even if they don't know it so it is kind of a non isssue, where as men it is a serious no no for us to dawn make up and walk the streets in a skirt. You watch in 50 years or so I bet there will be 2 people in the m to f and 0 in the f to m, just my :2c:

I wouldn't say that woman "crossdress" already! I think that crossdressing goes further than wearing "clothes". If you ask a CD/TV why they are wearing woman's clothing/makeup etc , I think there answer will be alot different than asking the woman's why they are wearing jeans instead of skirts. M-F crossdress cause of the way they feel inside, the desire/urge they have to feel/be like a woman. I'm a GG and I wear jeans. I don't get up in the morning and say, today I'm wearing Jeans cause I feel like being a man. I don't know why there isn't as many F-M as M-F!! Maybe cause women rules!! LOL. Just kidding. :tongueout

Marla S

01-09-2007, 11:43 PM

I wouldn't say that woman "crossdress" already! I think that crossdressing goes further than wearing "clothes". If you ask a CD/TV why they are wearing woman's clothing/makeup etc , I think there answer will be alot different than asking the woman's why they are wearing jeans instead of skirts.
Though I am not of the opinion that a woman wearing pants today is crossdressing, please consider that the different quality of answers might have something to do with the different social situations.
Stronger repression requires different and "stronger" answers for justification and self-justification.
(For the one it might be enough to say it is more comfortable to wear pants, for the other "I have to want to be a woman to be allowed to wear a skirt" might just be enough.)

melissaK

01-09-2007, 11:47 PM

Hmmm. From "Transgender Emergence," Arlene Lev (2004) p. 13:

"Researchers and clinicians are beginnning to recognize areas of transgender expresion that had previously been underrecognized. Some examples include: the number of female to male transsexuals appear to be much higher than historically evident, including those who identify as gay males; . . . According to Cromwell (1999) female transgenderism is a complex phenomenon related to the historic invisibility of women's issues in general. [see pp. 72-74 for more in depth discussion]"

Lev goes on to set forth some of the same ideas already posted by some about f-t-m' shaving an easier time of cross dressing etc. than m-t-f's. But, I was married to a f-t-m and I'm not sure I buy that. It wasn't significantly easier for my ex- to deal with the internal feelings of wanting to be the opposite gender; but, she dealt with it better than I did and doesn't have to hang out on a board for support like I do. Is that a genetic sexually determined factor? Genetic females cope better? Well, I know better than to project my limited personal experiences on everyone.

Lev, at p. 38:

"According to the DSM IV-TR, approximately 1 per 30,000 adult physiological males and 1 per 100,000 adult physiological females seek SRS (Amer. Psych. Assoc., 2000, p. 579). . . . Statistics in the Netherlands, home of one of the most progressive gender clinics, are estimated to be approximately 1 per 12,000 males and 1 per 30,000 females (Bakker et al., 1993; Van Keternen, Gooren and Megens, 1996). . . . The accuracy or utility of these figures is open to debate, and it has been suggested that they represent figures a few decades old . . . " (And Lev has a VERY good discussion of numerous F-T-M roles in various socities world wide and through history, at pp. 57-67. Worth reading.)

But all that still begs the question of why more f-t-m's don't post. Too many rude insensitive m-t-f's? Reading the above posts I see some posts were pretty hard on anyone wanting to be a guy - hardly an accomodating attitude. They might well say the same thing about me wanting to be a woman. And even though I was married for 14 years to a wife who eventually came out as a f-t-m, I still can say insensitive things. So do the f-t-m's just find other boards without such a high m-t-f presence?

I for one am really really pleased these guys are here. Their two cents is often the most interesting point of view, and they are a breath of fresh air from some of the 100% m-t-f boards I have been on. If they weren't here, these boards would lack depth and richness.

Well that was a text booky boring post by me. But, Hugs anyway for those brave enough to grind through,

'lissa

Jere Oneil

01-09-2007, 11:53 PM

Personally, I don't understand. I do understand that some females might want to be males, or just take on a male appearance. But hasn't the fashion changes over the last 50 or so years made it nearly inpossible for a female to crossdress. Today, women wear pants much more often that dresses or skirts. Even the male business suit and tie is becoming accepted as female business attire. Perhaps in a hundred or so years or so, gender clothing will totally reverse, and a FTM can put on a dress and be crossdrressing because dresses and skirts will be male attire.

Robin Leigh

01-10-2007, 12:09 AM

Samantha B L

01-10-2007, 01:04 AM

I'm an M to F myself,but I think that it's possible that there's more F to M's out there than it would seem presently.Eventually there will be a time when this will be more noticable on sites like Crossdressers.Sooner or later.It does seem as if there is a slightly larger number of M to F's,but the F to M's will be more numerous and noticable in time.

Satrana

01-10-2007, 01:20 AM

I'm a GG and I wear jeans. I don't get up in the morning and say, today I'm wearing Jeans cause I feel like being a man.

If we lived in a world where men wearing skirts was completely normal, if I got up and decided to wear a skirt today, I would not have to think about it either. I would just do it because I felt like it. I would not need to reason to myself that I wanted to feel like a woman.

If you lived 50 years ago you would not have the social freedom to wear jeans thus you would have to give the idea of putting on jeans some serious thought and would need a justification to break the social taboo.

You don't see what you do as crossdressing because of this different context which means you have never had to think about why you wanted to wear jeans and not a skirt. You just do as you feel.

This is true for all of us who simply enact large numbers of behaviors because we have learned this is normal and acceptable. For example why do we feel it is normal to shake hands when meeting others and not bow like the Japanese or rub noses like Eskimos etc. We all blindly follow our social norms without wondering why we do the things we do. Only when we want to do something that is contrary to our social norms do we stop to think and seek justifications.

Crossdressers do not want to be actual women (excluding transsexuals), however they need to feel like a woman in order to bypass the social taboos on men displaying any feminine attributes. It is an internal mental block. I feel incapable of expressing my feminine side as a man but can do so if I present as a woman. Crossdressing gives me "permission" to express femininity which is otherwise forbidden to me as a man.

RobertaFermina

01-10-2007, 01:30 AM

[snip]
But all that still begs the question of why more f-t-m's don't post. Too many rude insensitive m-t-f's? Reading the above posts I see some posts were pretty hard on anyone wanting to be a guy - hardly an accomodating attitude. They might well say the same thing about me wanting to be a woman. And even though I was married for 14 years to a wife who eventually came out as a f-t-m, I still can say insensitive things. So do the f-t-m's just find other boards without such a high m-t-f presence?
[snip]
'lissa

This reminds me of my Food Addiction 12-step program. The overwhelming majority of members are overeaters who (want to ) return to a lower, healthy (BMI) weight in the course of obtaining sobriety.

The tendency is for me (an overeatar) and others to take for granted that the audience is filled with overeaters. We speak to our desire to "eat less", and "not eat" when emotionally challenged.

This can be dismissive of anorexics, and sugar-addicts in the audience. Some of them may not feel like they are in the right place, or like they belong, and may drift away.

This is in spite of the fact that our literature is inclusive of all people with any "craziness" around food (over/under eater, sugar addicts, bulimics, etc.)

Could something like this be happening here?

+? Roberta

Delila

01-10-2007, 01:47 AM

From everything that I have read statistically there really are more m2f then f2m cders. I think that one of the reasons for this which has already been stated is that women wear mens clothes all of the time so it seems fewer of them are true crossdressers. Additionally you hear from more male to female cders because society is so much less accepting of us so we need so much more support. Then there is always the popular opinion of "why would anyone want to be male when being female is so much more glamorous and sexy." I'm sure that I am wrong on this point but I do know that if you read any studies there are many many fewer m2f then f2m.

Tanya83

01-10-2007, 02:05 AM

Because girls get to wear nicer shoes! And pantyhose :heehee:

Satrana

01-10-2007, 02:21 AM

I think that one of the reasons for this which has already been stated is that women wear mens clothes all of the time so it seems fewer of them are true crossdressers.

Ahhh...but define what a true crossdresser is. I can think of a dozen different reasons MTF crossdressers have expressed as their own individual reason for doing so. So there is no way to define what a crossdresser is except as a technical description of wearing the clothes of the opposite gender, which leads nowhere since all women wear masculine clothes these days.

This means it is up to the individual to decide whether he/she is a crossdresser which means they have to be able to identify themselves what they are doing. I am sure there are many FTM crossdressers who do not identify as such because it falls within today's acceptable standards for women even though from our viewpoint they display common signs of crossdressing.

Tina Dixon

01-10-2007, 06:06 AM

You are very wise, Red!
I only got that way Cap by getting to know you guys and reading your forum at times.

biggirlsarah

01-10-2007, 06:36 AM

Maybe it is because we are chemically altered females anyway , but I do agree that the choice of clothes shoe's etc is so much greater , and the female has a much greater level of self expression .

CaptLex

01-10-2007, 11:17 AM

I'm conjecturing +? that a large population of FTM's (not present) have enough support and tolerance from women and society in-general to remain well connected in life - "not isolated". If my suggestion is not correct, then I abandon my brainstorm to drift away and become a topical depression. :umbrella:
Unfortunately, there are many FtMs out there that are very isolated and don't have a clue where to turn for support. I know because I meet new ones all the time (in person and online) when they come to places like this one or to my support group and the first thing they say is, "I thought I was the only one like me". I can only imagine from the ones I do meet, how many more are out there that are still isolated.

If there are way more FTM's than we see in support groups, and they are feeling the need for support, then that is a lot of Joy and Self-Esteem that is NOT HAPPENING, and perhaps a lot of Misery that doesn't have to be so miserable.....
You said it. :(

Could something like this be happening here?
You hit the nail on the head, Roberta. It does happen here. Some people are so much into their own situation that they can't get their heads around the thought that some of us are in a different place, i.e.,we may want penises instead of breasts, we may like having facial hair, etc. We don't judge those who feel the opposite of what we do, and we ask for the same non-judgment in return.

But all that still begs the question of why more f-t-m's don't post. Too many rude insensitive m-t-f's? Reading the above posts I see some posts were pretty hard on anyone wanting to be a guy - hardly an accomodating attitude. They might well say the same thing about me wanting to be a woman. And even though I was married for 14 years to a wife who eventually came out as a f-t-m, I still can say insensitive things. So do the f-t-m's just find other boards without such a high m-t-f presence?
We really don't have much of a choice in this matter since there really aren't many places for us, otherwise I know some of the guys wouldn't be here at all. So we try to make this work, and we appreciate all of you that make us feel welcome and understand that we're really not that different from you.

As for the statistics you quoted, I have no doubt that they're not only outdated, but were probably not very accurate at the time these studies were done because of the amount of FtMs that were not (and are still not) out. It wasn't too long ago we were considered a myth and the "experts" didn't believe we existed at all. So, if a person born female begins to feel that something is different and tries to find someone to talk to about it only to be told that there is no such thing, how do you think that makes that person feel? Even now some info is completely wrong as I recently learned that in some parts of this country an FtM is not allowed to transition if he's attracted to men and not women.

I for one am really really pleased these guys are here. Their two cents is often the most interesting point of view, and they are a breath of fresh air from some of the 100% m-t-f boards I have been on. If they weren't here, these boards would lack depth and richness.
Awww . . . you're so sweet . . . :hugs:

Additionally you hear from more male to female cders because society is so much less accepting of us so we need so much more support. Then there is always the popular opinion of "why would anyone want to be male when being female is so much more glamorous and sexy." I'm sure that I am wrong on this point but I do know that if you read any studies there are many many fewer m2f then f2m.
I don't think society is generally more accepting of us, I think it's that we blend into society (whether we want to or not) so they don't really notice us - not the same thing. Actually, this makes it harder for us to let people know we're here. As to the "popular opinion of why would anyone want to be male" . . . let me count the ways.

I only got that way Cap by getting to know you guys and reading your forum at times.
I wish everyone would come on over for at least a day and get to know us better - I think we would all benefit from it. Remember, the door is always open, just wipe your feet first. :tongueout

pocoyo

01-10-2007, 11:28 AM

Oooh this thread's picking up with some great stuff now! Liking it...

I'm conjecturing +? that a large population of FTM's (not present) have enough support and tolerance from women and society in-general to remain well connected in life - "not isolated".

I'm sad to say that actually, being FTM (as in the transexual/gender confused sort) is pretty difficult and it's really really hard to find support.
There are lots of mtf resources but not many ftm ones. When phoning a trans helpline for instance, I'm quite a novelty as they are so used to mtf's.

As for support from women & society... well if I'm anything to go by, a lot of FTM's just keep it a secret because they don't even know there's anyone else like them out there (although I did suspect there must be). I felt a little ashamed though (although inside I did know there was nothing bad about what I was doing). I knew that others would think I was strange and would not understand. And they didn't.

When dressing boyishly when a little younger (and didn't know about other transmen), I got called a lesbian (in a horrible way, and even though I am not one). And "weird" and "freak" and got bullied. Even pushed around by boys who were saying "lesbians are meant to be hard aren't they? Come on then... let's have a fight..." and sometimes I would fight and stick up for myself, because I am a boy, and because I am tough. Funnily enough I am about as far from a lesbian as you can get. I see myself as a gay man. At school I even got spat on.
I didn't have support from anyone for ages. Eventually I got a counsellor and he suggested I reach out to others like me, which is why I came here :happy:
That is cutting a long story short.
Please don't ever think that being (any sort of trangendered) FTM is easy. Because I promise you, it isn't.

:thinking:.... perhaps it's not a case of why so few ftms compared to mtfs... it's just that most of the ftm's here are transexual, wheras a large proportion of the mtfs are crossdressers. Probably largely due to the previously stated fact that a man is "crossdressing" by wearing just one feminine garment, wheras a woman isn't deemed as crossdressing unless she is nearing transexual.) Especially as there are a lot of unisex clothes now which are largely more male-looking.

Maybe the real question is... why so many crossdressers and so few transexual?

Maybe it's not that FTMs and MTF's are so different... perhaps it's that crossdressers and transexual are different (although naturally they overlap). Perhaps we shouldn't be "divided" by our mtf/ftmness but by our particular transgender status.

But whatever, I think that all of us transgender folk (whether a mild crossdresser, a crossdresser, genderqueer, transexual etc etc, any one of the many things throughout that huge and amazing spectrum,) are comrades, and should be united by a respect for each other and people's individual transgenderism.

CaptLex

01-10-2007, 11:30 AM

There is another reason for the difference in numbers that hasn't been mentioned yet in this thread. For many MTFs crossdressing is primarily an erotic activity (or at least it started that way). That doesn't seem to be the case with the FTMs.

Now I'm not saying that there are no erotic aspects to the FTM experience. Far from it! Just that they are doing this to express their gender identity, whether they be TS or not. Whereas there are plenty of MTFs that identify as males and don't ever think of themselves as females.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are plenty of FTMs that identify as TG, but very few who would think of themselves as fetishistic transvestites.

I'd love to hear what the FTM blokes have to say about these ideas.

:hugs:

Robin
Oops, almost forgot I wanted to address this too . . .

You're absolutely right, Robin. There's a lot less of a sexual connection to crossdresing for FtMs than there is for MtFs (not that there's anything wrong with that). I won't say it doesn't exist at all, but I think it's very rare. It's almost always about gender identity and expression.

Marla S

01-10-2007, 11:48 AM

@pocoyo and CaptLex
Enlightening posts. Can't coment on everything, but they definitively make me think, which might end up changing my view here and there (not the worst that can happen ;)).

Oops, almost forgot I wanted to address this too . . .

You're absolutely right, Robin. There's a lot less of a sexual connection to crossdresing for FtMs than there is for MtFs (not that there's anything wrong with that). I won't say it doesn't exist at all, but I think it's very rare. It's almost always about gender identity and expression.
Would be interesting to discuss this a bit more in detail, because a recent report on male and female sexuality made me think that this might not only be due to the hormones, but also due to the physical function.
But's probably not the right place here to do.

CaptLex

01-10-2007, 12:34 PM

Would be interesting to discuss this a bit more in detail, because a recent report on male and female sexuality made me think that this might not only be due to the hormones, but also due to the physical function. But's probably not the right place here to do.
Start a new thread for it, Marla - and pray that people keep it clean so we can discuss it without it getting locked. :p

Stacy GG

01-10-2007, 12:58 PM

I don't think society is generally more accepting of us, I think it's that we blend into society (whether we want to or not) so they don't really notice us - not the same thing. Actually, this makes it harder for us to let people know we're here.

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread but this comments sparked a few thoughts for me. I work with a couple lesbians at my work ( though I think one may really be a FTM). I think because they all dress down, ( don't wear makeup, hair is scraggely..etc) they are automatically thought of as lesbians, though I know the one girl talks about having a penis once in a while.
I think for her it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FTM, because everyone is ok with that. It's much easier to be in a territory that everyone has accepted for a while, than to try and branch out and announce I'm a FTM. I may be wrong about that but it's just my :2c:

Kieron Andrew

01-10-2007, 01:01 PM

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread but this comments sparked a few thoughts for me. I work with a couple lesbians at my work ( though I think one may really be a FTM). I think because they all dress down, ( don't wear makeup, hair is scraggely..etc) they are automatically thought of as lesbians, though I know the one girl talks about having a penis once in a while.
I think for her it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FTM, because everyone is ok with that. It's much easier to be in a territory that everyone has accepted for a while, than to try and branch out and announce I'm a FTM. I may be wrong about that but it's just my :2c:
Thats exactly what i did for years, everyone saw me as a lesbian........until one day, i found a support forum purely by accident 2 years ago, which was predominantly an mtf forum, at that time i didn't know any existed and up until recently didn't know ftm boards were out there until i came across this one

CaptLex

01-10-2007, 01:08 PM

Sorry to jump in so late on this thread but this comments sparked a few thoughts for me. I work with a couple lesbians at my work . . . they are automatically thought of as lesbians, though I know the one girl talks about having a penis once in a while.

I think for her it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FTM, because everyone is ok with that. It's much easier to be in a territory that everyone has accepted for a while, than to try and branch out and announce I'm a FTM. I may be wrong about that but it's just my :2c:

Never too late to jump in, Stacy. You're right that most people automatically assume all masculine women are butch lesbians (even they do sometimes), which also makes it harder for those of us who don't identify as lesbians to be visible. And I think many FtMs who are or have been part of the lesbian community find it harder to transition (if they're so inclined) because of the negative feedback some get from that community, so your comment: "it might be easier to just accept being a 'lesbian' than being a FtM" is very true.

Marla S

01-10-2007, 02:45 PM

Start a new thread for it, Marla - and pray that people keep it clean so we can discuss it without it getting locked. :p
Here it is (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=700901#post700901) and I hope it will stay clean. But maybe it is less dramatic and spectacular than I thought.

melissaK

01-10-2007, 06:32 PM

On the subject of reporting differences between mtf and ftm, and the suspected under-reporting of the ftm's, I came across this article courtesy another MTF board about reporting differences between gg and gm on depression. Traditionally gg's report depression much much more often than gmen. Now, they think its really about the same. Social role differences distort the identification of the problem.

http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=31861

So, 'Lissa what exactly is the belabored oxymoronic point you are trying to make?

My point, oh impatient one, is this:

"We are still learning about the many differences between F's and M's that hide their similarities." :heehee:

Maggie Kay

01-10-2007, 07:14 PM

Consider that when women dress to be attractive we all know what that means. Attract men. Women are the embodiment of sexuality. Sexy attire shows off their features to the male who is programmed visually to respond. Does a male know how to dress to attract women? Most don't know what women are attracted to at all. What can he wear to get the female to notice? I'm certain that there is something. It is said that military uniforms did it in the past. If males dress in ways that signal other males in ways that women do, we notice. It just doesn't happen the other way around. This is the one way street of crossdressing. If, for example, a male dresses in women's clothes that are basically women's cuts of male styles, is he crossdressing?

Angela E.

01-10-2007, 07:28 PM

Maybe it is because we are chemically altered females anyway , but I do agree that the choice of clothes shoe's etc is so much greater , and the female has a much greater level of self expression .

Maybe without knowing it.We all start out as female in the womb.I think testosterone doesn`t imprint as it should, to varying degrees,in people like us, hence transgenderism.-Angela.:bunny: :bunny: :bunny: :be: :bunny: :bunny: :bunny:

Casey Morgan

01-10-2007, 08:05 PM

I must be missing something, but I don't get the argument that women already wear traditionally men's clothes so it isn't considered crossdressing.

The only thing you're missing is the failure to get the point that you understand. In other words, you aren't missing anything. Intent is king (or in our [MTF] case, queen).

SlenderGurl

01-10-2007, 08:28 PM

I thought I'd get an education when I posed my question, and I did. But it's clear that even really well thought out MTFs here don't all concur about [U]why[U] there are so many more MTFs than FTMs.

I have a couple more thoughts of my own:

Our GG poster is absolutely right when she says that a woman who gets into jeans all the time is NOT a FTM crossdresser, because most are NOT intent on feeling like a man. In fact, just look at the incredible array of jeans fashions, all directed at women. And of course many want to wear their jeans very, very tight -- to highlight their feminine shapes.

The sexual gratification aspect is definitely a driver for many if not most MTFs, particularly when they're younger -- and the testosterone level is highest, not coincidentally. But are FTMs getting direct sexual gratification of some kind from wearing mens' clothes? Certainly ordinary women who get up and go to school or work wearing traditionally male clothes (e.g. pants, T shirt) aren't!

BTW, I have a brand new burning question that I can't wait to pose for this distinguished and wonderfully articulate panel!

CaptLex

01-10-2007, 08:40 PM

The sexual gratification aspect is definitely a driver for many if not most MTFs, particularly when they're younger -- and the testosterone level is highest, not coincidentally. But are FTMs getting direct sexual gratification of some kind from wearing mens' clothes? Certainly ordinary women who get up and go to school or work wearing traditionally male clothes (e.g. pants, T shirt) aren't
I think we covered this (posts #38 and #49), which led to Marla starting a new post about the differences between male and female sexuality.

CaptLex

01-10-2007, 08:46 PM

We agree I think. My post was poorly worded. What I don't understand is people using the fact that women wear traditionally men's clothes already as a reason for there being fewer F-M's.
If I understand your question correctly . . . the reason is that many women wear the clothes because they like the clothes and are comfortable in them (same reason why some men crossdress), not because of gender issues, which makes those of us who wear male-styled clothing because of gender issues more invisible.

Men who wear women's clothes for non-gender reasons still stand out, however, and are not invisible like some of us. Does that make sense?

Billie2day

01-10-2007, 09:06 PM

There have been many answers to the lack of numbers in the f to m members.
One of the reasons I cd is stress relief my job now and when I was in the corp world involved making desisions all the time. Traditionally men were the decision makers and woman were guided through life by her husband, father ect. Men were also in control, the higher the position the more people they controled. Hence stress is much higher in men. Results, higher rate of heart attacts, high blood press. alcoholism ect. It is no wonder that large numbers of them bounced to the other end of the scale for stress relief. This is reflected in the comments by the f to m members in the theads. The number of influential men who are submissives in the B & D and cross dressing areas is very high.. (I am having a time trying to explain this but I will push on.) Today there is a much higher portion of gg in positions of power and influence. where will they go for stress relief?
the bar, drugs. poor things they do not have the harmless activity of cding.
I suspect they too will take the avenue of less stress go home and let the husband make the desitions, get dressed up and have a girls night out, go shopping, worry they becoming to much like the men they work with or boss.
or go to a beauty outlet and be pampered. We are both alike in this way and in a roundabout way that is why there is more M to F members than F to M. Billie

Casey Morgan

01-10-2007, 09:16 PM

We agree I think.

Sorry, that read better in my head. We do agree. No, the "problem" is that you get that it's about intent, which is why you don't get that arguement.

Ooof, it's too late at night for me to keep thinking. Brain. Shutting. Down.

Robin Leigh

01-10-2007, 11:48 PM

Oooh this thread's picking up with some great stuff now! Liking it...

Maybe the real question is... why so many crossdressers and so few transexual?
Maybe. If we follow the "hormonal wash" theory, that could be explained if a little bit of feminization will result in a boy being TG enough to CD, but it takes higher levels of estrogen at the right times to create the full "woman in a man's body" syndrome that most MTF TS people have.

Maybe it's not that FTMs and MTF's are so different... perhaps it's that crossdressers and transexual are different (although naturally they overlap). Perhaps we shouldn't be "divided" by our mtf/ftmness but by our particular transgender status.
Yes, adding all the "garden-variety" MTF CDers to the TS numbers skews the statistics.

But whatever, I think that all of us transgender folk (whether a mild crossdresser, a crossdresser, genderqueer, transexual etc etc, any one of the many things throughout that huge and amazing spectrum,) are comrades, and should be united by a respect for each other and people's individual transgenderism. Definitely, Pocoyo!

Oops, almost forgot I wanted to address this too . . .

You're absolutely right, Robin. There's a lot less of a sexual connection to crossdresing for FtMs than there is for MtFs (not that there's anything wrong with that). I won't say it doesn't exist at all, but I think it's very rare. It's almost always about gender identity and expression.
Thanks for the confirmation, Captain!

Would be interesting to discuss this a bit more in detail, because a recent report on male and female sexuality made me think that this might not only be due to the hormones, but also due to the physical function.I tend to agree, Marla, and will expand on this in your new thread.

:hugs:

Robin

Jere Oneil

01-11-2007, 11:22 AM

I must be missing something, but I don't get the argument that women already wear traditionally men's clothes so it isn't considered crossdressing.

Of course it isn't. Otherwise, every woman I know would be CD.

From my perspective as a MTF CD (and I would guess many others) it goes far beyond the clothing. The clothing is only an outward expression of trying to be feminine. That's why most of us adopt feminine names. If women traditionally wore pants and men skirts, I'd want to wear pants I'm sure.

I guess that what I was trying to say is that since women now wear men's things as a matter of course, it would be difficult for a woman to ever be perceived by others as a crossdresser, unless,she told them or something. I actually think it takes away from the overall experience for them. I would think that MTFs wouldn't enjoy it as much if skirts and dresses became part of a man's everyday wardrobe either. Maybe, this would make a good topic for discussion.

Marla S

01-11-2007, 12:03 PM

I must be missing something, but I don't get the argument that women already wear traditionally men's clothes so it isn't considered crossdressing.
The point you missed is "traditionally".

Tradition and history doesn't count. Something is CDing if it is CDing now, here, today. The actual connotation of clothes is what counts and not the connotation of the past.
Pants are today accepted as women's wear and are labeld as such (before that, it has been crossdressing).

If tomorrow seamed stockings become acceptable for men, I am sorry to say, you are not a crossdresser anymore. You have to watch out for something else that is not accepted for men yet, if you still want to be one, you have to buy the clothes by the label "women's wear".

CaptLex

01-11-2007, 12:45 PM

It doesn't explain why there are so few FTM's on this board. Or to take it a step further, why many more men undergo sex changes than women.
Well, some of the reasons for less FtMs on this board is that it's a one-in-a-million site, whereas MtF sites are closer to a dime-a-dozen. In other words, hard to find . . . hard to believe it exists. Another reason is because when I (just using me for an example) told anyone that I was more comfortable in pants, short hair, flat shoes (and love ties) and very uncomfortable in skirts, heels and long hair, people would say stuff like, "That's okay, honey, that doesn't make you different. Just wear what you like." So, I didn't realize just how different I really was for a while. I know that may sound like the ideal comment to those of you who get flak for crossdressing, but it really does hinder awareness of TG issues.

As for your comment that "more men undergo sex changes than women". If you're referring to SRS, the reason for that is that medical science is nowhere near giving us what we really need. If you're referring to lesser changes, I'd say the numbers are a lot higher than you may think.

CaptLex

01-11-2007, 12:47 PM

I guess that what I was trying to say is that since women now wear men's things as a matter of course, it would be difficult for a woman to ever be perceived by others as a crossdresser, unless,she told them or something. I actually think it takes away from the overall experience for them.
Yup, I agree.

I would think that MTFs wouldn't enjoy it as much if skirts and dresses became part of a man's everyday wardrobe either. Maybe, this would make a good topic for discussion.
Give it a shot - start a new thread about whether men would still wear skirts if it was no longer considered crossdressing. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but we have new members and new info everyday.

janedoe311

01-11-2007, 01:13 PM

We are all HALF female, Men XY and woman XX. Once the ovaries develop in the first few months after conception, it depended on the hormones they make and how much that determines the brain “sex”. Too much testosterone or other male hormones) in a XX , and you can masculinize a girl. Too much growth hormones can masculinize also.

Not enough testosterone or too much female hormones in a XY baby and you will feminize the brain and or body.

(In lab test if they remove the testicles in a baby rats it behaves like a female its life, without female hormones! So it seems that we are by default female! It takes male hormones at the right time to make a boy brain.)

It is now believed that without the “burst” of male hormones at the right time the brain and some of the body will “Stay” female.

Then there is the XXY, XXXY and varations. It is probally alot more common in transexuals than thought because it is expensive to have the test. Tula is XXY and had to fight in UK court to be excepted (papers changed legally) as a woman despite the proven intersexed "birth defect".

(I seem to remember she said when she got SRS they found partially developed ovaries in her! Despite this the religious and the Pope, still say that it is wrong to have a sex change and it is just a mental problem!

Next the social reasons. It was mentioned that women cross-dress all the time, they are more passable, a false beard will cover up that female face. They can have male jobs as managers and be aggressive, (get out their male side).

No one gives a butch dike in short hair and male clothes a second look on the street. But a man in a skirt (with taste) or even a kilt will get looks and giggles, threats and hostility and even be turned down for service in restaurants.

Not to say FTM do not have their problems but they can pass easier and that is half of the battle to be accepted and to get that release that we need.

Also what the mother does to herself will change it. Pregnant women were given hormones during pregnancy to "help it". Also alcohol,drugs, coffee, smoking was not the taboo it is today. My mother no doubt smoked, drank wine and coffee and no doubt took aspirin during her pregnancy, so we are all messed up.

So it seems that a male could be seen as a birth defect since things have to be perfect to get a male!